ETN

Own-Helicopter-5558

Hargreaves Landsdowne are dinosaurs. I spoke to both them and fidelity about BTC in my stocks accounts since the ETN was being made available to retail investors and both said they had no plans to make BTC available to UK investors.

I-Feel-Love79

Dear Mr ***** Thank you for your message regarding the availability of the iShares Bitcoin ETP on the platform. While our investment view remains that Bitcoin is not an asset class and we do not believe cryptocurrencies possess the characteristics necessary for inclusion in long-term investment portfolios focused on growth or income, we do recognise that some clients wish to speculate in this area. Accordingly, we are developing a service to enable appropriate clients to access crypto Exchange Traded Notes (ETNs), with trading expected to be available early next year. Please note that crypto ETNs have been classified by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) as Restricted Mass Market Investments (RMMIs), and as such, are considered high-risk and not suitable for all retail clients. Before being permitted to trade, clients will need to complete an appropriateness assessment, and in some cases, exposure to such products may be limited to 10% of a client’s total portfolio. In relation to your specific query, we are aware that several providers, including CoinShares, have launched physically backed crypto ETNs listed on the London Stock Exchange, which is a requirement set by the FCA for crypto ETN accessibility. While the iShares Bitcoin ETP is not currently available on the HL platform, we continue to assess client interest and the range of eligible ETNs available on UK exchanges. Should sufficient demand be identified, we may look to make such products available in due course. I hope this has been of assistance. If you have any further questions, please reply by secure message from your HL account. Please note that attachments we send will only be available to view on our website and not on the HL App. Kind regards

sn0rg

I thought UK normies could only access Bitcoin ETN's from a few days ago, and that BTC ETF's are still a no-go?

JamesTiberious

Too wishy washy - If I’m going to taxed CGT on actual bitcoin without any protections/at my own risk, then I expect to be protected for an ETN within an ISA.

renblaze10

Just remember that it is an ETN and you will not hold actual Bitcoin. The ETN value will be 0 overnight if the provider goes out of business. Buying an ETN is riskier than buying BTC, so it's funny that the UK govt green lights ETNs but not BTC

dgshotuk

I cant post an image, so put in to AI what the difference is between ETN and ETF and see what you think

dgshotuk

yeah you're right, its just EU getting actual crypto. We're just getting ETN, which is like an ETF but backed by thin air, no thanks

Own-Helicopter-5558

I spoke to both Fidelity and Hargreaves Lansdown, neither are offering the BTC ETN to retail investors.

uncapchad

Well at least there's nothing to confiscate as you don't hold any Bitcoin in an ETN nor will you ever get any Bitcoin from an ETN. Different tax treatment, definitely. It's not clear if you can simply transfer or if you have to start from scratch or what happens if it's still in the ISA etc. This is all still up in the air There are probably a lot of tax announcements coming next month. If you believe mainstream media who keep writing frightening articles, pensions, savings etc seem to be the main target for "filling the fiscal hole". No-one's acting in our best interests. It's all mad out there

uncapchad

well yeah you'd have to check the details of the ETN because they're all different. But yes, as an ordinary investor you're probably very low down on the totem pole when it comes to compensation. Not protected by FSCS.  "collateral can be sold to honour the debt. under no obligation to make any other assets available in the event of a shortfall" etc. So you have to keep an eye on things and understand their fee structures and probably more importantly which index/tracker they'll be using. There can be wild variations from the actual Bitcoin price. One article I read demonstrated a 5% deviation with one of the trackers

crunchyeyeball

Yup, option to hold within an ISA is the big change I've been hoping for. My ISA already includes some MSTR, GLXY, & DAGB, but a 1:1 backed ETN could be a game changer. Much as I love self-custody, the thought of the tax bill I'd be hit with if I ever needed to raise some capital is always in the back of my mind.

MarcDarcy

ETN, no thank you!

goldyluckinblokchain

I don't understand the rationale of allowing ETN's but not ETF's 🤔 at the least ETF's have to hold the crypto

DaVirus

Even if the ISA is what people will talk about, that isn't the most important thing. The most important thing is giving access to entities that outright can't hold directly, and also creating pressure from big money for better tax treatment. ETN backed 1:1 is good regardless, even if not directly for me.

Routine_End_9600

It's an ETN not an ETF, should look up the difference between them but soon you'll be able to in october, just do your research on the issuer etc, personally id go for Blackrock.

andys811

If I can buy an ETN in my ISA I will, and if ETFs are available I'll switch to that (unless the expense ratio is higher)

andys811

I would only in an ISA to take advantage of tax free gains, I'd prefer an ETF tbh but I'd definitely prefer an ETN than MSTR

Direct-Gazelle7986

It (MSTR) trades at a huge premium over the value of its Bitcoin holdings. That's one very risky and expensive way of gaining access to Bitcoin exposure. Wait for the ETN, apparently due in a week or two (8th of October?). To buy them you will have to evidence that you are an "informed investor". Do you have a pulse. They may or may not be able to be held in an ISA (not heard any confirmation on this or not).

TastyFirefighter

Same boat as you trying to decide as the date approaches. My knowledge is that of a beginner though so still struggling to understand the difference between ETF and ETN despite research.

Direct-Gazelle7986

Just because it will be an ETN does not mean it will be allowed in an ISA. I think it highly unlikely that it will be allowed, given the risk profile.

longonbtc

No, Tangem is not as secure as many other hardware wallets. Tangem is a closed source cryptocurrency wallet that is mainly geared towards altcoins. Tangem also previously leaked Tangem users' private keys in user email history, Tangem email history, and in the Tangem customer support ticket tracking system which was accessible to all Tangen employees. Thus, compromising Tangem users' private keys. Some good hardware wallet options are the [Coldcard Q](https://coldcard.com/q), [BitBox02 Bitcoin-only edition](https://bitbox.swiss/bitbox02/bitcoin-only/), [Blockstream Jade Plus](https://store.blockstream.com/products/jade-plus?variant=49701334188320), [Trezor Safe 5 Bitcoin-only](https://trezor.io/trezor-safe-5-bitcoin-only), and [Foundation Passport Core](https://foundation.xyz/passport-core/). These five hardware wallets are all good hardware wallets that have publicly available source code that can be reviewed. There are also older & cheaper versions of three of these hardware wallets but they are still open source and reliable. They are just less user friendly than the newer & costlier versions. Those older & cheaper versions are the [Coldcard Mk4](https://coldcard.com/mk4), [Trezor Safe 3](https://trezor.io/trezor-safe-3), and [Blockstream Jade Classic](https://store.blockstream.com/products/blockstream-jade-hardware-wallet). When you buy a spot bitcoin ETF, you do not own any bitcoin. A spot bitcoin ETF is legally structured as a grantor trust that holds actual bitcoin on behalf of the shareholders and each share represents direct beneficial ownership in the underlying bitcoin. When you own shares of a bitcoin ETF, you can benefit from bitcoin's increasing value but you don't actually own any bitcoin. You own shares of a spot bitcoin ETF that represent direct beneficial ownership in the underlying bitcoin that the ETF holds. You can send some bitcoin to someone else. You can't send shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN to someone else. You can use bitcoin to purchase something. You can't purchase anything with shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN. The government cannot seize your bitcoin as long as you securely store your private keys. Your bitcoin ETF/ETN shares can be seized by the government. If you buy bitcoin directly from someone else (peer-to-peer), then you own that bitcoin without the government knowing that you own it. You cannot own shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN without the government knowing that you own it.

normnormno

Mate, please look into what an ETN is before you consider the advice in that other sub about buying it. I've noticed everyone seems to call it an ETP, which is weird to me because it's an ETN and there's a massive difference between and ETF and and ETN. Both are ETPs but ETN are terribly risky. They're a bank note, not backed by bitcoin and offers no insurance if the bank drops the ball. Alot of people are going to be hurt by this. Until they bring a real bitcoin solution for pensions mstr is the best we have. Read into ETNs and swerve. As for allocation? My SIPP is 50% MSTR. You say you're buying bitcoin every month anyway, some potentially good news...I was putting 500 a month into BTC for about 4 years and then the next wave up basically retired me. Importantly you don't freeze in a bear market, you keep dca. You're a fellow Brit and I was 29 when I started so I feel like I'm talking to younger me. Have big conviction. Have even more conviction when people are laughing at you.

uncapchad

well ETNs which are different to ETFs. They are not selling you Bitcoin at all, they're tracking the price, buying and selling BTC based on ETN entries and exits. You never get any Bitcoin, just the currency value when you redeem your note. When investors buy shares in the ETN, BlackRock uses the proceeds to purchase Bitcoin from the market, and when investors sell their shares, the fund may sell Bitcoin to meet redemption requests. The value of the ETN moves with Bitcoin's price. There will also be fees to consider. The underlying Bitcoin is held by a custodian, Coinbase Custody, which manages the private keys and holds the assets on behalf of the fund. Your risk is if Blackrock goes bankrupt and can't pay you. ETNs are not FSCS protected so you only have a claim against the issuer and no rights over the Bitcoin being held by Coinbase.

infernal_celery

Dude, you are diving way too far into the wrong details. A. I’m talking about background knowledge about financial services regulation, not Bitcoin. You’re having a hard time because you’ve basically jumped into the deep end of a technical legal/finance topic,  not a pure Bitcoin topic, with questions about the FCA and ETNs. It’s like starting a conversation on science with a question about wave-particle duality: the question suggests you’re a long way into research, so the answers you were given assumed several years of baseline learning. We’re all assuming you would know how public investment markets, like the London Stock Exchange or NYSE, eventually deal through intermediaries to retail investors. That’s not normally an assumption we would make, but your question started in Chapter 20 of the textbook.  B. You are almost certainly a “retail” buyer. This means you don’t have to register with the FCA at all. That was my first point. The company that sells to you might have to, and the FCA punishes them if they don’t. You are fine. C. There is no need for you to buy an ETN. There may be an advantage in the future to you buying one, but (a) they are only just allowed to be sold to you, so you may not actually be able to find one to buy yet, and (b) you would have a decent working knowledge of buying equities (“stocks”) before you wanted to do this. It’s an investment portfolio strategy question, not a Bitcoin question.  D. I believe Strike is able to sell you Bitcoin in the UK. I am in the Channel Islands and I use it. They will ask for your ID and proof of address, like a bank would when you join them as a new customer. Strike sells Bitcoin to you and also has a custodial wallet, meaning that you can leave your Bitcoin with them if you wish, or you can create your own Bitcoin wallet and send the Bitcoin you buy to it from Strike. Strike do not sell ETCs. They are not that kind of business.

infernal_celery

There’s a lot of confused ideas in your post: 1. The Financial Conduct Authority regulates business, not retail investors. It is in theory there to make sure these businesses meet minimum standards and don’t screw their customers over. Sometimes they are successful in this goal. 2. An ETN is an Exchange Traded Note. This is a securitised product purportedly backed by or whose value is tied to an asset, in this case crypto. To buy these, you need an account provided by an FCA regulated provider. The FCA has until now banned UK providers from letting UK customers buy crypto ETNs. This is important for things like tax-advantaged pensions and ISA accounts, but if you just want to buy Bitcoin directly then you probably wouldn’t buy one. Most people who own Bitcoin in the UK would just buy it and not buy an ETN, but if you have an ISA for tax efficiency you may be able to buy Bitcoin ETNs with it in future. You won’t be part of the peer-to-peer money system with a ETN, but you will at least get “money go up” with protection from taxes. 3. A business that isn’t regulated in the UK can sell you Bitcoin, but if it isn’t in some way registered or regulated by the FCA it can’t approach you - say, with an advert. You must approach them. Like that girl you fancied in school, an unregulated/ unregistered exchange can’t make the first move to an UK customer. This actually gets technical at a legal level so some exchanges will just tell you they aren’t going to sell to you if they are not FCA registered.  4. Many exchanges are now registered or regulated in the UK, and they get that registration or licence from the FCA. In theory you as a retail buyer should be more comfortable with exchanges that the FCA registers. In practice, if you take self custody straight after buying like a good hodler, there isn’t much difference as long as the exchange has a good reputation. 5. u/Born-Ad4452 assumed you were more informed about how financial services work, that is why they wrote what they did. They are completely correct, they just didn’t realise that you needed a lot more background knowledge. Be kind.

crunchyeyeball

Sadly the ETFs aren't (yet) available through a tax-exempt wrapper (ISA) in the UK. ET**N**s were recently approved though and may become available from next month: https://www.fca.org.uk/news/press-releases/fca-opens-retail-access-crypto-etns https://moneyweek.com/investments/bitcoin-crypto/crypto-etns-approved-for-uk-retail-investors I'd much prefer the actual ETFs as a tax-exempt option, but I guess an ETN is the closest we'll get for now, though we do also have the likes of MSTR & similar which can be held in an ISA. In any case, most of my holdings will have to stay in self-custody, and I'll have to worry about tax if/when the time comes, much as it pains me.

longonbtc

When you buy a spot bitcoin ETF, you do not own any bitcoin. A spot bitcoin ETF is legally structured as a grantor trust that holds actual bitcoin on behalf of the shareholders and each share represents direct beneficial ownership in the underlying bitcoin. When you own shares of a bitcoin ETF, you can benefit from bitcoin's increasing value but you don't actually own any bitcoin. You own shares of a spot bitcoin ETF that represent direct beneficial ownership in the underlying bitcoin that the ETF holds. You can send some bitcoin to someone else. You can't send shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN to someone else. You can use bitcoin to purchase something. You can't purchase anything with shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN. The government cannot seize your bitcoin as long as you securely store your private keys. Your bitcoin ETF/ETN shares can be seized by the government. If you buy bitcoin directly from someone else (peer-to-peer), then you own that bitcoin without the government knowing that you own it. You cannot own shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN without the government knowing that you own it.

longonbtc

When you buy a spot bitcoin ETF, you do not own any bitcoin. The bitcoin ETF owns bitcoin and you own shares of the bitcoin ETF. When you own shares of a bitcoin ETF, you can benefit from bitcoin's increasing value but you don't actually own any bitcoin. You can send some bitcoin to someone else. You can't send shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN to someone else. You can use bitcoin to purchase something. You can't purchase anything with shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN. The government cannot seize your bitcoin as long as you securely store your private keys. Your bitcoin ETF/ETN shares can be seized by the government. If you buy bitcoin directly from someone else (peer-to-peer), then you own that bitcoin without the government knowing that you own it. You cannot own shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN without the government knowing that you own it.

docherino

Not an ETF. Its an ETN which is basically paper bitcoin. Id stick with MSTR as their shares are backed by real BTC

MikeysOnTheMoon

There’s a video on YouTube where a guy explains it but it was September 2017 he publicly stated he’d fire anyone of his traders if he found out they were involved in buying bitcoin. The video states that that same weekend Jp Morgan was the biggest buyer of some bitcoin ETF/ETN whatever they call it over there and they wouldn’t have to disclose it because of American law. Can’t find the proof of the purchase that weekend, but more recently he said he’d close down crypto if he were the government, there’s countless quotes of him calling it garbage or a fraud. Doubt he just changed his mind one day.

uncapchad

These regulators must pull their bloody fingers out. Digital moves faster than 5 bloody years of "consulting". And for all that effort we have (*drumroll*) warning banners, geo-blocking and a heap of Forbidding. Oh and an ETN. One. You'll never catch up. Across the pond they've already had the regulatory fights, a heap of Bitcoin instruments have been released. Some of them accessible in people's retirement funding. They are allowed to see adverts and participate in the market. In UK to educate people about Bitcoin, you'd have to make it Top Secret/Classified for the information to get out /s

abinonloopin

Just check once the glossary of the composition of the ETN. In most cases it’s Vaneck buying BTC on behalf of their investors (in this case you). They’ll charge a commission on your purchase so you’ll receive a little lesser than the actual market value. Same for when you are selling as well. Since you are a beginner I’d recommend stick to this before going ahead for any self custody for crypto first exchanges like coinbase

longonbtc

When you buy a spot bitcoin ETF, you do not own any bitcoin. The bitcoin ETF owns bitcoin and you own shares of the bitcoin ETF. When you own shares of a bitcoin ETF, you can benefit from bitcoin's increasing value but you don't actually own any bitcoin. But VanEck Vectors Bitcoin ETN (ticker VBTC) is not even a spot bitcoin ETF. It's an unsecured debt security issued by VanEck and when you buy it, you are buying a promise by VanEck to pay you the value of bitcoin at maturity or upon redemption. The VanEck Vectors Bitcoin ETN (ticker VBTC) is backed by bitcoin holdings but it is legally structured as a debt note, unlike spot bitcoin ETFs like VanEck Bitcoin Trust (ticker HODL), Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund (ticker FBTC), iShares Bitcoin Trust (ticker IBIT), Bitwise Bitcoin ETF (ticker BITB), Valkyrie Bitcoin Fund (BRRR), et cetera which are legally structured as a grantor trust that holds actual bitcoin on behalf of the shareholders and each share represents direct beneficial ownership in the underlying bitcoin. You can send some bitcoin to someone else. You can't send shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN to someone else. You can use bitcoin to purchase something. You can't purchase anything with shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN. The government cannot seize your bitcoin as long as you securely store your private keys. Your bitcoin ETF/ETN shares can be seized by the government. If you buy bitcoin directly from someone else (peer-to-peer), then you own that bitcoin without the government knowing about it. You cannot own shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN without the government knowing about it.

Financial_Design_801

24/7/365 accessibility & privacy with self custody ETN is like holding any other commodity etf/etn, some fees some risk but performance should be equal & could get loans against shares easier

nomoney110

ETN at cryptopia

Majezan

So why would one buy it over gold ETN?

Possible-Local-9357

Let them sell it - we’ll buy it, what we need is BTC ETF/ETC/ETN or whatever they call it

uncapchad

ETFs and ETNs are not available for trading by UK retail. You have to go through a broker. There is a BTC ETN in the UK but again, it is only accessible to brokers.

Past-Ride-7034

Currently stacking into a hot wallet but should really upgrade to a hardware wallet. Hoping tax doesn't prove too punitive when it comes time to "gift" the sats. May well switch in part or in full to a crypto ETN like IBIT if the UK makes them available for normals.

Yo-Son

ETN

Fun-Sundae4060

False, this is not an ETN. And this is just 200k for a BTC trade this cycle lol. I know about leverage decay

silkystingrays

Are you using ETN’s ?

Intrepid_Upstairs243

Does anyone remember electroneum (ETN)?

Holicron78

The OP is obviously from Europe and we don't have the same prices as US * *VanEck Bitcoin ETN* (Xetra) has **1.00% fee** * *Fidelity Physical Bitcoin ETP* (Xetra) has **0.35% fee** * There is no GBTC in Europe The only one that challenged BlackRock after their launch was *WisdomTree Physical Bitcoin* (Xetra) with similar **0.15% fee** until the end of year

Analog_AI

Mate, my reading is that not just Britain but every European country plus Japan and South Korea (in fact all g20 countries and even beyond) will be forced to follow suite. If they don't open some form of ETP/ETN/ETF for Bitcoin, they will see a large capital outflows their financial sector will become less efficient than that of countries that did. Competition and capital flight are great motivators. And there is FOMO at the national level too, not just among individuals.

Bigbangmk2

Electroneum ETN

Savo83

Well they are wrong. If you go to fund it you’ll probably get knocked back as not FCA approved. What you could do is just buy shares via MSTR as a workaround. ETN’s are the only other option but that excludes retail so you won’t be able to invest unless you’re a professional.

SusanForeman

SPYU is not an ETF, it's an ETN. You should maybe get a professional to help you before you lose your finances.

uncapchad

No other way to add BTC exposure to retirement etc. Retail are Forbidden access to ETFs, can't even trade the lone ETN. No way to add native BTC to retirement funding. All we can do is add MSTR to personal pensions and continue on our DCA journey where CGT threshold has been horribly slashed. Thou shalt not escape the fiat system.

Tasty-Window

Maybe it used to be an ETN or something - it was tradable, just not through my 401k

ztkraf01

No BAT, ETN, or VEN? Miss those days

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Asset management firm VanEck has launched a new exchange-traded note (ETN) based on the layer-1 blockchain Sui (SUI) for European markets. This ETN allows investors to engage with SUI's development without directly holding the token. Trading on Euronext Amsterdam and Paris, the ETN aims to capitalize on Sui's low transaction costs and scalability, offering a bridge between Web2 and Web3. The launch coincided with SUI reaching an all-time high of $3.44, highlighting its growing market interest. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

PolloWasabi

You didn’t search well: VANECK VECTORS BITCOIN ETN - DE000A28M8D0

consumZ

Wisdomtree already have a fund (ETN) with the 10 biggest coins.

Magic-Dragon-Society

Exactly ETN's are approved for our institutions over here, if the USA uses its BTC stack as a strategic reserve, the UK will follow with it's stack

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; VanEck has launched staking for its Solana exchange-traded note (ETN) in Europe, allowing investors to earn rewards without managing the staking process. The ETN, with $73 million in assets under management, integrates staking rewards into its daily net asset value (NAV). Built on Solana's Delegated-Proof-of-Stake system, this feature enhances liquidity and value. VanEck manages the staking exposure to ensure daily liquidity, making it more accessible for investors. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; VanEck has introduced staking rewards for its Solana exchange-traded note (ETN) in Europe, listed on the Euronext Amsterdam stock exchange. This $74 million product will now offer Solana staking rewards reinvested daily, providing passive income for investors. A 25% fee will be charged on these rewards. This move follows a similar change for VanEck's Ethereum ETN. In the U.S., such staking rewards for crypto ETFs are not yet approved by the SEC. Solana products have attracted significant inflows, highlighting its growing popularity. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

uncapchad

Only registered brokers may have access to BTC ETF/ETN in the UK. Too dangerous for mere mortals

uncapchad

The ETFs are not traded in the UK. There is an ETN but that is not for mere mortals either. You can buy into ETF through a broker who is licensed to trade on NYSE but for non-professionals, it is Forbidden.

uncapchad

you still have to go through a broker service which can trade on NYSE. Bitcoin ETFs cannot be traded in the UK. Only the 1 approved ETN.

bubbathespaz

The UK is a fucking cesspit when it comes to BTC and crypto in general, we have what is called ETN's currently, however they are only available to the rich. This will be the case until the fat fucking morons in power have filled their bags then they will allow the peasants to buy later to blow up their bags. Uk is fucked and I will be getting out as soon as I can....

TheRealGaycob

The clients money is what they holding. Anyone buying an ETN or ETF for bitcoin is a retard.

bluraysucks1

OPEC-RTN will have their meeting which determines the ETN’s utility in the RF sector which if it has a good turnout will determine investors willingness to contribute. TLDR : gonna moon!

Yorkie2016

Oh yeah I know. But I was comparing this ETN to the synthetic offering from Revolut.

the_lone_unlearned

What does an ETN even represent if they don't have to hold the asset?? What are they holding then? Nothing?

Born-Ad4452

What indeed is an ETN ?

sharanElNino

WTF is this ETN nonsense?

uncapchad

applicants must hold the underlying asset, unlike the typical ETN issuer expectation.

uncapchad

The [admission guidance](https://docs.londonstockexchange.com/sites/default/files/documents/crypto_etn_admission_factsheet.pdf) seems stricter than usual for an ETN, demanding that applicants hold the underlying asset, unlike the typical ETN issuer expectation.

MachaMacMorrigan

It is an ETN - an exchange traded note - is only for institutional buyers, and because it's a *note*, does not have to be backed 1:1 with real BTC. It is an IOU backed by the full faith and credit of the issuing company.

daemonpenguin

There is no London ETF. There is an upcoming London ETN. Not the same thing. The latter is not required to hold the underlying asset. They _may_ hold Bitcoin to avoid incurring cists, but it is not a requirement.

rtreffer

ETF(US) or ETP/ETN(EU). You want an 18 year safeguard. That will cost you less than 10% over these years. Yes, this has all the downsides of a fund managing the asset. But there is a good chance it will be around when you aren't, and all questions around inheritance are solved.

octplex

In UK it's an ETN (not ETF) and available only to investment firms, credit institutions, pensions funds and insurance companies

NoJob1123

The issuer of an ETN would go out and hedge their exposure using futures or spot bitcoin… otherwise they would essentially be short bitcoin and any financial institution offering these products wouldn’t want exorbitant exposure so they will hedge it.. that’s the pegging process you are referring to.

Life-Duty-965

Then it might not be able to pay out. It is a riskier product on an already risky investment. Whilst I might consider an ETF if one comes to the UK, I won't be going near an ETN. Of course this is a risk with bitcoin too. Where does the liquidity come from if the buying community of today isn't replaced? Not just replaced, but grown. In 20 years or so the current community will overwhelming switch over our monthly buys to monthly sells. If the price doesn't hold, buyers will drop away quickly when they see how well our retirement is going. On the other hand, if the buyers are there, they'll see out success and our futures are secured. It is a risk though. Easily mitigated with some investment diversity. Just not an ETN lol

daemonpenguin

It is likely the issuer will buy the asset to cover their debts/layout. Otherwise they would be in tough shape if Bitcoin's price shoots up. However, the ETN itself doesn't hold Bitcoin, it isn't technically backed by anything. I suspect this will end up working, in practise, like an ETF of an ETF.

messisleftbuttcheek

How does that work? If I buy $100 worth of this ETN and bitcoin's price 5x, does that mean my holdings 5x? Where doea the money come from if the operator isn't holding any Bitcoin?

Outrageous_Word_999

It is an ETN, which means they won't buy any bitcoin, just absorb people's capital and peg based on the asset's price, which they won't directly affect in a positive way, since they are not going to buy bitcoin. Instead, they're removing capital that could directly go into bitcoin and into holding bitcoin. ETN's are a scourge.

doinkdoink786

What happened to Morgan Stanley Bitcoin etf? There’s also uk offering ETN on May 28th

riplin

UK ETN's don't have any bitcoin backing them. They're irrelevant.

Financial_Design_801

UK ETN's (May), Hong Kong ETFs, Australia Spot ETFs, US options on Bitcoin spot ETFs (Sept?) First inning still

Real_Crab_7396

I use a normal investment broker to buy bitcoin ETF, in Europe (on my broker) the best one is Wisdomtree bitcoin ETN (WBIT). I haven't bought/owned real bitcoin, but the ETF's are easy for me and give me less taxes in my country.

5tu

Yes, that’s all perfectly fine in UK (although they have only allowed the unsecured ETN and not the more ETF which requires the broker to own the asset) The problem with the white paper is some guy claimed he invented bitcoin and threatened legal action to those in the UK who published the whitepaper. The UK high court has now confirmed he is not the inventor and therefore has no claim over that whitepaper so should be free and open source to all again.

Real_Crab_7396

I use the wisdomtree bitcoin ETN WBIT, I don't think there's a buying limit.

heinzmoleman

They're doing an ETN. The difference here is that those funds won't actually own any Bitcoin. It's an unsecured debt similar to a bond. It won't do anything for BTC price action.

CryptoBelalang

Blackrock, Fidelity, Microstrstegy, HK ETF, UK ETN, Korea ETF... think about iy..

Long_Measurement3999

Yeah we also dont talk about the fact that US ETF’s don’t have options yet. UK ETN’s, Hong Kong ETFs, Australia Spot ETFs, US options on Bitcoin spot ETFs

doinkdoink786

In the ETN like etf? Do they buy spot BTC?

5tu

UK has not issued an ETF, it issued an ETN... essentially the ETN is "an unsecured bond" i.e. a legalised form of worthless notes that carry's the name but is not actually backed by bitcoin. Just wanting to clarify because I'm still surprised an ETN was allowed over an ETF.

uncapchad

yep I know but as this article was about a Deutsche Bank whose main arena of operation is Europe, it is not surprising that their survey yielded those results. You will note in my comment that I specifically said Europe Within the EU you cannot directly buy crypto ETFS because standard Ucits structure adopted by mass-market European ETFs cannot be used to hold cryptocurrencies. It's similar in the UK, retail cannot buy into any crypto ETFS. Best they can come up with is an ETN rumoured to be coming this summer

ammo_john

I believe you have an ETN or ETP for bitcoin as well in Scandinavia? MSTR sounds quite risky for his retirement checks. Definitely don't keep it on exchanges or Conbase.

Revolutionary-Ebb-26

Yeah thats what he's saying. "wait til you can buy the UK ETN". The UK version of the ETF will be an "ETN", or Exchange Traded Note. This is a different legal structure that means the fund itself will not be holding the underlying asset but instead be holding debt obligations with another entity that holds the underlying asset as collateral. I'm not well versed in these things so I don't know the implications but it sounds a bit too "paper Bitcoin" for me. I'm sure it will drive more demand in the direction of Bitcoin but if I was in the UK I would still try to get my hands on actual Bitcoin and self custody it.

whoeva11

From what I read the UK ETF is not an ETF. It is to be an ETN which means they do NOT have to hold the underlying asset. Utter nonsense and another hypocritical own goal of the UK govt whilst claiming they want the UK to be an international crypto hub

daemonpenguin

I think it will blow up, but not because of the halving. I think the new ETF and ETN regulations in Hong Kong and London, respectively, will be a bigger boost to Bitcoin's price and adoption than the halving.

MaMu_1701

„Here in Germany you can buy BTC from German banks, hold it legally and sell it legally.“ Really? Which bank? I’m aware of ETF‘s (ETN‘s) but BTC itself? (also German btw)…

JeopardyQBot

Yeah I dunno about this. "Still around" in the sense they didn't go way the way of BitConnect, but there are so many 2017 projects that are essentially dead and treading water and are only purchased by bag holders or people who left and came back years later. When was the last time you heard someone talk about Verge? or DASH, NEM, PPT, OMG, NEO, LSK, STRAT, MONA, KMD, SALT, EMC2, ETN.. etc etc those were all top 500 coins at the peak of the bull in december 2017

gosumofo

Last cycle in 2021, the drop still happened mainly to crypto degens. But this time, it’s the World that’s going to get into it through these ETF’s, ETN’s, etc. Most people in stocks will sell the fuck out of a stock dips more than 30-40% in a day or a week. They’re just not used to the level of volatility. They can’t risk losing that much when they’re so old and basically retired.

reddit4485

This is actually bad because you're just betting on the price of bitcoin but it doesn't actually buy any. Like bitcoin futures, this is bad for bitcoin/ethereum because it allows investment in both without effecting supply. https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0213/etf-or-etn-whats-the-difference.aspx An ETN also tracks an index, and the returns it pays out are based on the performance of that index. Like an ETF, an ETN can be bought or sold on an exchange. However, the ETN does not own the underlying assets. An ETN is an investment in debt, similar to a bond. It's an unsecured debt note issued by a bank.

M0neyMaker21

Dont know whats an ETPs but its actually a ETN. anyway bullish one way or another.

ResponsibilitySea327

It is paper BTC, but it is likely the exchange will require providers to hold BTC equivalents to the value of the ETN. Most likely BTC itself and not derivatives. Need to see the actual listings.