ETN

docherino

Not an ETF. Its an ETN which is basically paper bitcoin. Id stick with MSTR as their shares are backed by real BTC

MikeysOnTheMoon

There’s a video on YouTube where a guy explains it but it was September 2017 he publicly stated he’d fire anyone of his traders if he found out they were involved in buying bitcoin. The video states that that same weekend Jp Morgan was the biggest buyer of some bitcoin ETF/ETN whatever they call it over there and they wouldn’t have to disclose it because of American law. Can’t find the proof of the purchase that weekend, but more recently he said he’d close down crypto if he were the government, there’s countless quotes of him calling it garbage or a fraud. Doubt he just changed his mind one day.

uncapchad

These regulators must pull their bloody fingers out. Digital moves faster than 5 bloody years of "consulting". And for all that effort we have (*drumroll*) warning banners, geo-blocking and a heap of Forbidding. Oh and an ETN. One. You'll never catch up. Across the pond they've already had the regulatory fights, a heap of Bitcoin instruments have been released. Some of them accessible in people's retirement funding. They are allowed to see adverts and participate in the market. In UK to educate people about Bitcoin, you'd have to make it Top Secret/Classified for the information to get out /s

abinonloopin

Just check once the glossary of the composition of the ETN. In most cases it’s Vaneck buying BTC on behalf of their investors (in this case you). They’ll charge a commission on your purchase so you’ll receive a little lesser than the actual market value. Same for when you are selling as well. Since you are a beginner I’d recommend stick to this before going ahead for any self custody for crypto first exchanges like coinbase

longonbtc

When you buy a spot bitcoin ETF, you do not own any bitcoin. The bitcoin ETF owns bitcoin and you own shares of the bitcoin ETF. When you own shares of a bitcoin ETF, you can benefit from bitcoin's increasing value but you don't actually own any bitcoin. But VanEck Vectors Bitcoin ETN (ticker VBTC) is not even a spot bitcoin ETF. It's an unsecured debt security issued by VanEck and when you buy it, you are buying a promise by VanEck to pay you the value of bitcoin at maturity or upon redemption. The VanEck Vectors Bitcoin ETN (ticker VBTC) is backed by bitcoin holdings but it is legally structured as a debt note, unlike spot bitcoin ETFs like VanEck Bitcoin Trust (ticker HODL), Fidelity Wise Origin Bitcoin Fund (ticker FBTC), iShares Bitcoin Trust (ticker IBIT), Bitwise Bitcoin ETF (ticker BITB), Valkyrie Bitcoin Fund (BRRR), et cetera which are legally structured as a grantor trust that holds actual bitcoin on behalf of the shareholders and each share represents direct beneficial ownership in the underlying bitcoin. You can send some bitcoin to someone else. You can't send shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN to someone else. You can use bitcoin to purchase something. You can't purchase anything with shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN. The government cannot seize your bitcoin as long as you securely store your private keys. Your bitcoin ETF/ETN shares can be seized by the government. If you buy bitcoin directly from someone else (peer-to-peer), then you own that bitcoin without the government knowing about it. You cannot own shares of a bitcoin ETF/ETN without the government knowing about it.

Financial_Design_801

24/7/365 accessibility & privacy with self custody ETN is like holding any other commodity etf/etn, some fees some risk but performance should be equal & could get loans against shares easier

nomoney110

ETN at cryptopia

Majezan

So why would one buy it over gold ETN?

Possible-Local-9357

Let them sell it - we’ll buy it, what we need is BTC ETF/ETC/ETN or whatever they call it

uncapchad

ETFs and ETNs are not available for trading by UK retail. You have to go through a broker. There is a BTC ETN in the UK but again, it is only accessible to brokers.

Past-Ride-7034

Currently stacking into a hot wallet but should really upgrade to a hardware wallet. Hoping tax doesn't prove too punitive when it comes time to "gift" the sats. May well switch in part or in full to a crypto ETN like IBIT if the UK makes them available for normals.

Yo-Son

ETN

Fun-Sundae4060

False, this is not an ETN. And this is just 200k for a BTC trade this cycle lol. I know about leverage decay

silkystingrays

Are you using ETN’s ?

Intrepid_Upstairs243

Does anyone remember electroneum (ETN)?

Holicron78

The OP is obviously from Europe and we don't have the same prices as US * *VanEck Bitcoin ETN* (Xetra) has **1.00% fee** * *Fidelity Physical Bitcoin ETP* (Xetra) has **0.35% fee** * There is no GBTC in Europe The only one that challenged BlackRock after their launch was *WisdomTree Physical Bitcoin* (Xetra) with similar **0.15% fee** until the end of year

Analog_AI

Mate, my reading is that not just Britain but every European country plus Japan and South Korea (in fact all g20 countries and even beyond) will be forced to follow suite. If they don't open some form of ETP/ETN/ETF for Bitcoin, they will see a large capital outflows their financial sector will become less efficient than that of countries that did. Competition and capital flight are great motivators. And there is FOMO at the national level too, not just among individuals.

Bigbangmk2

Electroneum ETN

Savo83

Well they are wrong. If you go to fund it you’ll probably get knocked back as not FCA approved. What you could do is just buy shares via MSTR as a workaround. ETN’s are the only other option but that excludes retail so you won’t be able to invest unless you’re a professional.

SusanForeman

SPYU is not an ETF, it's an ETN. You should maybe get a professional to help you before you lose your finances.

uncapchad

No other way to add BTC exposure to retirement etc. Retail are Forbidden access to ETFs, can't even trade the lone ETN. No way to add native BTC to retirement funding. All we can do is add MSTR to personal pensions and continue on our DCA journey where CGT threshold has been horribly slashed. Thou shalt not escape the fiat system.

Tasty-Window

Maybe it used to be an ETN or something - it was tradable, just not through my 401k

ztkraf01

No BAT, ETN, or VEN? Miss those days

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Asset management firm VanEck has launched a new exchange-traded note (ETN) based on the layer-1 blockchain Sui (SUI) for European markets. This ETN allows investors to engage with SUI's development without directly holding the token. Trading on Euronext Amsterdam and Paris, the ETN aims to capitalize on Sui's low transaction costs and scalability, offering a bridge between Web2 and Web3. The launch coincided with SUI reaching an all-time high of $3.44, highlighting its growing market interest. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

PolloWasabi

You didn’t search well: VANECK VECTORS BITCOIN ETN - DE000A28M8D0

consumZ

Wisdomtree already have a fund (ETN) with the 10 biggest coins.

Magic-Dragon-Society

Exactly ETN's are approved for our institutions over here, if the USA uses its BTC stack as a strategic reserve, the UK will follow with it's stack

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; VanEck has launched staking for its Solana exchange-traded note (ETN) in Europe, allowing investors to earn rewards without managing the staking process. The ETN, with $73 million in assets under management, integrates staking rewards into its daily net asset value (NAV). Built on Solana's Delegated-Proof-of-Stake system, this feature enhances liquidity and value. VanEck manages the staking exposure to ensure daily liquidity, making it more accessible for investors. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; VanEck has introduced staking rewards for its Solana exchange-traded note (ETN) in Europe, listed on the Euronext Amsterdam stock exchange. This $74 million product will now offer Solana staking rewards reinvested daily, providing passive income for investors. A 25% fee will be charged on these rewards. This move follows a similar change for VanEck's Ethereum ETN. In the U.S., such staking rewards for crypto ETFs are not yet approved by the SEC. Solana products have attracted significant inflows, highlighting its growing popularity. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

uncapchad

Only registered brokers may have access to BTC ETF/ETN in the UK. Too dangerous for mere mortals

uncapchad

The ETFs are not traded in the UK. There is an ETN but that is not for mere mortals either. You can buy into ETF through a broker who is licensed to trade on NYSE but for non-professionals, it is Forbidden.

uncapchad

you still have to go through a broker service which can trade on NYSE. Bitcoin ETFs cannot be traded in the UK. Only the 1 approved ETN.

bubbathespaz

The UK is a fucking cesspit when it comes to BTC and crypto in general, we have what is called ETN's currently, however they are only available to the rich. This will be the case until the fat fucking morons in power have filled their bags then they will allow the peasants to buy later to blow up their bags. Uk is fucked and I will be getting out as soon as I can....

TheRealGaycob

The clients money is what they holding. Anyone buying an ETN or ETF for bitcoin is a retard.

bluraysucks1

OPEC-RTN will have their meeting which determines the ETN’s utility in the RF sector which if it has a good turnout will determine investors willingness to contribute. TLDR : gonna moon!

Yorkie2016

Oh yeah I know. But I was comparing this ETN to the synthetic offering from Revolut.

the_lone_unlearned

What does an ETN even represent if they don't have to hold the asset?? What are they holding then? Nothing?

Born-Ad4452

What indeed is an ETN ?

sharanElNino

WTF is this ETN nonsense?

uncapchad

applicants must hold the underlying asset, unlike the typical ETN issuer expectation.

uncapchad

The [admission guidance](https://docs.londonstockexchange.com/sites/default/files/documents/crypto_etn_admission_factsheet.pdf) seems stricter than usual for an ETN, demanding that applicants hold the underlying asset, unlike the typical ETN issuer expectation.

MachaMacMorrigan

It is an ETN - an exchange traded note - is only for institutional buyers, and because it's a *note*, does not have to be backed 1:1 with real BTC. It is an IOU backed by the full faith and credit of the issuing company.

daemonpenguin

There is no London ETF. There is an upcoming London ETN. Not the same thing. The latter is not required to hold the underlying asset. They _may_ hold Bitcoin to avoid incurring cists, but it is not a requirement.

rtreffer

ETF(US) or ETP/ETN(EU). You want an 18 year safeguard. That will cost you less than 10% over these years. Yes, this has all the downsides of a fund managing the asset. But there is a good chance it will be around when you aren't, and all questions around inheritance are solved.

octplex

In UK it's an ETN (not ETF) and available only to investment firms, credit institutions, pensions funds and insurance companies

NoJob1123

The issuer of an ETN would go out and hedge their exposure using futures or spot bitcoin… otherwise they would essentially be short bitcoin and any financial institution offering these products wouldn’t want exorbitant exposure so they will hedge it.. that’s the pegging process you are referring to.

Life-Duty-965

Then it might not be able to pay out. It is a riskier product on an already risky investment. Whilst I might consider an ETF if one comes to the UK, I won't be going near an ETN. Of course this is a risk with bitcoin too. Where does the liquidity come from if the buying community of today isn't replaced? Not just replaced, but grown. In 20 years or so the current community will overwhelming switch over our monthly buys to monthly sells. If the price doesn't hold, buyers will drop away quickly when they see how well our retirement is going. On the other hand, if the buyers are there, they'll see out success and our futures are secured. It is a risk though. Easily mitigated with some investment diversity. Just not an ETN lol

daemonpenguin

It is likely the issuer will buy the asset to cover their debts/layout. Otherwise they would be in tough shape if Bitcoin's price shoots up. However, the ETN itself doesn't hold Bitcoin, it isn't technically backed by anything. I suspect this will end up working, in practise, like an ETF of an ETF.

messisleftbuttcheek

How does that work? If I buy $100 worth of this ETN and bitcoin's price 5x, does that mean my holdings 5x? Where doea the money come from if the operator isn't holding any Bitcoin?

Outrageous_Word_999

It is an ETN, which means they won't buy any bitcoin, just absorb people's capital and peg based on the asset's price, which they won't directly affect in a positive way, since they are not going to buy bitcoin. Instead, they're removing capital that could directly go into bitcoin and into holding bitcoin. ETN's are a scourge.

doinkdoink786

What happened to Morgan Stanley Bitcoin etf? There’s also uk offering ETN on May 28th

riplin

UK ETN's don't have any bitcoin backing them. They're irrelevant.

Financial_Design_801

UK ETN's (May), Hong Kong ETFs, Australia Spot ETFs, US options on Bitcoin spot ETFs (Sept?) First inning still

Real_Crab_7396

I use a normal investment broker to buy bitcoin ETF, in Europe (on my broker) the best one is Wisdomtree bitcoin ETN (WBIT). I haven't bought/owned real bitcoin, but the ETF's are easy for me and give me less taxes in my country.

5tu

Yes, that’s all perfectly fine in UK (although they have only allowed the unsecured ETN and not the more ETF which requires the broker to own the asset) The problem with the white paper is some guy claimed he invented bitcoin and threatened legal action to those in the UK who published the whitepaper. The UK high court has now confirmed he is not the inventor and therefore has no claim over that whitepaper so should be free and open source to all again.

Real_Crab_7396

I use the wisdomtree bitcoin ETN WBIT, I don't think there's a buying limit.

heinzmoleman

They're doing an ETN. The difference here is that those funds won't actually own any Bitcoin. It's an unsecured debt similar to a bond. It won't do anything for BTC price action.

CryptoBelalang

Blackrock, Fidelity, Microstrstegy, HK ETF, UK ETN, Korea ETF... think about iy..

Long_Measurement3999

Yeah we also dont talk about the fact that US ETF’s don’t have options yet. UK ETN’s, Hong Kong ETFs, Australia Spot ETFs, US options on Bitcoin spot ETFs

doinkdoink786

In the ETN like etf? Do they buy spot BTC?

5tu

UK has not issued an ETF, it issued an ETN... essentially the ETN is "an unsecured bond" i.e. a legalised form of worthless notes that carry's the name but is not actually backed by bitcoin. Just wanting to clarify because I'm still surprised an ETN was allowed over an ETF.

uncapchad

yep I know but as this article was about a Deutsche Bank whose main arena of operation is Europe, it is not surprising that their survey yielded those results. You will note in my comment that I specifically said Europe Within the EU you cannot directly buy crypto ETFS because standard Ucits structure adopted by mass-market European ETFs cannot be used to hold cryptocurrencies. It's similar in the UK, retail cannot buy into any crypto ETFS. Best they can come up with is an ETN rumoured to be coming this summer

ammo_john

I believe you have an ETN or ETP for bitcoin as well in Scandinavia? MSTR sounds quite risky for his retirement checks. Definitely don't keep it on exchanges or Conbase.

Revolutionary-Ebb-26

Yeah thats what he's saying. "wait til you can buy the UK ETN". The UK version of the ETF will be an "ETN", or Exchange Traded Note. This is a different legal structure that means the fund itself will not be holding the underlying asset but instead be holding debt obligations with another entity that holds the underlying asset as collateral. I'm not well versed in these things so I don't know the implications but it sounds a bit too "paper Bitcoin" for me. I'm sure it will drive more demand in the direction of Bitcoin but if I was in the UK I would still try to get my hands on actual Bitcoin and self custody it.

whoeva11

From what I read the UK ETF is not an ETF. It is to be an ETN which means they do NOT have to hold the underlying asset. Utter nonsense and another hypocritical own goal of the UK govt whilst claiming they want the UK to be an international crypto hub

daemonpenguin

I think it will blow up, but not because of the halving. I think the new ETF and ETN regulations in Hong Kong and London, respectively, will be a bigger boost to Bitcoin's price and adoption than the halving.

MaMu_1701

„Here in Germany you can buy BTC from German banks, hold it legally and sell it legally.“ Really? Which bank? I’m aware of ETF‘s (ETN‘s) but BTC itself? (also German btw)…

JeopardyQBot

Yeah I dunno about this. "Still around" in the sense they didn't go way the way of BitConnect, but there are so many 2017 projects that are essentially dead and treading water and are only purchased by bag holders or people who left and came back years later. When was the last time you heard someone talk about Verge? or DASH, NEM, PPT, OMG, NEO, LSK, STRAT, MONA, KMD, SALT, EMC2, ETN.. etc etc those were all top 500 coins at the peak of the bull in december 2017

gosumofo

Last cycle in 2021, the drop still happened mainly to crypto degens. But this time, it’s the World that’s going to get into it through these ETF’s, ETN’s, etc. Most people in stocks will sell the fuck out of a stock dips more than 30-40% in a day or a week. They’re just not used to the level of volatility. They can’t risk losing that much when they’re so old and basically retired.

reddit4485

This is actually bad because you're just betting on the price of bitcoin but it doesn't actually buy any. Like bitcoin futures, this is bad for bitcoin/ethereum because it allows investment in both without effecting supply. https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0213/etf-or-etn-whats-the-difference.aspx An ETN also tracks an index, and the returns it pays out are based on the performance of that index. Like an ETF, an ETN can be bought or sold on an exchange. However, the ETN does not own the underlying assets. An ETN is an investment in debt, similar to a bond. It's an unsecured debt note issued by a bank.

M0neyMaker21

Dont know whats an ETPs but its actually a ETN. anyway bullish one way or another.

ResponsibilitySea327

It is paper BTC, but it is likely the exchange will require providers to hold BTC equivalents to the value of the ETN. Most likely BTC itself and not derivatives. Need to see the actual listings.

ResponsibilitySea327

The main difference will be that ETFs impact availability of shares since they need to be bought/sold. ETN, only track the underlying price and do not own the underlying asset (BTC). So ETN providers do not need to purchase to rebalance each day -- that also makes ETNs a bit riskier as the provider is essentially ensuring the value of the ETN. With a highly volatile asset like BTC, it will be interesting how providers will fund market risk and how that will impact BTC liquidity and volatility.

barnsligpark

Can anyone explain the difference between an ETF and ETN?

ammo_john

Don't you have any European ETN/ETPs tracking bitcoin as well? MSTR is a leveraged trade on Bitcoin so expect a lot more volatility and you would be buying in at a premium right now. You won't be owning bitcoin ofc, you'll be owning a paper claim and should probably diversify that risk as soon as you get a chance. If you make the MSTR purchase, which will be sensible for some, I'd still advice you to get $50-$100 in real bitcoin and play around with it (wallets, keys, lightning), the better you know the asset you are holding the better financial decisions you will make with your holdings in the future. So play around with it while the stakes are low, before the shit hits the fan. There will come a time - with fiat collapsing - when no paper claims are safe.

crscali

ETN’s don’t buy the security instead they promise to payout the amount of the tracked index at maturity

snkrjoyboy

On top of the scarcity, the newly added ETF’s and ETN’s along with all of the institutional/retail investors who will add a HUGE amount of demand will eat up the remaining supply which will inevitably drive BTC Prices soaring. However, stay focused if you are planning on selling. Be happy with how much you sold BTC for otherwise keep it locked up.

r66yprometheus

What the hell is an "ETN"?

snkrjoyboy

The UK also opening up their ETN’s for investors only. They’re definitely going to hork up BTC’s

bla_blah_bla

Depending on your school of thought the safest investments are gold or short term gov bonds from "solid" states (whatever "solid" means). But gold doesn't guarantee anything from keeping it. Bonds instead, at the actual rates, have coupons that reward the holders with around 1-5% yearly of their capital. Are all these investors stupid not investing all their money in crypto? Crypto isn't safe. Except for the BTC ETF-ETN, crypto markets are mostly unregulated. And highly volatile. You can wake up in november with 3 times your capital or half of it. Either you do your research, understand the field and learn how to invest, or you're risking to lose your money. But if you're still convinced the odds are on your side, pick BTC. It's the least likely to completely fall apart with a huge number of almost religious followers.

gosumofo

AND, Michael Saylor definitely going to buyin more. AND, the United Kingdom going to be opening up ETN’s for their investors to get in on this action. Also, the mania hasn’t even happened yet

snkrjoyboy

And when UK starts to let their investors buy into ETN. Also, before BlackRock buys up more IBIT.

MrAccountant213

London stock exchange are accepting Bitcoin and Ethereum ETN applications… ETN are for professional investors it looks like, but damn

gosumofo

There are people who wait to buy and those who are actually buying now because they believe it’ll go up further. The ones waiting will be the ones who don’t have much to gain. With ETF’s and in April, ETN…Bitcoin will definitely see intense gains and drop

-AgitoMakishima-

Give me a Polkadot ETN with staking rewards!

Tkldsphincter

Apparently Europe is looking to get applications for BTC ETN come Q3. So by Q4 it's likely we see BTC ETFs in USA, Europe, and China. 

gosumofo

Also, The UK opening up to get ETN and buy up Bitcoin as well. Not open to the public but to the investors. I’m sure BTC going to be a wild ride but stay focused on your exit point.

miscfiles

In the UK we're apparently looking at ETF's dodgy cousin, ETN. Still very bullish.

Electronic_Ad_3058

With the upcoming approval of BTC AND ETH ETN'S in the UK and Mudrex offering of US bases ETF'S in India skies the limit 🚀

Independent_Row_Goes

FWIW I feel the need to remind everyone to read the prospectus on each and every new crypto ETF/ETN and look for the particular statement that documents whether the fund is based on the coin’s futures contract or the actual physical coin. Volmageddon was an event a decade ago where another “strategy” linked to VIX futures went broke. If your ETF/ETN is tied to the coin’s future’s contract, consider this your warning just to stay away all together

Real_Crab_7396

Not that much, I've bought 3000 euros of bitcoin trackers on Degiro. I'm 18 and in Europe, so these trackers are easiest for me. I have found out today that WBIT (wisdomtree bitcoin ETN) is the cheapest for me so I'll be buying more of that.

lexwolfe

dead in terms of investment opportunities still alive in [development](https://medium.com/@ETN-Network/project-aurelius-what-does-it-take-to-implement-evm-into-a-blockchain-6f39d9d0c572) but isn't this the kind of thing we wanted? You can earn it and spend it.

lexwolfe

Electroneum 3million users, 2318 merchants in 177 countries accepting ETN including major brands like Apple, Amazon, Vodafone. Pi Network will blow this out of the water.

CapableHair429

BTW….an ETP …..HAS TO be further classified as either an ETF, ETC, or ETN….so, which is Bitcoin ETF then? (Hint…it’s in the title of the Exchange-Traded product. “Bitcoin ETF” just because the announcement on the SEC.GOV website keeps on saying that Bitcoin was approved as a product, doesn’t mean what you think it means. A ETP HAS TO BE one of 3 things, either an ETF, ETC, or ETN. Reading comprehension my guy….try it.

Defusion55

lots of people did. There were several posts warning people of this exact scenario playing out after their ETN was converted.

CapableHair429

I think you are confusing ETP’s with ETC’s. ETC’s are not necessarily trades funds, but rather financial instruments which don’t necessarily have to have backing. ETP’s are the main set of trades instruments; of which ETF’s, ETN’s, and ETC’s are PART OF. If you want to think of it in terms of food. Steak (ETF’s) are red meat, chicken (ETN’s) are poultry, and fish (ETC’s) is seafood….however they are all protein (ETP’s) So….did the SEC approve Bitcoin as an ETP? Yes…absolutely. Did they approve Bitcoin as an ETF? Yes…absolutely. They approved Bitcoin as an ETF; which by natural logic means it is ALSO an ETP. https://leverageshares.com/en/insights/what-is-the-difference-between-etf-and-etp/#:~:text=ETPs%20are%20a%20broader%20category,are%20a%20subset%20of%20ETPs.

Major-Front

I was going to signup to HL because they have a Bitcoin ETN or something. Can I still buy that? I was going to put some pension funds into it

begemotik228

ETF is neither a derivative nor an ETN The actual reason they're not allowed is that the ETFs are not UCITS compliant (European regulations for ETFs)

kettu1

ETP is the blanket term that covers all exchange-traded products. Exchange-traded funds (ETF) is just one type of ETP. Other example would be exchange-traded notes (ETN) and exchange-traded commodities (ETC). Basically all the spot bitcoin products offered will work in the same way as ETFs work, that's why people talk about them as spot bitcoin ETFs, but you could also call them spot bitcoin ETPs without making any notable difference in what you're talking about.

Friendly-Western-677

What is an ETN?