GBTC

moonRekt

I went for GBTC ETHE and GDLC when they were at a 35% or so discount, at least Grayscales make sense to me

Extra_Supermarket_29

In hong kong and china, we cannot buy btc directly, since the government ban all the larger trading platforms such as coinbase/ binance etc. government only provide very small platforms under their control. They also banned all Btc etf such as Ybtc, IBIT, GBTC We only can buy MSTR and BITO

AdamFitri2005

Have we gotten GBTC's numbers for yesterday, on farside it hasn't updated it yet

RemarkableShape8137

Bought 20 in April 2019 @ 4800 in a Roth BitIRA. USB key was kept in vault literally guarded by armed security guards in Fkn Vegas. 💩 in pants everyday  thinking about it. Sold all in March 2021 @61,000. Tranfered cash to personal Roth , sat on it for awhile then purchased  Closed end fund GBTC at 50% discount when btc fell to 17k in Jan 23. After GBTC converted to spot ETF the discount was gone and instantly doubled in value and then btc hit 69k again in Mar 24 Sold it all. Bought 42,000 shares of FBTC in Sept 24 @48 when btc was 56k . Sold 20 k shares yesterday at 106. Will hold on the remaining 21k shares until 2030. The key take for all of you is that everything was tax free. I strongly advise you put as much as you can afford in Roth IRA, convert a portion of your 401k to traditional ira then convert that to ROTH. Your older self will be skn ur younger selfs dck when u turn 59 1/2 and sitting on millions$$$$

flutter180

easily google/chatgpt-able information: 1. **Tesla** \- Tesla announced in **February 2021** that it had purchased **$1.5 billion** worth of Bitcoin and would begin accepting Bitcoin as payment for its cars. 2. **MicroStrategy** \- Led by CEO Michael Saylor, MicroStrategy aggressively adopted Bitcoin as its **primary treasury reserve asset**. \- By 2021, MicroStrategy had purchased **over 100,000 BTC**, investing billions and encouraging other companies to consider Bitcoin for treasury management. 3. **Square (now Block, Inc.)** \- Square, led by Jack Dorsey, invested **$50 million** in Bitcoin in late 2020 and expanded its position in early 2021. \- Square’s Cash App also supported Bitcoin transactions, further enabling mainstream adoption. 4. **PayPal** \- PayPal allowed its users to **buy, hold, and sell Bitcoin** (and other cryptocurrencies) directly on its platform starting in **late 2020**, but 2021 saw an expansion into allowing crypto payments at millions of merchants. 5. **Visa and Mastercard** \- Both **Visa** and **Mastercard** announced initiatives in 2021 to integrate cryptocurrency into their payment networks. \- Visa, for instance, began settling transactions using USDC (a stablecoin), while Mastercard announced partnerships with crypto companies to offer crypto payment cards. 6. **Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley** \- These major financial institutions began offering **Bitcoin investment products** to their high-net-worth clients. \- Goldman Sachs also reopened its cryptocurrency trading desk in **2021** after shutting it down in 2018. 7. **Coinbase IPO** \- Coinbase, one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges, went public via a direct listing on NASDAQ in April 2021. 8. **Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC)** \- Grayscale’s Bitcoin Trust saw immense institutional interest as a way for investors to gain exposure to Bitcoin without directly holding it.

jorgehn12

I started buying GBTC since it was below $8

BoomerSooner-SEC

It’s just simple. There are fees but I’m just not tech savvy enough to navigate all this self storage stuff. (I’m sort of old). I’ve had GBTC for a few years now. The fees are high but I’m sort of trapped.

OffThread

Yes, every single one of you should have a small amount going into any of the bitcoin ETFs within a ROTH 401k. GBTC has the largest fee, but their all 'comparable' beyond that.

cyger

That is what I did in 2015, well maybe it was 3% of my IRA, I put into GBTC. Now it makes up 80% of my portfolio. Best financial move of my life so far, holding on through all the ups and downs.

Ok-Sympathy9768

🙄… yeah …get BTC exposure via BTC ETFs, before that GBTC and make millions in a Roth taxed advantaged account .. terrible idea…

Herosinahalfshell12

Why is there a constant outflow from GBTC like every day people keep wanting to exit because of the fees. What's stopping it all from flowing out at once? What are the circumstances from someone who sells tomorrow why aren't they just selling today?

Herosinahalfshell12

Why is there a constant outflow from GBTC like every day people keep wanting to exit because of the fees. What's stopping it all from flowing out at once? What are the circumstances from someone who sells tomorrow why aren't they just selling today?

2CommaNoob

Yep, there is no reason to hold GBTC over the others because of the expenses: GBTC 1.5% FBTC .25% IBIT .12%

ChaoticDad21

GBTC expense ratio is absurd. I hold FBTC and BITB.

Xavimoose

Care to elucidate? I don’t own any gbtc but i was looking into efts and ibit and GBTC caught my eye.

ChaoticDad21

Get the fuck out of GBTC and into literally any other ETF

jk3639

Fucking GBTC smh

JashBeep

MSTR stock is valued at roughly 3x the value of all the bitcoin they hold. Sometimes that's referred to as a premium to 'net asset value'. They issue new stock and sell it because it's "overvalued". They then use 100% of the proceeds to buy bitcoin. Each time they do this, they improve the amount of bitcoin per share that all existing stock holders have while also bringing down the value of the stock (since they issued new stock just like a money printer). I said theoretically because what has happened in practice is the underlying value of MSTR increases because a) they get more bitcoin and b) the price of bitcoin moves up due to MSTR buying off the market. This is why people are saying it's an "infinite money glitch". The higher the premium, the more they can do this. The confusing thing is why is MSTR valued at 3x the Bitcoin value. If you can buy bitcoin directly you could get 100% of your $ invested as bitcoin. However, if you can't do that because you're an institution that can't buy commodities or can't custody bitcoin, your next best option is to buy the ETFs. They attract a small annual fee, which is not ideal. Or you could buy MSTR and get \~33% exposure to bitcoin, no fees, and be invested in a company that uses "intelligent leverage" to acquire bitcoin. I think a lot of people are waiting for the stock to come down in price so that the premium is much smaller (like maybe 10% instead of 200%) but they may not be prepared to see the price of bitcoin rise up (if bitcoin 3x price then MSTR is valued appropriately). Of course the conundrum is if bitcoin went 3x you would probably expect MSTR stock to go ballistic as well. I don't own MSTR and not planning to buy it, but would consider if the premium ever went negative again. A similar (but different) thing happened with GBTC back in 2021-2023 it was initially trading at a premium to NAV during the BTC runnup and then went to a negative to NAV during the bear market.

kpooo7

Some are - some are not, me 61, gym 5-6 days per week actively mange my 401, been investing in GBTC dips since 2021, up over 150%….

ProfessorThom

Other than crypto, my portfolio is incredibly boring. I realize I essentially hit the lottery buying GBTC back in 2016, so I'd go index funds like the rest of what I own. My dabbling in penny stocks and the like was not successful at all, so I don't see a need to fritter the profits away,

Secret_Operative

My IRA and Roth both have bitcoin ETF shares, and before that they were in GBTC. It's quite amazing how much those accounts have grown in the last few years.

RandoStonian

GBTC only turned into an ETF in the last year or so. Fidelity was definitely letting people (like myself) put self-directed 401k money into GBTC at least as of 3-4 years ago.

Tasty-Window

ya well 401k had the tax benefits, but I tried to put it in bitcoin like 8 years ago and they wouldn't let me. I think the ETF at the time was GBTC or something.

_526

For sure. I feel like a few years ago around the time GBTC came out people viewed the ETFs a bit more negatively.

SmoothGoing

Blockfi was more about paying interest on bitcoin than giving out loans. They took bitcoin to grayscale, exchanged it for GBTC shares at cost, waited out the hold period then sold shares when it enjoyed a fat premium. That did not work out for them. There is no easy secure way to do this. No they don't want your keys that you also know, you will send bitcoin to THEIR keys. They might do whatever with those coins, run off to Angola maybe. Interest rates on those loans are pretty high too. And if the price moves down fast you do get liquidated which a) sells at a bad time at worst price b) locks in a taxable event.

johnnyBuz

Even if MSTR eventually trades back to par with NAV, he’s still incentivized to continue issuing convertible debt as long as the premium to NAV is >0%, and to further front run the rest of the Magnificent-7 (and sovereigns for that matter) to build an insurmountable lead that could conceivably pay dividends for generations. So at the current 3x it’s a no-brainer to keep the convertible debt gravy train going, and debt markets are far larger than equity markets so this could continue for quite awhile. But yah, I’m bummed I didn’t personally allocate anything in my Roth IRA to MSTR. It was in GBTC for years since March 2020 and then I swapped it for FBTC once Fidelity launched their ETF. But come next bear market, I will put a healthy chunk into MSTR, especially if it ever trades at a discount to NAV which is more or less how the bitcoin market bottoms (when STH-price trades below LTH-price or realized cap).

Anon_Bitcoin_Dude

4.84 BTC and still around 5 in GBTC. 

Defusion55

Love seeing GBTC holders still selling despite all the others buying. such a beautiful thing haha

probabletrump

I did something similar. Did GBTC got a really nice pop when it converted to ETF (was trading at a discount to BTC when I bought) switched to FBTC, switched later to IBIT because of fees. Don't see any reason to be in one or the other besides which has the lowest fees.

Interesting-Pin1433

I took a bit of a risk with GBTC back when Bitcoin was under $20k, before ETFs were approved. IIRC it was a "trust" at the time. Switched to FBTC for lower fees. Incredible tax free gains in my IRA

FiB_VIKING

They were arguing with me few weeks ago that all the BTC ETF inflows were from GBTC.. when I wanted to provide data and correct information then I was banned for "not using a flair" I mean cmmoonn! :D They mods are pretty ignorant and want to keep their community in their own eco-chamber.

Shaglock

Grayscale is filing for SOL ETF. It’s going to dump so hard for a couple of months then, same shit like GBTC and ETHE.

GeneralZex

It’s wild to me that Vanguard allowed me to buy GBTC before Bitcoin ETFs became a thing and now they don’t allow buying it or any of the other Bitcoin ETFs.

El_Peregrine

Told them 4+ years ago, which was serendipitous - my mother was moving her retirement account to a new advisor. He was recommending GBTC the time, and they’ve told me they would have declined to work with the guy had they not had discussions with me about it.  So my mom - retired school nurse - has ended doing nearly 10x her money with that and MSTR. She can’t believe it. Recently donated some highly appreciated shares to a soup kitchen, too. 

johnnyBuz

Yes. I’ve onboarded roughly 10 family and friends in 2020 all for $20-30k so they are all whole-coiners now sitting on at least $100k in Bitcoin. My proudest achievement was getting my dad to allow me to buy $20k worth of GBTC in his Roth IRA in March 2020 when Bitcoin dipped below $5000 — so he’s got about 4 BTC now in a tax-free IRA which will significantly increase his retirement nest egg in the years to come.

alfa-ace1

I’d recommend companies such as Celsius, Blockfi or Genesis Capital , lol Now talking seriously, the securest way to borrow against your BTC is owning BTC ETF. I own GBTC and IBIT and in both you can borrow against your position (special maintenance of 50%, while most of common stocks’ maintenance is 30%).

Efficient_Reach8656

I don’t actually own any bitcoin I own a lot of GBTC and bought it when it was low. My cost basis is like $27.30. Been buying since March of 2020. Have made a decent amount but nothing life changing or even close to it

Defusion55

Thank God the other 11 ETF's went live with GBTC converting to an ETF. GBTC selling off 400k coins over the year would have been brutal without the others absorbing most of the selling.

Secret_Operative

What's shocking about this? GBTC wasn'tan ETF and because of the weird model, it carried a huge discount or premium over spot. Not exactly what investors want to deal with.

Secret_Operative

I would like to thank Bitcoin, and GBTC for where my IRA is today. All these latecomer ETFs also great. Thanks to all of them :)

Financial_Design_801

[US spot bitcoin ETFs (ex. GBTC) hold $100bn in AUM.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/s/TSRlm06Yvn) Shocking because GBTC has been around since 2015, first as a closed end fund (then open with ETF uplisting)

LiveFreelyOrDie

I still love my GBTC

greenskeeper01234

Thanks for chiming in. Brad was very specific about 5 or 6 crypto's being in this "basket ETF." And I'm pretty sure he's referring to the NYSE—just like the many Bitcoin ETFs that are listed currently (IBIT, GBTC, FBTC, etc.).

cryptolipto

They are absolutely borrowing money to buy bitcoin, otherwise known as leverage. I’m not sure if they will cause a grayscale like implosion but it’s possible? This is slightly different than what grayscale was doing with 3AC and GBTC premium.

HSuke

These are futures contracts, not spot ETFs. They're supposed to represent the price of GBTC 6 months from now. Buying GBTC during premium is pretty risky, and almost as bad as buying MSTR at a premium.

HSuke

The GBTC premium bubble is like pocket change compared to the premium that MSTR has. When it implode, it's going to hurt.

HSuke

> The biggest scam this cycle has been getting newbies to invest in shitty memes + centralized VC chains Uh. That was even bigger last cycle. Biggest concern is this cycle is the MSTR premium and bubble that's even worse than the GBTC premium last cycle.

Armadillodillodillo

It can trade under NAV in certain scenarios, like GBTC did.

The_Realist01

Shareholders don’t really have the same claims to the company’s btc as did GBTC though. It’s different.

Rydog_78

His stock will be trading like the GBTC trade. At times it will trade at a premium and other times it will trade at a discount

SmoothGoing

No that was tokenized GBTC. That's dead. You can only sell shares now, can't exchange them for bitcoin.

Ok-Sympathy9768

I do similar last year during the holidays.. told a relative during a holiday gathering.. I said “you see what bitcoin is doing? It’s going up you should look into getting yourself some, or even get some exposure through GBTC .. I’d kicking myself if BTC doubles, or even hits 100k and I didn’t get in on the action ” … holidays season gathering will be interesting this year .. told another relative pre election this year in September when it dropped into the 50s .. get some bitcoin now.. this will be like buying SoCal beach front property in the 1940s and 50s..said the same to very close friend and he laughed at me..and .. nah I’m fine with my 5% return in money market.. these were the last times I’ll be mentioning it to them.. if they ask.. Ill just say I closed my investment and took the profits

douginrpb

Same here. I’m 67 and got into Bitcoin a while back. Really has made for a secure retirement. All bc in cold storage, got burned with some apps and learned the hard way. Also got into GBTC thru broker and have done really well. Us seniors rock! Back and forth, but we rock. Now get the hell off my lawn.

douginrpb

Same here. I’m 67 and got into Bitcoin a while back. Really has made for a secure retirement. All bc in cold storage, got burned with some apps and learned the hard way. Also got into GBTC thru broker and have done really well. Us seniors rock! Back and forth, but we rock. Now get the hell off my lawn.

GBeastETH

I bought $MSTR one year ago when my broker refused to sell me $GBTC. Incredible stroke of luck! Up 635% to date!

mikael7878

GBTC 💯

microwavesan

Can you elaborate on why not GBTC?

SmoothGoing

Yes, but probably not GBTC. Holding keys in IRA is somewhat complicated, and comes with some fees. You can offset gains with losses or be under the limit for 0% LT gains tax bracket.

Financial_Design_801

In a 13F filing today, Goldman Sachs disclosed the following positions as of September 30: $461 million IBIT (12,769,510 shares, an 83% increase from the previous filing in August) $95.5 million FBTC (1,720,291 shares, a 13% increase from the previous filing ) $71.8 million GBTC (1,423,069 shares, a 116% increase from the previous filing) $59.7 million BTCO (940,443 shares, unchanged from the previous filing) $22.5 million BITB (650,961 shares, a 156% increase from the previous filing) There are also several smaller BTC ETF positions in today’s filing. Note: This 13F filing covers all of Goldman Sachs, not just the internal asset management business. The discretion designation on all the above positions is Goldman Sachs & Co. LLC. Filing: https://www.sec.gov/edgar/search/#/q=Bitcoin&dateRange=custom&category=custom&entityName=Goldman%2520Sachs&startdt=2024-11-14&enddt=2024-11-14&forms=13F-HR Source: https://twitter.com/macroscope17/status/1857207080282673430?s=46&t=ihVglVXC0BQSbw6j57EoaA

JazzlikeEmotion7367

Never hurt to take some profit. I'm glad you didn't sell all of it. One time I had a lot of GBTC in my IRA and it doubled so I sold half. Then it 3x so I sold the other half. Then it went up 10X and I still think about how dumb it was to sell all of it.

LiveFreelyOrDie

You can invest BTC in a Roth via ETF. It doesn’t have to track perfectly, I’m still happy with GBTC. Of course 49% annual growth is probably not sustainable, but in the long run, yes I think it will outperform the S&P.

DPSK7878

I'm buying a property in the next 6 months. Had already started cashing out partial MSTR and GBTC. 1 year holding is a big gamble to hold BTC.

GBeastETH

Merrill Lynch would not let me buy $GBTC or any crypto ETF so I bought $MSTR instead. Turns out to have been an incredible stroke of luck. Up 600% in one year.

Hwoarangatan

Suppose you bought GBTC in your Roth IRA at vanguard. Then they decided their clients can't buy these any more, only sell. So years later when the ETFs came out, you want to trade your old ETFs for the new spot ETFs. Vanguard won't do that for you, so you have to transfer your whole account to Fidelity.

HerboClevelando

Or you can use your Fidelity personal or 401(k) brokerage account to buy one of the Bitcoin ETFs (FBTC, GBTC, etc.)

Herosinahalfshell12

Will GBTC ever be drained?

Canik716kid

This! And that's the beauty of never having the need to sell my crypto...I hedge with indirect exposure in GBTC and BTC (mini trust fund) . I need to divest, I sell shares, not coin 🪙😉

chairoverflow

depends if you discount GBTC outflows or not. according to https://farside.co.uk/btc/ it could be 45B (or 25B net)

Secret_Operative

Yes. My fidelity rep asked about me getting into some index funds they have and I pitched 100% FBTC. So far I'm waaaaaaay ahead. It was GBTC for years before that.

Sensitive-Tie4696

One of my biggest regrets was not getting into GBTC years back. I'll never tell anyone in person again about my finances, lesson learned.

PuzzleheadedExtent97

GBTC incoming?

Dchella

Buying at 16k is a whole different ballgame than 77k though. I was lucky to throw in when I did (around there) in BTC and GBTC when it was trading at 40% discount to the BTC it was worth. I haven’t thrown in anything past 22k 🥴

spid3rfly

I was at one point contributing 20% to my 401k... also matched up to a percentage. As they dropped their match, I dropped my contribution. My 401k balance is a very comfortable amount. I'm still contributing but it's much lower now. Before the ETFs, I started bugging them about bitcoin options(at that time it was GBTC or Fidelity's crypto option.) Wouldn't do it. After the ETFs, I started bugging my employer and contacting Fidelity about once a month to give us access. They still wouldn't do it so I said screw it. I lowered it to a meager single-digit percentage. I use the extra money to buy my spot bitcoin in addition to what I have already allocated to it. If I wouldn't get hit with a large withdrawal tax, I would've already converted my entire 401k to spot bitcoin.

MiguelLancaster

I switched my IRAs to mostly GBTC with a little bit of MSTR a few years back. Then when the ETFs got approved I switched a lot of the GBTC over to FBTC and ARKB As of Wednesday morning, I'm about 85% MSTR in my IRAs Gonna ride it for a little bit and move some of the profits (hopefully) back into FBTC/ARKB

ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME

Negative, nothing crypto related. ETHA, GBTC, IBIT, etc. aren't allowed.

ASK_ABT_MY_USERNAME

I'm a 'boomer' who wants to keep everything in one platform. Merrill doesn't allow the purchase of GBTC, ETHA, etc. Is MSTR the best way to go about getting exposure?

BigAcorn1770

Speaking as a near 6 year Roth and IRA holder in GBTC, I'd take that bet against you any day.

Sifl-and-Olly

Many people bought some GBTC @ a 30% discount to NAV in a Roth IRA... the discount + tax advantage was enough to stomach someone else custodying it. Of course, I wouldn't recommend doing that with your whole stack, though.

KindlyBlacksmith4003

For sure, it's been great. But I don't regret buying GBTC when it was discounted. BTC at $20k USD and GBTC discount to nav mean effectively buying BTC at $12k :) FWIW, Lyn Alden writes a fair deal about MSTR in her premium newsletter.

new_account_22

That's my concern also, just got ahead of itself. Wish I got in earlier instead of all in on GBTC.

Canik716kid

GBTC

ChaoticDad21

It’s a little disingenuous maybe, but idk much about the gold ETF launch. The fact that GBTC existed before the launch is distinct. And the fact that it had such a high expense ratio, led to a lot of funds leaving that and going into the ETFs. Not sure if that was accounted for here or not.

Substantial-Skill-76

Isnt a large portion coming from GBTC?

CoyoteClem

I would argue this is not totally representative of the situation because GBTC acted earlier as a pre-ETF option since 2015. Though maybe a similar situation happened with some other gold proxy before that ETF arrived?

messisleftbuttcheek

This site tracks the inflows and outflows of all the ETFs, GBTC included. The average daily inflow for all ETFs combined is over $100 million. This average includes the outflows from GBTC. https://farside.co.uk/btc/

HipOut

How much money was in GBTC before the ETFs were approved, how much is in there now, and how much is in the ETFs? Basically I’m asking if the ETFs have created an overall increase of inflows or if it’s mostly just money that transferred from GBTC due to lower fees