ICE

CrungoMcDungus

Tortuga Cove is a notorious ICE facility. I’m buying calls

ImAnElkShootMe

Anecdotally, I've had a 2023 Bolt EV for a few months now and I absolutely love it. With the rebate I basically got it fully decked out for less than $28,000. The one tradeoff for the price was it has a lower max wattage than a Tesla or Leaf, but at 55 kwH that's still a full high-speed charge in under 90 minutes. It's perfect for me who does 99% local driving but wants to do the occasional road trip. Honestly I think GM's biggest mistake was discontinuing the line, only because now they don't have a mid-size crossover which I think has a lot more appeal than they think. But at this point GM is producing more EVs/hybrids than ICE-only vehicles, and as you said, Tesla's big problem is always that one line: "whenever it comes out." I'm sure the Model 2 will be very popular but we've also been waiting four years for a pickup truck.

YodelingTortoise

The Chevy bolt had an MSRP of 26k and a 300+ range. The tech is absolutely there. Very few people drive 300+ a day. EVs are far cheaper to produce than ICE, it's just that until recently they were novelty cars with all the greatest bells and whistles. But a basic feature EV powered by a mid size motor would be the absolute most economical vehicle to produce and to own, both up front and in longevity.

DrawohYbstrahs

Oh fantastic point, you got me. We should definitely give up on trying to replace ICE cars, unless we can *completely* stop relying on oil, immediately. /s (just for you).

thejumpingsheep2

eVs are superior in every way precisely because of how easy they are to make and maintain. You can make any sort of vehicle with it, big or small and at superior price point once you are scaled. Charge time is irrelevant for common use cases and frankly overstated. Most people do not drive 200+ mi a day. The grand majority of people drive maybe 20mi-30mi a day. If you dont drive 200+ a day why do you need charge on the road? With an eV, you generally never "run out" of fuel for common use... thats because you are always charge at home. Now ask yourself why use an inefficient ICE, with higher fuel cost, when 95% of your usage is covered by an eV? So what if you have to charge once every other week outside your home? Is that 15-20m really worth all the extra you paid at all other times commuting around town in those 2 weeks? Probably not since odds are, you will be stopping to rest for that time even if you drive an ICE. There is no question that the eV is better for common use cases. There is also no question that eVs are technologically superior since energy can be controlled rather easily without mechanical means. There is no comparison here. The only advantage to the ICE is being able to store more energy overall. But once again, to what end? There are legit good reasons to need that but the grand majority of people do not. Note that China, which has cheap eVs, is already 22% of sales as eV. They are expecting 40% by 2030. Im not sure about the fleet argument. If you have an alternative that geniunely saves you a lot of money, does it matter if you also have an ICE? It would just sit there for long trips I think.

Jeff__Skilling

My point is that even if there **is** widespread EV adoption in the quickest timeline possible (~10 years) in North America, there's still massive demand for it across the globe. My point here is that use of internal combustion engines in the US and Canada aren't propping up market crude prices to the tune of $70/bbl......you're ignoring the rest of the world...... another thing you're missing is thinking that the sole reason that EVs have not completely phased out ICE-based vehicles is because of a lithium bottleneck......it's oversimplifying a much much much more complex issue than that...

Inevitable_Effect716

Ford is saying that the demand for the gas-powered Maverick (starting below USD 30K) is much strong than anticipated. They have added a third shift in their factory, and can't even keep up with the demand. So there is still a strong demand for non-EV cars. And it's not entirely impossible that say, a more conservative government, would delay the 2035 deadline for ICE cars. I don't care about the politics behind it, but I think an investor should keep those information in the back of his mind.

bossmcsauce

Sure, now. But just consider what it will look like when we have like 70% adoption of electric cars replacing ICE vehicles, electrification of everything else, mass high C rating battery storage deployment, etc in the next 20 years. In 1920, probably nobody thought we’d invade iraq for oil interests

ncsumichael

A comparable ICE sedan would be like an EXL accord which starts at $33,500. That would be giving some benefit of the doubt to the Honda because there’s still more features on a base Tesla.

ILoveYouGrandma

Whats an ICE sedan?

AyumiHikaru

BUT crap box ICE car doesn't take forever to charge lol

Uncanny_M

Even with the credit, you're spending an extra 10k at least (base model) for an otherwise comparable ICE fwd sedan. In just 10 short years, you too might climb out of the hole you dug yourself and start saving money on gas lol

neutralpoliticsbot

well its now cheaper than my crap box ICE car so I will be buying one

Chromewave9

How many ICE vehicles do you think exist that can drive 1,000 miles on a single tank? The average person drives anywhere from 30-50 miles per day. There's no need for a 1k mile battery that would just cause your vehicle to be heavier, reduce efficiency, and reduce the vehicle performance. Also, if you own a home and drive an EV, never having to go to a gas station and having a 100% charge every time you leave your home is such a huge benefit.

resumethrowaway222

1. The EV market is growing at a rapid pace and the ICE market is shrinking 2. Tesla is the only manufacturer that can currently make a profit on EVs 3. Tesla has the only decent charging network in the EV market and this advantage is likely to continue for at least the next several years 4. A recession will hit all car manufacturers, and they all have tons of debt, except for Tesla which has none. They will all be hit harder than Tesla All these reasons mean that Tesla is poised to grab massive market share in the emerging EV segment, and make a profit on it, while its competitors will be forced to subsidize their money losing EVs out of profits from a shrinking ICE market. Tesla's price cuts are putting additional pressure on other manufacturers now, and even if they sell at break even for the next few years, the other manufacturers will have to bleed to match. And one more thing. For all the hate it gets, Tesla FSD is actually amazing, and absolutely blows anything except for LIDAR equipped robo taxis out of the water. If they can get this to a L3 or L4 level in the next few years, there will really be no reason to buy any other car. Even if that probability is 5%, that adds massive value to the stock. I'm not saying this is all justified, and I currently don't own the stock at this price, but you asked for the bull case, and that is the bull case.

ImpressoDigitais

There is a large group that often gets overlooked. Visa overstays. Considering how overwhelmed ICE is, I suspect those numbers have recovered and grown since covid.

PeanutButtaRari

Yeah my average is low. I’m not worried at all because of the IRA funding and CARB/EPA ICE engine bans. Plus, the partnership with major car manufacturers and logistics companies. It’s a moonshot and I probably see anything until 2025 but all the subsidies and regulations are pointing towards it

Nodeal_reddit

100% EV is a pipe dream. If manufacturers stop selling ICE cars, then people are going to try to keep their old ICE cars running longer.

Chromewave9

Advance Auto Parts will be in trouble once EV's continue taking ICE market share. I'd stay away from it long-term.

DyehuthyTV

**Technical Analysis** is **Propaganda** made it by **Brokers** to call **New Clients** to their **platforms**, **easy content** and with **zero financial knowledge**. This content is pretty convinience to the Brokers, because they **earn money with fees** by convencing people to try to do "*Daytrading, Scalping, etc*" and another Gambling Strategies with TA on the Financial Instruments (*Derivatives*) they offert. # Please, TA is just Marketing, not Financial Knowledge # Look PIT TRADERS or FLOOR TRADERS from CME or NYBOT (ICE today) The Open Market Outcry. I am talking of **Professional Traders** from 50's to beginning of 2000's. **This people didnt use charts and less TA 👇** *Videos* [Why Wall Street Traders Are in Decline](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THpXovjy7Bc) [Open Market Outcry Trading to Electronic ECN Trading](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WFLcoAnfPQ) Take care of your money!

Xillllix

It’s because of Wright’s Law, basically cost decline in new technology. Tesla is aiming to produce EVs for a $15k manufacturing cost. With their next generation of vehicles they’re reinventing the whole production line that was perfected by Toyota. They’ll be able to flood the market with self driving cars that are cheaper to build than their ICE equivalent. It’s 75% of their target, they’re going for 20 million. Also expecting 33% of them will become robotaxis and won’t be sold.

wichitawire

This article is not favorable towards MULN. The truck looks really nice though. Unlike a car, trucks like this have plenty of room to put motors and batteries. It's relatively easy to replace the ICE drive train with an electric drive train. It's basically a commodity product with no moat. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/muln-stock-mullen-10-q-194105538.html

OptionExpiration

This is from the ICE. [https://www.theice.com/publicdocs/futures\_canada/IFCA\_Disruptive\_Trading\_Practices.pdf](https://www.theice.com/publicdocs/futures_canada/IFCA_Disruptive_Trading_Practices.pdf) Go to page 4 question 12. On this market, an igniting momentum trade is considered to disruptive and is not allowed. Note that each exchange has their own rules, but this might be a good explanation of what may be going on. Obviously, the CBOE should be able to give you a better explanation...

TeddyBongwater

I believe tesla is a fantastic company to invest in if you care about the health of humans and the planet. ICE vehicles are incredibly bad for humans and the planet. They are making a real impact. Is it perfect? No

toydan

Toyota ICE doing fine tho volume is down. EVs close to last place

gettendies

Yeah but the Concorde just used a shit ton of good old ICE thrust and burned gas like a mf. Hybersonic uses hydrogen fuel like Nos.

iqisoverrated

I found out about Tesla by simply thinking ahead where the world would have to be moving. Renewables were on the horizon and EVs seemed a logical step...and Tesla was the only company that was going at it full tilt. Since I was I kid I thought that ICE cars were wasteful and EVs are just so efficient that this seemed to be an inevitable progression. When I finally got mine in early 2019 I was just blown away how good it was and immediately sunk some money into the company. (Of course this investment could have gone horribly wrong...so this isn't some 'genius move' or something. There was a fair amount of luck involved that the company didn't fold around that time) Long story short: Go to what you know and think ahead.

noobie107

cope however you wish. AI will also replace jobs the same way EVs are replacing ICE vehicles

frozen_mercury

What! Ford makes decent EVs but honestly their software suck. Their EV profit margins are even more terrible. No EV maker is actually eating another EV maker’s lunch. They are all eating lunch from ICE.

MissDiem

There has to be weird accounting going on with their claim of losing so much on EVs, especially given that their EV lineup is super high cost luxury models. EVs aren't *that* hard to produce. It's not curing cancer. It's a truck. At a macro level, you delete some major expensive parts from the drive train, and you sub in a fat battery and two DC motors. The savings from not having to supply your giant ICE engine at substantial. Then on top of that, then add $30k to the price. Ford (and others) comfortably sell hybrids that contain both ICE and an entry level EV train. The up charge is only about 1500 for that. Tesla and Toyota and others have shown you can sustainably sell a mid tier PHEV or EV at reasonable prices. So on pure accounting, selling an EV truck FOR $140k doesn't seem like you should be losing much, if anything. My guess is they're fudging the accounting to add some fuzzy costs, and allowing their ICE side of the ledger to look pristine for whatever reason.

Pioustarcraft

oh you want the EV, not the ICE...

PM_ME_DANK

Not all but most of legacy auto is likely fucked long term. Right now legacy car manufacturers off-set the losses of their EV divisions by selling profitable ICE vehicles. However, as the world transitions to EVs (1.2 million sold globally in 2017 - 10.6 million in 2022, 92% CAGR) will ICE vehicles be able to maintain their profitability? Will enough consumers still want to buy ICE cars 5 years from now? Every EV they sell at a loss steals a sale from a profitable ICE. Margins are already thin in the auto industry and if there’s a big shift in demand to EVs those margins that legacy manufacturers are counting on to prop up their EV segments will no longer be there. Further none of the legacy automakers have proven they can scale production of EVs. Scaling is incredibly difficult and legacy has billions invested in legacy plants and legacy engineers. Not to mention trying to unwind their dealership network. Legacy auto has a very slippery slope to climb and the majority won’t make it if past technological transitions are anything to go by

ThatSmellsBadToo

Right, and to an extent that market spoke with its money. People are buying BEVs even if many of them are, well, downgrades from ICE or Hybrids in usability, luxury and even environmentally. But the market "spoke" and Toyota was left behind on a particular market segment.

Hessper

I looked at Tesla's but couldn't get over the dash design. I also worry about the build quality as that has always been noted as subpar. Charging speed does not matter to me, my EV is a daily commuter, my spouse has an ICE vehicle for long trips. I literally get along fine with a L1 charger. Automated driving seems cool, but it's hard to trust in some speculative, future software coming out of a Musk shop when he has been failing so hard in his software only business recently.

Chromewave9

False. Ford sells their overpriced vehicle parts to these dealerships which in turn, makes them high margins. The reason Ford is trying to cut off dealerships when it comes to EV's is because EV's require fewer repairs. You don't need an oil change, suffer engine failures every other year, and because there are more moving parts in an ICE vehicle, every part in a Ford dealership has to be OEM and these dealerships must purchase them directly from Ford.

here_now_be

> me seriously reconsider. Ya, I cancelled my order. Bought another ICE for now. If I decide I really want a Tesla the used ones are incredibly cheap now, so I'd just go that route.

here_now_be

> wanting Tesla as my next car to wanting anything but Tesla now. Another one, I had put a deposit down. Bought my 'last ICE so what do I want for my last ICE' vehicle.

fratticus_maximus

I thought the same thing; however, I recently needed a car after my old was totaled. All the other dealerships were price gouging and refusing to drop prices. Tesla is the only one proactively dropping prices this year. That and the federal EV credit make Teslas really attractive. If you can pay a few extra thousand dollars (under 10k) to get a Tesla over a base Toyota, then it makes the decision alot harder, regardless of Elon's right wing bullshit. They are honestly sexy and fun cars compared to ICE cars.

carsonthecarsinogen

I think you think I’m talking about “brand reputation” vs “brand loyalty”. Brand loyalty must involve a current or previous owner to score. Reputation is completely useless and surveys anyone who’s heard of the company regardless of them using their products or services. In this case, tesla has extremely high brand LOYALTY. And to be fair, the average EV buyer drives a Tesla as the majority of EVs on roads are Teslas. So this literally is the average person as it’s only surveying car companies, and everyone knows EV to ICE comparison makes 0 sense in most metrics. Reliability being one of the main ones.

Ehralur

Lot's of people care more about price, safety, specs and/or functionality than looks and/or being status symbols. Teslas are cheaper over an average term of ownership than a Camry, the safest cars ever tested, outperform any equally priced EV or ICE vehicle on specs and have by far the best functionality out there.

BrokenHarp

ICE Connect news feed. But I haven’t tried Bloomberg and ICE is what work provides me.

talkingwolf695

Their Tesla service vehicle broke down or got into an autopilot crash. Sending the good ole reliable Benz sprinter 😎 ICE for life (I hope, as I drive my v8 to work and pass by the Wendy’s dumpster for a quickly)

Better-Protection-23

>This may have to do with Allspring being the former asset management division of Wells Fargo and the fact that the DTCC has competitors it’s not the sole player in clearing. That's a really valid point. I didn't consider that. Now thinking about it, the DTCC is the largest clearinghouse in the world, but it is not the only one. There are a number of other clearinghouses, including the CME Group, the ICE Clear Europe, and the LCH.Clearnet. The fact that Allspring is the former asset management division of Wells Fargo could be a factor in its decision to retire from all services with the DTCC. Wells Fargo has been under scrutiny in recent years for a number of scandals, and it is possible that Allspring is trying to distance itself from the bank. It is also possible that Allspring is simply looking for a more cost-effective clearinghouse. The DTCC is one of the most expensive clearinghouses in the world, and Allspring may be able to save money by using a competitor.

pandacraft

once you start measuring in ppm I'd probably stop caring. Looking into it further it looks like the dose is so small that you'd probably breathe in more formaldehyde by just walking into a house that had a new floor put in, or spending any amount of time in an ICE car. We're talking levels so low that a homeopath would blush. A slice of an apple would be a more imminent threat.

jdav0808

I sell semiconductors for a living. Mostly into automotive. The companies you mention are mostly for consumer electronics. This market is slowing. Automotive is continuing to thrive. I am still having record sales monthly. I see automotive semiconductors an attractive place to be in the future especially with EVs coming more online, they have more chip content then ICE vehicles. Just my opinion. The companies that I own are MCHP, NXPI, MPWR and ADI also ON is starting to look attractive, AVGO has a nice dividend. TSMC does build some of the products above but a lot of them have their own fabs which is a real advantage in bringing new chips to market. I may be bias but this is what I see.

Butt_Hunter_365

HOW ABOUT I JUST EAT SOME ICE CREAM OUT OF YOUR ASS!!!! 

dgdio

You're thinking pre-2016 republican. The majority of college educated voters skews Democrat now. [https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-suburbs-have-shifted-blue/](https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/why-the-suburbs-have-shifted-blue/) Also it's not all car ownership, it's the people willing to deal with the pains of electrical rather than buying the previous ICE car they owned. My wife's college friend who is successful, bought a Model X in March of 2022. She told us that she'd never buy a new one because of Elon.

DelusionalSeaCow

That was an amazing rabbit hole. I'm worried he hasn't posted in 6 months though. Did he get arrested by Netherlands ICE without internet? Or did he try to go swimming in winter there and really hurt himself? I need an update on his life to make sure he's okay.

ballsoutofthebathtub

Weren't US consumers up to the balls in credit for inflated car purchases following the chip shortage? Like people taking 7 year loans to get a used ICE car? I wouldn't be surprised if banks looked at that looming pile of debt and said no thanks.

Paperhands_RC

>ICE > >SPICE She must be hot... WTF. 

Ok_Monk219

Not just other EVs, It will also affect ICE luxury car prices.

carsonthecarsinogen

That’s why they are lowering prices…😂 this is saying they are prioritizing growth over profit, lower the prices sell more vehicles. The model Y is the best selling SUV in the world currently. It’s selling better than last years number 1, the RAV4, *an ICE vehicle*.

zgriffiin

Not really. It might make sense for commercial, where batteries are just not there yet in energy density, but hydrogen doesn’t make much sense for personal use. That’s why all but 3 (Hyundai, BMW and Toyota) have scrapped their hydrogen programs. Also why they are spending way more (and successfully selling more) in EV’s. The more likely long-term is EV’s and Bio-fuels that have a net-zero impact. The latter leverages the same infrastructure and similar tech to today’s ICE, but with net-zero environmental impacts, it’s the creation part of it that is still to be figured out. By then, EV sales will be way higher than the 12% WW today. Hydrogen had its chance and people didn’t like it. The per vehicle and infrastructure costs, along with environmentally efficient ways of creating it in enough quantities and driving around with highly explosive gas in the vehicle, make it a cool idea, but not going anywhere. We should revisit this thread in 20 years, one of us will be wrong! I’ll bet you a Wendy’s meal.

Cautious_Intern7824

I’m happy I bought Toyota (TM) recently. Their EV lineup is poor but their hybrid and ICE selection is still one of the best for buying a car that’s certain to be bulletproof. $133 a share is a steal in my eyes. Guidance was great as well.

Malamonga1

ask Americans who keep buying stuff at outrageous prices (and no I'm not talking about food or necessities). even last year, people were still buying cars for 50-70k. Even now, new ICE cars are still 40k. Who are these people that keep buying cars?

NegativeVega

ICE owns the nyse...

JeffB1517

> So why have these stocks eluded mainstream discussion on discussing broad market passive investing? Well the NYSE hasn't. That is called the CRSP indexes. Little known firms like Vanguard and DFA use them for obscure products like Vanguard's core value and growth funds. :) ICE I'm not sure what you mean. A lot of their exchange are various futures like butane or India stocks.

PraiseBogle

> In my opinion ICE and NDAQ are just as diversified as the S&P 500 because they too encompass the entire US market The s&p500 is a US large cap index, not a total market index. That said, the goal of total market investing is to get the average returns of the market. There will always be other funds or individual equities that can overperform or underperform the total market, but no one is smart enought to know what they will be.

NegativeVega

Idk man I think you're just being deliberately obtuse in not understanding why NASDAQ/ICE are decent substitutes for the s&p 500.

NegativeVega

>There will always be better investments than the s&p 500 index Yeah I understand you could choose any growth stock that succeeds super fast but ICE and NDAQ are sort of unique in that they are old and encompass the entire market, they aren't necessarily lucky they just have an entrenched position to profit off the broad market both through direct gains and volatility. They're like a covered call version of the s&p 500 that doesn't cap your upside. If you don't know what to diversify your equities into, then just buy bonds! 5% is great. You can buy foreign bonds too, brazil is offering 12%

amJustSomeFuckingGuy

About to make more cars than BMW with no dead ICE weight like bmw has and have a solar and energy business growing too. Tesla solar was far and away the cheapest my fiend could buy although he did have to wait and service wasn't very responsive. Still he could afford to wait and saved a bunch of money. Explain to me how they are about to fail.

A_R_K_S

Tesla doesn’t make EV buses & that’s where most of the federal money is going first ie school districts, prison systems, public transit because of the different infrastructure packages we’ve seen. That’s where I’ve focused the EV portion of my portfolio, the companies that design, build & sustain the commercial EV side of things. Also, the EV maritime portion. Oregon & Washington have laws pending (some have passed) regarding gradual transition from ICE boats to EV boats, specifically public ferry systems first.

DesperateOffer7998

I love my Tesla. You’re more than welcome to walk or use a horse when ICE vehicles are phased out. You probably could use the walk anyway cause you’re so fat

here4limitedtimeonly

Best car I have ever owned. Bought the R1T and can’t drive anything else. ICE doesn’t compare, regen braking much smoother than tesla imo.

Serth21

You could be right. There are a decent amount of people in surburbia who do buy expensive ICE vehicles. In those places it is probably the lack of hype and no local charging stations that are keeping them from making the switch to Rivian if they want an EV. I'm just not sure that is enough sales to sustain an entire auto maker who needs to make a serious number of sales to offset their current losses. Places like BMW, Cadillac, Audi, etc. can sustain themselves because they sell a lot of economy vehicles (lower margins but higher sales), I don't think they'd be able to sustain themselves off of their similarly priced luxury models either if they were in the same spot and size Rivian is in. I think Rivian is in a spot where it must be making medium sized auto maker sales but is only making niche level sales.

calebthelion

I think you’re missing a whole demographic of well-off suburban families who are already spending that much on ICE vehicles and are looking for a “luxury” EV replacement so they don’t have to go to the gas station anymore and can have a charger installed at home. The R1T and R1S among the higher end segment are very competitively priced. Is the R1T interior as good as Volvo or Mercedes? No but it’s good enough, comfortable, easy to clean and aesthetically pleasing and is bundled with one of the most capable consumer vehicles ever built. Most people aren’t buying these for work, they’re to haul kids around, go camping (if they have time) and replace the under utilized Rangerovers and and top trim Tacomas you see rolling around in suburbia.

sadnificent

> _"It's existing factory can produce 150k vehicles per year, at $75k per vehicle, that will generate $11b of revenue!"_ Stopped reading here. Just because they _can_ produce these vehicles does not mean that they can sell them. Banks are staying away from them, and regular trucks are overpriced and not selling right now. You know what that means, right? We're about to get a whole lot of leftover stock in the ICE truck market, which means they'll be cheap, which means people will buy those instead.

victoryatsea0008

Yeah to add to the anecdotes, I've seen tons of new Rivians near me. Neighbor just got one and absolutely loves it. My last ICE was a BMW M6, and I've owned exclusively electrics since 2018 (on my second Tesla), would never go back to gas. Electrics are better in 95% of use cases, not to mention much much cheaper to own. Virtually no maintenance other than tires. Much more fun to drive, much faster acceleration. A Rivian pickup truck would absolutely dust most Audi sports cars off the line, which is a hilarious concept but true... Compare it to an Audi R8, their fastest car (which STARTS at $161k, more than twice the cost of a Rivian). I'm also long Rivian and long Tesla.

WickedPras

The greatest trick that the EV car makers pulled is convincing people to buy more expensive cars!! The EV car market is going to keep increasing the average price of ICE cars as well.

Serth21

Pretty sure it STARTS at like 75k... I know a lot of wealthy people in my field and almost all of them buy cheaper trucks or have crazy $ and just buy fully loaded ICE trucks because they don't want to deal with the annoyances of electric. The only people I know that would like to deal with electric because they're more tech savvy or into the EV idea CANNOT afford a 75k truck haha. They are buying a model 3 and begrudgingly making payments on it. I travel all over Florida and have seen maybe 2. I think for most people, they can deal with either the annoyances of EV or the high price (75k lol) of a nice vehicle but not both.

thzmand

After what happened in Buffalo you can't just rest your faith in a single technology, much less one that is above ground (wires) and gridded together. Natural gas is a very useful infrastructure that's here, and while it's not perfect, neither are the latest tech solutions and demands to simply electrify everything. The performance of electric vehicles during the Buffalo catastrophe is a whole other massive weak point waiting to lead to vulnerabilities when ICE engines are clamped down on. But we are blessed with some really amazing, reliable tech that everyone should want to keep.

Serth21

Agreed, I think Rivians are just way too expensive for what you get, right now. Especially when the point of the vehicle is to go from a to b, and in a truck's case, carry/tow. IT has a lot of expensive gimmicks and is just too new to be "worth it" imho. If you're not wealthy wealthy to the point where the price doesn't matter I think an older ICE truck is a much more reasonable purchase if you want/need a truck.

Altar_Quest_Fan

All part of the plan mate. Those rich wealthy globalist elites who fly around the world in private jets and lecture poor people (read: YOU!) about the “dangers of climate change” don’t want you to pollute the air with an ICE vehicle, so yeah prices have gone up exponentially. What, you thought Biden getting us not the Paris Accord wasn’t gonna have ANY impact whatsoever on our fuel and car prices? Lolololol

McKoijion

I don’t know how Capital.com derives their numbers, but it seems fine to me. Also, there are a bunch of futures quotes, such as those from the Intercontinental Exchange (ICE). You’d have to pay TDA to get access though. Furthermore, it’s the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME) that does futures like ES. It’s not the Chicago Board of Options Exchange (CBOE), which does options like those on SPX. All of these quotes are basically the same. If you’re running a high frequency trading algo, then quickly exploiting small differences is where you make your money. But if you’re a regular human trader, then all of them should be the same on a second to second basis, if not a millisecond to millisecond one. That’s the value market makers provide to the market. They’re just middle men so we don’t have to spend too much time thinking about this stuff.

ShadowLiberal

Besides that, Tesla's other big advantage is they're already making only BEV's, while the traditional automakers are still mainly making ICE vehicles, meaning they still have a lot of work to do transitioning to BEV's. ICE vehicles are clearly going to die out. A lot of countries are outlawing the sale of them after 2030 to 2035, but even without such laws the demand for ICE vehicles is clearly going to collapse overtime. The price of EV's has consistently gone down overtime as batteries (the biggest expense in an EV) become cheaper. And EV's have cheaper fuel than ICE vehicles. This means that sooner or later you're going to be an idiot who's throwing money away if you insist on buying an ICE vehicle when an equivalent EV is available for the same or an even cheaper upfront sticker price. Economics are going to let EV's win out. But if you're mainly making ICE vehicles today, and aren't making a profit off of the EV's you do sell as of yet (like Ford for example) this makes transitioning to EV's very difficult. If you transition too soon you're likely going to become unprofitable (due to the loss of your profitable ICE vehicle sales) and start bleeding money. But if you transition too late, after consumer demand has shifted heavily towards EVs, then a lot of your loyal customers are going to look elsewhere when you can't provide them with an EV, so your sales (and profits) are going to plummet. Worse yet, on average it takes 3 years to bring a new vehicle model to the market, so if an automaker finds themselves in this situation they're probably already dead in the water at that point, barring a government bailout. In my opinion at least some of the traditional automakers are almost certainly going to go bankrupt due to failing to transition to EV's. This is what consistently happens throughout history when this sort of major disruption occurs in an industry. If I had to guess who's most likely to go under I'd put a lot of Japanese automakers at the top of that list, since they've been the most stubborn at refusing to shift to EV's.

carsonthecarsinogen

Toyota has made it very clear they don’t want to be the number one automaker in the world anymore. They won’t be gone, but they won’t be growing ever again imo. They still think people go from ICE to hybrid then EV. When in reality EVs are of far better value now given the rebates. Luckily the ridiculous nepotism has left the company and a seemingly competent ceo is in place now. Still going to take years before they are making quality EVs at scale.

wolfhound1793

"just another car company" people know nothing about the car industry. The legacy automakers don't make their car parts, they design them and then assemble the cars. They outsource all of the parts to subcontractors who take all of the profit margins and none of the risks. Tesla meanwhile is almost completely vertically integrated and keeps all of the profit margins for the car they produce. This means they can sell far fewer cars and make far more profit. The second thing is that legacy automakers are legally not allowed to sell direct to consumer and have exclusive contracts with dealerships to sell their cars. This further puts constraints on their profit margins and limits their ability to adapt to market forces. Look at the last two years, dealerships were selling cars far above MSRP and the legacy automakers saw none of those additional profits. Tesla and the other new automakers have found ways around the laws against direct to consumer sales so are able to keep all of the profit margins from dealerships and get to benefit from all of the market forces that drive up prices. This is the eternal weakness of all franchise models dialed up to 11. Third, EV cars have a completely different supply chain compared to ICE cars and it is very expensive to set up, but the incremental costs are very low for manufacturing. As compared to ICE cars where most of the cost per car is in the incremental costs. Most of this is in the complexity of ICE cars compared to EVs which translates into large part counts and large labor costs for ICE cars vs. EVs. This will make it easier to fully automate an EV plant where you'll always need high skill, highly paid employees for an ICE factory. Finally, EVs companies don't have union expenses, pension expenses, legacy employer costs, etc. This adds a lot of overhead that legacy automakers have to pay that brand new companies don't. It is easier to be a 20 year old company vs. a 100+ year old company.

PM_ME_DANK

Not to blow up your replies but something else to consider - right now legacy car manufacturers off-set the losses of their EV divisions by selling profitable ICE vehicles. However, as the world transitions to EVs (1.2 million sold globally in 2017 - 10.6 million in 2022, 92% CAGR) will ICE vehicles be able to maintain their profitability? Will enough consumers still want to buy ICE cars 5 years from now? Every EV they sell at a loss steals a sale from a profitable ICE. Margins are already thin in the auto industry and if there’s a big shift in demand to EVs those margins that legacy manufacturers are counting on to prop up their EV segments will no longer be there

ShadowLiberal

The only new type of battery that's anywhere close to market today that doesn't use Lithium is Sodium-Ion, and BYD is reportedly going to unveil the first ever sodium-ion battery car in the next few months, it'll be a low range commuter vehicle (which is a more common EV in China). That said, while Sodium is cheaper and more plentiful then Lithium, Sodium-Ion batteries are NOT going to replace Lithium batteries for several reasons: * There's too much demand for EV's for any one type of battery to fulfill all of the demand. This is part of why there was projected to be a big Lithium shortage in the coming years. * Sodium-Ion is heavier and can't hold as much power as Lithium batteries. There's not really a better material for power storage then Lithium, this is a problem for every alternate. In order to get the same range from Sodium-Ion batteries as Lithium ones you'll need more space for the batteries and need to add more weight to the vehicle (making the vehicle less efficient). * Because of the above, Lithium batteries like LFP will likely be the dominant choice in the higher end vehicle markets, and segments where people need more range. Sodium-Ion is more likely to be a choice for cheaper vehicles made more for day to day commuting then long road trips. That said, Sodium-Ion batteries **are** very likely to replace Lithium based batteries when it comes to power storage (like for solar farms, etc.), because it's cheaper, and the added weight doesn't really introduce any new problems with lost efficiency or limited space. That said full disclosure, I'm an ALB investor. I bought into it at basically the perfect time at COVID lows. Kind of wishing I had sold at over $300 some months ago, but ALB is a long term holding for me. IMO I think they're going to grow an insane amount by 2030 when IMO ICE vehicles will be almost completely dead in the new car market.

LostAbbott

That is just for batteries. All the wiring throughout the car requires at least 3x the amount of copper of what an ICE car requires. There is not enough copper currently being produced to accommodate that increase, never mind everything else we use copper for. Too many people are focused on the RE stuff and not enough on the basic shit. The EPA and all of the other crap makes it take 10 years to build a copper mine in the US and just about as long in the "developed" world. There is just no way to build all of this stuff with out significant change, and no one is currently planning for it. Shit is crazy, I am just going to go buy more SCCO, because there is no world in which I don't see copper sky rocketing in value.

creemeeseason

1) near term who knows. Long term, I think there are a lot of tailwinds for oil for the next 10 years. 2) I think EVs are the future, but much ICE vehicles are still 95% of vehicles sold. Those cars will be on the road for years. Also trucks, planes, and ships ...there is a lot of demand out there. It will take awhile, imo. Plus all the infrastructure upgrades needed will be a challenge. 3) oil is very important. It effects everything we do right now 4) pass 5) SHEL is not one of my favorites because Europe is really tough on its energy companies. I imagine it'll be similar to XOM, not many surprises. 6) OPEC cut production causing supply worries. Crude inventories are also down, which usually leads to higher prices. So who knows?!

MissDiem

Same here. I don't buy the kneejerk bloviation that EVs constitution is somehow splitting the atom. It's yanking out a bunch of very heavy and expensive parts and dropping in a couple of other fairly well proven components. It doesn't need to be that hard or expensive. And we have living proof of this. Ford, Hyundai, Kia, and a couple others already build and sell hybrids, which contain dual drive components. They sell them for as little as $1400 extra (retail) and they still make nice profit per unit. That can be incremental-ized (my word). Gradually crank up the battery/DC motor portion of these while shrinking the ICE part, continue to milk profits while source costs go down. Follow the path that saw us go from $12,000 precious and fragile plasma tvs to the current led displays that are modular and so cheap they're practically disposable.

utb040713

Exactly. I hate hearing stuff like "these millennials just won't buy anything cheap nowadays!" from people like Dave Ramsey, citing things like the increase in average home size. It's like sure, "back in your day" there were plenty of affordable 1100 sq ft starter homes. Good luck finding that now in an area that isn't derelict and crime-ridden. Same with cars. I would gladly buy a no-frills car with a simple ICE for my next car, but how many low-mileage cars nowadays *don't* have a touch screen, entertainment system, etc.?

mythrilcrafter

Reminds me of a few weeks ago when the EPA announced how they're directing all automotive manufacturers to have a 50/50 product breath of ICE/EV by 2030 and so people were panicking thinking that it is an unexpected and out-of-nowhere directive that no one could have foreseen.... despite the face that the EPA openly announced that they would say that like 6 months prior...