ICE

DefinitelyNotShazbot

They work with ICE so maybe they away you and steal your car and freeze your accounts

MistahFinch

Tbh I know like 4 people who stopped because of them letting ICE into their factories, so yes? I just stopped in general

Oprlt94

My vote is on the SEC, ICE, FBI, CIA and other GVT-related stock... The Mar-a-Lagos will outperform any stock by miles..

borat_he_like_you

Palantir develops software called ImmigrationOS, for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) to track, identify, and deport noncitizens. These systems integrate data from various government and private databases to create detailed profiles for enforcement actions.

moose2mouse

ICE is going to track us down and give us gender surgery

TheCuriousBread

Charts examined so you can check my work. Perhaps you will come to a different conclusion. The setup: Real Disposable Personal Income vs. Consumer Sentiment (The "Great Disconnect") Total Money Market Funds (The "Cash on the Sidelines") Why We Haven't Crashed: Household Debt Service Payments as a Percent of Disposable Personal Income (Short Term View) Household Debt Service Payments as a Percent of Disposable Personal Income (Long Term View) ICE BofA US High Yield Index Option-Adjusted Spread (Corporate Credit Health) The "Fragility" Signals: Personal Saving Rate (Consumer Exhaustion) Delinquency Rate on Credit Card Loans (Marginal Stress) 10-Year Treasury Minus 2-Year Treasury Yield Spread (Recession Signal) Is Spending Stopping: Advance Retail Sales: Retail Trade and Food Services (Consumption Trend) Light Weight Vehicle Sales (Big Ticket Purchases) The Labor Market: Real-time Sahm Rule Recession Indicator (Unemployment Momentum) Unemployment Level (Absolute Joblessness) Job Openings: Total Nonfarm (Labor Demand/JOLTS)

TheCuriousBread

Charts examined so you can check my work. The setup: Real Disposable Personal Income vs. Consumer Sentiment (The "Great Disconnect") Total Money Market Funds (The "Cash on the Sidelines") Why We Haven't Crashed: Household Debt Service Payments as a Percent of Disposable Personal Income (Short Term View) Household Debt Service Payments as a Percent of Disposable Personal Income (Long Term View) ICE BofA US High Yield Index Option-Adjusted Spread (Corporate Credit Health) The "Fragility" Signals: Personal Saving Rate (Consumer Exhaustion) Delinquency Rate on Credit Card Loans (Marginal Stress) 10-Year Treasury Minus 2-Year Treasury Yield Spread (Recession Signal) Is Spending Stopping: Advance Retail Sales: Retail Trade and Food Services (Consumption Trend) Light Weight Vehicle Sales (Big Ticket Purchases) The Labor Market: Real-time Sahm Rule Recession Indicator (Unemployment Momentum) Unemployment Level (Absolute Joblessness) Job Openings: Total Nonfarm (Labor Demand/JOLTS)

TheCuriousBread

Charts examined so you can check my work. The setup: Real Disposable Personal Income vs. Consumer Sentiment (The "Great Disconnect") Total Money Market Funds (The "Cash on the Sidelines") Why We Haven't Crashed: Household Debt Service Payments as a Percent of Disposable Personal Income (Short Term View) Household Debt Service Payments as a Percent of Disposable Personal Income (Long Term View) ICE BofA US High Yield Index Option-Adjusted Spread (Corporate Credit Health) The "Fragility" Signals: Personal Saving Rate (Consumer Exhaustion) Delinquency Rate on Credit Card Loans (Marginal Stress) 10-Year Treasury Minus 2-Year Treasury Yield Spread (Recession Signal) Is Spending Stopping: Advance Retail Sales: Retail Trade and Food Services (Consumption Trend) Light Weight Vehicle Sales (Big Ticket Purchases) The Labor Market: Real-time Sahm Rule Recession Indicator (Unemployment Momentum) Unemployment Level (Absolute Joblessness) Job Openings: Total Nonfarm (Labor Demand/JOLTS)

90daysismytherapy

reread the post i responded too, the call themselves rational in the first two sentences before explaining how trumps behavior was unexpected. Honestly, nothing he has done so far this term is more insane than like 5 things from term one, like the Muslim ban, impeachment for making an official call to a foreign country that he should know is recorded, to blackmail that country into giving him political gossip to harm his own political rival in Biden, to his insane reactions to Covid, followed by his insane attacks on voting and the belief in US elections with zero proof, to eventually leading a mob to attack the Capitol and refused to call off said mob for several hours. But people are surprised he would have ICE go ham or have stupid economic ideas? What are any of you guys talking about?

Precedex7891

“I'm saying this because I feel the chaos that will ensue is going to be detrimental to the country at the end of the day.” Brah, the country is already pretty chaotic for the last 11 months. (ICE, thousands of unemployed fed employees due to multi agency shutdowns, unqualified heads of departments commanding with zero experience, and don’t get me started with POTUS). What is observable though is that I still get up in the morning and go to work because the family needs to survive. The economy keeps chugging along. Again, tariffs are paid by consumers…we already paid. Are we expecting anything back? Hell naw!

jalans

ICE is buying a lot of automobiles on top of their other unholy expenditures.

BaxBaxPop

Fortunately EV's have a much, much lower risk of fire than ICE cars.

Hypo_E

Lots of projected EV demand is changing to hybrids, which require even larger cats than ICE vehicles since they have to achieve the same efficiency when cold (because hybrids will often turn the ICE on/off intermittently and may not keep the cat warm enough that it's in its optimal operating window).

sock_express34

Found a new ICE recruit

BB63_Htown

OMG at the quote "with it's core Business collapsing " click bait. With the downturn of the EV industry since the credits have expired Tesla has actually risen to over 50 plus percent in market share. Therefore the long-term outlook for Tesla looks very good since other auto manufacturers are scaling back. As more and more people realize the amazing experience that electric vehicles offer, they will change. In my small part of the world many of my pro ICE high power hot rod type guys after 6 years of my ownership are starting to consider a Tesla. There's just so much good that outweighs anything bad. With that said, give it 10 more years and you will be very sorry for saying it's core business is collapsing. With that said, Tesla's energy department as well as its robotics and lastly it's taxi services should far out pace the vehicle sales. But then what is Tesla's core Business today? I would say it's energy.

boomerhs77

Some restaurants have been severely hurt due to ICE activity but many more are hurting due to tariff related cost issues. Spoke to one owner restaurant last week who said their business is significantly down. They had to raise some prices and are absorbing some of the tariff costs but won’t be able to for long.

lollypop002

He wasn’t expecting ICE to be in the way. Only blackice never white ice

Jeeperg84

Did Santa get deported by ICE?

oncwonk

I left Spotify after hearing ICE recruitment advertisements bring aired. So 1 less free user Puts it is.

Sensitive_Pilot3689

Got a BEARRORIST here! ICE! Send him to Djibouti

mk235176

Too bad, Santa gets detained by ICE

VesusFuckingChrist

is this parody? i want to respond but it feels like you’re just doing a bit now 1) nobody actually cares, we already know the CIA is bad 2) he’s not addressing illegal immigration in any sort of rational sense. he’s just making government bigger and giving ICE carte blanche to harass people, including citizens. if you cared about big government, this would bother you greatly. 3) the trump administration is full of unqualified hires. don’t pretend you care about “people being granted jobs based on their abilities and nothing else”

AbsorbingTax

ICE...this guy right here...his autocorrect speaks Spanish.

Impressive-Joke-3119

They should have it open for one hour, and the only direction allowed is either up or down and theta gang should be deported to Somalia by ICE.

Psyclist80

The real reason we're shifting back to ICE, to reduce reliance on China. Let capacity build in North America. Better start playing nice with Canada.

foolmetwiceagain

Damn AI slop! Stock crypto Trump Kylie Jenner inflation Ukraine look at this TikTok of a hot girl giving dating tips Joe Rogan ICE. Hoping that triggers all the keywords

CardiologistEqual336

Most of them were already deported by ICE 😎

DonDiabloTheGreat

Fuck, if they were that loud I couldn’t give a shit as well. ICE, Firefighters, FBI, I’d use whatever excuse to shut those losers down. But otherwise most Mexicans are cool. It’s the chicanos that are annoying as hell, homes.

Ok_Cry7572

DOORDASHING A SINGLE ICE CREAM CONE FROM CHICK-FIL-A IS CRAZY WORK A woman films a single ice cream cone sitting on the pickup shelf waiting to be DoorDashed to someone’s house How dumb you gotta be to order that?😂😂

Ancient_Sort5820

My ghetto (partially) illegal mexican neighbors across the street have unbelievably loud parties in their front yard a few times a month. Music so loud it literally rattles the cutlery in my drawer. Theyre out there wooping and hollering, throwing beer bottles, mag dumping. Literally multiple times per month. I call the police and nothing ever happens becuase in Dallas you pay high taxes but nothing ever happens. Anyways i submitted a tip to ICE.

anthonyjh21

ICE is capitulating (Ford lightning nerfed), Tesla is even less of a car company than it was before and the market is pricing it in.

bearhunter429

#all ber will be deported by ICE on monday LMAO🤌

DeuceGnarly

Right on - ICE this mother fucker

bearhunter429

#My neighbor was a ber so I reported him to ICE. Just saw them take him away in handcuffs and his wife is crying. LMAO🤌

bearhunter429

#Ber will get deported by ICE over the weekend LMAO🤌

SpicyPanda27

Just in: Santa detained by ICE at U.S. Border. Faces extradition back to Venezuela. Santa rally is cancelled.

astroslostmadethis

>ICE Says U.S. Citizen's Birth Certificate Is Fake After Arresting Her: Attorneys >“They’re denying that any of her birth certificates, which are from Laurel, Maryland, her records of immunization, medical records — they’re denying the authenticity of them. It is something I’ve never encountered.” -Zachary Perez, attorney for Dulce Consuelo Diaz Morales Calls. They are simply making room for the "Gold cards" that'll be coming through.

Heidruns_Herdsman

If you get sick you can call ICE on yourself and get deported to a country with cheaper healthcare.

Angus-420

I hope that all these ICE thugs, trump officials, and the man himself face prison time. Highly doubt any of them do, though. Maybe the ice thugs will since they’re not wealthy.

OpeDefinitely

nah fuck ICE. you just threaten it if she doesn't fuck off.

BlackKnightsOptions

Nowadays if I get sick of her I can just call ICE right

Micheal_Hancho

HE STOLE YOUR ICE CREAM! ARE YOU GONNA LET HIM GET AWAY WITH IT! hey that's my ice cream 🤓 GOOD SPONGEBOB, NOW LET HIM HAVE IT!! 😈 you can have it 🤓 🤦‍♂️

AGener0usGod

/ICE .. This guy right here

carl_salem

Most public analysis is reflexive—it reacts to the same lagging government data (CPI, NFP, GDP) using the same basic frameworks. Ignore this completely, its just noise and heavily controlled narratives. To develop a differentiated view, use the four pillars of "Macro Edge". * **Growth**: Analysis of economic expansion and key drivers such as AI-driven capital expenditure or policy shifts like tariffs. * **Inflation**: Assessment of inflationary pressures within the economy, considering factors such as policy shifts and the actions of central banks like the Federal Reserve. * **Risk Premia**: Evaluation of volatility and asset allocation in uncertain environments. * **Flows**: Examination of how major capital flows and corporate actions (e.g., buybacks) shape the direction of the market.  You'll want to monitor: **TGA & RRP:** Track the Treasury General Account and the Reverse Repo Facility. When the TGA drains, it injects liquidity into the system; when it refills, it sucks liquidity out. **Real-Time Liquidity Proxies:** Watch the **SOFR (Secured Overnight Financing Rate)** and credit spreads (like the **ICE BofA US High Yield Index Option-Adjusted Spread**). Divergence here often signals stress weeks before it shows up in official growth data. **The Eurodollar Market:** This is the "shadow" global banking system. Spreads in Eurodollar futures can indicate global dollar shortages that the Fed hasn't yet acknowledged. **Truflation** / **Turnleaf Analytics** for Real-Time Inflation data **LinkUp** / **Indeed Hiring Lab** for labor statistics **Freightos Baltic Index** Real-time container shipping rates. Monitor them for any sharp drop which often precedes a collapse in goods-based inflation. \--- Predictive markets and primary sources are surprisingly more accurate than bank analysts who are incentivized to stick to certain narratives. * **Prediction Markets:** Sites like **Kalshi** or **Polymarket** force participants to "put their money where their mouth is" regarding Fed moves or GDP prints. When these odds diverge significantly from "Expert Consensus," pay attention. * **Primary Source "Diffing":** Instead of reading a summary of the Fed Minutes, use an ai tool to "diff" (compare) the text of the new minutes against the previous ones. Changes in specific words (e.g., changing "substantial" to "moderate") are often the only signals that matter. * **The "Beige Book":** This is the Fed's own anecdotal evidence from 12 districts. It often captures a "vibe shift" in business sentiment that hasn't yet shown up in the hard math of the GDP reports. \--- summarized via gemini - re-spliced by me.

Emilio___Molestevez

Brown turned off their camera system to thwart ICE lotta former Deans bouta be crowding that dumpster

PropulsionEngineer

What will really kill ICE is when gasoline is rationed, and then eventually withheld for the military and aviation…probably starting in the 2040s or 2050s.

cow_grass

Shrek detained by ICE.

amcrambler

You’re responding to a post about why doesn’t everybody use Toyota’s hybrid approach. My point is hybrid does not work for towing. There’s a reason those are relegated to mid-small size suv and car segments. For full size pickups, the viable options are diesel, small ICE with turbo or electric and electric just shit the bed. The closest thing to a “hybrid” is Ram’s e-torque which isn’t really the same hybrid system as a Prius. For folks that want one vehicle that can do truck things and tow, CAFE is choking off our options. When you go to replace your truck, you will find out.

Virtual-Moose5921

‼️🚨ICE🚨‼️

schnexit

Fair point, competition is real. But I’d frame the dynamics a bit differently. MarketAxess monetised open trading very successfully, but that edge is narrowing. Algorithmic execution and auto-quoting are compressing its share in core credit, and portfolio trading was clearly underweighted for too long. Portfolio trading is now roughly 10% of reported TRACE volume in US IG, and that shift has disproportionately benefited Tradeweb. On top of that, MarketAxess is structurally exposed to credit only. No rates, no ETFs. That caps its ability to scale with broader electronification. Tradeweb’s advantage is breadth. Rates, ETFs, credit, repo. When clients push more flow electronically, Tradeweb captures it across asset classes and workflows. That matters for scale, data, and pricing power over time. Bloomberg is still a strong venue, but it’s no longer the default growth winner. Market share has clearly fragmented across Tradeweb, MarketAxess, ICE, and others. Bloomberg also has inherent tensions in its model: terminal revenues versus automation, trading fees versus data monetisation, neutrality versus control. Those conflicts slow decision-making. Tradeweb is simpler. One core objective: maximize electronic trading flow. In infrastructure businesses, focus plus scale usually wins.

MANEWMA

They will destroy our car industry regardless... Americans wont like having horse and buggies called ICE cars while the rest of the world has a Jetson car..

Little_Magazine_1773

Santa Claus got deported by ICE and had to take his rally with him!

anoos-tickle

Santa was detained by ICE and is on a plane to El Salvador LMAO 🤌

stroopwafelscontigo

Different commentor but, my gripe with Waymo and others isn’t that they’re “taking human jobs” so much as the obfuscation of liability and responsibility. Plus the potential for surveillance.  I’m not worried about a Waymo crashing, no. I’m sure they navigate just fine. I don’t like the idea that they may start sniffing peoples’ phones and devices or the potential to weaponize them for use by ICE or other government agencies.  Call me crazy all you want - if you don’t see the potential, you’re not paying attention.  “Non-citizen detected. Navigating to nearest detention center.” “Dissident detected. Subject flagged for further inspection.”

StoicVirtue

He sent ICE to the North Pole and it didn't go well

Correct_Patience_611

I’m American. Every single day there’s hundreds of videos posted. I NEVER SAID feds were kidnapping people outside of the US…what tbe hell? So considering the fact you obviously didn’t even read my comment and the fact you can simply go to any social media or type in Google ‘people getting taken illegally by ICE’ means I’m not wasting my energy to show you something that is common knowledge in the US. I’ll help you a bit. Type ICE raids Minnesota for the most recent kidnappings. Citizens are doing a great job fighting back there and not allowing their neighbors to be taken without a warrant. ICE has had no warrants, they have arrested citizens, and even one Purple Heart war veteran who was deported to Korea! You are obviously choosing not to see whats right in front of your face so me giving you sources won’t change your ignorant mind…

Salt-Whole9003

Santa doesnt stay and kill people and mooch off taxpayers. Proud of ICE. We need more ICE ICE BABY

Lavayo

As europoor your politics are none of my business, but ICE really should give Santa a pass. Alien or not.

creemeeseason

There's a lot of reasons to believe it will. The OBBB was loaded to provide large tax refunds this year. No tax on OT for example will entirely be done via tax refunds this year. On top of that China is doing well, LATAM is growing. India is growing.... Europe is cutting rates and bringing back ICE vehicles.... On top of that, oil is priced on dollars and in inflation adjusted terms is about as cheap as it's ever been except 2020. The dollar is continuing to be devalued. Plus, the consensus is that it's uninvestible and there is an insurmountable supply glut....

TheOGCJR

Yeah that’s what ICE is for

teamyg

Got up early and shorted QQQ around 614.4, 🐻 Target is 590 or lower, Santa isn't coming this year; deported by ICE already 👮‍♂️🎅👮‍♂️

Outside_Ice3252

I will just play devils advocate. i dont really care about tesla stock price accept that it helps to create the technology that I want to see. I have no idea what the stock price should be. I will just share the incredible possibility the tech that tesla is trying to make point 1) just test drive the autonomous capability of a toyota camry vs a tesla model 3. yes waymo has good autonomous tech, but they are not vertically integrated like tesla. Tesla can easily undercut waymo. point 2) AI is expensive musk has the money to do it. also, its a long term. point 3) Tesla is making profit on the EVs while others are not. that profit is more than enough to fund the transition to ev robo taxis/shuttles/buses. point 4) musk just bought the government. I dont like this answer. but its really cheap to buy the government. oil companies and car companies have bought the government for decades that changing. musk does not need to buy the government to ban ICE cars and subsidize personally owned EVs. he just needs the government to allow robo taxis and shuttles once they are safe. to have uniform rules across the country, ideally. point 5.) supercharger network momentum. the competition here just is not that good in many countries. and tesla has yet to barely scratch the surface here. point 6) energy storage is where the money is at. its not about the sales anymore. its about getting things built quickly, safely, reliabily. There is so much innovation that will continue to occur. Tesla has shown the ability to have top notch software. it can use any cell supplier. it is flexible. its next storage products wont need to be near electrical grid substations. point 7) robots. I am too knowledgable about robots. but the story is that humanoid robots are the holy grail and its all about the AI and the hand. as I said before, the AI component is just very expensive. musk has sold investors that Tesla is the only company that has the AI and the ability to rapidly scale manufacturing.

srfdriver99

A lot of the traditional auto manufacturers are giving up on electric and going back to ICE/Hybrid, so Tesla is in the position of still being the leading electric vehicle company in a world where half its competition just up and quit. That's bullish, but not in the really short term.

sonofalando

He’s in an ICE facility as we speak.

BaxBaxPop

1) It's not magic. It's so simple only someone with a complete lack of economic sense wouldn't see it. First off, EV's in general are cheaper to run than ICE cars. They have lower maintenance and in most areas electricity is far cheaper than gas. Most importantly, the biggest reason Ubers cost $6-7/mile is labor cost. There's a driver in the car subject to minimum wage requirements. How in the world could any taxi paying a human driver going to compete in price against one that doesn't have a human? It's so obvious. 2) You know nothing of Tesla. Cybercab will be made in a revolutionary unboxed production line. 4 concurrent production lines (front, rear, left side, ride side) that converge to a single point of final assembly. That drastically improves production efficiency. Beyond that, 48V architecture saves money. Steer by wire saves money. Brake by wire saves money. It's also smaller (2 seater) and lighter than any other EV. Which means it can have a much smaller battery than any currently available EV. Moreso, since it isn't built for performance, the Cybercab and it's smooth and steady 80mph max (or so) with no concern for record-breaking acceleration, can even further reduce battery size. So yes, it's estimated to cost $20k to produce. I'm not buying a bridge. I'm buying TSLA with as much money as I can (responsibly). And I'm getting rich because of it. Are you getting rich? Would you like to? It's not too late. Most investors are just as ignorant of Tesla's Robotaxi potential as you are. This is still NVDIA circa 2023...

Mindless_Profile_76

I’ll attempt a serious answer. Before Tesla, nobody in the industry had a clue how to make 100,000 BEVs that would come remotely close to be competitive with current ICE or even Toyota hybrids. When the Prius came out, there was a lot of criticism. Going from nothing to over 1 million BEVs a year is amazing. You have autonomous driving, solar/energy and robots. You can argue every one of those may be impossible or silly or non profitable. But if Tesla replicates their BEV business with any one of those at a similar scale? What’s that worth?

MrPBH

As is tradition. Seriously, if we just invested in green energy and battery storage tech a decade ago, we could have been the world leader in that market and we wouldn't be dependent on petroleum products. We could have had a golden era of green industry where US businesses created real value and GDP growth and American workers enjoyed high paying jobs. Instead, China has taken that mantle and we're gearing up to kill a bunch of innocent people to steal some very low quality sour crude from a much smaller and weaker nation. All to make a bunch of worthless plastic garbage and to sit in our overpriced ICE vehicles, idling on the highway while we deliver UberEats to pay our inflated rent.

SleepCareful6461

Is king piss pants gonna talk about how he's treated unfairly and bitch some more before he tacos out of something, or is the fat out of shape town drunk going to fail at doing simple pullups while repeating the words "warrior ethos" and commit some more war crimes, or is cross eyes going to fuck up another investigation and fail at catching another shooter then write his 4th book in his "the plot against the king" trilogy in an insanely sad way to brainwash kids, or is ICE barbie gonna have another bad day and take it out on another dog, or is brain worm going to reclassify the flu shot as a WMD, or are we going to war with Venezuela for no reason, or are the files being released. I can't wait to find out oh boy

musicandarts

There is no reason to take zero-sum position. We can have PHEV, full EV, and full ICE vehicles. I believe will slowly take over ICE segment, just like hybrids became more widespread. China is already entrenched in every country except US. If you are in Europe, you see BYD EVs everywhere.

sasquatch_melee

Called it when GM and Ford said they were skipping over any more hybrids or plug-in hybrids straight to BEV. Americans were never going to adopt BEV in mass so quickly.  It took 20 years for Americans to accept hybrids as normal, amazing management thought the market would immediately adopt BEVs despite their many drawbacks vs ICE (range, refueling time, cold weather performance, serviceability, higher prices, etc).  GM and Ford should have done a generation or two of PHEVs first, normalized plugging in your car every night and get people hands-on with the smoother, quieter driving experience of an electric motor, then started pushing BEVs. 

yatruthordare

Santa got picked up by ICE

Error_404_403

It is a foreign word handled by ICE.

AoeDreaMEr

Maybe. Majority vs minority. Same issues with ICE. So many failure points are faced by some within 50k miles. EV failures barring battery failure are non-existent in first 50k miles. Battery failure should be warranty anyway.

therealnorthwild

 🥭Press conference is to announce ICE deported Santa back to his shithole country

Strange_Valuable_573

That’s this whole administration friend. I hope the ICE boys enjoy sitting in court

stoked_7

The EU called and said nope. Europe rolls back EV mandates, ditching the 2035 ban on ICE engines.

Areyounobody__Too

Well, even at 40k, no one wants to buy worse base trims in the US than what they can get for an equivalent price with an ICE engine. Otherwise, this thread wouldn't exist and you wouldn't be here.

LetMeSeeYourNumber

toyota hybrid also saves you on (at least my facelift `23 corolla) - a far simpler and more durable transmission -> eCVT - no starter motor - no alternator - airco fully electric, instead of a belt on the ICE engine

ArcFault

Not completely true. Hybrids, especially Toyotas, often eliminate a lot of the repair-prone mechanical systems that ICE vehicles implement or cut their wear rates in half - traditional transmission for eCVT, starter motor, drive belts, dedicated alternator, brake pads, etc etc. It's not accurate to say hybrids have the problems of both.

AtomicSymphonic_2nd

I’m honestly taking all this news to mean that battery tech is *still* too expensive to sell broadly to the general public *without any* governmental assistance in adoption. That’s honestly heartbreaking for any future-focused or environmental-focused people out there. I’m guessing R&D costs along with resource mining (Lithium) is still too high to start discounting EVs like normal ICE cars. It’s a bit frustrating… nearly the entire automotive industry bet the farm on EVs completely replacing ICEs within a decade. Even Volkswagen is taking something of a beating on going full-EV, too. Congrats to Toyota for taking things slow… apparently their slow-to-adopt-new-tech strategy has fucking paid off massively. -signed, An F and GM bag holder

EmployerSpirited3665

Unfortunately they just have 2… well 3 if you count the e transit. The erect thing is kind of silly… like going back to plug in hybrids. Doesn’t make a lot of sense maintenance wise. But it’s still better than the shitty pure ICE. 

ChippewaBarr

Well I'm in Canada and mine was the Platinum so the prices will be different (keep in mind also markups are illegal in Canada, not sure about US) but MSRP sticker for mine was (121k CAD) and they eventually gave it to me for 78k minus our federal EV incentive (5k). Then I had a trade in they gave me 46k for...so total obligation was 29k. Ignoring the trade in the truck was "sold" for 73k which is still insanely below sticker, market, and ICE versions of lower trims even. That price in USD is like 53k USD which would be a steal. Personally if I were you I'd be waiting them out big-time lol.

lennyxiii

For sure! Higher vehicles can definitely be more unsafe for those not in the higher vehicle, I’m definitely not denying that. Just throwing it out there that some people are unaware of just how heavy these ev vehicles can be making their mass to size ratio pretty crazy. Getting hit by a tesla at 60 mph is definitely going to cause more damage than a similar sized ICE sedan weighing 2-3000 lbs less.

Final7C

All of the big 3 do a shitty job with EVs. Let me explain. Either they don't actually want to make a good car. Or they don't know how to make a good car. The EVs have been underpowered, with middling ranges, with prices that are too high to make sense for almost anyone. The hybrid is what they should have been doing 20 years ago. but instead they laughed in oil. They kept full ICE vehicles and put an outrageous markup on EVs and anything close to a Hybrid. Teslas would probably still sell really well if Elon hadn't gone and got into politics. The problem is, conservatives tend to dislike EVs. And there is a lot to dislike EVs from a visceral level. 1.) They take at a minimum 30-45 minutes to fully charge. At best. Is that a long time, well, when you're used to 2-5 minute fill up times, yes. It's a long ass time. If you run out of energy on the side of the road, a tow truck or an electric generator is the only thing that can help you now. 2.) They cost more than comparable ICE Cars. They use less parts, but the parts are more expensive. They also know that people who want an EV will pay through the nose for it. At least that was the thought. They saw Teslas and thought - Boy, I bet we could crank out a piece of shit EV and it would sell like hot cakes... Except, The reason why Teslas were so coveted, is Elon made an expensive car, that was fun. It seemed futuristic, and it didn't feel like he was shitting them out as the lowest bidder. And the ones that he was shitting out, those were priced similar to a midsize sedan and STILL went faster and further than the Big 3's EVs. paying an extra 20k for a car, just doesn't work. 3.) They don't have as many options as ICE cars. They are so worried about making a car that goes as far as an ICE car, that they cut out all the bells and whistles because it reduces range. 4.) They are heavier, and thus cannot pull as much as an ICE vehicle. And lose charge when under load (not much different than a big engine using more gas, but the difference is, the ICE F150 has a towing capacity of 8,200lbs - 13,500lbs. vs the Lightning of 7,000 -10,000lbs.) 3,500 lbs is significant. especially if you're buying the truck to tow. 5.) They have a maximum range that is less than a current ICE vehicle, and the re-fill structure isn't nearly as well developed as ICE vehicles. And they haven't cracked the code on fast refill. 6.) EVs are a direct competitor to most of the secondary market for the auto industry. - The companies that make the parts (replacement and otherwise) for the cars are suddenly not going to have as many parts, meaning hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs are gone. Your car doesn't need an exhaust, anything in the engine block, it needs 4 identical motors, (well maybe 2 sets of 2), you need chassis and suspension, you need, electrical, a heater, an AC, a wiper system. But the big ticket items of a transmission and engine are gone. replaced with a battery pack and wiring harness. 7.) Range anxiety is a stupid but real thing. Oh no, my car only gets 200 miles to the charge. The average rural driver drives around 40 miles per day. Do some drive more than that? yes. But we're talking averages. That is from home, to work, and all side trips, 40 miles. In the harsh winter that means you're probably needing to charge due to the 39% drop in efficiency (ICE vehicles tend to use 15-24% more gas on cold days). But it's still WELL within the range that most people drive per day. but because it's not 500+ miles, we all freak the out. 8.) The Oil and gas industry is literally a MAJOR part of the american economy. It is one of the largest employers in the US, and you won't find most of its workers switching to EVs anytime soon. That's like watching someone from GM drive a Toyota. Here's what Tesla did to make themselves successful. 1.) They pulled an APPLE. They made something fun, that just seemed to work. 2.) They were a vertical monopoly. They build all the components themselves. ALL of the software/hardware was developed by Tesla, all of the batteries were built by Tesla. That's HUGE difference in how the software worked. It's why most other makers touchscreens and media centers feel like total dogshit. Because every component was made by a different manufacturer. And all told to "Just work together". Instead of building a single unified software/hardware package. They had tons of individual lines doing a segment, then slapped them into a different hardware package. And it feels clunky and unintuitive. Because they KNEW we'd buy it no matter what. afterall, almost no one chooses a car based on the media center. So why spend the money on it, just make it mostly functional. The problem is, most of the parts to these cars are the same way. They work, and they mostly work together, but they don't feel made for the vehicle they are going in. instead they feel like they are just sourced from a big bin of "generic parts" and made to fit. It's really just a slap in the face of anyone who wants to be in one. They are actively made them underpowered. You know what sold 50% of the people on a tesla. Insanity mode. The ability to go from 0-60 in about 3 seconds. That sold more Teslas than ANY OTHER THING. The next biggest thing was "He released an update over the air, increasing range , no need to take it in, it just updates wirelessly." It was cool, dangerous as fuck and not a great idea to allow a car to be "always tied to the manufacturer" but cool. It is hard to sell "We purposefully made your life harder, to help you". Hybrids are a good route for them to take. it allows them to figure out the fucking battery problems, it gets everyone used to the angel halo sounds, and excitement at getting more than 20mpg while still driving a big ass SUV. and they can charge "a bit" more. Not waaay more, but a bit more. Politics of the current admin wanting to gobble Oil Exec's giblets while handing their asses to OPEC. All while basically cutting out ANY price incentives AND adding tariffs to all foreign cars and any EVs and EV parts. It makes sense that for the next 3 years or so Ford, and GM are going to say "We can't survive a lack of demand" And instead of learning the "lesson we keep trying to teach you old man" they are going to just stop, and switch only to hybrids. Which is still a step, but a 1/2 step at best. But you know what... maybe this will give them the chance to figure out how to make a decent car.

finglish_

But from a cost, complexity and reliability point of view, won't these be expensive as fuck as you have to cram a ICE and an electric car into the same car basically? Or do both share the same motor and drive train and the ICE is just used as a generator?

ShadowLiberal

They fell for the innovator's dilemma, where they didn't want to risk their legacy business by investing in a new technology. IMO it's inevitable at this point that a decade from now a lot of the ICE manufacturers will either be a shadow of their former selves, or won't exist anymore, because of all the Chinese EV makers that are already eating their lunch. Ford themselves was sounding the alarm about this threat just a few years ago.

ShadowLiberal

And people like you forget that China had basically all the same issues with EVs that you outline. And yet guess what? EV's are selling like crazy there. The sales of ICE vehicles have completely fallen off a cliff, as have the sales of non-Chinese vehicles. This means that the US most definitely could have been an EV leader if they wanted to. But our politicians and automakers didn't have the political will or long term vision to make it a reality. The automakers got caught up in the Innovator's Dilemma where they didn't want to risk killing their profitable ICE business to shift to the new EV technology.

ShadowLiberal

Wrong. Sooner or later ICE vehicles are going to die out no matter how much anti-EV politicians try to stop it. It's simply not economically viable for automakers to keep making and doing R&D on both ICE and EVs. Especially not when ICE bans are going into effect in a bunch of countries in 2030 and beyond. IMO a lot of ICE automakers today are making sure that they're probably going to be screwed long term by all the cheaper Chinese EV's flooding the market. This is something that even Ford was sounding the alarm on a few years ago, foreign automakers sales have already been decimated in China.

WistopherWalken

The reason why PHEVs are good is because they are able to extract more efficiency out of ICE by allowing them to operate at their more efficient torque bands more consistently. PHEVs *are* a smart choice and you are being quite ignorant of how electric motors can nicely completement ICE. 

ChippewaBarr

? I'm not talking about the Chinese EVs (but the CCP backing def doesn't hurt them). They will experience massive consolidation at some point no doubt but brands like BYD and Seely ain't going nowhere. There's plenty of legacy automakers on the planet making great EV and ICE vehicles - North America as a whole just has rejected them for the time being.

meltingpnt

Isn't part of the efficiency problem with series hybrids are that they're less efficient than a parallel hybrid at highway speeds? I assume thats why the volt supplies mechanical power from the ICE at highway speeds despite initially claiming it was only a generator.

Historical_Course587

This is what a Chevy Volt (not Bolt) is, and they are absolutely genius. And I say that as someone who's only bought EVs for a decade now. The worst part of of an EV is how heavy the battery is. The worst part of an ICE vehicle is how everything under the hood has to be designed to ride out the massive explosions needed to move it at highway speeds. So you simplify. EV gets the big battery stripped out and replaced with a smaller one (think a 30-40 mile range), just enough to handle variable power draw and local trips. Then a generator is designed specifically to drive enough juice to the battery/engine that the vehicle runs continuously as long as gas is in the tank. They get great mileage, can go hundreds of miles, still fill at a gas station, you can charge the battery in your garage and almost never have the generator kick in, or let them run their entire lives without ever being plugged to a charger. Best of all: the generator is simple to troubleshoot and replace. The battery is small and cheap to replace. They actually make sense as a forever vehicle, which IMO is what any truck price-tag should come with.

SpoonEngineT66Turbo

F150 Lightening and Cybertruck have like zero overlap in audience. People buying the F150 Lightening wanted an electric F150, people who bought cybertrucks wanted a "exoctic" car to stand out, and to throat Elon. Rivian is way up market with the R1T and it's range drops to half at like 50% towing capacity. Rivian has way more crossover with people buying top trim Rangers & Colorado/Canyons than the F150. Silverado EVs are nonexistent except for municipalities buying them to hit their EV requirements. I've literally never once seen am EV Silverado without county/state decals. Business class trucks that tried EVs also had nonexistent sales for the same reason as the F150. People are looking for an EV equivalent to their ICE trucks and unfortunately the range goes to zero the second you tow or load anything. Great oppertunity my ass lmao.

PizzaDominotrix

Adding my anecdotal information to this: I've gone through four 2nd gen Priuses. Still have 3, one was wiped out by a drunk driver. (I walked away with no injuries.) One at ~175k, one at ~220k, and one at 320k miles. 100k of that 320k has been purely beating on it doing food delivery. These were all heavily used <$5,000 cars. All still averaging ~45mpg today, with the worst being in the upper 30's in 0 degree weather like this, with lots of idle time and the heat maxed out, and the best still landing in the upper 50's in the summer, driving with a heavy foot trying to make money. All still on the original drive train and hybrid batteries. All still in "good" health according to the Dr. Prius app, and look good using Torque to monitor the voltage deltas across the battery packs. They need oil changes and fluids of course, brake pads like once every ~150k miles, wheel bearings similarly around like every 100k miles, and I've gone through some tie rods. A lot of work is surprisingly easy to DIY. Even replacing the capacitor on the combo meter (speedometer) in one -- a failure point on this car worth ~$1,000 to fix at a shop -- was relatively simple to do and I did it in a weekend as a leisurely shade tree mechanic with basic tools. They're not literally flawless, but they're incredibly solid and have saved me a ton of money not just in gas, but in repairs and the time spent on them. The fact that they just fire up and go, every day, and do what I expect them to do. I've known people who have had to resort to living in these, and the extra capacity for heat/AC, or just electricity was a total game changer. I'll be sticking to gen 2 Priuses until I literally cant anymore, and I don't foresee owning another ICE vehicle again.

CarbonRod12

Disagree that buying an ICE is worse for people in urban cities. Anyone whose sole parking option is the street doesn’t want an EV because there’s no charging it at home. And like you said the charging infrastructure is not there. 

FlipZip69

Does not fit my bill but I think a small size lower range truck would have demand. Makes a great daily driver in a city while providing that truck convivence for the family. And long trips your likely taking the ICE car. I can understand that people with a single car likely need the flexibility and range of an ICE vehicle. But there are lots of dual vehicle families and for them, I would think an EV can make a great deal of sense. Focus on that market first.

bearhunter429

#Breaking News: Santa got deported by ICE LMAO🤌

Dransel

Except… there is plenty of demand, the options are just utter shit compared to what is available globally. I don’t think people care all that much about whether their car is ICE, Hybrid, or EV. They just care about ease of use an not having to worry about ever being without use of their car. ICE is the current default because there are an abundance of gas stations. EVs would be the same if we had the energy infrastructure to support them in the same way we go ICE vehicles. If you live in rural America, an EV is an impractical choice. If you live in or near a metropolitan area or large city, buying an ICE car seems much worse than buying a small EV. The problem is our automakers aren’t building to address both markets. They’re building terrible EVs and extremely overpriced ICE vehicles. We should let Detroit do what it does best and focus on dependable ICE trucks, let Japanese automotive companies sell us Hybrids, and then open up our market to Korean (and Chinese) EVs (or prop up a competitor to Tesla who can actually make a good EV instead of their shitty Model 3s/Ys).

lipstickandchicken

It's way better for the planet being able to put 10% of the amount of battery into each car along with centuries-old ICE technology, that negates all the negatives of EVs.

mohelgamal

Ford, GM and stellantis are effectively throwing their own future in the trash by not embracing EVs fully, especially after charging networks are already rolling out and it is easy now not to get stranded on a long trip. The future is EVs, nothing to do with regulation, or tax credits or government support. They are easy to build automatically, cost less to maintain, more performance, and a bunch of other advantages that make anyone go electric almost never go back. Their prices are dropping to beyond what ICE cars cost. Even if they can stop Chinese manufacturers from entering the American market, they are already giving up on their Asian and European markets By the time they try to get into it again, they won’t only be competing against new BYDs, teslas and Rivian, they will be competing against their used market as well.