SPY

Soil_Electronic

Green candles it is looks like SPY 500 is testing highs today so BTC should do that too

Soil_Electronic

Imho we’ll see SPY at 420$ before real pullback

Dfranco123

Dovish FED, SPY breaking out of key resistance levels, 15 month Bear market…

zac47812

Because all of the Fed rate hike nonsense is finally priced in. And while nothing Powell said was particularly bullish - he did say that inflation is coming down and things look good. Basically said he didn't want to ease up yet prematurely, but that their was light at the end of the tunnel. To me, that's as bullish as it's been in recently memory. Granted, these post meeting pumps or dumps happen all the time - so it could easily all bleed back out tomorrow. Or it could launch a mini rally for SPY and Crypto, WHO KNOWS.

birmingslam

Idk the line looks just like the SPY

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

SigSalvadore

There are plenty of Hedge Funds shorting the SPY atm; crypto will follow suit.

Brave-Bet-5183

The hivemind “anti-fed” sentiment is severely under appreciated!! So many of us!! With the coming dedollarization in the East and digital tokenizaion of real world markets within the next 2-5 years as they regulate and choose infrastructure, along with the sanctions hitting Russia, I’d hope BTC sees break away from DXY/SPY and it’s golden purpose shines as verifiable digital gold++ Not to mention exchanges printing their own BTC and the tether crypto cartel fractional reserve banking system that’s waiting to bust. If the dominos ever topple that’s a lot of stablecoins/exchange coins I imagine being rotated back into BTC

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

oreipele1940

lol and how would they have "internationally diversified investments"? I would be surprised if one told me that the answer to "Do you hold some broadly diversified stock ETF like SPY IVV VTI etc?" among old Lebanese was other than "dafuq?" (In Arabic) for 0.1% of them. My family members are mostly university-educated people in a peaceful country where financial infrastructure to hold foreign investments exist (i.e. they CAN but these ETFs if they wanted, they CAN create multiple broker accounts, the mainstream services EXIST in their country, etc.) and they do not do it because it is completely outside their domain of competence. But old Lebanese, in a war torn country, should easily have a shock proof portfolio? Lol. These reasonings are why many people see no use to bitcoin. They live in another universe, an universe where everybody has a 401k a Roth IRA a Vanguard/Fidelity account and a superb financial planning understanding. And a job paying 100k dollars/year, after all that is a very common salary range worldwide.

Maxx3141

This is only because companies are forced to report unrealized losses as actual losses. But then also pretty nice: >Those gains and losses total out to a net negative of $140 million, nearly 10 percent of the company’s initial investment. Incredibly, that number actually outperforms the traditional stock market — $SPY, an ETF tied to the S&P 500, dropped over 18% during that same period.

TheDoge420

crypto stocks: COIN, HOOD, tech stocks: RUM, inverse etf's: SQQQ and etf's: SPY

AttorneyOfThanos25

I'm all for adding, but I would be careful given your circumstances. I'd take maybe 10k and put it between ETH,BTC and ONE Alt you like. And the other 20k in VTI,SCHD,SPY etc.

unowhut4

What's even worse that NO ONE is talking about is how Bitcoin mirrors the SPY when it's open two completely separate entities are identical every single trading day

fedex11

SPY and VOO both track the S&P500 index. VOO has a 0.03% expense ratio and SPY has a 0.09% expense ratio. For a buy and hold investor, you should buy VOO. Options traders prefer to use SPY since it has higher volume generally. As for other options, VT is a great all-in-one option with exposure to virtually all US and international stocks at a ~60/40 split. Many prefer more exposure to US stocks and opt to buy VTI for total US market and VXUS total international market at their preferred weight. As you approach retirement, you should also consider exposure to the bond market. BND is a good option there.

WildWest_Trade

It's crazy how much inflation has affected the value of our money. It is quite literally theft and as someone pointed out, had that same money been put into an SPY Index, it would have gone up 200x. That 200x is directly proportional to how much the value of the dollar has gone down. The money has been stolen from ordinary people to enrich the investor class. An abhorrent fraud that only continues to this day.

SoftPenguins

I would put half of it into shares of an index fund like SPY or QQQ put 40% into savings and 10% into Crypto. Crypto is far too risky to be buying whole bitcoins on 60K a year. I know some people here would take on more risk but when it comes to family it’s best not to fuck around. Regulation is going to change the entire crypto landscape and that is an enormous unknown I’m not personally willing to spend half years salary speculating on. To each their own. We all have different risk profiles, taking investment advice from biased strangers on the internet probably isn’t the best course of action. Good luck! 🍀

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

Despaciito

My guess is algos triggered mass selloff once SPY went below 400 Totally organic 🤡

SpamsNiceThings

I think you forget that crypto in its entirety is an extreme high risk asset to own. There is a reason people cheer if you beat the SPY annually. People here expect to 10x the SPY annual each year at a minimum. Even if I’m young, I’m sticking to the projects that have scraped out a niche for themselves here.

Schwammosaurus_Rex

OP is joking about hedge fund returns but not investing in SPY and co for the long run is also pretty ignorant and stupid imo. I'm still not trying to convince people in real life, unless I see friends and family fall for scams or dodgy financial "advisors". If you think it through, there are basically no possible outcomes where you will be seen as the winner. Even if you win, people would just bother you more or be jealous of your wealth.

Schwammosaurus_Rex

This, and this also applies to other investments than crypto. OP is joking about hedge fund returns but not investing in SPY and co for the long run is also pretty ignorant and stupid imo.

CleazyCatalystAD

“Don’t get crypto’d” (while at $15.7-16.5k) and “anyone owning some of these tokens like Litecoin and Solana is an idiot”(while at $8) on TV for all was maybe the best “inverse Cramer” ever, and that’s saying a lot. There was an “Inverse Cramer” ETF created last year that did +15%, while the SPY went -10-15%. Nuts.

Vezuvio

I’ve made more returns investing in blockchain the last 10 years than i’ve made invested in the SPY for the last 40 years. I wish you all the wealth and happiness in the world. I will not waste any time arguing here.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

Own-Struggle4145

BTC was around 35k-40k in April May last year while SPY was also around 400 points before the whole crypto industry saw several disasters. I think retracing to 35k-40k would simply be moving back to where BTC would have been hovering if several scandals hadn’t happened. It’s a little odd that some people are calling the current circumstances pumps or bull runs, as if crypto can only do one of two things, bull run or crash. 2023 should see a general trend back up to what would have been normal prices.

Eccentricc

You wouldn't be doing bad if you just bought ETH/SPY. the biggest ETFs are still down 20% from their highs. That's quite a lot. That's way more money than the entire marketcap than maybe bitcoins

Gamer543

I think it has to do with subpar earnings resulting in sell side pressure for SPY driving it’s price down. Crypto seems intrinsically tied to the performance of SPY so it’s sell off resulted in a market dump for crypto. not to mention btc has shown vertical price movement for the last 2 weeks which is unsustainable so this could also be a result of a cooldown in its price action and a correction of sorts

Morgwic

Yeah it's possible. Just depends on what SPY is gonna do pretty much.

Seann27

Oof, stock market getting rekt. SPY got harshly rejected at 400. The nasdaq also tanking due to poor earnings from microsoft, tesla is on deck today. Will be interesting to see how crypto is impacted

Dazzling_Marzipan474

I think crypto will have a large global impact one day. I don't know too too much about it but way more than the average person. I invest in SPY in the whole market and couldn't name 98% of the companies. Who cares as long as 🚀🚀🚀

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

kakkesugi

that was moreso a prayer for tomorrow but it looks like it may have already been answered looking at the SPY 😈😈😈

Gamer543

it’s funny because SPY is up for the day so I would’ve assumed that btc and eth would also be up but they’re both sorta crabwalking. I mean hey crabwalking is better than dumping but the last 2 weeks have conditioned me to want that green dildo dopamine hit lol

ohmygodbeats7

SPY just broke through the 400 wall. Hoping that means crypto is about to follow with BTC breaking through 23k!

Cypto_Spaniard

SPY > 4000 ----> BTC mooning

dragonch67

We are in the % numbers of precedent bear so the actual economy crisis did accelerate the bear a little, but it seems to have little to no impact on the final BTC value I personally expected some more capitulation and some new lows in the economic context, but after all, all we need for a economic recovery / bullrun is Putin stepping down. At this particular moment, the correlation between SPY and top crypto should shoot them back on the moon. But a question remains, will this bull be BTC halving economic in effect or just the hedge getting back on the train ? Either way, all central banks are lurking it, Blackrock is in it. Long-term guys, long term sounds gold.

Jocogui

I remember last summer people claiming that crypto decoupled from SPY and QQQ...I was like: oh yeah..sure bro.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

PMmeyourclit2

Sure. But by saying you’re a bag holder of SPY. You’re just admitting that people who hold cryptocurrency are even bigger bag holders. The point is, preserve capital and don’t lose money. But people in cryptocurrency subs seem like they love to take huge losses and they never set up stop losses or anything like that (hell some cryptocurrency exchanges are so shitty they literally don’t even have the option for top losses). Bag holding with a major index fund like SPY is pretty much impossible. But bag holding forever with cryptocurrency is basically a guaranteed in most cases. And might be all cases if Bitcoin doesn’t recover back to its 60k high…

KelownaVirus

MEANING that you are holding a big bag of SPY and wondering if it will pay off or evaporate.

Mr_Bob_Ferguson

With articles talking about “outperforming SPY” but failing to mention that it was only possible because of the massive 60%+ drops last year.

PMmeyourclit2

Just saying to recover from a 80% loss, or 60k down to $15k you need a 400% return… to get back 60k… Meanwhile the SPY dropped by around 20% which means it only needs 25% to return to previous highs… Which means… while sure, cryptocurrency might be performing better SINCE THE BOTTOM. It has to make up 16 TIMES THE GROUND that the SPY does before bag holders are back to even. LMFAO. Meaning, right now. If you bought on the top of both SPY and cryptocurrency markets… you’re 16 times worse off with crypto than stocks. The goal with investing is to not lose money. Since it’s so hard to recover it when you lose it.

vegetablewizard

SPY is up over 8% in the last 3 mo but JPow is still playing hardball so overall I expect the bear to continue. The world is always going to be falling apart from now on. Who knows what will happen

cosmomax

That is true, but if you DCA'd into BTC for the last year you would have more than if you DCA'd into SPY. I use those as benchmarks for my crypto and stock portfolios.

Magners17

I’m still pretty skeptical with this recent surge up in prices. It seems pretty unprecedented that we just keep going up. I’m keeping an eye on the SPY next week because if that takes a dump then I suspect crypto will see a decent retrace.

MLG_Ethereum

Head over to WSB and YOLO the 12k on SPY puts, problem solved

whaddayawantnow

Guess I'm just pessimistic on the macro economy through this year and no money printer going Brrr. On a TA basis , both BTC and SPY are hitting the top resistance trend lines of a major broadening decending wedge and BTC is just coming up to test a death cross on the Weekly chart.

LiathAnam

Stock market crash confirmed. Puts on SPY. Thanks

Environmental_Air930

how are we today? I got notification that SPY lost 390 and was sure that crypto took even bigger hit

TarkovReddit0r

I’m really curious about this tbh. While I totally agree that crypto followed the stock market through 2022 cooling off from the ATH bubble, we are now at a way lower price. The 18-20k support & crabbing before FTX was really strong even tho the stock market indexes hit new bottoms. With incoming earning reports it’s kind of expected to have a lot of bad numbers dumping stocks confirming a recession. With additional rate hikes this could lead to another bottom hit for the SPY so let’s see if BTC holds that range again

Morgwic

SPY is like dropping faster than BTC lol

verysillyman

I appreciate the only helpful answer so far! Agreed. On those fed days, all it takes is one pretty obvious trade to make your entire month. If the SPY is ripping high then going long for a couple of hours is almost automatic.

ShowtimerHD

I'm expecting 3500 SPY at the lowest this year and after that it's smooth sailing. I'm just adding more every check when I can

Grunblau

I buy on RH and transfer to Ledger. Best fees, okay spread. Nice to be able to move from $ to $SPY to BTC and back with only a network fee.

oouncolaoo

Apple makes up slightly less than 6% of SPY. Post earnings, APPL has, generally, moved approximately +/- 3.9%. Last earnings resulted in a 7.6% actual move (which is significantly greater than average). Keep in mind that APPL is also about 10% below its SMA200. What does this mean? Well, nobody can predict the future and past events/data do not necessarily accurately reflect what will happen this time. However, I would think that even a relatively big miss (something like the recent GOOGL 15.4% miss on EPS and 2.2% miss on revenue) is only going to result in a price drop of 8% or less. To be clear - GOOGL dropped more than that following it’s miss. However, the entire tech sector has already had a correct (though not necessarily the final correction). I am certainly not a guru or a soothsayer. But I would be surprised if SPY moved more than 3% following an AAPL earnings miss.

SigSalvadore

Apple's weight within the SPY is 6%; that's hefty. Something about dominos and house of cards. It's certainly not good if it happens. Market crash not in the sense of losing 50% value, but there will be a good deal of pain. Top 10 holdings in SPY Apple 5.98% Microsoft 5.33% Amazon 2.54% Berkshire 1.72% Alphabet class A 1.63% Alphabet class C 1.46% Exxon 1.4% UnitedHealth 1.39% Johnson&Johnson 1.37% NVIDIA 1.23%

BrotherAmazing

What did I say that was untrue that was a “dream”? If you honestly think they won’t raise the debt ceiling again, you could buy SPY Puts and become a multi-millionaire easily. Guarantee you they’ll raise the debt ceiling again, just like they always do in the end after getting a few concessions.

CleazyCatalystAD

No it does not. You are hypocritical as f***. I’ve had numerous equities that have “gone to zero” (effectively: 95-98%) during the past decade. Some of those were on SPY. So I guess those do not “steadily increase over time”, as you stated. I’m patient, though, I average down and most of those equities probably will go up over time, given enough time. This is based on the world wide policy of fiat monetary debasement. Fiat can and will eventually go to (close) to zero. Wake up.

fartigrade

That's fine, I don't live in the US either, but that's what moves the markets. Just overlay SPY on top of BTC D1 if you don't believe me. And the FED is still increasing rates, just at a slowing pace... that combined with jobless claims, bank earnings, etc. was all the juice needed for this rally. I would take profits though, we aren't out of the weeds yet.

QuicklyGoingSenile

Sorry, hopping on your comment cause I don't see the legit answer yet. The answer is institutional money runs crypto now and the holy benchmark is the S&P 500. Bitcoin does not reverse unless SPY does, hard stop

daripious

The SPY is up, that's it really.

openew

To piggy back on your thought process (e.g., short squeeze, combined with fomo, and bit of manipulation, etc), the reason "23% seems high" is that there was so much pent up emotion/demand, that it was bound to impulse higher than anyone thought. But, to add a bit more context to your question, part of the reason why there was the "sudden upturn in the market" was that is was... not sudden. 1. Everyone was preparing for this. They were holding on the sidelines, looking for the time to re-enter. 2. A lot of the TA signs fell into place. Although this sub doesn't like TA, since so many traders use it, esp the big money players, once that TA falls into place, it pulls money with it 3. SPY just passed a critical threshold today. It only passed that trend line by a tiny amount, but even the fact it went up, and through that months-long trend line meant there was energy behind it. So, once the market closed, all those traders switched over to crypto, and kept going. (If SPY had crashed today, for whatever reason, then crypto would not have run) 4. So what happens next, you may ask? I suspect SPY today fed into crypto. Then if crypto can sustain these highs over the 3-day weekend, then that energy will spill back into SPY, and it will start an even higher bull trap. then again, who knows.

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoqsv/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_conarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10af5f6/daily_general_discussion_january_13_2023_gmt0/).

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoqsv/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_conarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/109k9wk/daily_general_discussion_january_12_2023_gmt0/).

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoqsv/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_conarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/109k9wk/daily_general_discussion_january_12_2023_gmt0/).

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

Whole_Visible

At this point jobs data becomes more interesting. The commentary on stock subreddits reminds me of 2020 with how many were certain to see $SPY back to 2008 levels then the bitterness over the lack of a global financial collapse and they'd get rich buying the bottom. December unemployment down to 3.5%. I want to see that stray no higher than 4.5%

CointestMod

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoqsv/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_conarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/109k9wk/daily_general_discussion_january_12_2023_gmt0/).

CointestMod

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and