SPY

RunsOnJava98

It’s better to buy SPY instead of gold in the long run. Good is only worth it during times on economic uncertainty.

based_pinata

2% in a day has happened with SPY and this guys asking about BTC moving that much

Fbastiat1850

>In the US wages haven't kept up with house prices/ car prices but that's why you gotta invest your cash into $SPY. So wages haven't kept up with inflation, but you assume the average joe has excess cash to invest. interesting...

Cric1313

Yep, must have triggered a financial advisor somewhere out there. They will tell you themselves their “goal” is to outperform SPY by maybe a 1%. Well guess where that percent goes…

SilentPhanto

Inflation isn't a disease though. Sure things become more expensive over time but wages should go up as a result. In the US wages haven't kept up with house prices/ car prices but that's why you gotta invest your cash into $SPY. Inflation has been around 2-4% on average since the 1960s here in the U.S. if your living in a country where inflation is 50% or higher you, may need to leave your country bc that would mean that something else it wrong with that county like Zimbabwe or Argentina. If BTC ever becomes a currency then it would be a wild world in which one day you could be down 20% or up 20%. For speculation that would be a great thing but as a currency that's not something that you would want. Uncertainty isn't your friend. I just use BTC to do international transactions and hold onto some for speculation. From what I've noticed when my ppl get sent the BTC they don't wait and keep it in BTC. They automatically convert it to their own currency bc they don't like the fact that the price of BTC is uncertain. TLDR; Sure inflation is bad but uncertainty is worse.

whaddayawantnow

If SPY falls, BTC will fall more and alts will fall even more. BTC.D will go up. The patterns BTC made during the biggest period of money printing we've ever seen are no indicator of how it will act in the future without all that extra cash flowing in.

MeetingBrilliant

Bitcoin will is the most valuable asset u can park ur money in..800 in btc is better than 800 in SPY or VOO or a mutual fund

transatoshi

Some SPY shares to hedge the BTC

oarabbus

just like clockwork again, SPY drops ~1.5% and BTC follows almost exactly. Disappointing for the inflation hedge narrative.

Soil_Electronic

SPY down -2% since yesterday it's getting awful

Soil_Electronic

SPY took a hard beating down over -1%

DAMG808

Yeah for sure. YOu can't take anythign with you when we go. only leave somethign behind. And as mentioned best is not all those 10%-20% into Crypto, some good old Dividend Stocks / ETF's like SPY or VOO make a lot of sense to mitigate risks.

RockEmSockEmRabi

She also said God dictates her trading and her funds have performed significantly worse than the SPY index. She got lucky with Tesla and road it into the sunset

mricecream429

ETF plus I think stocks need to be performing well too - maybe SPY in ATH territory first

FreitasAlan

These statements are not incompatible or even common. There are many things that are not trading and also not SPY or ETFs. Even if buying an ETF, SPY is not an ESG ETF. Even if buying an S&P500 ETF, you can also buy one that tracks an equal weight S&P 500 index. Even I though I have BTC and don’t recommend doing any of the above, straw men don’t help much.

pushandpullandLEGSSS

I'm still 98% in SPY at the moment, but planning to put future cash into crypto so it swings the other way.

pushandpullandLEGSSS

98% in SPY. 2% in Crypto, but slowly transitioning over.

ProjectZeus

Bitcoin isn't in competition with the SPY500. A healthy portfolio has both

Peach-555

This is about Bitcoin specifically, but to answer your question about examples for something more risky than crypto in general. Binary options, leveraged funds, stock in companies in financial distress, investing in a private company, shorting SPY, junk bonds. Using financial instruments where it's possible to lose more than the principal.

TheRationalMan

I think we need to look at the equity market, which is showing signs of topping right now. If the QQQ or SPY crashes 10-20%, no way BTC avoids also going down the same 20% or more and altcoins will bleed further.

Sensitive-Tie4696

I'll tell you what I like to do. I like to put down a grand on every stock or cryptocurrency that looks promising and leave it there. I also look for brands that are becoming household names. Things people are excited about. Whether that's something in tech, finance, healthcare, and other categories. I've learned the hard way to just leave money on things after making the mistake of removing it. If I was elderly or becoming elderly, I'd move the money into an S&P index fund. The most basic of which is SPY. Average annualized returns were 11%(CAGR) for the last 30 years.

Peach-555

I don't think those are particularly good points against regular ETFs. The point about dilution, a company creating shares as a form of compensation or paying the money equivalent instead is functionally the same, 100 more shares $1 each with $100 more in the treasury. The shareholders are holding a smaller percentage of a larger pie but they don't lose money, raising capital by issuing shares is also preferable for shareholders if that capital is not wasted. Companies can also reduce the amount of outstanding shares by buying them back. The true cost of holding SPY is the \~0.1% expense ratio and potentially income taxes on dividends, SPY itself is not. ETFs being biased or complicated is also easy to circumvent, Total Stock Market ETF gets all the US companies and a basic World ETF tracks the world economy. Brokerage accounts automatically keep track of all the ETFs, cost basis, returns, dividends and taxation. People can choose one or more of the categories they support and buy an ETF to support it if they want. If potentially bad companies is a reason to avoid ETFs, then potentially good companies are also a reason to invest in ETFs as well. Unless all companies are bad, holding an ETF gives some money to the ETF company, but the same is true for the Crypto Exchange company, some which are in the ETFs themselves, there is no way to convert cash into any investment without direct contact with companies.

transatoshi

It's not correlated until it is, just wait for some more massive moves by SPY and we shall follow methinks.

Toyake

6-12 month emergency fund. Save for a down payment on a house. 80% in SPY 10% in HYSA to take advantage of market downturns. 10% into high risk investments. This is your btc/eth crypto gamble.

Stoopiddogface

Institutional $ has rules to follow and must prove stewardship for their investors... An institutional fund manager cant just ape into an unregulated, emerging market with outrageous volatility... The ETFs aren't the same instrument as the crypto. At least from an investment designation. The spot BTC us an ETF, same category as SPY or IWM. So it's easier for them to allocate and account for.

HappyMongday

Overlay the data with the stock market/SPY and we will see usuable information?

eggaholic69

"Even" CNBC, and while they are corrupt, they know how an ETF works. The multi-trillion dollar figures are not about blackrock putting it on their balance sheet, but about the onramp, the volume, and not the seeding. Still, you overlook that ETFs have holdings. For example, SPY is a fund with $407 Billion in holdings of S&P stocks - and that doesn't go on the ETF wrapper's balance sheet. But that's irrelevant here because this is spot, and rather than doing any seeding, they are using coinbase. So it's really just an NYSE-Coinbase bridge. Since it's easy to transfer between real crypto exchanges, it's really a bridge to all the crypto exchanges, and the price will be consistent among them all. Only 1.9 million bitcoins are on all exchanges right now and much less are on active limit orders. The bridge will make a huge impact on volume and I think a 1.5+ trillion infusion over the next few years after the etf is approved is likely.

Bitwise_Gamgee

Pay your house off, +dollar or +yen, -CAD or -EUR, +SPY, +Crude I wouldn't touch bitcoin right now

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

Thin-Tap3836

SPY is automatically 6-15% worse in actual returns that it shows because of inflation and fiat prints

Thin-Tap3836

BTC has and should continue to drastically outperform SPY

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

waitingonawait

Have some copy pasta. This guy words it better than i ever could. *There's 4 big problems that I see with ETF's and I fully believe they will be at the heart of some future financial crisis.* *The 1st is that everybody is in them. Literally, ask anyone you know what is in their retirement portfolio, and 99% of the time it's almost all put into one of two things: an index-tracking ETF like SPY, VOO, or VTI, or some target retirement date mutual fund. If it's the latter, ask them what's in the fund - they'll probably have no clue, but guess what; i can guarantee it overlaps HEAVILY with those same broad ETFs. Look at the Vanguard Target Retirement 2060 Fund, which is what a lot of millenials would probably be in; 54% of its holdings are just sitting in another fund, the "Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Institutional Plus Shares." The end result of all this is that virtually every single person on the planet super heavily invested into the same set of shares; AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, GOOG, NVDA, TSLA, BRK.B...you get the idea.* *The second is that literally nobody gets how these things work. Even the financial advisors who tout them as a sure thing don't have a clue what the mechanics of these things are. Besides all the operational shorting, something that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that a lot of them have liquidity multipliers that are used as part of allocations. Basically, they are built specifically to have only the most liquid securities, so that they can trade in mass (which is important for issuers because the fees are so low). The result of this, again, is that they are less diverse than you think - the same highly liquid securities are among the top holdings in almost any ETF you find.* *The 3rd thing is, they keep being presented to investors as diverse and "safe", when that couldn't be further from the truth. If nearly every single investor has a huge chunk of their savings in the same top 20 stocks, how is that diverse? You know how there's this weird phenomenon, that fund managers can no longer beat the market for more than a year or 2? That wasn't always the case. It's not that the fund managers suddenly all got bad at it at the same time; it's that these broad market index funds are carrying more risk than anyone cares to admit. More risk = higher returns, but when the market truly turns, its gonna be insane because whether you are selling SPY, VOO, or a retirement fund, you are selling the same shares as everyone else in the world.* *And 4th. The operational shorting. Watch Richard Evans on YouTube if you haven't, because he explains it really well. One of the reasons you have insane short interest and FTDs on ETFs is because AP's have learned to delay the purchase of shares. If there is some systemic event that creates a liquidity crunch in the underlying stocks, I could see the ETFs just straight up breaking.* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncq35zrFCAg&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncq35zrFCAg&t=1s) *It's terrifying and kind of mind-boggling if I'm being honest how we got to this point. It reminds me a lot of the MBS's that were being sold in mass leading up to 2008 - everyone keeps saying - "look, over time they always go up." Only its even worse because this time it's not just banks buying the bags of shit, it's basically everyone who has a retirement account. It's so strange to me how self-assured everyone is that the safest thing you can do is DCA into the SPY and never look back. They say things like "statistically this beats everything in the long run" - but if past results don't predict future returns why is this different? What makes everyone so damn confident?*

HaveRewengey

BTC has certainly demonstrated that it has the potential to be revolutionary, but nobody can predict what will happen next year, let alone 20 years into the future. I think going all in on BTC is risky, as there is a tiny tiny chance it fails (would be a black swan), but asymmetric to the upside in actual opportunity. I just sleep better knowing that if one of the assets I own goes to 0, it won't wipe me out and I have to start again. Likewise, I wouldn't put 100% into SPY either. I'd want some Gold, Uranium etc...

Sprano024

Wonder if they can pay spy's in bitcoin yet? Or better yet pay for spy's with SPY.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

DontDieSenpai

I firmly believe adoption will increase exponentially before I am ready to retire. I also sincerely believe the games being played with fiat are unsustainable and that this will have nigh apocalyptic consequences for all traditional assets. And I don't see any other solution to this problem other than bitcoin. An argument can be made it is riskier in the short-term, but long-term I think bitcoin has proven itself to be the strongest asset out there by far. I have zero faith in the current system, so I guess that's my biggest hurdle to DCAing into SPY for instance.

whaddayawantnow

SPY sub 400 ( maybe even 340-370) will have BTC make a new lower low.

DontDieSenpai

But what would the benefits of DCAing minimal amounts of money into both SPY and BTC specifically? As opposed to stacking as much bitcoin as I can afford?

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

myxyplyxy

It could be. Simply DCA into two strategies. SPY and BTC

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Legendary investor Michael Burry has taken a "big short" position against the stock market by purchasing 40,000 put options contracts tied to SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust (SPY) and Invesco QQQ Trust (QQQ), with a combined nominal value of $1.6 billion. However, it has been revealed that Burry is currently down 42% on his short bet. It is unclear whether Burry is still holding the positions, as there has been no update on his holdings data since June 30. The puts could indicate that Burry is feeling bearish about the two flagship index funds, which are impacted by large-cap stocks such as Tesla and Nvidia. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR. Try our free crypto chatbot at https://chat.coinfeeds.io*

waitingonawait

Lol simplifies. Doesn't really look that 'simple'. I'm not claiming to have some great understanding of how they work specifically either, just saying i straight up don't trust them, or the people who tout them as a guarantee. I'll copy out a comment that words it better than i could ever hope to. *There's 4 big problems that I see with ETF's and I fully believe they will be at the heart of some future financial crisis.* *The 1st is that everybody is in them. Literally, ask anyone you know what is in their retirement portfolio, and 99% of the time it's almost all put into one of two things: an index-tracking ETF like SPY, VOO, or VTI, or some target retirement date mutual fund. If it's the latter, ask them what's in the fund - they'll probably have no clue, but guess what; i can guarantee it overlaps HEAVILY with those same broad ETFs. Look at the Vanguard Target Retirement 2060 Fund, which is what a lot of millenials would probably be in; 54% of its holdings are just sitting in another fund, the "Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund Institutional Plus Shares." The end result of all this is that virtually every single person on the planet super heavily invested into the same set of shares; AAPL, MSFT, AMZN, GOOG, NVDA, TSLA, BRK.B...you get the idea.* *The second is that literally nobody gets how these things work. Even the financial advisors who tout them as a sure thing don't have a clue what the mechanics of these things are. Besides all the operational shorting, something that a lot of people don't seem to realize is that a lot of them have liquidity multipliers that are used as part of allocations. Basically, they are built specifically to have only the most liquid securities, so that they can trade in mass (which is important for issuers because the fees are so low). The result of this, again, is that they are less diverse than you think - the same highly liquid securities are among the top holdings in almost any ETF you find.* *The 3rd thing is, they keep being presented to investors as diverse and "safe", when that couldn't be further from the truth. If nearly every single investor has a huge chunk of their savings in the same top 20 stocks, how is that diverse? You know how there's this weird phenomenon, that fund managers can no longer beat the market for more than a year or 2? That wasn't always the case. It's not that the fund managers suddenly all got bad at it at the same time; it's that these broad market index funds are carrying more risk than anyone cares to admit. More risk = higher returns, but when the market truly turns, its gonna be insane because whether you are selling SPY, VOO, or a retirement fund, you are selling the same shares as everyone else in the world.* *And 4th. The operational shorting. Watch Richard Evans on YouTube if you haven't, because he explains it really well. One of the reasons you have insane short interest and FTDs on ETFs is because AP's have learned to delay the purchase of shares. If there is some systemic event that creates a liquidity crunch in the underlying stocks, I could see the ETFs just straight up breaking.* *It's terrifying and kind of mind-boggling if I'm being honest how we got to this point. It reminds me a lot of the MBS's that were being sold in mass leading up to 2008 - everyone keeps saying - "look, over time they always go up." Only its even worse because this time it's not just banks buying the bags of shit, it's basically everyone who has a retirement account. It's so strange to me how self-assured everyone is that the safest thing you can do is DCA into the SPY and never look back. They say things like "statistically this beats everything in the long run" - but if past results don't predict future returns why is this different? What makes everyone so damn confident?*

LordBlack55

It’s an asset allocation tool that makes it easy to take an allocation - lots of people buy SPY ETF vs part and parcels into 500 different stocks - No need for wallets , Meta mask/ it’s going mainstream /the amount of money that will go into these ETF’s will be the Next paradigm

enterusername34

>d SPY dow btc is a risk-on asset with tiny MC, spy not so much The fact that btc is not pumping as a risk asset is telling you where we are in the cycle and that the spy is likely yet to correct further. Risk assets and commodities like gold generally recover at the tail end of recessions, not going into them.

Fuzzyfoot12345

Im in it for the long haul, but damn SPY almost at ATH again and bitcoin is half its previous ATH. It followed SPY down, but hasnt recovered as well (that being said I was able to DCA more than I planned on).

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

ceterispari

Potentially, but grayscale have at least some level of first movers advantage. Look at SPY and GLD. AUM attracts AUM. Your statement could be correct though!

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

TarkovRedditor

Benjamin Cowen predicted 20k to hold then it dumped to 15k thanks to FTX. He then predicted 12-14k after that and it shot straight up to 30k. He also predicted BTC dominance to go to 80% and after a year it didn’t even get to 60% and is now on a decline He also predicted the SPY to fall due earning season and the tech sector hit an almost new ATH Him predicting 23k basically means it can be anything but that lmao

Successful_Craft3076

In particular, Scion held $886.56 million worth of put options against the SPDR S&P 500 ETF Trust (NYSEARCA: SPY) at the end of the second quarter. SPY tracks the S&P 500 Index and is the largest ETF in the U.S. measured by assets under management. Burry’s firm also had $738.84 million in put options against the Invesco QQQ Trust Series 1 (NASDAQ: QQQ), an ETF that follows the Nasdaq-100.

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

Valuable_Artichoke44

>If you dollar cost averaged the same amount everyday into Bitcoin this year you are currently -2%. Diversifying has always been a great idea. SPY500 was around +16% YTD a week or 2 ago.

MaxSmart1981

i mean, if you're being serious, just split between SPY and VOO or something like that.

Working-Elderberry43

a monkey could make money by buying and holding SPY. Literally a few mouse clicks to open an account, set up auto-draft and auto-invest and earn 7% a year... no education needed

truckstop_sushi

Simply not true, have you seen the data from dating apps (Bumble, Hinge, Match)? it's not even debatable that females hate bitcoin because it's a clear sign of someone who is for some reason avoiding traditional wealth management via passive index investing which make even normal middle class people millionaires over a 30 year working career of investing even a small amount of you paycheck into SPY

heavenswordx

The financial industry did a really good job of preaching that ETF = best way to invest by DCAing into it. Having a BTC etf becomes the ‘best way’ for non crypto native to get exposure and there’ll be a small but steady stream of people who’ll put a small part of their paycheck into btc etf monthly , causing a consistent buying pressure. Similar to what’s happening for SPY index funds

Zigxy

LOL the stock market outperformed gold since 2003 anyway. **SPY has 7x** since 2003 (with dividends reinvested). Without dividends reinvested it would "only" be 5.6x

storyofacow

100k BTC and SPY5000 pretty reasonable by then. Too bad McChickens will be like $5 by then too

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

TroubleInMyMind

SPY is forming a massive 5 year double top and this sub treats an impending bull rub like written gospel. I know it's just circle jerk moon farming but the pain has not even begun folks.

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

tylermm03

I like your idea, I think an ETH or even general crypto index sort of like an index fund such as SPY would be awesome. The problem is you need to trust the people running the fund not to screw you, it would need to have monthly audits to ensure that they actually have the tokens that they’re claiming to and aren’t just lying to you. You may also run into some regulatory road blocks in some countries depending on how it’s set up.

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is a ETF con-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

ItsAllJustASickGame

It would've affected after hours, first of all. Secondly, SPY is down .08% on the day. Evergrande was NOT why crypto crashed.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is a ETF pro-argument written by Maleficent_Plankton. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find submissions for other topics.

Soil_Electronic

SPY up, BTC down we ain't having it

Ninja_Gogen

Sure, this was a small dip amplified by the fact that we haven't had one in months. That being said, it's clear which direction the momentum is traveling now. Also, September tends to be bad for stocks and if Bitcoin is still following SPY/Nasdaq...not good.