ETF

AutoModerator

Post is by: Bcom_Mod and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/bitcoin_com/comments/1s7l84p/morgan_stanleys_bitcoin_etf_just_filed_at_014/ Buried in Amendment No. 3 of Morgan Stanley's $MSBT S-1 filing this week: the fee is 0.14%. BlackRock's IBIT, currently the largest spot Bitcoin ETF in the world with \~$54 billion in assets, charges 0.25%. Fidelity's FBTC charges 0.25%. Morgan Stanley just filed to undercut every single competitor in the market on day one. Bloomberg ETF analyst Eric Balchunas' reaction: "Semi-shock." His colleague James Seyffart followed with: "WOW." These are people who track ETF fees professionally. That reaction tells you something. The strategic logic here isn't subtle. [Morgan Stanley Wealth Management oversees roughly $8 trillion in client assets and has over 15,000 financial advisors](https://news.bitcoin.com/morgan-stanley-eyes-dominance-in-bitcoin-etfs-as-its-low-fee-undercuts-blackrocks-ibit/). If they come in as the cheapest option, none of those advisors face an awkward conversation justifying why they're using a competitor's product. It removes friction at the point of sale across an enormous distribution network: one that reaches exactly the demographic still sitting on the sidelines: older, wealthier, advisor-guided investors who wanted Bitcoin exposure but weren't going near a self-custody wallet. Strategy CEO Phong Le ran the numbers publicly: a 2% allocation across Morgan Stanley's AUM would be $160 billion. That's roughly 3x the current size of IBIT. Even a 0.5% allocation starts moving markets. Launch is expected early April according to Seyffart. Coinbase Custody and BNY Mellon are the custody and administration partners. NYSE Arca listing notice already filed. All of this happening while Fear & Greed is in single digits and BTC is 44% off ATH. Every major piece of institutional infrastructure keeps getting built in bear markets. This is now the third time that's happened in this cycle alone. BlackRock spent two years building the dominant Bitcoin ETF. Morgan Stanley filed to undercut them on fees before their first day of trading. Welcome to the fee war nobody saw coming. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Junnowhoitis

Bloomberg ETF analyst who works for a company selling a Bitcoin ETF telling people that buying Bitcoin and holding it is a good idea. Lol what a surprise.

dextarstoic7

Near 70% When I started investing 3-4 years ago I bought bitcoin and traded much(day and swing trades) which had grown my portfolio bigg Iam slowly redistributing the wins into ETF's and Stocks to have a better diversification but believing in bitcoin

Beginning-Put-4467

50% world ETF 50% BTC

Dramatic_Patience_41

Why is the fee so high when the "ETF" is just Bitcoin?

ClearSnakewood

ETF’s are not Bitcoin. Real Bitcoin lives on the blockchain.

Survivalist2

Hey man! I am new in Bitcoin too. I wanted to buy bitcoin when the price was 17.000€ . I didn’t. I invested some money into BTC last year. I think mostly because of FOMO. First purchase was totaly based on feelings and not on any research. Later, I started reading about bitcoin, listening to podcasts, watching yt videos, and it opened another world for me. You see, I invested before in other assets like ETF’s , so that means im not totaly new into this right? I was so wrong! Bitcoin is an investment on another whole level, and the whole cominity is just amazing. My advice is, buy the dips and DCA as long as you can, because IMO you won’t be able to do that in the future.

Baberpk

"Nice entry! $66k is looking like a very strong institutional support level right now. I actually just finished a deep-dive analysis on why the traditional 4-year cycle is changing in 2026. The 'Retail Era' of 80% crashes is likely behind us because of the massive ETF floor. If you're planning to HODL, I've broken down why these levels are holding so well here: \[https://bitfluxe.com/bitcoin-2026-cycle-evolution/ . Good luck with the investment!"

baIIern

Are those ETF inflows in the room with us now?

leonm0161

Correct, but you are forgetting something. A stock is a virtual piece of ownership that only belongs to you as long as the government protects your "right" for that virtual ownership. It's not like you have private keys for that. Expropriation of company ownership is nothing new & grows with growing socialism, the direction our world is heading to (remember how bytedance was forced to sell tiktok US?) In Germany eg, they have implemented the "Vorabpauschale", which is a small tax on unrealized ETF gains. Also, the companies you own stocks of can only send you the "money" as a dividend that they earn. But what if they will need to send you a CBDC in the future, which you might not be able to use since you don't align with governmental agenda? It will be essentially worthless to you. Bitcoin is the only digital asset that you can definitely prove your ownership of without the risk of being expropriated

DRX-trade

Hey man, good callouts on the bearish sentiment. MARA deleveraging is a valid point, but single corporate actions often aren't the sole driver for sustained trends. ETF inflows cooling is notable, yet MSTR consistently accumulating shows conviction from other big players, so it's not a total institutional desertion. From a prop trading perspective, we're less focused on headlines and more on the charts and managing risk. Losing the 50-day MA and testing supports is absolutely key. But projecting an absolute $45k based purely on a percentage drop isn't how we define risk. Instead, define your *own* clear invalidation levels for your trades. What specific price action would make your long thesis invalid? Size your positions based on that. The 'altcoin bloodbath' is standard when BTC corrects, so factor that in. Focus on your invalidation and sizing.

Patient-Ordinary-359

They're still only your favourite features. They don't matter one bit to, for example, almost anyone who buys a BTC ETF to get in on the action. Or, given that almost nobody uses it for actually buying stuff or sending money, more than 15 years after it was launched (and don't quote third world countries here, call me when it breaks out of single digits in a real economy), and in reality almost all BTC action is circle-jerk speculation, where the actual mechanisms don't matter in the slightest, in reality they don't matter to almost anybody at all. Accusing dishonesty because a real life professor, real life professional trader and respected popular financial commentator with a million subs doesn't like your favourite toy for your favourite reasons is just lame.

AutoModerator

Post is by: sylsau and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: https://inbitcoinwetrust.substack.com/p/bitcoin-on-the-brink-are-a-35-plunge 🚨 **Is Bitcoin on the brink of a 35% plunge?** 🚨 The euphoria is fading, and the market's warning signs are flashing bright red. While retail investors hold on, the big players are quietly making their moves: 📉 **Mining Dump:** MARA Holdings just offloaded 15,000+ BTC to wipe out $1B in debt. 🛑 **Institutional Desertion:** Spot ETF inflows have flatlined. 🐳 **The Lone Whale:** MicroStrategy is the *only* major entity still accumulating. With critical technical supports breaking and the 50-day moving average lost, a brutal return to the frozen lands of **$45,000** is becoming a very real scenario. If $60K breaks, prepare for an altcoin bloodbath. 🩸 **Are you prepared for the perfect storm?** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

heyheyshinyCRH

I never thought that, definitely. As soon as I saw ETF's come down the pipe it was a ticking clock

Anxious_Hearing1478

ETF ruined crypto

zfyl

A few potential catalysts lining up for April that might help. The CLARITY Act -- first bipartisan crypto regulatory framework -- is reportedly being released next week. Whether it passes this year is another question (Coinbase is skeptical), but the introduction alone should signal regulatory direction. On the institutional side, Morgan Stanley just filed a Bitcoin ETF at 0.14%, directly undercutting BlackRock. Fee wars between Wall Street banks over who gets to sell you Bitcoin is about as bullish a structural signal as it gets, even if the price doesn't reflect it yet.

zfyl

The mining cost floor argument makes sense in theory, but the short-term flow data explains the disconnect. Spot BTC ETFs just posted $171M in outflows yesterday -- biggest daily exit in three weeks. Stablecoin market cap also dropped over $1B this week, so there's less dry powder sitting on the sidelines. That said, the structural story is different from the flow story. Morgan Stanley literally just filed a BTC ETF undercutting BlackRock's fee at 0.14%, and GameStop committed $315M to BTC via a covered call strategy. Institutions aren't abandoning the asset class -- they're repositioning. Mining cost tends to act as a floor over 6-12 month horizons, not week to week.

colemusic1

Keep an eye on these on TradeView: - DXY (most important), if it’s going up then the crypto market is fighting against it and struggles from it. But this also benefits ETF’s such as S&P500 - US10Y (U.S government bonds, also super important): if it goes up, it also means the crypto market can take a hit here - QQQ (also important): if it’s going down, chances are the crypto market may also struggle too, now that BTC has heavier ties to ETF’s than it did years prior. So, Just basically download the app, keep an eye on those 3. Whether or not the stock market (individual stocks or index funds such as S&P500) or crypto goes up first is hard to know, but when DXY & US10Y is rising in month to month charts, these two are the most important factors for realising if the crypto market is risk on, or risk off. Other things matter, like the war etc, no denying that much. But those two macro factors single-handedly are the most important factors for knowing if BTC will not only: - rise again - but actually sustain its rise rather than break back down - it’s weird because DXY going up = typically bad for crypto, yet good for stocks/ETF’s

InvestAISavvy

Different setup than 2022 in a few important ways. In 2022, the crash was driven by internal crypto contagion — Luna, 3AC, Celsius, then FTX. Each domino made the next one fall, and trust in the entire ecosystem collapsed. Stocks recovered first because crypto had its own structural problems to work through beyond just macro. This time the pressure is mostly external — Iran, oil above $100, stagflation fears, the $14B options expiry on Deribit yesterday. Crypto doesn't have a contagion event happening. Fear & Greed just hit 12, which is the lowest reading since October 2023, but the social data tells a different story. I track engagement volume across platforms and BTC social attention is actually *climbing* while price drops. That kind of divergence — more eyeballs, rising panic, falling price — has historically shown up near capitulation bottoms, not the start of extended drawdowns. The other piece worth watching: institutional infrastructure is still being built during this fear cycle. Morgan Stanley is prepping a Bitcoin ETF at 0.14% fees, undercutting BlackRock. ETH ETFs have had six straight days of outflows, but that's positioning, not abandonment. Institutions don't build low-fee products for assets they think are going to zero. The stock market has its own headwinds right now — oil is squeezing margins, the Dow just entered correction territory, and the VIX is above 30. If the Iran situation drags out, stocks could stay pressured longer than crypto because corporate earnings take a direct hit from energy costs. Bitcoin doesn't have an earnings report to miss. No crystal ball, but the setup feels more like BTC leads the recovery this time rather than lags it.

Few-Engineering9803

This one has 0.14% fees, way lower than most of the rest. Their AUM is gigantic compared to some of the smaller ETF's floating around at the moment.

Electrical-Cat-6660

Here is the best thing about these unrealized losses, you can sell and buy back BTC to offset any capital gains for the year. My portfolio ETF gains throughout the year have been funding BTC buys, tax free! 😊

Rydog_78

Bingo. The biggest risk for these trad-fi companies is not having Bitcoin on their Bingo card. No one wants to end up like Blockbuster. Failure to see where the puck is going to be in 10 years could mean losing out on trillions of dollars. I think this is why Vanguard the knee earlier this year and open up access to a Bitocin ETF. After the over whelming success that BlackRock’s IBIT Vanguard needed to make a change at the top level. A CEO cannot survive making a financial mistake like its former CEO had done by rejecting the option to submit an application to the government to start a Bitcoin ETF. 7 other companies filed and well you know how that turned out for all of them. Now everyone wants a piece of those sweet sweet management fees.

WeakEstablishment686

Yep FOMO will always be there, we all have it, but the truth is everything looks good to buy in hindsight, but were you really going to spend much of your $4k savings on bitcoin at the time, or $15k of your checking at the time? The truth is, you were just getting by. Sure maybe you could’ve put $1k but that money wouldn’t be life changing (maybe worth $10k now assuming you never sold on drops). Now you have leapfrogged your forecasted path with a lump sum $180k settlement and you’re only 29. You have time on your side. This is where you want to be safe but also aggressively diversified in your investments. What that means is something to the extent of: 1. Paying off high interest debt first (>5%) 2. Keeping enough money in a HYSA for emergency / regular spend earning (3-4% yield). This might be 3-6 months worth of expenses. 3. Investing the rest in the most tax efficient ways possible A) Maximize Roth IRA for you and your wife ($7.5k each, tax free growth) B) Maximize HSA if available ($4.5k each I believe, triple tax advantaged, can invest into the market, withdraw tax free for health payments in the future, or just pay your tax rate when you’re older like a 401k C) Maximize 401k to reduce taxable income and allow a larger base to grow D) Invest as much as you can into a split between equities (broad ETF like VTI) and maybe bitcoin. I will say you should read up on bitcoin and truly understand the value prop, read the white paper, etc. Otherwise you’re just going to panic sell when it drops 50% again. Now, let’s say you’re able to invest $150k of that $180k. Conservative growth (broad ETF) will allow for that money to double every 10 years (7% real growth includes inflation). That’s $300k at 40, $600k at 50, $1.2M at 60 with not a single other drop invested. If you take a portion of that and invest in bitcoin on big drawdowns you might get 15-20% CAGR instead of 10% which accelerates this future NW gain, but there’s more volatility and maybe risk ofc. The other thing to think about is growing your income. This money a great start to continue to compound but you will also want to add to it over time, pay for family trips, spend more, etc. So trying to get that next job for a 20-30% total comp increase is also helpful.

AutoModerator

Post is by: TokenPulsar and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1s63iqc/extreme_fear_eth_bleeding_btc_barely_holding/ Ok so this week was rough. Like actually rough. Total market cap went from $2.3T to $2.52T and basically just drifted down the whole time. $BTC kept bouncing then getting slapped back to the 66k zone every single time. $ETH just sat near $2k looking sad, with ETF outflows still going. Fear & Greed hit Extreme Fear. Lowest reading of 2026. BTC dominance climbed to 56-58% which just means people are hiding in BTC and not touching alts. BTC spot ETFs stayed net positive in March though. Institutions didn't leave. $ETH ETFs kept bleeding. That split is real and it's widening. 65.6k is the line for BTC. Lose that and 60k gets tested. Hold it and maybe we stabilize. Macro stuff, Fed, oil, geopolitics, kept killing every bounce before it had a chance. Honestly just a week where waiting was the right call. What are you watching heading into next week? Any levels you're focused on? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **A few good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill Note: Breez does also a hybrid liquid/LN wallet called Misty Breez - the sats being on liquid means no need for channels although the payments take a few extra seconds. You'll also can get a free customable LN address. While talking about hybrid wallets, there's also Aqua Wallet although not IMHO as good as Misty Breez. There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (air-gapped) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [ColdCard](https://coldcardwallet.com/) - air gapped, Bitcoin only, has advanced features but a new user will do fine with one of the great tutorials available. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is not air-gapped. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better, although a bit more expensive, option. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

isunktheship

These fucks are just going for the ETF for the PFOF

tornavec

Bitcoin is falling because the price already factors everything in. It doesn’t matter what the stats are on crypto whales or ETF funds. The war in Iran was given two weeks to wrap up to avoid long‑term consequences, but now the sides are preparing for ground battles. In this situation, Bitcoin volatility could increase, and crypto‑backed loans will be at risk of margin calls. My staking strategy on Cryptomus at 20% APY makes a lot more sense. I use the APY profit for daily crypto trades, earning extra gains from volatility spikes.

mickalawl

The customers hold the ETF. Morgan Stanley dont own the BTC. I.e. they are in it for fees. And also can capture margin on customer buys and sells. So more middle man layers and value extraction which is the opposite of the original decentralised goal i guess. But since people are only in this for gambling speculation its better to let Morgan provide custody services to grandma. The whales will be seeking to next force these ETFs into 401k or something. Again opposite of freedom and decengralised but expected when the crypto echo system has been captured by billionaire tech bros that are part of the current corrupt admin. All true to its p3do roots though i guess?

Hitachi22

Exactly what I've been saying. Everyone talking how Black Rock ETF is still holding even in this bear market. No, that's not the institution holding that's just their clients. Black Rock couldn't care less what Bitcoin does. They are just making millions in revenue from the fees. On that same topic, the ETFs don't help the network. Miners themselves need transactions to happen so they can earn those transaction fees. If all the Bitcoin just eventually ends up sitting in the ETFs, miners would be out of business.

Reasonable_Leg_4664

Yes, it does. I was talking about ETF AND Having your own walled. Not having your ETF in a wallet. You have to have both.

Commercial-Ad90

At this point BTC value is so tied in with institutionalization now that if I go down we all go down. No way cold holders get off Scot free if ETF collapse

Commercial-Ad90

If the US Government lets Fidelity collapse, along with my ETF and half of Americas retirement savings, I’m wishing I bough gold and guns, not BTC. I hope you or beneficiaries also don’t learn that cold wallets aren’t 100% risk proof either. The honest answer is we are both taking on risks, just different risks.

Commercial-Ad90

Yes, ETF storage has risks, but so does cold storage. I know in a perfect world people don’t lose wallets, and wallets don’t get destroyed, but it happens at an alarming rate. In a perfect world the US government doesn’t allow major financial firms Fidelity to collapse, and therefore my ETF, but I guess that could happen. TBH, if I’m preparing for that I’m probably looking for gold, not BTC. Everyone has to ask themselves which risk is higher to them. I want to make sure my funds don’t go to an abyss if something were to happen to me or my wife unexpectedly.

Commercial-Ad90

I agree with you. I don’t and I have never said I do. Just like a S&P 500 ETF share owner doesn’t hold 500 stock certificates of US companies, I don’t own any BTC directly. I have and will continue reap all the same rewards as a cold wallet holder, so I don’t mind the semantics. As long as the retirement is funded, the and the home is bought, everything worked out perfect. Plus I don’t want my wife (or kids if something happened to her too) kids trying to get into a cold wallet if something were to happen to me.

Rydog_78

They’ll be advising their wealth clients to diversity 1-5% into alternative investments like Bitcoin. The ETF product will be there for their customers to diversity into if they wish but that decision will be on a case by case basis. A lot of older investors are not into Bitcoin. They don’t understand it and care less to try and understand it. This product will be important for future investors.

Commercial-Ad90

I guess fundamentally the ETF vs Cold Wallet debate is based on what your views and situation is. If you are forced to utilize ETF, due employers, or if you feel the risk of you or your beneficiaries losing a cold wallet though theft, scams, or destruction is greater than the risk of losing through the collapse of major financial institutions, choose ETF. If you fundamentally believe in bitcoin becoming a widely adopted currency, and you believe that the risk of financial collapse or governmental interference is greater than you or you loved ones losing a cold wallet, choose cold wallet.

riscten

$66K *today* 🙄 The point is that a Bitcoin ETFs is not Bitcoin, just like a gold ETF is not gold. You can't manufacture PCBs or jewelry with a gold ETF, and you can't do any of the Bitcoin things with a Bitcoin ETF, you're only getting exposure to the price. The particular thing about a Bitcoin ETF is that Bitcoin was specifically designed to eliminate the opacity that comes with traditional banking, but by investing into a Bitcoin ETF, you're throw yourself right into the lion's den, exposing yourself to the bankers' old shenanigans. Investing into a Bitcoin ETF is not unlike powering an electric vehicle with fossil fuels. It kind of defeats the whole purpose. I get that most people do it to save on taxes, and that's the unfortunate reality of today.

creative_usr_name

It's no different than owning one on an exchange. You hold an IOU to a coin. You may or may not be able to execute that IOU for an actual on chain Bitcoin sometime in the future. That may be due to exchange/ETF mismanagement, fraud, or due to changing laws in your jurisdiction.    If you self custody no company or government can restrict your ability to transact on the blockchain with your coin short of shutting down the entire internet. 

severact

I would also add much easier inheritance/estate planning to your list. Many "not your keys, not your coin" people end up messing up self custody and losing their coins. There are risks either way. I think for most people the risks of being in an ETF are way less than self custody.

ys2020

Can you move the coins to your wallet from the ETF? Can you pay me with BTC from your etf? If the answer is no, then no, toi don't hold any Bitcoin. 

flyvr

No. Not your keys, not your coins in both examples. With the ETF it's merely an abstract financial instrument. Even if it's backed by real assets, it's not bitcoin. The only similarity or influence is on the price. It's fundamentally opposite to the original purpose of Bitcoin. Doesn't mean they are bad or not useful, but they are not bitcoin

HedgehogGlad9505

Yes. But the point is, it can be any exchange, and you can pick one on the day you sell. You trust the exchange for 0.01 btc and for an hour or so. ETF is tied to a company, and if Blackrock fails when you are holding IBIT, your coin is gone. You can't automatically turn them into FBTC.

Commercial-Ad90

>Nah, that's like asking if someone who has $66K is a whole coiner If that’s the case, why has my ETF has doubled through gains alone, while my cash hasn’t kept up with inflation? Obviously it’s not cut and dry like that.

pleebent

But what if the ETF you are buying is? Bitcoin Spot ETFs are required to actually buy the bitcoin when you buy the ETF

pleebent

Umm ETF isnt a stock. They are not the same thing. You get that right first

pleebent

Well done. ETF that tracks the underlying and are regulated to actually hold and buy Bitcoin is the equivalent IMO. When you buy Blackrock Bitcoin ETF, Blackrock then has to go and buy Bitcoin to match what people buy. Yes it’s like the same thing. It’s like when you buy an S&P ETF. You are buys shares of all the companies in the S&P weighted accordingly.

pleebent

Well done. ETF that tracks the underlying and are regulated to actually hold and buy Bitcoin is the equivalent IMO. When you buy Blackrock Bitcoin ETF, Blackrock then has to go and buy Bitcoin to match what people buy. Yes it’s like the same thing. It’s like when you buy an S&P ETF. You are buys shares of all the companies in the S&P weighted accordingly.

Commercial-Ad90

I personally feel it’s more likely for me or my beneficiaries to lose or get scammed out of a cold wallet than for a too-big-to-fail brokerage firm to collapse. Only way Fidelity fails to index track an asset it’s it has gone defunct. If that happened, half of americas 401k funds will disappear. I don’t see any universe where a bitcoin is 120k or whatever and its ETF is at 0 because of PR and regulations. It’s too institutional now.

FairBlamer

Dude you’re in the wrong here. The entire point of OP’s post is to transparently \*ask\* whether or not holding 1 BTC worth of IBIT is the same as “owning a bitcoin”. OP was abundantly clear in their language here: \>Finally purchased the \*\*equivalent of 1 coin\*\* via ETF.

ys2020

Can you ask your ETF to move the coins to your wallet? 

Internet_is_tough

What a random reply! What does ark have to do with Bitcoin? It's an innovation ETF investing in company stocks. IBIT has tracked bitcoin with less than 0.5% difference on the day and 0% difference on the long run.

Commercial-Ad90

It’s on paper until you exchange it for something of value. Are you able to buy anything with a harddrive? Or do you need to take it to a change first, just like an ETF?

Emergency_Scheme_670

Never. This is pretty dangerous when you think about it. ETF (like Blackrock's iShares) price tracks BTC but its not a hard peg like stablecoins. The relationship can be inverse at any point in time due to institutional risk, bad PR, regulatory action, liquidity crisis. Just look at ARKK, still hasn't recovered after 5 years. Stay away from ETFs.

Astropin

That's not the same thing at all. If Bitcoin goes to $200k...so does the ETF you own.

Reasonable_Leg_4664

Technically you can have both. You can have an equivalent of a whole coin in ETF, bonus points if it’s in a tax deferred account and you could hold the keys to 1+ BTC in your own wallet. That would be best of both worlds. If you hold in the ETF for 10-20 years you’ll see the appreciation of Bitcoin and if you have one on chai. You can use it to loan against. The ETF can be treated illegal a normal but highly volatile asset and you can sell it as it grows.

wkndatbernardus

If someone can use an exchange like Coinbase to hold their coins, and is considered a wholecoiner, someone who invests in a spot ETF in the dollar amount of 1 BTC, is also one.

Commercial-Ad90

But a cold wallet is just bitcoin on paper too right? Ironically, you are much more likely to lose you coin through scams, getting lost, or you beneficiaries can’t finding or accessing it than in an ETF.

slayernfc

You own a stock (ETF) not Bitcoin, get that straight first.

BeginningMost6014

Pragmatically, yes, you like I, own 1 BTC via the ETF. Technically we do not directly own BTC so from a purists standpoint, not our keys, not our BTC. Your question really comes down to semantics and perception - valid arguments can be made both ways.

CrystalCraveWeb

Yeah this is the part most people don’t want to hear: sometimes price is just boring because nobody cares enough to buy, not because some villain is dumping on them. Miners are an easy scapegoat because “miner capitulation” sounds dramatic and fits a nice narrative. But like you said, the supply side story has been getting weaker for a while and we’re in that awkward demand desert where everyone’s waiting for “someone else” to step in first. For me the clearest signal would be a combo of: ETF inflows turning consistently positive for a few weeks in a row, not just random green days and on-chain showing large wallets adding on red days instead of just sitting flat Macro helps, but I think you’ll see those two before you see a clean Fed / rates narrative change. By the time CNBC is talking “crypto’s back,” the demand void will have been filled for a while already.

AbuNooooo

Thanks for sharing. When does the new ETF launch? Just wondering.

AutoModerator

Post is by: Classic-Direction778 and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1s53q0e/bought_in_2022_watched_it_collapse_held_not/ Genuinely cannot believe people are capitulating at $70k BTC with everything that just happened on the regulatory front. SEC and CFTC jointly classifying BTC, ETH, XRP, and SOL as digital commodities is the kind of news cycle we've been waiting for. It landed and got ignored because Iran and AI stock fears took over the headlines. On chain the picture is pretty clear. Exchange reserves at seven-year lows, whales accumulating through the dip, ETF inflows positive for nearly a week straight. The money that matters is not leaving. The Iran situation created a nasty weekend wick, wiped out $400M in overleveraged longs, and shook out weak hands. That's it. That's the whole story. And the 20 millionth BTC was mined this month, with one million left to exist across the next century. The supply side of this has never looked like this before. $71,400 is what I'm watching. Reclaim that with conviction, and the mood shifts fast. In the meantime, I'm not touching my stack. Borrowing against it on nехо when I need liquidity and staying fully exposed. Done panic selling in previous cycles, and it never ended well. NFA. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Drx26

yeah sentiment looks way worse than what’s actually going on under the hood tbh if you look at flows + positioning it’s not nearly as catastrophic as the index suggests. feels more like panic than actual structural damage been checking crypto ETF flows + news lately and it’s been surprisingly not that bearish: [https://etf-radar.fayae.com](https://etf-radar.fayae.com) kinda feels like one of those moments where sentiment overshoots reality

_paydao

I agree — this looks much more like a demand problem than a miner problem. For me, the clearest sign the void is over would be sustained ETF inflows plus obvious whale accumulation showing up on-chain at the same time.

Mammoth_Bank790

Why invest in a token when you can invest in an Crypto & Blockchain ETF?

MrKillerKiller_

Little by little, yes. National currency for El Salvador and Central African Republic. ETF’s for mainstream retirement funds. US President declaring US’s crypto holdings as a Strategic National Asset. It’s approaching a more legitimate side of the global lexicon now.

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **A few good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill Note: Breez does also a hybrid liquid/LN wallet called Misty Breez - the sats being on liquid means no need for channels although the payments take a few extra seconds. You'll also can get a free customable LN address. While talking about hybrid wallets, there's also Aqua Wallet although not IMHO as good as Misty Breez. There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (air-gapped) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [ColdCard](https://coldcardwallet.com/) - air gapped, Bitcoin only, has advanced features but a new user will do fine with one of the great tutorials available. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is not air-gapped. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better, although a bit more expensive, option. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

IndianaGeoff

Where are significant new buyers coming from since ETF demand is past the rush stage.

RickJamesBoitch

I would have done better putting my money in an S&P 500 ETF 5 years ago.

Dependent_Code7796

Adoption will keep growing. Besides the ETF’s institutional adoption hasn’t even really begun yet. With the passing of the clarity act, every financial institution will officially recognize bitcoin as a legit commodity and they will all want a piece of the pie. Between that and all the consistent buys from the treasury companies, it seems like a supply shock would be inevitable and imminent, barring any major black swan events.

J_Jelizah

I have my 100 LTC in cold wallet strange thing is litecoin has more transactions than bitcoin, has ETF, most of supply is in circulation, has optional privacy with MWEB, now with LitVM smart contracts are being integrated. However, didn’t see affect on price yet

1hty

You do better of investing those pennies into just one like BTC or some ETF stock.

Romanizer

That's it. In European law, an ETF has to include more than one product so funds that only hold Bitcoin are ETPs.

Electronic-Spite-421

really? If I said you could buy a "share" in something for a dollar that SOME people thought might increase to a million dollars in ten years, you couldn't imagine investing in that? just playing devil's advocate with an extreme example. but it's all on a continuum. there's a difference between putting 20 bucks on a single number at the roulette table for fun, and your mortgage equity I don't personally believe bitcoin or other crypto is likely to have such a wild jump as the above example. but, the fact bitcoin's been around so long, and seen such crazy gains, is held by multiple governments, now has ETF funds available with blackrock, etc, that I can hold in a tax-advantaged account, makes it seem like a highly volatile asset that MIGHT go up 10x or 100x in the coming decades \*shrug\* so that's literally the only high-risk part of my portfolio. 3%. the rest is boring, safer, index funds. I figure, if I lose all the bitcoin value, I won't lose sleep. it'll be a "phew, glad I wasn't dumb enough to invest most of my money in that!" but IF it goes up 10-100x, I'll be kicking myself for not investing in SOME exposure

WellieWelli

Quite positive honestly. The fundamentals that got it this far are the same fundamentals we have today that will continue pushing it forward. Beyond that, institutional adoption is skyrocketing, most of the largest global banks are integrating Blockchain into their systems and recommending bitcoin. Bitcoin ETFs are expanding and an upcoming ETF by Morgan Stanley's has the potential to double the current capital coming in from ETFs. The number of financial institutions recommending and integrating bitcoin into portfolios has expanded massively and is continuing to expand. It's reaching levels where the standardisation of bitcoin allocations is becoming possible. The tokenisation of assets & Blockchain settlement rails becoming mainstream, the new York stock exchange & London stock exchange are both building tokenized trading and on rail settlement platforms and NASDAQ just announced token settlement plans & partnerships for xStocks. As the use of AI agents grow, transacting anonymously between each other much of this is being done on-chain bypassing traditional finance. Stablecoin growth is skyrocketing with MasterCard implementing Blockchain technology. Corporate & business accumulation growing and accelerating. Recent SEC Framework classifying bitcoin as a commodity, clarity act getting closer. I find it hard being negative when there's so much positive momentum on the ground.

StrategicallyLazy007

I think it's the European version of an ETF

Fritzbox5000

May I ask where you're from? I'm from Germany, transitioned from a classic ETF investor into a Bitcoin maximalist mostly for ideological reasons. I didn't want to invest in "safe" companies like Microsoft, Facebook, McDonalds and others, which are supporting warfare campaigns in the middle east or destroy the middle class. I also didn't want to keep my FIAT money on the bank due to inflation and the fact that banks are investing my money in dubiose finance products in the meantime. However, I'm not satisfied with the sole strategy of HODLing my capital but actually use this currency in my daily life. There is the Lightning Network for fast transactions (which I never tried and used), but are there any places where a Bitcoin only cashflow and ecosystem is possible? Are there any people out there, who managed to get a Bitcoin-paid job, buy food with Bitcoin etc. or is this something we won't even see in 20 years?

WellieWelli

The fundamentals that got it this far are the same fundamentals we have today that will continue pushing it forward. Beyond that, institutional adoption is skyrocketing, most of the largest global banks are integrating Blockchain into their systems and recommending bitcoin. Bitcoin ETFs are expanding and an upcoming ETF by Morgan Stanley's has the potential to double the current capital coming in from ETFs. The number of financial institutions recommending and integrating bitcoin into portfolios has expanded massively and is continuing to expand. It's reaching levels where the standardisation of bitcoin allocations is becoming possible. The tokenisation of assets & Blockchain settlement rails becoming mainstream, the new York stock exchange & London stock exchange are both building tokenized trading and on rail settlement platforms and NASDAQ just announced token settlement plans & partnerships for xStocks. As the use of AI agents grow, transacting anonymously between each other much of this is being done on-chain bypassing traditional finance. Stablecoin growth is skyrocketing with MasterCard implementing Blockchain technology. Corporate & business accumulation growing and accelerating. Recent SEC Framework classifying bitcoin as a commodity, clarity act getting closer. I find it hard being negative when there's so much positive momentum on the ground, I think 150k is low balling.

ptrnyc

Finite supply. So less. Unless BTC goes to 0, but I personally believe that the ETF's made that extremely unlikely.

wkndatbernardus

No, it's only a wash sale if you sell a spot ETF, like IBIT, and then buy the same ETF right away (before 31 days has elapsed). The grey area is whether we can sell a spot ETF, like IBIT, and then buy another spot ETF, like FBTC, without waiting 31 days. Some financial pros say that strategy is not a wash sale because they are different securities, operated by different companies, and some say it is because they both track the exact same asset. Personally, I solved this problem by selling some IBIT at a loss and then purchasing MSTR with the proceeds.

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **A few good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill Note: Breez does also a hybrid liquid/LN wallet called Misty Breez - the sats being on liquid means no need for channels although the payments take a few extra seconds. You'll also can get a free customable LN address. While talking about hybrid wallets, there's also Aqua Wallet although not IMHO as good as Misty Breez. There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (air-gapped) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [ColdCard](https://coldcardwallet.com/) - air gapped, Bitcoin only, has advanced features but a new user will do fine with one of the great tutorials available. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is not air-gapped. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better, although a bit more expensive, option. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

MangoROCKN

Just like any ETF. Set and forget. Too many people investing with emotion

WeakEstablishment686

Wash sale rule does not apply to a direct Bitcoin holding (property) but does apply for a bitcoin ETF (security)

Meoler9

Well, you'll be at the mercy of the custodian/institution with your IOU. Maybe they'll allow you to withdraw the bitcoin that they should be holding for you to back the claim to the bitcoin you bought via the ETF. Maybe they'll price it and give you equivalent in the new currency they or the government tells them to use. Thankfully we can self-custody and don't need to worry about these things and can just have our bitcoin :)

darkrood

Are you really talking about the coin that failed to break its own 2021 ATH? All the risk with exchange and cold wallet for peanut gain? Your investment in stocks and ETF would be more profitable and secure.

MagnumMeatball

I'm also invested in an FTSE ETF which makes up a majority of my monthly DCA so i'm fine with the higher risk there. After all i only plan to hold the coin for 3-4 years, depending on the run, and the ETF is obviously for 15+ years.

isBecause

Say someone under 60 had $100k in a Roth IRA and decided they wanted to allocate 50% of that to BTC. Their only options are to buy the ETF or, if they wanted to buy spot and self-custody, withdraw and face possible penalty. If the dollar still exists in 20 years, we know BTC will go up in dollar terms and that $50k would increase as well and at some point be withdrawn tax free.

isBecause

I guess for me it's trying to wrap my head around not thinking in terms of dollars. If someone has $1 million worth of BTC ETF, as we know the dollar today, that's a lot of money and can buy a lot of stuff but yes, debasement is causing it to buy less stuff for that same amount over time. If there is a "new" dollar created due to hyperinflation, does that same "$1 million" have the same purchasing power? Probably an unknown question bc we're not there and no one knows what a society would look like in that scenario.

TheRadishBros

Unless I’m misunderstanding your question, if the dollar collapses, the value of BTC versus the dollar would increase, so the value of any ETF shares held would also increase. Even in hyperinflation scenario, there would be a “new” dollar created that has some exchange compared to the old one, so the ETFs can realign accordingly.

isBecause

Random question of the day in my head. If people are buying the BTC ETFs and money is flowing into BTC via retirement accounts, what happens to that if someday the dollar collapses? If money printing continues and the dollar price of BTC continues to increase but eventually the dollar doesn't exists, what happens to all the money that was put into ETFs? Is it just gone? Does the institution (Fidelity, etc.) just keep all the BTC? Would it be dispersed to the ETF shareholder like now you get the actual BTC instead of just shares bc the dollar is worthless?

andreaste

The funniest part is this isn't even a meme anymore. Oil is literally trading more volume than XRP on a decentralized exchange right now. The S&P 500 just launched on-chain. Grayscale filed for a HYPE ETF. Traditional finance is migrating to crypto rails and most people are still arguing about which altcoin will 10x.

AutoModerator

Post is by: andreaste and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1s22bid/only_7_of_the_top_30_markets_on_hyperliquid_are/ I've been digging into Hyperliquid data recently and found something wild. Of the top 30 markets by volume on the platform, only 7 are crypto pairs. The rest are: \- Oil (WTI & Brent) — combined $500M+ daily \- Silver — $412M daily volume yesterday alone \- S&P 500 (officially licensed by S&P Dow Jones Indices) \- Gold \- Nasdaq \- Individual stocks via Trade\[XYZ\] For context: oil is now more traded than XRP and SOL on Hyperliquid. Silver alone does more volume than both combined. JPMorgan published a report last week saying this is being driven by the Iran conflict — when CME closes on weekends, Hyperliquid stays open. Traders need 24/7 price discovery and there's nowhere else to get it. The S&P 500 perp hit $100M volume within 48 hours of launching. And Grayscale just filed for a HYPE ETF (ticker GHYP), joining Bitwise and 21Shares. HIP-3 open interest went from basically $0 to $1.43 billion in 6 months. Regardless of what you think about perp DEXs, this is a genuine shift. Traditional finance assets trading 24/7 on a decentralized order book with sub-second finality. Not sure we're talking about this enough. What do you think — is this sustainable or just a geopolitical spike? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Subject-Chest-8343

To be fair though, this never happened with BTCC, the other canadian bitcoin ETF... So no idea what happened here. I thought these ''non-cash distributions'' were mostly a REIT thing. You can also straight up buy IBIT in Canada, it is listed both in US and canadian dollars. We've had BTCC and EBIT since 2021, well before IBIT came around. They also both use cold storage instead of a Coinbase account, like IBIT does. Personally that's why I hold BTCC and not IBIT. >and should not scare you to hold a bitcoin ETF like IBIT. Best way to not care about it is to hold ETFs in a non-taxable account, of course.

Subject-Chest-8343

Not a tax expert here, all the ETFs I have are in my TFSA. But if you have a capital gain of 14k, doesn't that mean that you can adjust your cost basis to 104k, allowing you to claim a capital loss of 31k for 2026 ? That being said, I had no idea that kind of sh*t could happen with a bitcoin ETF... I'm holding BTCC, which never had any kind of distribution, despite having been around longer. A non-cash distribution of 8$ per share, on an ETF that was 43$ per share, is fricking wild.

Subject-Chest-8343

It's not really an unrealized gains tax, they're called ''phantom distributions''. It's when a fund realizes a capital gain, then the tax liability is passed to the holders. A good example is REIT. Let's say the fund sells a property for 20M$, that they had paid 10M$, but then they bought another property for 20M$. No cash is returned to shareholders, but someone has to pay the taxman for that 10M$ realized gain. When you're in a non-taxable account, you just don't worry about it. When you're in a taxable account, you have to pay the capital gains tax, but you can raise your cost basis by an equivalent amount, so you don't pay tax twice when you sell your shares eventually. All that being said, I have no idea why this happened in a bitcoin ETF. I own BTCC, another canadian bitcoin ETF, it's been around longer than EBIT, and never had any distributions, phantom or not.

gizram84

You didn't get screwed by the ETF. You got screwed by the Canadian tax law. Clown world taxes like this don't exist in civilized countries.

ObjectiveJackfruit35

Yes, they arbitrarily adjusted OPs cost basis up, but that's not the reason for the capital gains tax. The ETF that OP bought in Canada is technically classified as a mutual fund trust. As a result of this, whenever anyone holding that ETF sells for a profit, everyone in the ETF is included in the capital gain from the profits of other users. Enough people sold for a profit in the ETF that despite being negative overall, OP was taxed with a capital gain. It's a completely diabolical Canadian system. So, yes, their cost basis was increased, but what this actually means is that the loss OP sold for is now quite a bit more which they could use to offset other potential gains. Canada's bitcoin ETF is not user-friendly, at all.

ObjectiveJackfruit35

Damn that sucks dude. For anyone else outside of Canada, such as the US, this shit does not apply to you and should not scare you to hold a bitcoin ETF like IBIT. Canada has some fucked up tax laws for ETFs, holy shit.

DarthBen_in_Chicago

Their AUM is under $2 trillion or $4 trillion depending on year and source. $8 trillion would put them above Fidelity which they’re not. I’m all for more issuers which will drive down expense ratios. I just don’t think MS adding an ETF is going to do what you think.

TheresNoSecondBest

Yesterday. Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **A few good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill Note: Breez does also a hybrid liquid/LN wallet called Misty Breez - the sats being on liquid means no need for channels although the payments take a few extra seconds. You'll also can get a free customable LN address. While talking about hybrid wallets, there's also Aqua Wallet although not IMHO as good as Misty Breez. There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (air-gapped) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [ColdCard](https://coldcardwallet.com/) - air gapped, Bitcoin only, has advanced features but a new user will do fine with one of the great tutorials available. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is not air-gapped. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better, although a bit more expensive, option. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.