ETF

MrBurtSpaghetti

Btc is slow, public, expensive, nobody works on it, it can't scale and has a mystery dev hoarding 5% of the float. The moat for btc is wall st, who's chasing the next thing already. Tom with ETH, Winks with ZEC, Lee with LTC DATS and grayscale converting the ALT trusts to ETF. If it's alt season then ltc is in the right spot imho.

MrBurtSpaghetti

You and me both. Here's my thesis - dino coin with a grayscale trust so yrs of basebuilding in crypto and legacy markets, couldn't ask more of the fundamentals, now with 2 DATS/miners and LTCN being converted to an ETF I'm hoping for the same volume that showed up when ZCSH became an etf to kick this thing off. 🤞

Suspicious-Holiday42

You know that even a world ETF can drop 50%

DarthBen_in_Chicago

Until it happens to an exchange. Even the ETF offering documents state this could be a risk investing in their ETFs.

papa_autist

Unfortunately BTC is non-marginable on robinhood. They only support traditional regulation-T margin, stocks and ETFs are eligible. OP could sell the BTC and then buy an ETF but that would incur cap gains tax costs reducing the borrowable amount and defeating the purpose of the getting the loan.

__redruM

Basic S&P 500 index fund, with Nasdaq on top. I like: - VOO: 60% - QQQ:40% There also a semiconductor ETF that has really been good, but it may be high now. That’s SMH. Keep an eye on it and if it drops below $450 grab some. I bought some in march at 385 and it’s over 600 now.

Ok_Wrap5233

At this point if you’re investing a substantial amount and unless you’re transacting in BTC there’s no reason not to just buy an ETF through a legitimate broker. Could also help shield profits from capital gains tax in some places.

PowerappsDev

It's up around 20% this year, which is (way!) above average for this ETF. Normally, it's more like 7–9% per year in the long run Ftse world etf

PowerappsDev

Yeah, reducing it to 10% and diversifying would probably have been the more rational approach. But honestly, it was more of a gut decision. I just like seeing my World ETF portfolio grow, and having everything in one place gives me some peace of mind

2xfun

What is that ETF average return if I may ask

PowerappsDev

I get your point, and I still believe in Bitcoin. I used to have more of a "fuck it, it'll work out" mindset. But with two kids and significally risen costs, my risk tolerance has changed. Even a small chance of losing everything stresses me out too much. I'd rather stick with a world ETF now. Just a personal decision, not wanting to spread FUD

PowerappsDev

I've moved everything into a FTSE All-World ETF now, and I feel much more relaxed about it. I've already had pretty good returns with it this year, so hopefully that continues

Dr_Zoonotikstein

Needs adoption.. like a Strategic Pokemon Reserve, or an ETF $POK

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Post is by: FeeParking4506 and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1x16sdc/ethereum_compared_to_btc/ My crypto investments is 70% BTC ETF and 30% Ethereum ETF. I bought about a year ago and BTC has doubled but Ethereum is down by 30%. Need assessment if BTC holders also give substantial weight to ETH or shall I sell my Ethereum and love the funds to BTC. I am not promoting one over the other. Just need fair assessment if Ethereum is as important to hold as BTC *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

riscten

That was the only time I kept on a platform. If I hadn't lost it all in a terrible boat accident, today, I'd probably do some in self custody, and some as an ETF.

LearnBitcoinCom

Thanks, glad the chart works. On the accumulate part, the strip under it is worth a look. None of it is the bank buying for itself: crypto funds for wealth clients in 2021, a role in BlackRock's bitcoin ETF from 2024, then letting clients buy in 2025. Less stacking it quietly, more opening the door for clients while the boss kept talking it down.

Pleasant_Maybe_5523

I’d start small and avoid worrying about timing the market. If you want to actually own Bitcoin, buy BTC and learn self-custody. If you just want exposure to the price, a spot ETF is simpler.

blue2140

Dollar cost average in. Trying to predict the short-term moves is practically impossible to do every time. Watch ETF flows, MSTR buys, and options activity.

Fear_Blind83

Coinbase Prime custody Billions of dollars worth of BTC for some of the largest institutions including Michael Saylor's Strategy and BlackRock ETF etc..

patricia-barros-7

It may help to track net flows as a share of ETF assets, too. A $300M day means less if the funds’ total base has grown, so that gives the threshold some context across months.

Master-Monitor112

I blame the ETF for most alt coins not hitting there previous ATH.

Icy_Dragonfruit__

If you’re new, start small and DCA rather than trying to time the perfect entry. Learn BTC first, then decide between holding BTC directly or using an ETF.

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **Good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (**air-gapped**) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is **not air-gapped**. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better build. I would go stateless instead of using their servers. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. There's also ColdCard, great features but recently had a massive duckup, I would wait until all of their code is fully open source, preferably rewritten by the community before touching it. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

quintavious_danilo

Only real Bitcoin is Bitcoin. An ETF is a convenient way to participate but it’s not Bitcoin. Real Bitcoin, however, comes with hoops to jump through, like money deposits, broker diversity, hot or cold storage and some more. Are you ok willing to give it a go? Just a heads up, it’s not that difficult to understand, I mean i’m not the brightest candle on the cake myself and I’m doing alright self-custodying my coins. You can do it as well, just need some time to read into it and to learn not to overreact when prices decline.

devCheckingIn

Massive ETF outflows yesterday point to those big drops the night before as likely being institutional short positions.

crimeo

It doesn't matter where you hold it. If quantum attacks break the encryption on any coin, the coins will drop to 0 value overnight. Everyone's supply will be worth nothing. YOUR personal wallet doesn't need to have been hacked to still be worth nothing, since nobody wants to ever buy your ETH again. Even holding shares of an ETF or something wouldn't help you, since the demand dropping will make the share prices legitimately drop to 0 as well (and securities insurance doesn't cover that, since it's an actual price drop, not fraud by the brokerage)

bigcoumbe

Any ETF as they are basically the same is a great jump off point. If you want to actually own the bitcoin, Strike (my preference) or CashApp make it super easy to start stacking

PotentialExtra1211

That created an opportunistic buying opportunity. Investing is something that you really have to learn through experience, at least for most people. If you are going in wanting to turn $1k into $100k in a few months time, it’s not going to happen. If Bitcoin is something that you believe in, then you have to commit to it, buy low, sell high. That means buy it when it dips, which it will, people take profits, or abandon it. There’s a lot different now than a year ago. There’s a lot of brokerages stockpiling it, a lot of governments too. There’s the clarity act, exchanges will back your investment if something happens, even though it’s not FDIC insured, at least Robinhood will. If you go into investing with no plan, just hoping for a quick profit, more often than not you will be disappointed. You don’t make money from timing the market, you make money from time IN the market. I don’t believe in putting all your eggs in one basket either. I have 3 cryptos, an ETF, and multiple stocks across different sectors. Getting rich quick is not likely. But on a long term basis, like 5 to 10 to maybe even 20 years, with continued investment, your chances of success greatly increases. It’s almost guaranteed. Billionaires love when the stock market crashes, it might take 2 years for the market to recover, but it always does. Otherwise there would be no billionaires or trillionaires. There would be no big business, there would be no banks. The government doesn’t bail out the working class, they bail out the money lenders. The best time to invest in bitcoin or any investment was over ten years ago. The second best time to invest, is today. Everybody wants instant gratification, but it’s not realistic. Over a long period, it is.

Big_Training4226

Just jump in and buy a bit, you'll learn faster watching the price move than watching a hundred vids. dont overthink the ETF thing, just grab some actual coin off a decent exchange and hold it in a wallet you control

Ocarding

Been watching ETF flows more than price lately. September's run was carried by roughly $2.6B of spot ETF inflows, with one day close to $1B. Since then it's dropped like a rock, and price has basically gone sideways under 87k. I'd want to see a few sessions in a row of $300M+ inflows before I believe the institutional bid is back. and we're heading in the right direction. Add oil pushing yields and the dollar up and I'm not that surprised we're stuck

Shadowrunner138

You'd be taking less risk by investing in an S&P 500 ETF.

keruancy

81% of supply hasn’t moved in 6 months means the actual liquid float is tiny. Wall Street (and every new ETF buyer) can’t just “create” Bitcoin — they have to pry it out of hands that are clearly not selling at these levels We’ve seen versions of this before, but the combination of historically high dormancy + institutions still in early allocation mode is different. The next real leg higher might not wait for retail FOMO. It could start while most people are still looking the other way.

eToroTeam

The divergence with equities stands out more than the liquidation number. Nasdaq at a record while BTC struggles to hold $84K suggests this isn't simply a broad risk-off move. If that continues, the question becomes what crypto-specific demand is missing right now, especially with ETH ETF flows already turning negative.

Hodl4BlastOff

Interesting. What are you seeing that makes you say institutional inflow? ETF/fund flows, wallet data, on-chain activity, or something else?

basketbun

You can only buy what others sell for one. Second , institutions buy on behalf of a client or customer, and wrap it in an ETF, it is still a retail end user

Queasy-Bridge-7524

I’m in the same boat. I think there’s often more risks involved with self custody than diversifying where you store it (e.g. by using an ETF or a third-party like River). Self custody is not for everyone.

Successful_Pin_2641

US market open won't let us break out i feel. Every day.. fuck wallstreet and ETF 😂 maybe after close one day we shoot out of triangle? Don't know shit though

soccerchamp99

Offering ETF = bowing down. Nice.

BarraraRoscarly42

One week after a monster inflow week is probably too noisy to call a demand break, especially with quarter-end in the middle. The part I'd watch is whether the divergence persists. If IBIT keeps absorbing flows while the rest bleed, aggregate ETF demand can still look healthy while buyer breadth is weakening. A few weeks of that would tell me more than the 10x week-over-week drop by itself.

AutoModerator

Post is by: ChangeNOW_Community and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1wyzrxc/btc_etfs_went_from_24b_to_241m_in_a_week_cooling/ was going through the farside ETF numbers this morning and something felt off week of Sep 21: roughly +$2.4b in. and almost a billion of that was just monday last week: about +$241m. still green on paper, but thats like a 10x drop. and Sep 30 was straight up red, around -$149m the weird part is the split. IBIT still pulled in \~$450m last week, while fidelity's FBTC actually bled about -$168m. so it's not like everyone stopped buying, it's more like blackrock is carrying the whole thing right now honestly not sure how to read it. part of me thinks its just quarter end stuff, funds rebalancing, and oct 1-2 did bounce back a bit. the other part of me remembers that a big chunk of the "number go up" story this year was literally just ETF demand so whats your take, normal cooldown after a monster week or first sign the big buyers are getting tired? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Low-Law-5461

Io venderei il bitcoin quando arriva a 100 k e poi se proprio puoi comprare ETN bitcoin tipo wisdomtree WBITG , paghi il 26% di tasse sulla vendita in plusvalenza però se hai in carico delle minusvalenze ( esempio hai venduto in perdita delle azioni o obbligazioni) le puoi recuperare e non pagheresti le tasse sulla plusvalenza del Etn. Uguale anche con azioni, materie prime , obbligazioni. Invece con le ETF non puoi farlo , paghi sempre 26% sulla plusvalenza. Almeno qui in Italia e’ cosi

Top-Disk2556

I get why you’re worried, especially after buying a house. But you wouldn’t pay 36% of your Bitcoin’s total value. The 36% applies to the calculated Box 3 return, after the tax-free allowance. Selling BTC or moving it to cash usually doesn’t remove the tax, and a Bitcoin ETF is generally still taxed in Box 3. I’d keep enough euros aside for your mortgage, emergencies, and possible tax bill, then only hodl an amount you could comfortably hold through a major crash

sylsau

Your Bitcoin breakout is someone else’s exit. **At $87,000, one investor sees the road to $100,000.** **Another thinks: “Finally. I can get my money back.”** A recovery can attract fresh buyers while awakening people who have been waiting months to sell. And here’s the detail behind the bullish ETF headlines: **Weekly U.S. spot Bitcoin ETF inflows dropped from $2.39 billion to $241 million between the weeks ending September 25 and October 2.** Still positive. Roughly 90% smaller. Buyers keep showing up. But how much supply can they absorb? **Bitcoin has a supply limit. A sell wall has no expiration date.** At $87,000, do you see opportunity—or relief?

GettingFasterDude

Check if ithe law applies to ETFs. If not then buy either iBIT or FBTC bitcoin ETF. If the law ever gets fixed, then get back into the real thing.

omg_its_dan

Nothing happens. Tick tock next block. I also do not consider the ETF’s as 100% “institutional owners” because a large amount of the ETF shares are owned by individuals.

No_Position_8581

if you use a hardware wallet you are trusting the less scrutinized software running on it or the possibility that it wasn't tampered with in shipping. Consider using an ETF or a trusted custodian for now and learning about self custody and risks and trust models/tradeoffs.

Nekochannnn

Honestly, $87K can mean two totally different things 😂 Some people see the breakout, others are just happy they can finally get out. That drop in ETF inflows is definitely something to keep an eye on though.

maternoeslovo

as adoption is making more and more progress such OG values as decentralisation in no way translate to value anymore. I mean everyone was praying for BTC ETF lol. It's a joke.

AutoModerator

Post is by: sylsau and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: https://inbitcoinwetrust.substack.com/p/bitcoins-87000-wall-your-breakout Your Bitcoin breakout is someone else’s exit. **At $87,000, one investor sees the road to $100,000.** **Another thinks: “Finally. I can get my money back.”** A recovery can attract fresh buyers while awakening people who have been waiting months to sell. And here’s the detail behind the bullish ETF headlines: **Weekly U.S. spot Bitcoin ETF inflows dropped from $2.39 billion to $241 million between the weeks ending September 25 and October 2.** Still positive. Roughly 90% smaller. Buyers keep showing up. But how much supply can they absorb? **Bitcoin has a supply limit. A sell wall has no expiration date.** At $87,000, do you see opportunity—or relief? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Kacper309

Can you just switch to ETF or Micro Strategy stocks?

Dramatic-Tackle-792

Most people aren't aware that major global financial institutions are slowing ETF purchases to lower the fiat price on exchanges so they can flush leverage and stack on the sly. They have invested billions to lay the rails for blockchain's integration into the global financial infrastructure. They make plans for decades. It means your bitcoin is safe and once the supply squeeze hits... moon!

Bred_Slippy

Bitcoin's price is determined at the margin by buyers/sellers in liquid markets, driven by liquidity conditions, regulation, ETF flows, leverage, sentiment etc.. A supply schedule variable can't capture any of that. It misses the demand side, which is hugely important for BTC. S2F models also work far better with assets that are consumable. 

Current_Custard_5911

I think the distinction is what you are actually trying to own. If you only care about price exposure in a brokerage or retirement account, the ETF solves that pretty cleanly. Self custody solves a different problem, which is controlling the asset without a custodian. I tinker with Moon as wellfor shorter term BTC views sometimes but I keep that separate too. Price exposure, self custody and betting on price moves are three different goals even though BTC sits underneath all of them.

mishonis-

Just invest in crypto ETF. There's still risk but at least you know with companies like BlackRock the CEO is not just going to drain the coins and pick up and leave.

Astropin

Bitcoin is America's casino? I buy Bitcoin via my brokerage. Again...no questions asked. And I'm not talking about the ETF'S.

pomplemice

I'm sorry this happened to you, but have you not researched much about bitcoin? NOT storing your seed phrase in email and on a notes app is like the very first thing you should know before buying any BTC. Seed phrase should be completely offline and only us a cold wallet. The other option is to just buy an ETF through Fidelity if you don't want the hassle of self-custody

Tschebbe

Can't you not buy ETP/ETCs? Basically Bitcoin ETF, but physical Bitcoin.

TheSauce775

This is the entire point of wallstreet.. they are trying to get AS MUCH BTC AS POSSIBLE into their little ETF wrappers, so that THEY control the bitcoins, ughhh im sorry to hear it man, such a tough decision.. maybe move to isle le man if you can? I know of a very prominent bitcoiner that lives there.. just gotta find a tax haven to keep those private keys in the jurisdiction of

Wait_for_You

Unfortunately, as many have comments already, you friend no longer has this money. If you don't feel confortable enough to buy BTC in the regular fashion, you should take advantage of different ETF in the market. Some below and there are more * **iShares Bitcoin Trust (IBIT)**: Managed by BlackRock, this is the largest and most liquid Bitcoin ETF on the market. * **Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund (FBTC)**: Offers deep liquidity and uses Fidelity's own institutional-grade custody setup. * **Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC)**: One of the oldest Bitcoin funds, though it carries a significantly higher fee (1.50%) than its competitors.

Living_Wheel_8657

Easy, sell BTC buy bitcoin ETF

Antique-Pie-5981

"Don't Trust, Verify" you could have easily opened an account and bought the actual bitcoin yourself. Giving your money to someone else to buy and hold your bitcoin is even worse that buying an ETF that holds it.

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **Good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (**air-gapped**) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is **not air-gapped**. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better build. I would go stateless instead of using their servers. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. There's also ColdCard, great features but recently had a massive duckup, I would wait until all of their code is fully open source, preferably rewritten by the community before touching it. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

Which_Drop_5877

If you can’t self custody bitcoin then do FBTC ETF. You got scammed

retinaguy

I thought I read that the ETF is not subject to unrealized taxes. Could you do an in kind exchange into an ETF?

MightiestMal

Buy BTC ETF’s

Smart_Membership2

\- The worst-case 36% unrealized gains tax appears to be dead; the Dautch government reversed that plan in October 2026. \- Crypto will likely mov to realized-gains taxation by 2030, meaning you only pay tax when you actually sell \- Untill then, the current system taxes a deemed return of about 6% at 36%, which is far smaller than the nightmare scenario you feared. \- Use the tax-free threshold: roughly €59,357 per person (€118,714 for partners) is exempt from Box 3 tax. \- Keep a small evro cash buffer to cover the predictable annual deemed-return tax instead of selling Bitcoin. \- Consider a Bitcoin ETF/ETP during the 2028-2030 transition window if self-custody crypto stays under deemed-return tax longer than listed products. \- Talk to a local Dutch tax advisor now to check how debts, partnership structures, and transitional rules affect your specific situation. \- If the mortgage still makes you nervous, selling part of your BTC to build a cash cushion is rational risk management, not a failure.

Savings-Leading4618

Sell BTC and buy IBIT. The bitcoin ETF counts as a stock. You can also try do defy the government, although heroic, you'll be severely punished.

phishow

I fear that this same situation spreads and the law to make impossible to self custody is to get everyone to exchange their BTC to an ETF. Blackrock

MalsKippetje

Once you go the ETF route there is also no way back, if you want to rotate back into cold storage BTC you have to pay 36% realized gains tax...

Alfador8

For people who self custody correctly you're right. I have over 150 UTXOs. But think of the people who keep their coins on an exchange, or in an ETF. They own zero UTXOs. This will affect the average significantly.

RobOTx63

Governments want you to buy paper ETF's so they can control supply and short with infinite liquidity. Question? Why would you not just sell off what you need to pay taxes at the end of each year, then buy back in with residual? For ex... 50k > 100k, 50k gains, pay your 36% (18k), then take the 32k and put it right back in Jan1 or later? you now have 82k cost basis?... if it goes down, great, add, you owe no taxes, if it goes up, rinse, repeat.

BoringClue8667

That doesn’t matter in this case. I am Dutch as well. They look at you have say 30.000 in btc at January the 1st 2028. Then they look at 31 december 2028 what it is worth. Lets say it rises to 100.000. You hodl, but have to pay 36% on taxes over the 70.000 rise. Unrealized. It is insane and makes my so sad. I have held into btc since 2017 and sold most along the way but wanted to hold 0.1 for each of my kids. I want the asset not some ETF.

henkgaming

Lets see, more than a year left. Otherwise: buy ETF.

PinkDildo69

From what I understood. The Netherlands will only tax crypto's unrealized gains, not the stock gains. Buying a crypto's ETF is equal to buying stock, so he will not be taxes for unrealized gains, only when he decides to sell

Generationhodl

how will an ETF save you from unrealized gains?

Klutzy-Sea-4857

Taxing unrealized gains on crypto but not stocks is insane. If buying a BTC ETF or stock provides the same exposure without the unrealized tax hit, then honestly just do that. Protecting your finances comes first. You can always move back to self-custody if the law changes. Do not let ideology wreck your finances.

thuishaven

My friend. The law is not even passed governance process. You are overreacting. If its 100% certain indeed either hold the ETF’s or exit a certain amount to de risk. But not yet. 

Reveal_Visual

ETF is the way to go in that situation.

KindheartednessOk623

It’s in a cold wallet, I know enough people in Netherlands and Germany that do P2P and cash. This is what they want. You’re just scared, and that’s understandable. As long it is in a cold wallet that hasn’t had transactions with CEX you’re safe. They think they can regulate Crypto, but thats far from reality. Why do you think they don’t do this with ETF and IBIT. Because that is what they want you to have. Fake contracts, just like Gold, Oil etc. Contracts are fake and they can regulate it. Gold has a fake price, and they can’t do it with BTC or any Crypto because there is an actual count of Tokens. So please, don’t let them win. Go find other ways around this. Like get a Paraguay citizenship its easy.

lenissius14

What a stupid law...why would someone tax unrealized gains if it's not for weakening the value of the asset there?? I guess that you still have ETF option, but yeah, srry mf

CG-Saviour878879

At this point they probably had it taxed as part of their wealth multiple times (I know I have), so the gov. knows your wallet. Only way to have btc without the gov knowing it now would be (imo): 1. Sell all this btc, get taxed on it 2. Keep that money on your savings account 3. With other money (for example from an income), start dca'ing into crypto again on a new wallet 4. Use small exchanges and small amounts (<$1000 per purchase) 5. Store that seedphrase safely away from everyone, incl. the gov. And still this wouldn't solve the issue of explaining to them (or your bank first) where the money came from if you ever needed to liquidate into fiat. Honestly at this point just open a new brokerage account and move the money into iBit ETF. Maybe keep a small amount of Btc that you're willing to be taxed on (even unrealized gains) as an emergency fund.

neosyne

Will a bitcoin ETF taxed the same?

DeFiBandit

Swap for the ETF

MooseLoot

Sell it and get a BTC ETF. Then it’ll be taxed like a stock. This assumes your country doesn’t have colossally stupid unrealized gains taxing for stocks (I don’t know of any that do, but it can’t hurt to verify)

quintavious_danilo

Did OP buy an ETF?

SpendHefty6066

Live below your means. Grind on your craft. Be frugal. Eat healthy. Get/stay fit. Dismiss all frivolous, status seeking, branded, celebrity bullshit. Save in money they can't fuck with. Be stoic about price. Never panic. Never FOMO. "supply is capped at 21 million coins under its current rules" Supply is indeed capped at 21 million. But "its rules" are in fact "your rules". You run a node to ensure that "your rules" apply to your stack. Your node will be in consensus with the chain that agrees with your rules. That is literally how it works. If you don't like **my rules**, you can **all** fork off. If you allow your wallet to connect to some other node and delegate verification, then your assertion of "it's rules" is correct. In this case you are a passenger along for the ride on someone else's boat. If your keys are custodied by another, then you are not even on the boat. You are holding tickets with your ETF friends in the spectator stand. Run a node and understand the power.

Upper-Media3769

Stacking subprime bonds into AAA rated bonds in 2007 was also dangerous and look where SPY is now. But I agree and personally I moved to FTSE All World but I wanted to mention SPY as it exists as a pretty liquid tokenized ETF as well.

AppleToastBed

Exposure to the asset in tax advantaged accounts and not having to worry about hardware wallets and key management or relying on sketchy crypto exchanges. I don't personally do the ETF thing, but it makes sense for people that don't give a shit about self custody or using it as a currency.

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **Good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (**air-gapped**) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is **not air-gapped**. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better build. I would go stateless instead of using their servers. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. There's also ColdCard, great features but recently had a massive duckup, I would wait until all of their code is fully open source, preferably rewritten by the community before touching it. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

AppleToastBed

Unless you buy an ETF.

IndianaGeoff

New highs come from new buyers or significant new uses. Identify those and a prediction has some merit. And nobody predicted bored people trading at home driving the post COVID boom. The ETF boom was predictable and most gain front ran the event.

The_8bit_Klanker

Also, the massive amount of spot ETF's now are a wildcard. Technically the "there will only ever be 21 million total" Is not accurate anymore.

Significant_Cat_8436

Buy ITM leaps on Bitcoin ETF's if you want larger returns without having to take margin exposure.

NeighborhoodBest2944

I suppose ETF selling. Retail or institutions do you think?

Successful_Pin_2641

Chasing x40 influencer shitcoins and wasting cycles and stress, and seeing btc X6 with ETF money that would never trickle down into alts. A X5 would have been way more than enough. I could just see my dream of owning 1 btc fly away. Only BTC by now on. The only true and mature investment.

Suspicious-Holiday42

ETF buyers like to short bitcoin, more than they like to short gold

Coeruleus_

i’ve been stacking cash every week for over a year. i was waiting for 55k. now i have 20k sitting in a 3 month bond ETF i don’t know what to do with

Affectionate-Sun8716

Agree with the other reply. Worth adding that "quantum ready" on a hardware wallet today mostly means the firmware can be upgraded later, not that the wallet itself resists quantum attacks. No wallet vendor can fix this unilaterally: Bitcoin still signs with ECDSA/Schnorr, so real quantum resistance needs a network-wide upgrade (BIPs 360/361 are the current proposals). Two misconceptions in your question worth flagging: multisig does NOT help against quantum. Every pubkey in a multisig is revealed on-chain when you spend, so a quantum computer that breaks the curve math breaks each key individually. And holding via an ETF or CEX doesn't dodge it either, it just hands the same protocol risk to a custodian. What actually protects you today is boring address hygiene: never reuse addresses. An unspent output sitting at an address that has only ever exposed its hash gives a quantum computer nothing to work with (it can't reverse the hash). Reused or already-spent addresses are the exposed ones. So: keep firmware updated, don't reuse addresses, and when post-quantum address types eventually get activated, move your coins to them.

Lord_Mythand

Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns. Also, btc's total addressable market is already almost achieved. No nation-state is going to keep funds in a traceable account where their adversaries can see the fund movement. Privacy is a must for nation-state strategic reserves. The best BTC csn hope is more ETF inflows and perhaps 200k by 2030.

Hour_Flounder1405

respectable argument. but sentiment does drive interest. and for all its glory since the first block, 2009, bitcoin represents less than 1 percent of all global commerce. In fact, one of the reasons bitcoin has achieved more everyday usage as a street level currency is mostly related to the recent explosion of stable coins. Imagine for a moment what happens when a new "coin" is available and can easily and rapidly be used as a street level currency, as common and as easy as a dollar? a pretty fair comparison. Worldwide, consumers are driven to ease and simplicity and the markets respond to that. And they desire security...FDIC does that. This does not exist, inspite of all of the innovation, bitcoin while massive in value just can't seem to transfer to areas of real trade where trillions upon trillions of "dollars" are used. Until then, it is mostly and simply a risk on asset, with little assurances and little regulation that would prevent the unthinkable. I live in black swan worlds. Bitcoin seems to have paced itself respectfully but the innovation hasn't much changed as a vehicle of commerce. Then it becomes valuable far more than now. Far far more than now. I think this is what also restricts it. It's especially prone to trading volatility that makes it undesirable as a national currency. Again, stable coins solve that delimna...and ETF's the same for the security aspects, in that the owner of the ETF isn't concerned about custody.. I probably missed a few points, but that's how I see it big picture