ETF

devCheckingIn

If you believe people like Michael Howell, we've been in a global liquidity crunch and it hurts assets like BTC more than any other. Either way, the ETF outflows tell the story and the momentum is still intact. Retail has no money to step in, and those who do are consistently buying the stock market dips. DATs like Strategy and Strive buy some BTC, but nowhere near enough to make up for the newly mined BTC added to the supply every week.

Rainbowfartsss

Its enough to regulate it, not allowing it connections to the banking system for example, in order to keep it handicapped as a financial asset and that way bleed it out. Very unlikely to happen with all the acceptance it now has, and all the ETF’s etc. But as an answer to your statement, something can in practice be banned by choking it.

Scared-Permit2587

It is funny that all the shout from the hilltops self custody "my keys, my btc" crowd have had far more problems than the BTC ETF folk.

read_more_comments

There is nothing worse than an uninformed person spewing nonsense as advise to others. 1. No wallet is involved, it's an exchange. The risk with an exchange is in it being hacked. Thus you have the same exposure holding on coinbase as you do holding IBIT etf. 2. You don't have recourse. You should read the prospectus for IBIT, they have a dozen pages of how you could lose all your money. Here's a sample: ----- 1. Bitcoin theft or hacking: If the custodian's Bitcoin is stolen, transactions generally cannot be reversed. Recovery may be impossible, leaving shareholders exposed to permanent losses. 2. Lost or compromised private keys: If the private keys controlling the trust's Bitcoin are lost, destroyed, or compromised, those holdings could become permanently inaccessible. 3. Coinbase custodian bankruptcy: IBIT relies on Coinbase Custody to safeguard its Bitcoin. Although the trust has contractual protections, BlackRock acknowledges uncertainty about how a bankruptcy court would treat those assets. In an adverse scenario, the trust could face substantial losses or potentially become an unsecured creditor. 4. Insurance is extremely limited relative to assets under management: The prospectus describes up to $320 million in commercial crime insurance maintained by Coinbase Global, shared across relevant Coinbase entities and customers. This is NOT $320 million reserved for IBIT. There is no guarantee that a particular loss would be covered or reimbursed. 5. Limited liability and legal recourse: BlackRock, the trustee, and custodians have contractual limitations on liability. Depending on the circumstances, shareholders may have limited ability to recover losses from theft, operational failures, or other custody-related events. 6. Market disruptions and trading risks: Problems involving authorized participants, counterparties, or the creation/redemption process could cause IBIT shares to trade at significant discounts to the underlying Bitcoin value. 7. No guarantee from BlackRock: Despite BlackRock's name being associated with the ETF, it does not guarantee your principal or promise to replace lost Bitcoin. FDIC insurance does not protect IBIT's underlying holdings, and SIPC protection for eligible brokerage accounts does not cover investment losses within the trust.

kswiss702

Wrong….you loose your wallet, it gets stolen you are shit out of luck….you have re course if your funds are held in the ETF

kswiss702

Actually what you can consider doing is . Buy a majority in the ETF say 75% so you know it’s secure then buy it from and exchange a small amount and learn how to store it on your own

kswiss702

The risk is the security he is new to BTC. I would just buy the ETF through blackrock if you’re new and want to minimize stress that’s the easiest and safest way

Jogi1811

If it was in bitcoin right now and I needed to close on a home this year I would use the $100,000 USD. I believe in the bitcoin cycle but also know this may not continue. Until it breaks I will continue to follow it's trend. There is no point in selling low if you believe there is more growth to be had in Bitcoin. The amount my $100,000 will generate in a long term ETF will be considerably less.

kobriks

Buy ETF. Purists be damned

TheresNoSecondBest

>is there any advice anyone could give me? Congrats on the move, it's never too late, [despite new people thinking otherwise](https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/rskpuf/i_have_only_600_bitcoinsi_missed_the_bus/). ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. So is Broken Money by Lyn Alden. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, emails, private messages on other social media, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick by investing into some website. They all are scammers. Even the hot Asian chick, he's a scammer too. **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, next week or at the end of the year.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least the first 210,000 block cycle**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding tokens just because someone on YT told them to. If you don't like losing money in [failed coins](https://www.coingecko.com/research/publications/how-many-cryptocurrencies-failed), avoid. DCA is probably the best approach. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. This [DCA calculator](https://21vox.com/dca-calculator) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. This [DCA blog](https://er-bybitcoin.com/) is pretty interesting too and compares buying bitcoin VS stocks. Now, don't buy some fake bitcoin at a spot ETF place or similar, **get the real thing** that you can withdraw anytime you want. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. **Good wallet choices:** [https://blockstream.com/app/](https://blockstream.com/app/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://www.sparrowwallet.com](https://www.sparrowwallet.com) - top desktop wallet [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. I prefer the desktop version but it works on mobile too. **Lightning wallets** to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix - very good wallet, uses Tor for extra privacy, easy for anyone new [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - great UI, fast and clean. The app runs a full LND node on your phone and you have the ability to easily open channels to whatever nodes you like. [https://zeusln.com/](https://zeusln.com/) Zeus - impressive wallet with many features, can even generate Nostr keys There are also custodial LN wallet but I would honestly avoid using them because you have to trust the wallet operator not to steal your money. Their only advantage is that they are incredibly easy to use, although it might cost you big one day. To keep up to date with spending wallets, visit r/TheLightningNetwork at least once a while and perhaps r/RGB in the future. **Hardware Wallets** (to store larger amounts): [Trezor](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. If you can afford it, opt for Safe 7 (**air-gapped**) and use the Bitcoin only firmware as it's safer than a multi coin software. [BitBox02](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/) - another great little device, opt for the more secure Bitcoin ONLY version (less coins = less code = less chance for a hidden bug or a backdoor). Sadly, this device is **not air-gapped**. [Jade](https://blockstream.com/jade) - air gapped, fully open source, Bitcoin only, great features. There's a newer version called Jade Plus, it has much better camera and overall is a better build. I would go stateless instead of using their servers. You can even [build it on your own](https://github.com/Blockstream/jade/), if you feel adventurous. [Seedsigner](https://github.com/SeedSigner/seedsigner) - another DIY, fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, not for you if you're just starting up but something to consider later. [Krux wallet](https://selfcustody.github.io/krux/) - one more DIY hardware device, I love this one for many reasons. Similar to Seedsigner, it's fully open source, air gapped, Bitcoin only hardware wallet, that is not for you right now if you're just starting up, but something to consider at a later stage and/or to up the security of your bitcoin. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend it as it's not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, recently said they're capable of sending customers' keys out just with a firmware update, making is an expensive hot wallet. The opposite of what you want from a cold wallet. **Stay away**, save yourself a headache in the future. The same goes for many other hardware wallets that are too new or filled with too much of unnecessary shitcoin code. Stay away. There's also ColdCard, great features but recently had a massive duckup, I would wait until all of their code is fully open source, preferably rewritten by the community before touching it. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different from the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey. Also, [check the sidebar](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/about) that's filled with lots of great info and if you have any questions, visit r/BitcoinBeginners or r/Bitcoin and look for the answers.

kswiss702

Buy it as an ETF through a brokerage. Ibit is blackrocks ETF

zachmoe

Just get a schwab account and get the ETF.

Alexander-305

I'd say the flows, at least for ETH. CPI hit everything, but on a 24h basis BTC is down about 2.3% while ETH is down about 4.2%, so there's an ETH-specific seller on top of the macro move, and roughly $550M of ETF outflows in about a week and a half is the obvious one. BitMine is real demand, but ~$20M a week against ~$185M out in a single day isn't close. And since most of its stack is staked, it shrinks liquid float more than it props up price day to day. The 24h low was about $2,003, so $2k has already been tested once. If outflows slow and that level holds, sellers start to look tired. If it breaks while the ETFs are still bleeding, I wouldn't lean on the round number much.

BeautifulSeason8387

200k is without etf... ETF isn't regulate for crypto actually, institutional can sell twice for one buy (and they do), so this decreases the bitcoin potential ath and increase the earning of institutional

growin60sec

I think the ETF flows matter more for ETH specifically, while CPI set the mood for everything. The $184.5M outflow on Monday, on top of $365M the week before, is direct selling pressure on ETH, and BitMine buying about $20M worth is just too small to offset that. CPI explains why risk assets sold off, but the size and persistence of the ETF outflows is what makes ETH look weak relative to the rest of the market. The $2,000 level is worth watching, since losing it could trigger more ETF redemptions.

WakingUpBlind

If you see Bitcoin, or any other asset, as an investment, ask yourself, before investing: (1) your timeline; and (2) psychological tolerance for loss. 1. You made no mention for how long you're looking to hold Bitcoin. But, based on your post, it's short term. This hints that you're looking for a get-rich-quick scheme. It's possible for Bitcoin. However, as you admit, the market is unpredictable. A long term investor (10+ years) would just hold and ignore the day-to-day fluctuations. Additionally, they would buy the dip. 2. It seems that you overestimated your loss tolerance. For a speculative asset, especially as volatile as Bitcoin, you should have a stop loss before entering, which appears that you do not considering this post. If I were in your position and didn't need the money now, I would hold and invest in a low cost, broad based index fund (ETF), build that ETF to the point that the Bitcoin position reaches a point that I am comfortable writing off before speculating again in Bitcoin.

ThereIsNoGovernance

The entire CEX/ETF industry didn't just shot it's foot, it blew it's entire leg off. If you trust these entities you are an utter fool. NOT YOUR KEYS, NOT YOUR COINS.

coconut1890

Let me rephrase what I said so you maybe understand me: if you DCA'd into BTC from 5 years ago until this point, you legit will have been worse off than doing the same in gold or an all-world ETF (and like someone else said, literally in US treasury bills too). No shit buying from the bottom gives you the best gains, as if most people can time the bottom perfectly. This means, from an investor who just wants to DCA monthly, the "BTC is a good asset to DCA" thesis is hanging by a thread. But as I said before, I'm not changing my strategy just yet.

MikeMiller8888

Mt. Gox isn’t a relevant example anymore now that we have mass market adoption with ETF funds.

MelangeBot

Two guys play the Bitcoin game. One started with 10 million dollars, bought Bitcoin once and sold it for 40% gain over 1.5 years to make 4 million dollars. But then he got greedy and put in all his money and lost 10 millon dollars on a margin bet after which he chickened out. He still has 4 million dollars which he put on the bank in an ETF account that makes him $260 000 a year. He gets to spend 700 dollars a day, travelling, doing drugs and fucking bitches. He doesn't even know how to spell Bitcoin. This guy has it all. Another guy started with a 100 dollars and held it for almost 10 years, doing 10x on his money. A phenonemal 1000% return. This guy know everything about Bitcoin inside out, an extremely faithfull believer and hodler. This guy is a fucking loser with nothing.

zachmoe

Start taking gains to turn around and buy the ETF.

menghao_ai

One thing the index doesn't capture: it's sentiment, not a timing signal. The last sub-25 prints bottomed weeks later, not at the print. The $430M Thursday ETF outflow number matters more than the index itself. If scaling in, size for the case where the 74.7k low breaks - splitting buys into tranches beats reacting to the headline number.

icnews10

The Fear Index at 25 tells you how people feel, but not whether the selling is over. The $430 million in ETF outflows is important, but so is the wider liquidation trend. Fund redemptions and forced deleveraging are not the same thing. I'd rather see those pressures subside than treat an extreme fear reading as a buy signal.

fabtico

I don't like bitcoin at all. But for you I like it even less because you're retired and BTC is a extremely risky investment, I would recommend you some dividend ETF

mozy-rama

Congrats!! I was thinking of setting up a Roth IRA account with Fidelity to purchase FBTC. No capital gain tax & tax-free withdrawal during retirement. I already got a cold wallet for self-custody. Stragetically, I would like to reduce risk by not having all my eggs in one basket. Roth IRA setup to purchase crypto ETF seems to be the way. Fidelity is an excellent instuition. Congratulations again!! 0.1 is a milestone. Next goal target: 0.25 BTC. Good luck! Cheers!

LaminatedDenimJeans

Stocks 60% ETF 15%, Bitcoin 15%, ZCash 10%

Designer-Horse-6676

ETF azionari/ bond/ oro/ btc

No_Resolution8762

very diversified... self custody, ETF, coinbase, [river.com](http://river.com), MSTR, ASST

Charming_Bus2484

sadly when hyperinflation comes to USA, bitcoin will go rapidly to 2 billion 3 billion next day etc. like the german currency after WW1. the US government will do all on its posibilities to confiscate, they will not only make crypto illegal, but they will confiscate all of the Bitcoin from ETF´s and public companies residing in USA, just to save their asses. Bitcoin will continue to go up even further even as the government dump those to save their country, but also to people that want to flee the country on a very liquid global asset. and you will be left with 0, learning you didnt bought any bitcoin and it is actually only then when you are gonna actually need it the most. after every single thing in the black market (which will be the only real market) reprice things in satoshis.

Jogi1811

I have 6 ETFs I also purchase with my Bitcoin ETF.

Holywizy

agreed, the index tells you people are scared, not that the selling is done. a few daily closes above 75k plus the ETF bleeding stopping would say a lot more than one number

Alexander-305

Extreme Fear is a useful label for the mood, but I would not treat 25 as a buy button on its own. The index mostly lags what already happened: a sharp dump, ETF redemptions, and equity beta spilling into crypto. By the time it prints Extreme Fear, a chunk of the forced selling is already in the rear-view. That is why "buy every Extreme Fear print" has mixed follow-through across cycles. What I care about more than the number: - Whether $75k holds a few daily closes instead of just one bounce candle - Whether BTC ETF flows stop bleeding for more than a day or two - Whether leverage rebuilds into the bounce (that usually means another flush is still on the table) Sitting is a valid third option when the setup is "sentiment is washed, structure is not." The index tells you people are scared. It does not tell you the selling is done.

AutoModerator

Post is by: Zhytaleks and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1xq07rx/bitcoins_next_big_move_will_institutions_save_the/ Bitcoin's recent sell-off raises an important question: are institutional investors actually making the crypto market more stable? On November 5, U.S. spot Bitcoin ETFs recorded approximately $430.2 million in net outflows, according to ETF flow data. Source: https://farside.co.uk/btc/ This highlights something we sometimes overlook: institutional participation works both ways. **The bullish case** Long-term institutional adoption could create sustained demand for Bitcoin. If major asset managers, pension funds, and other investors gradually increase their BTC allocations, the market could benefit from a broader investor base. **The bearish case** Institutions don't just buy and hold forever. They also rebalance portfolios, manage risk, and respond to changing financial conditions. During periods of uncertainty, ETF redemptions and institutional selling can add pressure to an already weak market. Leverage makes the situation even more complicated. Liquidations can accelerate price movements in either direction. **My perspective** Institutional adoption matters, but it doesn't automatically guarantee higher prices or lower volatility. I think we need to pay attention to three things: Actual ETF inflows and outflows. Spot market demand and trading volume. Bitcoin's ability to reclaim and hold important price levels. Rather than assuming institutions will buy every dip, I'd prefer to see evidence of sustained demand. **Here's what I'm curious about:** Are institutional investors making Bitcoin stronger in the long run, or are they making BTC increasingly dependent on traditional financial markets? And during a major market correction, do you see institutions as potential buyers — or another source of selling pressure? Interested to hear both sides. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*

ghostchihuahua

Sure, because as opposed to bitcoin, ETF’s can go to zero value upon a market hickup… Did none of you read the white paper ?

Valyarian

Definitely understand where your coming from, we're in the early innings of the blockchain build out, if Brokers and institutionals truly want to experiment, they need to give all of these guys a chance to prove where they can increase efficency. I also think PYTH and Bittensor will play a big role because Pyth is a alternative to Chainlink's expensive oracle solution which is going to take premise, and Bittensor is creating the ETF for all things AI converging with On chain analystics, while your being an angel investor.

getcoinline

ETF shares vs. owning BTC directly: an ETF in a brokerage or retirement account is simple and tax-friendly in some setups, but you can't withdraw or send it. Owning the coins means you can self-custody, but you're responsible for security. Neither is wrong; just know which one you're buying.

Successful_Taro8587

You don't have any Bitcoin. You have shares in an ETF.

IInsulince

Yes he’s right. To be clear, I agree with him, I’m mocking people who don’t like being told this inconvenient truth that buying the ETF doesn’t let you actually own anything, you’re buying an IOU.

PhoenixProtocol

In what way? Unless Bitcoin will get wide scale adoption, and the average Joe can safely buy / send it to their wallet, it's just not for the average person. Yes everyone (or most people) can learn how to do it, but it's not really an out of the box experience so to speak. At least if you buy an ETF, you're still exposed, can some day in the future sell and buy an equivalent BTC, and you negate some of the major risks that we currently have this year. Let's say you told your grandmother a decade ago to buy bitcoin, bought her a ledger, and now her coins are gone. Unless she might have followed the news (nowadays either Reddit or communities), she wouldn't have known this was going on and could've moved the coins if they were still there. For now btc is just too complicated and that's fine, look how far we've come in the past decade. Most people under let's say 50-60 know at least vaguely what bitcoin is, that's a good thing. Give it another decade and see where we are then.

Gareth_loves_dogs

Rename your title to 'I have 0.10 (ETF) now.'

Gyrmeji

Don't! They don't like Bitcoin ETF

r3v3rb_1

Good point. While I’m far from an expert, and in absolutely no position to question anyone from MIT, I read this article while a little voice in my ear kept asking “how is this going to be exploited?” I’ve been a big believer in BTC for a long time, but the tech world is getting too far beyond what I’m comfortable investing into with blind trust. Scams, exchange hacks, cold wallet supply chain loss of trust. It’s all a battlefield now, and when people begin to think the ETF is the safest route than were done.

DatGiantIsopod

Tbh I used to buy into the "hard money" thing when I first got into BTC about a decade ago, but that use case has been decimated in recent years, because: 1) There is no Bitcoin development that can be used by an average person that has proven itself to have better synergy of simplicity and security than the legacy banking system. 2) All these years later there is still virtually no way to spend Bitcoin directly, meaning even if some Paraguayan held Bitcoin, they'd still have to use the legacy banking system to get it out after exchanging it for fiat. Bitcoin still has a use case as a store of value - but most people are best holding it via an ETF.

Cool-Security-4645

Well, it’s price is already depressed, and it’s still dropping more than a broad-market ETF. I don’t see where the contradiction lies

Doritos707

But then how do we avoid Bitcoin becoming irrelevant? Surely an on chain solution is a lot less "shitty" than the way those ETF companies are trying to hold us by the balls. What's the fear about if it remains in your custody?

PeaceAgitated1978

I did indeed took a loan for the same reason. Didn't had to ask anyone about it, thought.. but yeah my answer is simple.. I do what I say. Mine got placed in a TSFA totally.. because why even take the chance to have to pay taxes when there is a legal way to not pay any 🤔🤣 ETF for now, next in 3 years or around, I'll switch to real BTC. Oh and by the way, my degenerate side touch. Got 1/3 in MSTR amplified volatility.. and plan to get out earlier.. switch to BTC to finish this cycle.. MSTR also in TSFA of course.. was having load of place in it ..

Unlucky-Pop-8841

BITA, the Bitcoin income ETF from iShares and designed by BlackRock, is the way to go if you don't want to go all in. On average, 70% is uncapped Bitcoin exposure via IBIT, the spot Bitcoin ETF from BlackRock. 30% is written with a call. The current yield is around 14%. On average, you get 85% of the total return with income to allow you to comfortably wait.

PrintDoErro

What kind of stability and reliability are you talking about? The stability and reliability of Mt. Gox, FTX, Binance? Perhaps BlackRock's "paper Bitcoin" through its IBIT ETF and its operations with Coinbase? One of the major problems with the fiat system is precisely the ability granted by governments to the financial system to create money. Banks can issue financial instruments and extend loans far beyond the amount of deposits they receive, effectively creating money without corresponding backing. This isn't the only cause of inflation, but it is certainly one of them. Bitcoin was created, among other things, to overcome this problem. But if you believe that handing BTC over to the same outdated and failed financial system, allowing it to reproduce those very same practices with Bitcoin, makes any sense, that's your choice.

BrendanRodgersss

The important distinction is that buying an ETF through a regulated broker generally doesn't hand the broker a pile of money it can secretly spend on Bitcoin. The shares or fund units are held for you through custody arrangements. The much simpler incentive for all those ads is acquiring customers and earning management or transaction fees. Banks can invest their own capital separately, but that's not the same as owning your ETF holdings.

UroborosJose

Move to stocks market Buy some ETF Done

BeeCommon1798

Also mind you the time period you're talking about is when the ETF's became a thing and the market became more mature which causes it to slow down and makes the gains and losses less extreme vs when it was a pure niche project without institutional backing. 

SeaChampBig_C

Sell it all and buy into a bitcoin ETF

Alexchii

Sure. As a Finn I can’t access VT but buy a similar, diversified and accumulating world-ETF.

Alexchii

All-world ETF will have just enough of that.

Alexchii

Buy and hold. Only invest in highly risky assets what you’re ready to lose. Rest goes into all-world ETF’s.

Scared-Permit2587

BTC ETFs give me comfort. Never heard a convincing argument against benefiting from the potential future explosive growth in BTC through the ETF since they track identically vs self custody other than some imaginary boogie man is going to decide they wont honor the holdings in the future?

cubewilly711

Your reasoning makes sense. One stolen login being enough to drain an account is a real risk, and plenty of people don’t realize it until it happens. For anyone else reading with the same worry who wants to own the actual bitcoin rather than ETF shares but doesn’t want to self custody, there’s a middle option. Some custody setups split the keys across several independent institutions and require multiple layers of verification before anything moves, so one compromised password isn’t enough. Disclosure, I work at Onramp, which does this. Either way, getting off a single login was the right instinct.

read_more_comments

Blackrock doesn't decide to buy anything. Their ETF purchases or sells based on holders of the ETF buying or selling the ETF.

stockmantools

I think there is 2 ways of doing this. You either 1. Have a cold storage 2. Buy an ETF that is physically backed from an trusted institution/bank with low yearly fee. Or you have *both. I think with AI it’s just a madder of ”when” the next cyberattack will happen..*

PotentialResident759

Do not be afraid of self custody. 24 words + passphrase is fine. If u want to ease in get a Bitkey from Block. No seed phrase to remember. It’s a solid balance between self-custody & custodial. Plus it has built-in multisig with the device, your phone app & Block’s server and inheritance planning. If you are truly terrified of self-custody then move it Fidelity. I teach Bitcoin Basics classes and many of my students who are retirees buy ETF’s but don’t do that if you are young. Get it on a Bitkey then take time to figure out if u want to move to full self-custody. I would not have it on an exchange right now. The attack vector with multiple cryptos is too high like what we just saw with Binance. 🧡

AnyStatistician2535

I don't think is true. If you are talking about SIPC, it doesn't cover theft or hacks of underlying assets in an ETF. But if you are sure, can you please give a source on this?

Good_Extension_9642

If you are scared to hold pure Bitcoin then hold BTC ETF then

malacosa

Not sure if I made the right move, but 6 months ago I cashed out my coin base account, moved all of it into my TFSA (for the tax savings) and then bought ETFs. Of course, an ETF is probably not any safer than an exchange, but at least there will be legal consequences if they get hacked.

MarloChrisSnoop

Doesn’t seem that bad if it’s the same value about as Bitcoin price. I would just rebuy it or buy the ETF after I get reimbursed 🤷‍♂️

TheBestintheWest11

ETF bro

devCheckingIn

There were huge ETF outflows on Friday though. Just a question of when the underlying BTC actually gets sold.

Despaciito

Endless dump. Is this due to ETF sell orders after the hack?

Lucky-Interview-7689

I'm not asking for a guarantee. I'm saying there isn't one, which means the price depends only on buying (greater fools). Any asset can fall, but gold, silver and equities have actual nonredundant uses or cash flows that give them some anchor. Bitcoin's anchor is the next buyer. Problems with where you're taking this logically: \- You made me into a straw man. I said that I'm not calling for zero or claiming certainty. My claim is that nothing guarantees a floor. You turn that into something else that is easier to argue against. \- Shifting the burden of proof. My argument is that nothing supports a floor under Bitcoin. You imply that I'm asking for something impossible. That doesn't answer my point. It concedes my point. \- Tu quoque / false equivalence (nothing's value is guaranteed). My claim is that there is no floor. Saying other assets have no guaranteed floor either doesn't show Bitcoin has one. Other assets also have anchors, such as cash flows, industrial use. Gold and silver have physical demand. Bitcoin's anchor is belief that others will keep buying. \- Appeal to nature / ideology (a form of the "No True Scotsman" move). "That is exactly what bitcoin is against" describes what Bitcoin was designed to oppose. This says nothing about whether the price is sustainable. Intent isn't evidence of value. My point was that a floor needs a backer, and you're saying a backer is against the philosophy. \- Unsupported slippery-slope claim ("power tends to corrupt, absolute power corrupts absolutely"). This is a slogan, not a valid response in an argument. It doesn't show that a price floor is bad, and it doesn't show that Bitcoin is free of concentrated power. Large holders, exchanges, miners, ETF issuers and Tether-type issuers all have more than significant control over the market. And I don't remember if it is you specifically, but many people in this sub have argued that bitcoin can be used for payments. Only in the most limited circumstances is Bitcoin used to make payments in a way that does not use traditional financial guardrails. \- Poor analogy (you owned yourself here) You cite the silver "pump and dump" as proof that prices don't follow real demand. But that means silver can show a price disconnected from fundamentals, which actually supports my skepticism. Did I buy into the Space X IPO? Of course not, because I decided from the jump that the price was disconnected from reality. Finding something worth investing in takes work.

FileAlternative2020

As much as I support some degree of self-custody, a lot of these other comments are unnecessarily salty really. What you're doing makes sense. Even if an ETF uses Coinbase to custody btc, it's still different because of the legal relationships, insurance, etc. Good on you man. Really. More people should diversify as such so they dont 'lose it all' in a hack. Best to use a few reputable platforms, some etfs, maybe some mstr, and then whatever they are comfortable with in self custody cold storage + maybe some in a lightning wallet in case they get the chance to spend it irl.

Porcellanidae

i dont think so, my broker asked me to fill out this test/questionaire thing before purchasing Bitcoin ETP, and one of the questions was: Do you think your Bitcoin is insured when the broker or custodians goes bankrupt or loses funds: Right answer was no. So basically there is a backdoor to steal your funds already, when going for the ETF/ETP. Especially when a fork happens, they can easily give you the shitcoin and walk away with the bitcoin.

Ok_Discussion_4837

Sure, people claim the job market is broken, but let's thank OP, he provides us with employment. Coinbase guys, ETF guys, Tax guys. He is sharing his bitcoins what a king !

ahjaok

What does that solve lol? If any exchange is hacked in a big style and everyone stops trusting crypto and Bitcoin goes to 0, your ETF will also go to 0…

Romanizer

It's all about the size of the hot wallet. ETF custodian don't need a large one to maintain. I think even coinbase limits it at 2% of the assets.

truthhurtsyomama

I'm set to dump my ETF

longonbtc

No. Fidelity uses Fidelity Digital Assets, National Association. Since many people in this ѕubreddit don't realize this, I also want to point out that none of the spot bitcoin ETF's have Coinbase exchange holding custody of their ETF's bitcoin. Many of the spot bitcoin ETF's have Coinbase Custody Trust Company holding custody of their ETF's bitcoin. Coinbase Custody Trust Company provides "institutional-grade custody services specifically for digital assets" like bitcoin. Coinbase Custody Trust Company is a New York state chartered trust company, a fiduciary under New York state banking law and a "qualified custodian". A "qualified custodian" is legally authorized and regulated to safely hold digital or traditional assets on behalf of institutional investors. A "qualified custodian" is a financial institution registered broker-dealer that safeguards client assets on behalf of an investment adviser. Under SEC rules, these custodians must hold client funds and securities in a separate account. They protect investor assets by holding them securely, but they do not make investment decisions for the client. Coinbase Custody Trust Company is subject to regulatory examinations and compliance requirements. Its custody operations also undergo independent SOC 1 Type II and SOC 2 Type II examinations, as described in its institutional custody disclosures. Coinbase Custody Trust Company uses a combination of offline cold storage, geographic distribution, multiple layers of authorization, physical security, and regulatory oversight. The private keys are generated and stored offline. The private keys are not accessible through internet-connected systems. So the bitcoin cannot be transferred simply by hacking an online system. Physical and operational controls protect the devices and materials containing the cryptographic keys. The private keys are divided into multiple components and the components are protected separately. Accessing the coins requires multiple authorized personnel and controlled procedures, so no single employee has access to the complete private key material. Private key materials are stored in geographically separated secure facilities. This provides protection against physical theft, natural disasters, localized security breaches, and physical destruction of a single storage location. Coinbase Custody Trust Company maintains customer assets in segregated wallets. So BlackRock's bitcoin is not mixed with Coinbase's corporate bitcoin or with other customers' bitcoin. Coinbase Custody Trust Company cannot freely lend, pledge, or rehypothecate assets held in a client's custody account under the applicable custody agreements. Customer assets are treated as fiduciary assets rather than general corporate property. Coinbase Custody Trust Company maintains commercial crime insurance covering certain losses involving digital assets held in hot and cold storage. Coinbase Custody Trust Company has never been hacked or lost any bitcoin (yet). But neither has Coinbase exchange (yet) and Coinbase exchange has been selling bitcoin since October 2012. So Coinbase exchange has been around longer than most exchanges. Don't get me wrong, I personally would still not leave my bitcoin in Coinbase exchange. But if I owned some shares of a spot bitcoin ETF, I would currently choose to own shares of an ETF that uses Coinbase Custody Trust Company to hold their ETF's bitcoin.

longonbtc

BlackRock's iShares Bitcoin Trust ETF doesn't have Coinbase exchange holding custody of their ETF's bitcoin. They have Coinbase Custody Trust Company holding custody of their ETF's bitcoin. Coinbase Custody Trust Company provides "institutional-grade custody services specifically for digital assets" like bitcoin. Coinbase Custody Trust Company is a New York state chartered trust company, a fiduciary under New York state banking law and a "qualified custodian". A "qualified custodian" is legally authorized and regulated to safely hold digital or traditional assets on behalf of institutional investors. A "qualified custodian" is a financial institution registered broker-dealer that safeguards client assets on behalf of an investment adviser. Under SEC rules, these custodians must hold client funds and securities in a separate account. They protect investor assets by holding them securely, but they do not make investment decisions for the client. Coinbase Custody Trust Company is subject to regulatory examinations and compliance requirements. Its custody operations also undergo independent SOC 1 Type II and SOC 2 Type II examinations, as described in its institutional custody disclosures. Coinbase Custody Trust Company uses a combination of offline cold storage, geographic distribution, multiple layers of authorization, physical security, and regulatory oversight. The private keys are generated and stored offline. The private keys are not accessible through internet-connected systems. So the bitcoin cannot be transferred simply by hacking an online system. Physical and operational controls protect the devices and materials containing the cryptographic keys. The private keys are divided into multiple components and the components are protected separately. Accessing the coins requires multiple authorized personnel and controlled procedures, so no single employee has access to the complete private key material. Private key materials are stored in geographically separated secure facilities. This provides protection against physical theft, natural disasters, localized security breaches, and physical destruction of a single storage location. Coinbase Custody Trust Company maintains customer assets in segregated wallets. So BlackRock's bitcoin is not mixed with Coinbase's corporate bitcoin or with other customers' bitcoin. Coinbase Custody Trust Company cannot freely lend, pledge, or rehypothecate assets held in a client's custody account under the applicable custody agreements. Customer assets are treated as fiduciary assets rather than general corporate property. Coinbase Custody Trust Company maintains commercial crime insurance covering certain losses involving digital assets held in hot and cold storage. Coinbase Custody Trust Company has never been hacked or lost any bitcoin (yet). But neither has Coinbase exchange (yet) and Coinbase exchange has been selling bitcoin since October 2012. So Coinbase exchange has been around longer than most exchanges. Don't get me wrong, I personally would still not leave my bitcoin in Coinbase exchange. But if I owned some shares of a spot bitcoin ETF, I would currently choose to own shares of an ETF that uses Coinbase Custody Trust Company to hold their ETF's bitcoin.

Ok_Violinist9413

You can harvest it. Under current law section 1091 covers stocks and securities, and bitcoin is property, so the rule as written doesn't reach coins you hold directly. Your broker will still probably flag a wash sale on the 1099-B for the FBTC shares. The thing to know before you do this week: H.R. 10357 cleared Ways and Means 38-5 in September and extends wash sale rules to digital assets for dispositions after September 14, 2026. It isn't law yet, but that effective date is already behind us, so a harvest done now could get caught retroactively. A 31-day gap is the safe play rather than the merely cautious one. And swapping FBTC for a different spot ETF is the riskier version of this, not FBTC for actual coins. Separate thing while you're in there: FBTC is a grantor trust that sells a little bitcoin every month to pay its sponsor fee, so you've been realising small gains and losses all year without trading. Those come through on the fund's annual tax letter, not only the 1099-B.

cocacola0102

Literally dude just read Blackrock's prospectus on their BTC ETF, it's all public information. It simply doesn't work how you think it works.

cocacola0102

Wait until you hear about how blackrock stores their bitcoin... "They have your name on the account, and can reverse illegitimate transactions." If someone hacks your brokerage account, sure. If someone hacks the bitcoin that the ETF has invested in, they're no more able to 'reverse' those transactions than anyone else. And you, as per the prospectus, will take the loss in that case.

BaldBear_13

Use ETF, with an established and well known brokerage, and properly setup Two-factor Authentication (it is the default mostly), and SIPC insurance (if in the US). They have your name on the account, and can reverse illegitimate transactions. Everybody is trying to hack them all the time, without success. Even if a hack succeeds, they will likely cover losses out of their own money (like Binance just did), or SIPC will cover it.

Charnia570

Not sure why the downvotes. If he used a bank he would still have the 70k. I'm all for BTC but unfortunatley if you won't put in the effort to educate yourself fully about private key creation and security then you really are better off in an exchange, bank, or ETF. BTC is not user friendly yet.

jguest1105

The advantage is that nobody can pause your access. This week, people with coins sitting on Binance couldn't withdraw them, however safe the exchange looked on paper. IBIT's Bitcoin sits with a custodian the same way. If that custodian ever has a bad week, ETF holders can only watch it happen. Self-custody does take care at setup, I'll grant that. After that there's nothing to manage day to day, and no one you need permission from to move your own coins.

Feralz2

its not a conspiracy theory that blackrock owns the miners and they own the bitcoins of their customers while their customers own the ETF, you think black rock cares about your people coin? no they care about making returns, and when you are expendable, they will compromise the chain.

Specialist_Talk8628

To ETF buyers maybe. Bitcoin still wins :)

cocacola0102

The prospectus literally says investors eat the loss if the bitcoin is drained. Now sure they 'might' as a 'gesture of goodwill' reimburse you, but then again binance 'might' reinburse from this hack, it's not a guarantee at all. If someone got inside one of the wallets and drained a few million? I'd expect Blackrock to eat it. If the entire ETF went down? Wouldn't be too confident of getting reimbursed.

BagofBabbish

They do eat a very large loss. They lose all of the aum fees and get burned reputation-wise across all of their products. You’re stupid if you think they just say “oops, got hacked, sucks to suck” Also I’ve worked for an ETF issuer in the past. The custody isn’t as simple as “Coinbase does it”. Accessing the crypto is akin to a nuclear launch code. There are multiple parties involved and no hot wallets. It’s far safer than me or you decided we’re just going to try it ourselves and hope for the best

bryanchicken

The ETF is just a proxy for customers buying it. They aren’t buying it for themselves

10kpizza

But the payoff for hacking an ETF is much higher

BagofBabbish

Because I can buy an ETF and let a major financial institutional custody the assets instead

jguest1105

Sleeping well matters, so I get the appeal. But IBIT doesn't remove the custody question, it just hands it to BlackRock and Coinbase. This week showed what that means in practice: when the custodian has a bad week, your access is a permission, and it can be paused. The Coldcard and Ledger scares point the other way, actually. Both were about how devices get bought and set up, not about self-custody failing. Buy direct from the manufacturer, verify on setup, test with a small amount. Done carefully, there's no headline that can freeze your coins. An ETF is a fine way to get price exposure. It just isn't the same as owning Bitcoin.

PacketFox

It is crucial to understand the "Estimated" Return of Capital (ROC) can vary widely from the "Realized" ROC. Many NEOS BTCI investors learned this the hard way last tax season. The leveraged ETFs tend to have lower ROC than the non-leveraged funds. NEOS warns of this in many of their interviews. Because XBCI is a new ETF, it has not yet issued a Form 8937; this will arrive during tax time next year. However, we can look at NEOS BTCI—which has similar ROC estimates—as a cautionary example. There is a reason Form 19a-1 explicitly warns: ***"As a result, shareholders should not use the information provided in this notice for tax reporting purposes."*** ***Example:*** **BTCI ROC (June 2025):** **Estimated ROC (per Form 19a-1):** 95.00% **Realized ROC (per Form 8937):** 44.462767% - These are the actual numbers reported to the IRS. You can verify these figures yourself by reviewing the tax documents located near the bottom of the respective fund page on the NEOS website. Keep this in mind, otherwise you may end up with an unwelcome tax bill.

Walla_Walla_26

I’m going to second that this is terrible advice. Either self custody properly or buy an ETF. I don’t advocate leaving coins on an exchange unless you don’t trust yourself.

Ok_Pipe6417

Holding Bitcoin itself is becoming more ideological support than anything. The future play is ETF's and derrivatives in tax advantaged accounts for the long game. I think it's possible people burned in these exchange hacks will come around to this idea and this is where the next drops will come from as instruments are exchanged for instruments with the safety nets and buracracy digital coins are were meant to fly in the face of.

Scared-Permit2587

I have my stack in one of the large ETFs. Why is that not viable. If BTC goes into the millions so will my ETF. Leave the cold storage/hot storage to those guys with all the indemnity that confers. All the "my keys my BTC" people are more worried these days than the ETF holders.

uhohthrowawayyyyyy

You just explained why they are different? Even if the outcome is similar that doesn’t make the situations the same? How is a tank in value to the ETF due to loss of the backing bitcoin ‘the same’ as someone stealing my bitcoin directly from an exchange, or in my hard wallet? Just because everyone loses doesn’t make it the same? Nothing about your comment explains why they’re the ‘same’ thing. Your comment explains why they are not the ‘same’ thing. Your comment is essentially my response to your question of ‘how are they not the same?’ You even backtrack by the end of your comment to ‘[not] much different’. Even you know they’re different.

ljapa

Yes, but “the firm” you reference is the brokerage failing, not the ETF holding company. SIPC protects you if your brokerage goes under.

devCheckingIn

ETFs got destroyed and obliterated and annihilated and explodeded yesterday, but BTC price didn't move as much. Does that mean we see the price move when markets open Monday? I can never figure out the timing on big ETF moves vs. BTC price.

Financial-Gap-6767

Just split in multiple ETF

ThereIsNoGovernance

LMFAO, thanks for the levity. Absolutely NOTHING about the security of ECDSA and blockchain has EVER been compromised. Not ONCE! Banks, ETFs, CEX's?!?, well all bets are off about institutions that have never been audited and are black boxes to the public. This user is confused by the usual false associations. You don't need a hardware wallet, you just need to memorize your seed phrase and keep a cold wallet on a laptop that never sees the internet. Stop being a lazy fool and trusting your keys to any third party, CEX, ETF, or hardware wallets with embedded silicon that may be compromised. Yeah, crypto is 100% solid, it's just the cruft that gets wrapped around it is flaky and can and WILL be compromised. Grow a pair, chum.

No-Tumbleweed-4261

ETF shares being used to suppress price is bit of a stretch but the 6102 thing is real risk that most people dont think about