ETF

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Crypto index fund manager Bitwise has claimed that up to 95% of the trading volume reported to CoinMarketCap regarding bitcoin trades might be fake or non-economic. The amount of fake bitcoin trades far outweighs legitimate ones, according to estimates. The Securities and Exchange Commission has repeatedly rejected spot bitcoin ETF applications. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

CointestAdmin

* Relevant Cointest topics: [Inflation](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_inflation), [ETF](https://www.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_etf). * Relevant subreddits: r/OSHA, r/NeutralPolitics, r/ModeratePolitics. * Sort comments as controversial first by [clicking here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xpqt21/sec_rejects_spot_bitcoin_etfs_because_of_fake_and/iq5axtl/?sort=controversial). Doesn't work on mobile.

CointestAdmin

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many invidual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Cons: > > * ETFs have much lower returns than crypto, historically-speaking > * ETFs have management fees that typically range from 0% to 0.5%. Some actively-managed ETFs can go up to 1-2% management fees. > * You cannot directly purchase crypto using ETFs > * ETFs are a boring investments that are no longer technologically innovative. It doesn't make for an exciting conversation. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Cons: > > * There is currently no direct investment in crypto in the US. (Canada has 4 crypto ETFs). Instead, you can buy ETFs in blockchain or mining companies, crypto future ETFs, and crypto trusts. > * Cipherpunks might not like that ETFs are centralized securities controlled by traditional financial organizations > * For Crypto future ETFs still don't exist yet, and we're still [waiting for SEC approval](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/08/05/invesco-files-with-sec-for-bitcoin-strategy-etf/). > * Many of the ETFs that invest in DLT/Blockchain technology companies have a small market cap. The biggest 4 are: BLOK (1.2 B), BLCN (290 M), LEGR (120 M), BITQ (77 M). > * Most of these ETFs that invest in companies have doubled in price in 2-3 years, which is nowhere near the 1000% plus gains from crypto. > * Bitcoin and Ethereum Trusts (Grayscale Ethereum Trust, Grayscale Bitcoin Trust) are Trusts based in Canada, so US investors would need to buy them on over the counter markets. They're an indirect investment in the sense that you're holding a trust, that holds cryptocoins. There are inefficiencies and rebalancing, so you pay a premium for the coins. There's also a high management fee of 2%. > * If you don't want the hassle securing your own coins, why would you want to use an inefficient Grayscale trust with 2% fees and a premium when you can buy crypto on other traditional centralized institutions like PayPal and Robinhood for 1/4 of the fees of Coinbase (non-Pro)? > * You don't get staking or voting rights. > * Most smaller altcoins will never be supported in the future. If you're really interested in a single cryptocoin, an ETF is not the way to invest in that specific coin. > * It's almost certain that no privacy coins will ever be supported > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoqsv/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_conarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xp0c4c/daily_general_discussion_september_27_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Shippior which won 2nd place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > An ETF is an exchange-traded fund and it is a synthetic assets that mimics the behavior of a larger subset of assets by implementing said assets per a fixed ratio in a set portfolio. ETFs track an index, sector or commodity. For the sake of having an clear discussion only ETFs that track crypto will be discussed in the following post. > > The main advantage of ETFs in general is that they help you diversify at low cost. You used to have to buy 1 stock of each company in an index to be able to spread the risk throughout the entire index, costing thousands of dollars, but now you can buy an ETF for a couple of dollars and have the same diversification and thereby reduced risk. > > The largest benefit is the fact that people who have not been exposed to crypto before now have the ability to buy crypto through ETFs. They do not have to have any knowledge regarding any crypto but can just buy it through their regular broker. This also means that they do not have to create wallets, store seed phrases or even make an account at an centralized exchange to take part in the crypto universe. Next to that the taxes, which for crypto can be quite a hassle and require a person to keep track of every trade he/she makes, are simplified to the degree of regular stocks. > > Not only the risk but also the costs of trading are spread out through everyon who participates in the ETF. Larger amount of crypto can be bought and sold at once to minimize the percentage that is spent on transaction fees. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

CointestAdmin

ETF {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

CointestAdmin

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AloneDay8829

It's always stairs up, elevator down. Fuck these rigged markets - BTC futures and shorts but no spot ETF

CakeBurps

BTC can be a store of value as well as a currency. Several things need to happen first for it to really take off. Regulation clarity is a top priority. That will allow for trillions to flow in, especially if we get a spot ETF someday. Imagine BTC having a level of compliance that allows pension funds and retirement accounts to invest. Features like lightning network can transform BTC into an extremely cheap and efficient way to transact with the network, assuming it's done right.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Crypto index fund manager Bitwise has claimed that up to 95% of the trading volume reported to CoinMarketCap regarding bitcoin trades might be fake or non-economic. The amount of fake bitcoin trades far outweighs legitimate ones, according to estimates. The Securities and Exchange Commission has repeatedly rejected spot bitcoin ETF applications. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

CointestAdmin

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Practical_Ad_2148

I'm pro BTC, but you need to have a solid base first. I suggest keept it in the ETF and just DCA into BTC and HODL. An 3x for BTC i still far away.

CointestAdmin

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T3Simp

We may not see new highs for years. For all we know, we could hang around 20k for the next few years. What if the stock market flips bullish and Bitcoin remains bearish. Can you accept that? Realistically I would still hold onto that ETF, maybe invest 2500 in both.

Siliconb3ach

Grab 0.028 BTC and 1ETH. Then leave the rest in your ETF. Should scratch the itch and you can probably stake that in DeFi somewhere for an okay APY.

ronchon

I think compared to an ETF its definitely a more practical improvement where you can take real custody of it and avoid a lot of intermediary shenanigans. Them you have the question of physical gold, but to me they're almost 2 different use cases that dont have to be mutually exclusive. 🐱

CointestAdmin

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Mr_Bob_Ferguson

Why are you investing in crypto in the first place? What made you want to select some gold-backed crypto? People have many different reasons, however potentially mediocre returns for increased risk over the traditional alternative (buying the metal) isn’t one of them. If you want to invest in metals, either physical (which are then more of a hassle to trade and store …I speak from experience), or consider buying a metals ETF that tracks the price. A broad ETF will generally give you enough diversity to begin with anyway, so unless you REALLY want to get into metals, I just wouldn’t bother.

CointestAdmin

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CointestAdmin

#ETF Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by DaddySkates which won 3rd place in the ETF Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > From worst con to least worst one: > > - One cannot earn passive income by staking or providing liquidity with his assets. Neither can you participate in governance voting. > > - Only bigger, more established coins will be supported making small mcap alts invisible > > - ETFs are gains are nowhere near comparable to what we are experiencing with crypto currencies. > > - These are not investments like crypto or stocks, these are passive like investments. > > - High management fees make it less attractive for small investors > > > Not being able to earn by making your money work for you is one massive con in my eyes and a definite no no for a small time investor such as I ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoqsv/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_conarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xo380x/daily_general_discussion_september_26_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

#ETF Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the ETF Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > This is topic is a bit vague because it doesn't specify whether we're discussing ETFs in general, or crypto ETFs. So I'm dividing my response in 2 parts. These responses are US-based. > > --------------- > > **ETFs in General**: > > ETFs are bundled funds of many individual stocks that can be traded as if they were a single stock. There are many different types of ETFs, and they can be active (e.g ARKK, MOON) or passive (e.g. VTI, SPY, VOO). Index ETFs follow index markets and are a simple way for basic investors to buy the equivalent of a bucket of large numbers of stocks without having the complexity of managing each one separately. > > Pros: > > * Regulated by the SEC. Very low risk of being shut down by regulation > * Very easy to trade on stock trading platforms > * Allows you to diversify by investing in a bucket of stocks > * High security. Almost no risk of getting hacked, rugpulled, or scammed, etc. > * Low risk of account or balance loss due to user error. Customer support systems exist to recover from user mistakes. > * Very low volatility compared to crypto investments > * There is a huge variety of different ETFs (market index, sector, leveraged, inverse, active/specialty, exotic) > * Index ETFs follow market indexes and typically have very low management fees. Typically provides a 7-9% annual total return. > * Exotic and foreign market ETFs allow you to easily trade buckets representing assets that you typically would not have direct access to. > * Most exchanges do not charge transaction fees for trading ETFs. > * Market cap in the $10s of Trillions > > The biggest pros compared to crypto are that ETFs are low risk, low volatility, secure, and will allow you to sleep peacefully at night. > > --------------- > > **Crypto ETFs** > > There are 3 main categories of crypto ETFs and derivatives: > > * ETFs that invest in DLT/blockchain or mining companies > * Crypto future ETFs > * Crypto trusts, which aren't ETFs but behave similarly > > Pros: > > * The main pros for crypto ETFs are the same as for ETFs in general. They are regulated by the SEC and have low risk of being shut down by regulation. You don't have to worry about storing your own coins or not being able to recover your account. > * With ETFs, you can invest in blockchain companies and mining companies, allowing you more diversification of of your crypto investments. > * ETFs make it easier to invest indirectly in crypto within traditional tax-advantaged and retirement accounts. > * Fees to buy/sell crypto directly can be very expensive. Coinbase (non-Pro) and Gemini (non-ActiveTrader) often charge 1-3% fees for crypto purchases. ETFs don't have trading fees. > * ETF trades are settled near-instantaneously compared to crypto-settlement, which can be as slow as 30 seconds to 30 minutes. For withdrawals, ETFs use ACH, which takes 3-business days while centralized crypto exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, Gemini, take a much longer 5-10 days. FTX US even has a super-long 15-day fiat withdrawal period.^1 > * While they don't yet exist, there could be crypto ETFs in the future that allow you to hold a variety of different coins at once in a single ETFs. This would allow you to diversify. It would also save greatly on fees since the ETF gets benefits from economies of scale. > * Less hassle with taxes. It's so much easier to fill in 1099B and 1099-DIV for traditional investment accounts. > * It's much easier to set up beneficiaries for your crypto in traditional investment accounts. > > **Crypto Indexes**: > > * There are also crypto indexes (e.g. Crypto20, DeFi Pulse Index), which are DeFi derivatives similar to stock ETFs > * None of these are as efficient as holding onto their underlying assets due to administration and network fees from periodic rebalancing, but they do make it much easier to hold a basket of cryptocurrencies without buying each of them individually. > > --------------- > > Footnotes: > > 1. CEXes withdrawal time is usually based on when you deposited the fiat on a FIFO basis, so it can be shorter than the usual 5-10 days. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoq7s/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_etf_proarguments/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_ETF) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

CointestAdmin

ETF {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

CointestAdmin

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HypnosG

The same reason I bought some at 40k, potential gains. I believe Bitcoin can/ will break it’s ATH sometime in the next 2-10 years, and I’m able to hold onto this $5000 for that long. I could just hold it in the ETF as well, but I’m young and feel like I’m my current position I can tolerate more of a risk for the chance at more of a return. I’m not going to sit here and act like I’m in it for the tech or I’m some crazy bitcoin fanatic. I see an opportunity and believe it is a good one. It’s not just the fact it is down 60% but that does make the opportunity more tempting.

Ateam043

If you don’t need it as you say and you’re young then leave it in your ETF and do DRIP (Dividend Reinvestment) and let your money grow for you. Depending on how long you had that you may face capital gains on that money to only put it on a highly volatile asset where it may go up or go down hard. My recommendation would be to keep the ETF and do DRIP, and start DCA into BTC from extra money from your job.

Stoopiddogface

Will that be like an ETF where they have underlying holdings in various tokens?

BrowardGooner

OP is 20 yrs old, I argue now is the time to embrace volatility. Assuming OP doesnt need the money to cover living expenses than he should be fine. Consistently buying BTC will provide better returns than an ETF.

ancientflowers

You're talking about pulling money out of an ETF to put it in Bitcoin? How long have you had it in the fund? How much will you owe for taxes? That's a big thing to think about. It might be more like $3300 instead of $5k once you consider the tax cost.

HypnosG

I don’t need this money, and if I don’t put in btc it will be staying in that ETF forever. I have no intention of spending that money is staying in the either ETF or BTC for the long haul. Of course it would hurt to lose, but I won’t be homeless or not afford to eat.

magx01

>I’m pretty young (20M) with $5000 sitting in an ETF, I’m currently working but not investing any as I need this money to get me through my next 2 semesters of school >With Bitcoin being down so much right now, I’ve really been contemplating moving that $5000 all into BTC. The way I see it is, I have a much greater chance of a worthwhile return on BTC than leaving it an ETF and maybe getting a couple hundred bucks. Dude....no. Avoiding volatility should be your priority right now, not maximizing gains in a bear market during a macroeconomic downturn that has barely even begun.

Maleficent_Plankton

It's clickbait. It's a link to a 17-minute audio podcast titled, "What is a crypto ETF, anyways?" No actual inside story.

unbannedc

There's literally an invert jim Cramer ETF that was outperforming the S&P500

-send_me_bitcoin-

Discount, for an ETF or something similar. The price of your IOU compared to the value of that much bitcoin. The advantage is tax benefits for retirement plans.

anonymouscitizen2

Because those are paper shares, not Bitcoin. Theres no redemption facility to turn Grayscale shares back into BTC and theres a TWO PERCENT management fee. It’s ridiculous and it is clear the SEC doesn’t want to approve a BTC ETF so it’s just a money pit. Bitcoin goes in and never comes back out (for you)

Powered_by_Potato

It’s a discount on Bitcoin, not a discount on the shares. GBTC’s idea is that you can buy GBTC at the price Greyscale sets and eventually redeem for Bitcoin after the spot ETF has been approved. For instance, let’s say Bitcoin is worth 20000 now, you can buy a GBTC at 17000 and once the spot ETF is approved, you can redeem it for 1 Bitcoin, effectively saying that you bought a Bitcoin at 17000. The reason it’s down is likely because the expected date for the approval was this year but it seems like it’s not getting approved by SEC and they are planning to sue SEC but to no avail. More and more spot ETFs are coming up, making them lose the first mover advantage and lead to this drop.

ttterrana

ETF

CakeBurps

Can't have a spot ETF without a regulatory body or tax reporting rules. The chances of crypto as an asset class going to zero before regulation is extremely slim

NvrIdle

That bitcoin futures ETF sure helped make things really awesome for adoption!!!!

bkcrypt0

Canada has them. Europe too. But the SEC still won’t approve a US spot crypto ETF.

lordkingbro

I could argue that if you had bought SPY ETF or any stock in March 2020, you could have hedged against inflation. Correct that it causes deflation. But then isn't OP wrong about upcoming inflation?

Simke11

EthPoW (ETHW) and EthereumFair (ETF).

puck2

"That doesn’t mean that Bitcoin cannot swoon tomorrow or that the spread cannot go negative for periods of time (this is Bitcoin after-all and it’s all sort of made up). However, the multi-year trend says that the spread will remain wide and force Bitcoin higher" So now we know why ETF is denied, to keep this scheme alive?

Rongolian

Is there an inverse Cathie Wood ETF

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; ARK Invest founder and CEO Cathie Wood relinquished her role as portfolio manager at two of the investment management firm's exchange-traded funds, according to a regulatory filing. William Scherer, who has served as a trading manager at ARK since 2014, has been appointed to handle investments in place of Wood for the company's two index funds, ARK 3D Printing ETF (PRNT) and ARK Israel Innovative Technology ETF (IZRL). *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

HurricaneHarvey7

People in the comments are laughing, but probably don't understand how much money will flood the market when regulation is solidified and a US spot ETF is approved.

Cypto_Spaniard

Crypto ETF (BTC ETF), could possibly be the only thing to boost crypto hard these times.

formal-explorer-2718

> do people honestly buy paper gold What do you mean by "paper gold"? People trade a variety of financial assets related to gold. > like a note from a bank saying you own "X" amount of gold? These are no longer widely used. Instead, people use brokerages and futures exchanges to trade digital representations of financial assets. > That to me is the stupidest shit I've ever heard of. Gold-backed digital assets like GLD (an ETF) are cheaper to trade, easier to access, and often less risky to store. For example, you can spend value from GLD while traveling; with physical gold, you'd have to carry the coins/bars with you and find a local gold dealer.

Original-Baki

Time to make an inverse Kramer coin to complement the ETF.

redrumsir

> the op I was replying to was also mentioning options lmao, ... They were giving a poor explanation of what futures are. > ... whoever is taking the other side of trade when creating liquidity for that market is hedging that by selling or buying on spot ... doesn't change the fact they they would want to hedge, anyone that have a little idea about how the business of creating markets know that ... You're still imagining a market maker facilitating a trade like an ETF. That's just not what happens for cash settled exchange traded futures. There is no required "market making". The futures broker is simply pairing longs with shorts. If there is a price discrepancy from a fair value basis vs the underlying, somebody might scalp that with a hedged trade, but it is not the broker desk and it almost never happens for liquid futures. That's why Futures Trading bid/ask spreads are 1/5th that of the underlying. > What bullshit have I spat exactly? "Naked future" is not a thing for exchange traded futures. Longs = Shorts. Always. Period. You also pretended as if there is a deliver/exercise. i.e. You said: "If all those contracts were to be exercised there would not be enough units of the underlyings to deliver all the promises". That's bullshit in regard to US BTC futures.

walloon5

Its just an indirect way for funds that cant buy bitcoin directly, but who are allowed to buy US tech company stock, to get bitcoin exposure Hopefully someday there will be a spot ETF< and some of the bitcoin will peel off Then later hopefully businesses will work with other groups to custody bitcoin for them, with tech solutions, ike Swan or Casa And then later hopefully businesses will have some percentage of their bitcoin in play, with something layer 2, like lightning, same ways as they use websites, email and fax machines.

mexc-global

MX is the exchange token of MEXC Global. With an initial circulating supply of 100,000,000, MEXC Global has been buying back MX using 100% of the trading fees earned on spots and ETF trading since July 2019. Apart from that, we took the advice from the community and initiated a vote to burn 240 million MX that was not circulating last year. After the burnt, the number of MX Token remained is 450,000,000 MX Token which consists of: MEXC Foundation Reserve: 100,000,000 MX Token MEXC Labs: 150,000,000 MX Token MEXC Strategic Partnership: 100,000,000 MX Token Circulating Supply: 100,000,000 MX Token Use cases of MX token: \- Fee deduction \- Be qualified for M-Day & Launchpad token sales \- Stake MX to yield farm on MX DeFi \- Vote with MX to earn Kickstarter airdrops \- Exchange governance

mexc-global

MX is the exchange token of MEXC Global. With an initial circulating supply of 100,000,000, MEXC Global has been buying back MX using 100% of the trading fees earned on spots and ETF trading since July 2019. Apart from that, we took the advice from the community and initiated a vote to burn 240 million MX that was not circulating last year. and for other questions, we've already answered for others.

QuiqueAlfa

it seems like you are ignoring that selling naked contracts of derivatives do actually have an effect on the underlying since those selling the contracts tend to hedge those bets by buying or selling the underlying based on all the different greeks. If all those contracts were to be exercised there would not be enough units of the underlyings to deliver all the promises that were made which is what actually caused the tulip "mania" since it was actually an squeeze of those selling naked contracts worth more tulips than the actual tulip supply. What we've been told was a mania from retards buying was actually a mania phase of retards selling naked contracts and when asked to deliver forced to buy at any price. Naked contracts cause what is calles diminishing returns on the underlying. Think of money in terms of energy, the more energy is applied to the underlying the more energy you need in order to affect it in whatever direction. It is a complex scam and it "works" just because of that. What I described here is exactly why the US doesn't approve any spot BTC ETF, only futures ETF.

Sorry_Attitude_

I have to make him talk shit about Angelblock, maybe Ill become a millionaire overnight Reverse Cramer ETF is truly a brilliant invention haha, fortunately he mostly sits in stocks but everything he does brings disaster I haven't heard about him in some time though, Idk why he kinda disappeared from my feed for a while

savinelli_smoker

This is how gold died too. Paper gold was the killer. All we can do is to promote self custody and buy “real bitcoin”… if people want to side bet on price we can’t stop them unfortunately. Let’s just hope there will be enough people who value the real bitcoin so that the demand outstrip supply. If the whole world incorrectly believes that longing BTC futures or buying futures ETF is the same as holding real BTC then we’re fucked.

Julia_Vin

SEC should have no problem with a spot crypto ETF.

Fbastiat1850

More specifically, the SEC requires "Cross-exchange surveillance agreements" on the 'major market exchanges' trading the underlying asset of any ETF application. The BTC Futures ETF has that on their futures product. A BTC ETF does not. That's it. That's the technicality. The most recent BTC ETF argued that the SEC was applying a double standard, in that by approving a BTC Futures ETF they implicitly approved the lack of surveillance in the underlying BTC asset, so applying this standard now to the BTC ETF is a double standard. i.e. either demand the BTC Futures ETF have 'cross-exchange surveillance agreements' (because Bitcoin!), or don't demand these of the BTC ETF. Quantum Gensler appears to be in two positions at once!

scottonfire

According to chico crypto, it worked for gold for TWENTY FUCKING YEARS. And they have a spot ETF.

brohamsontheright

Except the ETF and Futures market give no fucks about any of that.

wkw3

It's why Gensler allows futures ETF but never spot. To allow big money to suppress the price by shorting. It won't work forever.

bkcrypt0

If Nasdaq can custody, then SEC should have no problem with a spot crypto ETF.

I_Love_Kyiv

Technically there are synthetic shares of BTC. For example: \-Bitcoin futures \-BITO: ETF that contains BTC futures \-Options on these ETFs In the future (no pun intended) there will be more and more of this. Yes most people self custody their bitcoin, but the convenience of all of these Bitcoin proxies may present competition to that in the future.

PennyPickerUpper

You guys want 100k BTC, get BITO to flip BITI. The BTC ETF if worth a 1/3 of the BTC short ETF. Bulls gotta fix that

PennyPickerUpper

If you want BTC to continue this rise today, help pump BITO, the BTC ETF, with calls out in the futures or help get BITI to dump with puts in the future. Getting BITO to flip BITI should be the goal of anyone trying to be a BTC bull.​

sandygws

BTC Spot ETF or Gensler having a boating accident. Either would bring great joy to the market.

CleazyCatalystAD

Cool story. Yeah, I am aware of that POS ETF…

Analyst_Simple

BITI is a crypto short ETF. Reacts very well with the market.

Fresh-Chemical-9084

Most people don’t have the time to examine everything to their fullest. I don’t think most people understand what they’re doing with their Roth IRA or what an ETF is, but they still invest

nicolo_ntm

The post itself describes a Ponzi scheme. Fixed return in a bear market, just for buying and holding the "ETF". Not sustainable, and amateurish just like the name.

DreamyMushroom

But you understand the stock leverage ETF? Where your principal will keep chipping away due to erosion effect ? Per say.. S&P dipped 10% then $100 becomes $90. My 3X leverage will become $70. Then even if it goes up 10% the next day , I will have $91 only when non-leveraged got $99. Erosions will keep chipping away in stock etfs

DMugre

Because people gave up on OC, seeing how those comment sections are fucking empty or filled with comments talking about whatever. The other day I made a post about DeFi ETF-like products, got two bot comments saying nonsense, a guy saying Tokensets are complicated and that this stops adoption (While ETFs are already a thing that people already use), two guys who asked me for info like I was this protocol's employee or whatever...so yeah, this sub got the content quality the majority of it's users deserve. They are the reason mindlessly farming moons exists.

nagareteku

Theoretically 0.499 sats will be settled for 0 sat whether you round down or round to the closest satoshi. This means that a thousand accounts of 0.499 sats will have a lightning network value of 499 sats but worth 0 sat when settled on chain. It is similar to a bank selling gold ETFs, the bank need not have as much gold as they sell if they set the withdrawal limit to 1kg of gold, and most accounts are well under the 1kg balance. Of course, this does not mean that there is suddenly infinite physical gold, but rather that the total amount of "ETF gold" will not correspond 1:1 with physical gold. Similarly, the total amount of Lightning Bitcoin and actual Bitcoin need not be >₿ 20 999 999.9769 0000 if you consider fractional satoshi that is rounded down. There could be millions, or even potentially billions of sub-satoshi accounts that are settled on-chain as the equivalent of 0 sat, but when combined could be worth few extra whole bitcoins (10b accounts \* 0.1 sat = 1b sat), bringing the total issuance to over 21 million bitcoin. It is possible that this can be gamed in an extreme case, if a quadrillion accounts each containing 0.499 millisat (0.000499 sat) were created, then 500 billion satoshis (5000 bitcoins) would be created with an on chain value of 0 sat. In a sense as long as these fractional satoshis are never claimed for whole satoshis, then there can exist more satoshis then there are on-chain, such that Lightning Network can operate as a form of fractional reserve network for Bitcoin.