ETF

FlipFlopHiker

Same here. I had to liquidate my coinbase account a few months ago because I've been out of my tech job because of AI the last year. I did buy some BTC ETF in my retirement account though. I hear crypto is the first thing people are going to sell when they are strapped for cash.

Illustrious-Boss9356

How do you store/use your BTC? On an exchange? Via an ETF? On a hardware wallet?

Mix_Right

Who holds the biggest stacks Satoshi Nakamoto: \~1,100,000 BTC Coinbase⁠ (customer custody): \~885,000-980,000 BTC Strategy⁠: \~844,000 BTC BlackRock IBIT ETF⁠: \~765,000-785,000 BTC Binance⁠ (customer custody): \~629,000-660,000 BTC Fidelity FBTC ETF⁠: \~470,000 BTC United States Government: \~328,000 BTC China Government: \~194,000 BTC Tether⁠: \~96,000 BTC MARA Holdings⁠: \~35,000 BTC Pretty sure they know what they are doing. Now, of course Jane Street may enter the picture. Do some high frequency trading pump and dump the prices at 10 AM every morning get things nice and low. Buy it up and ride the tide back up. Rinse and repeat

Easymacsauce

But look what BTC has today compared to then. ETF and BTC backed loans just to name a few.

devCheckingIn

It's all about Saylor right now (and to a lesser extent, the SpaceX IPO on Friday 6/12). The market needs to know what his plans are to cover these dividend obligations. If he's going to be a constant source of selling pressure week after week, then we're going down. Hell he's about the only one that was keeping us afloat for the first half of 2026. Or at the least we need to see ETF outflows stabilize. Don't forget we're still "printing" 450 new Bitcoins every day.

HorsedickGoldstein

Why IBIT over like FBTC? Doesn’t IBIT track futures prices and not a spot ETF?

Dosordie76

Just do ETF and chill M8 😁

shoecellar

Follow this up in reverse for sell time. Also watch closely to the ETF capital rotation. ETH already went back positive inflow

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **A few good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill Note: Breez does also a hybrid liquid/LN wallet called Misty Breez - the sats being on liquid means no need for channels although the payments take a few extra seconds. You'll also can get a free customable LN address. While talking about hybrid wallets, there's also Aqua Wallet although not IMHO as good as Misty Breez. There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (air-gapped) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [ColdCard](https://coldcardwallet.com/) - air gapped, Bitcoin only, has advanced features but a new user will do fine with one of the great tutorials available. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is not air-gapped. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better, although a bit more expensive, option. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

SimpleMoonFarmer

Out of BTC, any crypto may never reach ATH again. ETH is the most likely IMHO, but it may go to zero (it's possible), and so it may any other crypto, with a greater likelihood. TBH, as an investment, a Blockchain-related ETF looks better than any shitcoin, and it is a matter of opinion if Solana or Polygon are shitcoins. Paradoxically, I see more potential resilience in CEX coins (BNB, CRO,…) than in most shitcoins, just like I see more upside in Coinbase than in Solana, Polygon, Dogecoin,… The tech will stay. Incumbent companies will probably stay. Specific implementations (blockchains) and coins,… time will tell.

Mitthunder

The foundation at 50-55K is super strong, it is a time to buy, not to sell. The conviction comes from the new ETF´s and the whales have loads of orders down there.

Dependent_Swimming81

you think blackrock and vanguard would be setting up crypto ETF if this whole thing is a fad

Live_Jazz

Right, it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. The supply reduction from the halving as a percent of the mined supply is quite low now, but people respect the trend. Institutions mostly means “Saylor and people buying ETF’s”, and I’m not sure if that blunts or augments the market, but no matter how you slice it, cycles are evolving but basically intact until further notice.

Ricola63

I personally think ETH is done. I am out of step with many -I know that but I will share my opinion here. I think ETH grew on the back of the fact it had little serious competition. But it is, undeniably, Structurally and Technically full of flaws and those flaws are being increasingly exposed... I mean.. What Network is ETH anyway? Optimism? Polygon? or... take your pick. Each with their own rules, standards and biases. My background is in technology and when I look at ETH it is blatantly technically riddled with issues that make it practically unusable by the vast majority of businesses for serious use cases. And these L2\`s are there as band aids to cover those problems up, BUT THEY DO NOT FIX THEM and that is becoming increasingly problematic. . Yes, yes. I know. ETH has significant Enterprise use, but IMO that is due to community size, brand recognition and frankly many years of relatively poor options. All that has changed and when regulation arrives that is going to become increasingly obvious. It actually sickens me to see the Blackrocks and Fidelities of this world jumping on the band wagon and pumping ETH ETF\`s to the market when such deep flaws are totally apparent to anyone who spends a little time researching. IMO, five years from now neither Blackrock nor Fidelity will be using ETH.... Perhaps I should not be surprised.

BitcoinMD

If I were just starting out, I’d buy the NCIQ ETF and nothing else. It’s about 70% bitcoin and rest is the biggest alts. But it and never have to think about coins again. Money is divisible, so any time you find yourself asking an “or” question, just do both. Bitcoin or alt coins? Yes.

Quick-Nobody5800

I have a question why are u commenting so much hate like u are just sitting at home scrolling through r/cryptocurrency and u say I can comment here that “erm, actually crypto is a scam invest in ETF’s so you get 5% returns” who tf are you to judge others man if u like your ETF’s so much just go sleep with them and leave us alone. We do not care about you defending your ego cause you missed out on a bull market and now you can’t move out of mommy’s basement.

shy9691

Interesting perspective. Long-term models like stock-to-flow or Metcalfe’s law are useful for framing potential upside, but they don’t really explain short-term price action. Right now the sell-off seems more tied to liquidity, leverage unwind and macro conditions (rates, ETF flows etc.). Long-term and short-term narratives can both be true, but they don’t always align in timing.

zesushv

It was easier back then than it is now, little to no social media pressure, no big names. Now everyone wants to be right, pointing fingers, ETF Outflows, Saylor selling making headlines and whatnots.

ClearSnakewood

This is why people need to run these exchanges dry and withdraw r free everything into cold storage. And if you’re holding ETF, redeem for real coin and withdraw too. Stop letting them cook the books.

PandaShake

News can still affect volatility like the ETF hype, past cycles had various lower lows or higher lows during the bear too. It hit ath before halving, but the final ath was still q4 post halving year. It's not about exactly the same chart, but the overall trend.

2_kewl_for_my_mule

But what's the point of holding crypto when markets are at ATH and Crypto is down 60%+. Like why go through the process of holding "these cycles" when a less risky ETF performs better?

Miamiconnectionexo

none of that means eth is dead. staking yield, the ETF bid, and any L1 fee-market reform could re-rate it fast. but the 1550 meme is really a story about eth/btc and broken token economics, not about eth "doing nothing." watch the ratio and the burn rate, not the round usd number.

inphenite

ETF outflows became inflows today. Just thought that was worth mentioning.

lechiffre-wells

pretty much that. You can get more ROI in AI/tech then if you stay in BTC. When that well starts to dry up, and it will sometime, people will be looking for investment vehicles with high ROI and see BTC is >50% off its ATH? Yea, they'll buy in. ETF's? Market Makers? This administration wanting a strategic BTC reserve? It may keep going down but it's not going anywhere. Just start slowly DCA'ing in when you think the time is right.

Prnce_Chrmin

> Michael Saylor selling only “32” BTC has caused all this / Domino effect No he has not. We still dont even seem to know who has been selling this week, other than ETF outflows. Thats more so related to people wanting in on the ai boom or maybe the new IPOs. It could be Saylor sold a lot more this week which we will only know on monday, so that could still have been him. But its not those 32 bitcoin.

FnAardvark

Leveraged ETFs will not 2x your gains on the way back up because of volatility drag. The more volitile the asset, the more drag. As a matter of fact, if you buy and hold a leveraged ETF, you can make less than just buying and holding bitcoin. Leveraged ETFs are for short term directional bets. If I wanted to make a leveraged BTC play (which I don't) I'd buy ASST or MSTR. ASST being further out on the risk curve and higher upside potential.

Consistent-Heart2949

Ok my question in all of this. People keep talking about the next cycle as if it is inevitable BTC goes up again. In order for that to happen there needs to be an influx of new buyers. You have had enthusiasts, then retail, then institutions and then ETF flow. Where is the next big pot of money coming from to drive another potential high?

Excellent-Storm-5201

BTC sitting right around $60,750 and the 4-hour RSI is hitting extreme oversold levels at 15.4. Historically, the last time we saw readings this deeply oversold was during the capitulation phases of the FTX crash. While oversold conditions can certainly grind lower and stay extended if the daily ETF net outflows continue ($4.4B out in 13 days), historical data suggests these levels typically precede sharp, violent relief bounces due to shorts getting overcrowded. Key levels to watch right now: $60K acts as the major psychological and technical floor. A clean break below that opens the door straight to the $55K support cluster. On the flip side, any sudden reversal in ETF inflows could trigger a massive short squeeze given the current -22.8% OI drop and negative funding rates. Not financial advice, just watching the technicals and data points closely.

dj_destroyer

No, that's a good point. An ETF/index is safer because it can mitigate risk much better than picking individual stocks. In the long run, I still think BTC is a better investment but obviously you have to accept the volatility and have a long time horizon.

devCheckingIn

There's been underlying weakness for awhile now (hence, bear market) and the ETF buying dried up (leaving only Saylor), then ETFs slowly started to unload, then... Saylor made a genius move and took $1.5bn of cash reserves -- which was ear-marked to pay dividends on STRC -- and used it to pay off debt that wasn't due until 2029. When everyone asked, "Uhh... what gives? How are you going to pay your dividends now?" Saylor basically said, "Ehh, we'll just sell our Bitcoin!" That took a weak market that was barely hanging on and threw it off a cliff.

devCheckingIn

I should've gotten into that Inverse ETF yesterday, but I wussed out.

Excellent-Storm-5201

BTC hitting $60,745 today with RSI at 15.4 — last time we saw readings this low was during the FTX crash. Historically these levels precede sharp relief bounces, but oversold can stay oversold while ETF outflows continue ($4.4B out in 13 days). Key levels to watch: $60K as major floor, break below opens $55K. On the flip side, any ETF inflow reversal could trigger a violent squeeze given the -22.8% OI drop and negative funding rate. Not financial advice, just watching the technicals closely.

ClearSnakewood

Run the exchanges and the ETF’s. Let’s see if they all hold what they claim.

radiant_0wl

Strategy sold some BTC which conflicts with a lot of people's "never sell" ethos (bizarre imo). Stategy also pays a 11.5% dividend so it's likely they'll need to sell more, and cut the divy. There's been an outflow funds away from crypto ETF's too which may force others to sell. Their shares are also trading at a discount to their Net Asset Value, so it's more effective for buyers to purchase shares than the actual coins themselves.

champing_at_the_bit

It's not a coin, its a stock. Lookup what an ETF is

IInsulince

IBIT is an IOU. If you can only buy it through a 401k that doesn’t let you buy bitcoin direct, then fine, at least you get price exposure and such. But if you have free standing dollars to invest, you should absolutely buy the bitcoin itself, not an ETF that a custodian may or may not honor in the future. Yea, yea, yea, “What are you, a conspiracy theorist? Of course custodian XYZ is trustworthy, they will honor my database entry that says I’m owed what’s on my IOUs.” This is what everyone who has ever suffered the consequences of counterparty risk has said shortly before the rug is ripped out from under them. Every custodian is trustworthy until they aren’t. Every single custodian that turned out untrustworthy WAS trustworthy when you first bought. This is by definition, you wouldn’t have bought from them if they didn’t originally appear trustworthy.

colemusic1

Definitely. Although truthfully we honestly don’t even know where the bottom really could be, but I do seriously doubt we’re ever going to see $20k. TBH a lot of the downside volatility has been cushioned since IBIT and any other BTC-based ETF’s have been out, although there’s been something like $3B - $4B in outflows from them alone the last 1-2 weeks which is kind of enormous even if it doesn’t sound like much. But yeah, instead of -80% or -90% insane drawdowns, it should (hopefully) mean the bottom is a lot less low compared to previous cycles, we just don’t really have enough data on how cycles have performed **since BTC has been institutionalised.** That’s the real hard part tbh, I guess we’ll just have to wait and see 😂

colemusic1

A “trust me bro” wave? Mate, these are multi-billion dollar companies that: - have real customers - earn real revenue - earn real cash flows - have a genuine serious demand for it with a supply shock happening, hence the boom - NVDA is the biggest company in the entire world. It is the highest weighting in S&P500, BGBL, NASDAQ, SMH, basically every ETF out there. That’s not a “trust me bro” company, that’s a company with genuine demand due to being a high growth tech stock And, It’s not about being biased. I’m actually neutral about everything. I’m just one that follows finance, follows macro, gets to a deeper understanding of *why certain things are moving.* That’s not a “trust me bro” wave, it’s a genuine need for what these tech stocks / ETF’s have for the world. One could argue that crypto is speculative since almost all tokens don’t actually… earn any revenue. That doesn’t mean it’s a “trust me bro” asset class either, it just means it’s different. I’m invested in crypto, semi stocks, ETF’s, basically full diversification. But it’s completely silly to say that something is speculative when we have a semiconductor stock which is that of NVDA that is the biggest company in the literal world.

UpperMine19

I see. Thoughts on just holding the ETF for simplicity, for a noob?

RC-5

No, I have actual BTC too. Just wanted additional exposure to be tax free, so I added some ETF funds.

Electronic-Rate5497

To fund their BTC ETF Nothing to do with him selling for personal gain

LargeSnorlax

50kish was always my guess too, unless there's some sort of black swan event like Saylor fucking off for good. That's around the range of the original ETF formation. I'm honestly not even too interested at that level either.

Laukess

ETF outflows? [https://farside.co.uk/btc/](https://farside.co.uk/btc/) Looks like they have incredibly strong hands.

ClearSnakewood

Saylor does not custody his coin, therefore he doesn’t own it (NYKNYC) Conbase does. And who knows what type of shady shit they’re doing with other people’s coin. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if fractional reserving it, just like FTX. And I think these ETF’s are shady players too. Self custody needs to be emphasized waaay more.

ClearSnakewood

Run the exchanges. NOW! Real time audit. Withdraw to cold storage. ASAP! Let’s see if they’re all holding what they claim. ETF’s and Strategy included.

Ifnerite

Because they expect that price to increase, it is expensive, slow and taxable to doso. Same reason as you done buy things with a stocks or ETF. As you observe, it is, in theoretically, a store of value, and inflation hedge or a soecialtive asset.

PlutoPlaneta

its an ETF. you dont need to deal with crypt exchanges at all.

coreytrevor

Just use the ibit ETF

Lounginguru

People acting like Bitcoin is “dead” every time it dips forget that firms like CryptoQuant were warning about this months ago. Their whole bearish thesis wasn’t “BTC is worthless,” it was that ETF inflows were slowing, stablecoin liquidity was drying up, and on-chain demand growth was collapsing after the 2025 run-up. They basically argued that the same institutional money that helped push BTC up could also accelerate the correction once flows reversed. Whether they’re right long-term is another debate, but the ~$60k support zone they kept talking about ended up being pretty relevant.

HedgehogGlad9505

Makes no sense to use such a custody service. Either choose ETF or self custody.

AutoModerator

Post is by: Bcom_Mod and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/bitcoin_com/comments/1tx84vi/bitcoin_touched_62500_last_night_and_were_back_to/ Four consecutive days of over $1 billion in liquidations. I don't think people are ready for how ugly this could get. [BTC hit $62,569 on Binance Wednesday night before bouncing](https://news.bitcoin.com/1-2b-liquidated-as-bitcoin-tests-62-5k-support-amid-sharp-crypto-selloff/). The $60K zone is now the actual support level everyone is watching. We haven't meaningfully tested $60K since February, which if you remember, was a brutal few weeks. The year-to-date low was just over $60K in early February and it bounced hard from there. Whether that same floor holds this time around is genuinely unknown. Worth noting the consistency of the downward pressure: four days straight of over $1 billion in liquidations. Long traders getting absolutely smoked. $949 million of the $1.12 billion liquidated yesterday was longs. Leveraged longs are getting wiped repeatedly as every bounce gets sold. ETF outflows are at 12 consecutive days now. $3.5 billion gone in that stretch. BlackRock alone pulled $440 million in a single session. The institutional bid that was holding the market up through April and early May has not just paused, it has reversed. The catalysts are obvious in hindsight. Strategy's 32 BTC sale was tiny in absolute terms and massive in psychological terms. Iran talks collapsed again. Inflation data keeps coming in hot. The jobs report this Friday is going to be significant. The only thing keeping me from thinking 'full bear' is that the $60K zone is not just a random number. It's where long-term holders have been accumulating since the start of the year, it's near the average cost basis for a huge portion of the ETF inflows from late 2024, and it held twice already in 2026. If it holds a third time with the amount of leverage that's already been flushed out this week, the bounce could be substantial. If it doesn't hold, $55K is the next real floor and we're talking about a 56% total drawdown from the ATH. At that point the bear market conversation becomes unavoidable Watch $60K, because that's the only number that matters right now. 🔗 *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

Bluejumprabbit

That feeling makes sense because the narrative changed. BTC used to be the whole trade, now a lot of flows are going into ETF wrappers and treasury proxies so spot demand feels less organic.

malte_brigge

It would be $5 billion at last year's highs lol. But no, it isn't. Look at the price damage ETF outflows at that level (and even well below that level) have caused.

UnknownEssence

The president of the USA launched a memecoin scam coin. what is going to pump the next cycle? institutions are in. ETF is in. Congress is on board. everything went right. So where do the new buyers come from next time?

Milksteak_Sandwich

I think he is right more often than not. Everything he has said since the new year has come true, but he has a very balanced approach and isn’t just some bitcoin bear. He’s open to the possibility of super cycles but is cautious because of history. He also recognizes the effect that ETF’s have played in recent years. Nobody can predict bitcoin 100% but Cowen is very astute. Imo

mediumlong

Nah, there are degrees to these things. You could say that any stock or ETF position in a taxable account is "liquid," too. The problem is if you want to "sell it instantly," you're going to trigger a taxable event. By this same logic, an ETF held in a retirement account is also "liquid," as you can sell it and take a distribution whenever you want as well. While you won't take any capital gains hit, you will need to pay early withdrawal penalties. In practice, if you had a whole coin on a cold wallet, you'd need to bring it over to the exchange, sell it for your $64k in fiat, and then transfer the fiat to your bank/credit union before it could be spent on anything useful. That process will take just about as long as any IRA distribution. The only difference is the penalties / tax hit. But virtually nobody considers assets held in a retirement account "liquid," and equities held in a taxable account should scarcely be called "liquid," either.

daproph

You need to consider hedging as high put volume on IBIT might not mean traders are bearish; it might mean a whale just bought tons of IBIT ETF and is buying puts to lock in the price (a "married put"). They are actually long the asset but the options chain looks bearish.

mypoopypencilhead

Regarding the end of your post it’s blatant suppression. The ETF has for all practical purposes removed Bitcoins hard cap and it’s no longer trading like a fixed supply asset. On chain doesn’t matter when the majority of funds are sent through Wall Street where they control when and how the orders are filled. Will this change? Maybe eventually, but can we survive until that happens…

devCheckingIn

I was about to open a Short BTC ETF position but then read about "volatility decay" and decided it sounded like a no-good very bad horrible idea. Anybody have any experience with inverse ETFs?

DonTing2000

BTC is highly speculative. An ETF index fund would be much lower risk and something that you really don't need to invest much time with, especially b/c you have. Long horizon. At your age, you can take more risks, but keep it managed.

Osobnost

90% crypto, 10% ETF.

WPMO

I can explain this. Last night I was looking at a tech stock focused fund that I own shares of. It's up over 300% in less than 3 years. This isn't some obscure fund. It's not individual stocks. It's a well-known ETF focused on semiconductor production. It's existed longer than Bitcoin has and you can just buy it on any normal broker with your normal bank account, with normal taxation procedures, and no keys to remember. Those are returns that would thrill most people in crypto, and right now, or at least for the past few years, you can get them from the stock market. A lot of people with very high risk tolerance, or a desperate need for money frankly, are just going to the stock market now instead of crypto.

One_Needleworker5477

Miners are also rotating to AI, big money, whales, for me Bitcoin is reaching the end of its first era, from underground niche to Wallstreet ETF (crazy when you think about it) and I see NO narrative left to prop it up higher. Good thing for me I am out of that crypto circus since 2025 and pivoted to other asset mainly stocks (a bit late for AI train) and real estate (safer) Maybe I will be proven wrong, bitcoin showed incredible resilience over the past decade, but my assumption is not that it will disappear, but just slowly decline over the years while people move on to the next hyped asset class. Good luck with your portfolio and don't forget to never fall in love with an asset

ra246

I've started buying slowly; ETF average buy price was $74k, so until we dropped over the last few days I could see a good reason why we may not drop below. Now that we have dropped, I've bought a little more heavily in the last few days. As I say, I think we have another leg down, but if we don't, at least I've started buying in bits.

LOVER44OFLGBTLOVE194

Cut your losses before these magic internet money go to zero, I would suggest looking into real world stocks or ETF since they're backed by real companies.

WalkCheerfully

Bitcoin is the only monetary system they cannot 'control'. When I say they, I mean Financial, Technological, and Military Industrial complexes, who are the real powers in control. They can influence it, but they cannot control it, hedge it, inflated it. It's why they wrapped it in ETFs. So they can participate. This is why the U.S. is almost powerless over Iran and the closing of the Straight of Hormuz. Iran is accepting payment via Bitcoin and circumventing the traditional financial network, primarily controlled by the U.S. the U.S. no longer yields that power. We are witnessing the Suez Canal moment of the U.S. - a transfer of power / empire. Where Iran, Russia, and China now have a seat at the table. This is also the reason Gold has been on a crazy run. It's another asset class they cannot control... and who has been the largest acquirer of gold in the past 15 years... China. While the U.S. has been selling off its gold. Just like the British Empire did when the U.S. Empire took over. They transferred the gold from London to New York. Now we are seeing it transferred from New York to Beijing. This is also why the U.S. and the 3 complexes all went to China. China didn't come to us. WE WENT TO THEM. Let that sink in. Here is who went on that trip... Finance and Wall Street (Financial Complex) - Larry Fink – CEO of BlackRock - Stephen Schwarzman – CEO of Blackstone - David Solomon – CEO of Goldman Sachs - Jane Fraser – CEO of Citigroup - Ryan McInerney – CEO of Visa - Michael Miebach – CEO of Mastercard Technology and AI (Technical Complex) - Elon Musk – CEO of Tesla and SpaceX - Jensen Huang – CEO of Nvidia - Tim Cook – CEO of Apple - Cristiano Amon – CEO of Qualcomm - Sanjay Mehrotra – CEO of Micron Technology - Dina Powell McCormick – President and Vice Chair of Meta - Jim Anderson – CEO of Coherent Aviation, Defense, and Industry (Military Complex) - Kelly Ortberg – CEO of Boeing - Lawrence Culp Jr. – CEO of GE Aerospace - Brian Sikes – CEO of Cargill - Jacob Thaysen – CEO of Illumina So, you have to invest in assets they cannot control / duplicate/ dilute so easily... - Gold - Real Estate - Bitcoin - Buy direct. Not ETF and don't buy from Coinbase or Robinhood - those are not real Bitcoin. You need to control the wallet. Stocks are unfortunately just wrappers of their control over your money. It's just another type of Fiat. Yes, you can play in that game, but if you want real control, you better diverse into other assets classes they cannot tank at the flip of a switch. What do you think the Space X IPO is? And why 30% of retail investors are allowed to buy in? Not because Musk is thinking of us. And let's not forget that it will now be listed in all the indexes, where they are required to buy the stock. Lastly, why NASDAQ recently changed its rules to allow companies like SpaceX to be included in its indexes within 15 days without any seasoning period. Fast tracking new companies to indexes. Retail will be the bag holders. But do your own research and then come to your own conclusion. Good luck out there everyone. We're in for a crazy ride!

devCheckingIn

Wow ETF outflows are insane. If this rate keeps up they'll be completely drained by October. 🤣

Far-Photograph-2342

I'm leaning toward support test rather than a structural change. The AI trade is extremely concentrated right now. A handful of mega-cap names are dragging indices higher, which makes "equities at all-time highs" look stronger than the average risk asset actually is. Meanwhile, Bitcoin has already had a huge run and is dealing with its own set of liquidity events, ETF flow volatility, and profit-taking. The fact that BTC isn't perfectly tracking Nvidia doesn't necessarily mean the bull market is over. For me, the bigger signal is whether buyers show up around these levels. If BTC starts making lower highs and keeps failing to reclaim lost support, then the structure becomes harder to ignore. But if we're talking about a move from $70k to $65k after the rally we've already had, that still looks more like consolidation than a trend break. Sometimes the market spends weeks shaking out late longs before deciding on the next direction.

Far-Photograph-2342

A lot of this feels like narrative chasing. When BTC was outperforming everything, people said AI stocks were a bubble. Now AI is ripping and suddenly Bitcoin is "dead money." Saylor selling 32 BTC isn't exactly a vote of no confidence when MicroStrategy still holds hundreds of thousands of BTC. Cuban has never been a Bitcoin maximalist, and Kiyosaki changes his tone every few months depending on the headlines. The Mt. Gox transfers are known supply. ETF flows go both ways. None of that is new information. The real question is whether you bought Bitcoin because you believed in the long-term thesis or because you expected it to outperform Nvidia every quarter. Capital rotates. It always does. A year ago everyone was posting "why would anyone buy AI stocks when Bitcoin is up 150%?" Now it's the opposite.

Crazy-Egg9906

Could be both actually. ETF flows always lag behind price action so people panic selling now might be missing the bottom. But also crypto is still pretty correlated with traditional markets and if recession fears keep building this could get uglier before it gets better Looking in that chart the selling has been pretty consistent which usually means institutional money backing out not just retail panic

Express_Classic_1569

Came across this very interesting analysis so thought I would share here what do you think? Seems like Bitcoin may still be following its historical cyclical structure broadly with a bear market of \~1year with some serious retracements as well and we might still see low low 30s or 40k depending on how high this peak is. Do you think cycles are still valid in pre and post ETF?

planetpluto3

That is bad analysis. Demand is demand. ETF inflows and outflows is a closely watched metric. The most annoying part of ETFs is that it is harder to separate retail from true institutional investors. But if you think the demand from ETFs dollar for dollar impacts price wildly differently than via Coinbase etc, you have no idea how the piping works.

Street-Kangaroo4975

The mood here is always funniest when everyone is doing macro analysis and emotional support at the same time. One minute it’s “ETF outflows, 200 WMA, geopolitical risk,” and the next it’s “anyone want to buy a kidney?” Probably the healthiest takeaway is still boring: if one red day makes the whole portfolio feel like an emergency, the position was too big or too weird in the first place.

GeoSystemsDeveloper

**Daily crypto TL;DR:** * ⚠️ Bitcoin plunged below $65K due to record US spot ETF outflows. * ⚠️ Escalating Middle East tensions drive broad "risk-off" sentiment in markets. * ⚠️ Eurozone inflation surge and US Treasury sanctions on Iranian crypto exchanges. * ⚠️ Fear & Greed Index plummeted to 11, indicating "extreme fear" in the market. * ℹ️ Some altcoins like WLD, ENA, and privacy tokens show gains despite downturn. *News summary from the* [*HODLings app*](https://www.geosystemsdev.com/products/hodlings/)*.*

Catbatt

BTC is definitely a good investment, but I would diversify in a few ETF's too.

TheresNoSecondBest

Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **A few good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill Note: Breez does also a hybrid liquid/LN wallet called Misty Breez - the sats being on liquid means no need for channels although the payments take a few extra seconds. You'll also can get a free customable LN address. While talking about hybrid wallets, there's also Aqua Wallet although not IMHO as good as Misty Breez. There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (air-gapped) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [ColdCard](https://coldcardwallet.com/) - air gapped, Bitcoin only, has advanced features but a new user will do fine with one of the great tutorials available. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is not air-gapped. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better, although a bit more expensive, option. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

Glass_Culture_6209

Diversify! Would put half of it into a global ETF

express_sushi49

If you zoom out far enough, every system of currency is a scheme. The dollar’s power is from the belief that it has value, simple as that. Do you think all of the old people allocating BTC to 5% of their portfolios/retirement funds know diddly squat about blockchain technology or give a flying fk about decentralization? The answer is a big fat no. It might still matter to some, but the majority of money going in is doing so to set & forget. In time, BTC will behave exactly like a slightly more volatile SP500 ETF if it doesn’t already. Tokenization and stocks IMO will have a convergence point where it all just blends to being the same crap. And we’re already seeing tokenized stocks, so we’re kind of already there.

Leather-Ad-1253

Wash sale wouldn't apply to BTC on exchange or peer to peer. Wash sale would apply to paper bitcoin such as an ETF product. Spot BTC from exchange is treated as a commodity and you can buy and sell and buy within the same day. No wash sale. Paper BTC in an ETF such as FBTC/MSBT/IBIT, treated as a security and subject to wash sale rules. Now...can you sell IBIT and buy FBTC much like some do with SPY/VOO? Maybe...

deviltalk

I'm holding my ETF position but I have to confess I have doubts as to whether or not it can continue to grow at the same rate as recent semi and AI stocks over the long term, and it's taking all of my discipline to stay invested, with some other stuff doing so well. We'll see.

Donut_LordO

Just imagine what that money would have done for you invested in a stock ETF like SMH or in Silver.

Prior_Parsley3960

**Summary:** Zcash executed an emergency network upgrade after developers found a critical vulnerability in its main privacy system (the Orchard shielded pool). The flaw was caught before any known exploitation. **Why it matters:** * Orchard is Zcash's primary privacy layer and holds billions of dollars worth of ZEC. * Developers considered the issue serious enough to temporarily halt Orchard transactions network-wide. * Funds and privacy protections were not compromised, according to the Zcash team. **What happened:** * An emergency soft fork was activated on June 2. * Miners were instructed to stop processing Orchard transactions until a fix was deployed. * The transition caused some temporary chain instability and orphaned blocks, but the network remained operational. **Impact on users:** * Funds are reportedly safe. * ZEC trading on exchanges continued normally. * Wallets that rely on Orchard (including Cake Wallet) temporarily lost ZEC transaction functionality. **Bigger picture:** * This is the latest in a series of major Zcash security patches during 2026. * Critics argue that maintaining two separate node implementations has increased complexity and created recurring consensus risks. * The incident comes while Zcash is experiencing a major resurgence, with ETF speculation, institutional interest, and a strong price rally. **Bottom line:** No funds were stolen, but a serious vulnerability was found in the heart of Zcash's privacy infrastructure. The rapid emergency response appears to have prevented a potentially much more damaging security incident.

funance2020

Blackrock moving 6k btc worth 400M due to ETF outflows

JohnnyStrides

Gotta sit on it for 30 days (at least in Canada) before you can do that and still claim the loss. I guess you could get fancy and buy an ETF holding BTC. But would suck to sell and watch it go up lol

colemusic1

Gotta still keep in mind though that things have changed from previous halving cycles. Institutionalisation into ETF’s, much deeper liquidity, etc With that said, I don’t disagree, but it is still more of a structure than some kind of certainty about it reaching X price by Y date due to a 4 year cycle. It has historically followed that, by we don’t have enough data on how these halving cycles have behaved since its institutionalisation let alone how much deeper liquidity is now versus 2020 or even 2024, etc

ClearSnakewood

Every rehypotecated coin requires a sucker leaving their coin on the exchange or ETF. SBF is drooling from jail as we speak.

ClearSnakewood

This is why people need to withdraw their fucking coin from these ETF’s and exchanges into cold storage man. They’ll keep playing with us till we learn. The FTX style playbook is still alive. We need to organize an exchange run and run them dry. Or we’re forever fucked in these trading games.

mypoopypencilhead

Retail and Institutions using the ETF as the primary means to get exposure instead of buying from an exchange. Inflows into the etf can have zero price impact vs those same flows buying on coinbase or kraken would get guaranteed reactions. 

mypoopypencilhead

Much of the ETF inflows over the last year don’t even hit the public order books they are either used to fill institutional shorts or are given to private deals with miners (so no price impact). However any outflow that happens is immediately smashed in the public order books which is why it’s price action is so lopsided 

mypoopypencilhead

ETF killed them. They don’t have Wall Street size to compete imo

PeachScary413

Bro how do people still think the ETF lose money when BTC/ETH go down? 💀😭 They are buying it with retail money and just collecting fees, they couldn't care less if it goes to zero lmaooo

zesushv

I don't think so, we are at the mercy of ETF now. As long as the outflows continue, the bottom is not in yet. Brace yourself.

-rosslyn26-

Mi sembra abbastanza "normale" considerare gli ETF come un grado di spostare il mercato. Sia in ingresso che in uscita la filosofia dei detentori di ETF è diversa dai tradizionali HODLer. Ti consiglierei di fare una gerarchia mentale degli investimenti... ti renderai conto che in un mondo con tassi dei treasury allettanti, euforia da AI earnings e necessità di tamponare i costi del petrolio, vendere una cosa "misteriosa ed inutile" come Bitcoin è normale.

HoldCtrlW

# 1. The $124k+ Peak: Powered by Retail FOMO 🚀 Bitcoin didn't smash past $124k because of boring institutional fund flows or Wall Street suits. It was entirely driven by a massive, organic wave of retail hype, viral social media trends, and everyday investors rushing into the market. Wall Street’s ETFs were just sitting on the sidelines watching the chaos. The real engine was the collective power of millions of individual believers creating a cultural supply shock that launched us into six figures. # 2. The Correction: The Saylor Effect 📉 So, why the recent crash? Look no further than Michael Saylor selling 32 BTC. People want to claim this is "pocket change," but they completely misunderstand the psychological weight of a modern-day Maxi selling even a single satoshi. The moment the ultimate HODLer blinked, it sent shockwaves through the entire ecosystem, destroying retail confidence. This dip is the direct result of that core betrayal, while ETF inflows remained completely steady and irrelevant to the price drop. # 3. The Next Surge: The "No One is Selling" Reality 🏔️ Here is the real hot take for the next leg up: The next Bitcoin price surge will see absolutely zero sellers at the top, only frantic buyers. Why? Because the vast majority of the supply is back in the hands of diamond-handed retail natives who despise traditional profit-taking algorithms and risk-management models. Unlike corporate entities, these ideological investors will ruthlessly refuse to lock in gains, aiming instead for hyperbitcoinization. The days of predictable institutional sell-offs are fading; the next peak is going to trigger an infinite squeeze because nobody is willing to sell their hard-earned sound money. We have finally broken free from our dependence on ETFs, and this marks the beautiful rebirth of Bitcoin exactly as it was always meant to be.

CODE_HEIST

The ETF outflow streak is probably the cleanest signal in that list. Price drops happen all the time in crypto, but persistent outflows plus extreme fear tells you positioning is changing, not just one headline causing noise. For trading, I would still wait for whether BTC can reclaim a level after the outflows slow. Sentiment alone is not an entry.

AutoModerator

Post is by: FitCommunication3 and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1tvsbse/22_5k_saved_etf_or_stocks_also_tried_weex/ M-22 with like 5k saved. Took 4ever in this economy. keep going back n forth on investin. ETF n chill? or pick sum stocks like nvda? also weirdly into copper n silver lol. tried crypto but fees r crazy for small amounts. almost 1% for some eth. thats stupid. tried weex**（** under 1%**）**. not sayin its the best, just what i tried. honestly just want somewhere that doesnt eat my money. not askin for a shill. just curious what other people actually use. pls dont roast me lol. genuinely askin. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

ClearSnakewood

NOT if they hold it on an exchange. People really need to get their coin OFF of these exchanges and ETF’s and Wallstreet paper products man… Including MSTR.

Medium_Change4574

ETF sell orders are locked & loaded

Patient_Craft2195

This is the framing the maxis aren't using and the bears aren't smart enough to use. BTC has historically *led* equities at liquidity inflection points — both directions. It led the rally off the March 2020 COVID lows by weeks, led the 2021 top, led the 2022 bottom. If that pattern holds, current divergence is either BTC sniffing out tightening that the S&P hasn't priced, or BTC just being noisy while equities ride the AI capex narrative. The tell will be credit spreads. If IG and HY spreads start widening while stocks stay calm, OP is right and BTC is the canary. If spreads stay tight and AI earnings keep absorbing the liquidity story, BTC's weakness is idiosyncratic — cycle exhaustion, ETF flows turning, miner selling, take your pick. Right now I lean toward "BTC is leading" because the divergence is too clean to be random. But that's a thesis, not a prediction.

Unable_Beat_3194

There is always a counterparty, every sale has a buyer whether it is a market maker/taker, arbritrage, margin brokers or MEV trader. ETF settling between internal clients and flash loans especially same block executions rely on a consistent liquidity pool to have fast instant settlements. The point of having a large count coin is that you become the guarantor for liquidity between all these parties. That is one of the biggest reasons to be a treasury. You act as a central bank for the asset class similar to how soverign central banks issue overnight interbank funds.