CGT

ColtAzayaka

Maybe someone can correct and clarify if I’m missing something here, but I see no reason why you couldn’t use your BTC holdings as collateral to secure a loan. Depending on the terms of the loan it might be more convenient and/or cheaper than directly purchasing fiat currency with BTC and later paying more fees to repurchase the BTC. Selling BTC for fiat is likely also tax-inefficient due to CGT. A loan also mitigates repricing risk, which might be worth considering given BTC’s volatility, but unless you need the money for a significant length of time that probably doesn't matter too much. You’re right, though. A lot of people talk about the current value of their investments as if it were realised profit rather than an open position.

Swimming_Sign_888

Because you can borrow against it if you need cash. Plus you wont activate CGT by doing that. Go and read a few books about money before coming here with your fucked up questions

Aussiehash

Keep in mind that Governments are constantly trying to spend more and to tax more, the recent superannuation legislation being an example, and the treat of taxing unrealised capital gains. There is also discussion about changing stamp duty and abolishing negative gearing and the CGT discount.

cosmicchitony

For specific tax calculations in Australia, you should consult with a qualified accountant who specializes in cryptocurrency, as your personal income and the timing of sales will drastically impact your liability. There are accountants out there who will give free consultations if you ask. Anyways a common strategy is to sell portions in different financial years to utilize the 50% CGT discount and potentially avoid pushing yourself into a higher tax bracket.

PTRBRIG

Bloody hell - so we're taxed twice? CGT, then the remaining is added to income tax, thus possibly increasing our tax bracket? So tim guessing the play would be to: 1) Avoid full CGT by waiting 1 year + 2) Only sell an amount per year that would put you slightly below the next bracket to avoid additional income tax? Thanks

Last_Explanation9105

CGT differs from income taxes in the context of any capital losses you may have (which you can not offset the income tax). So, you subtract capital losses from CGT, then apply 50% discount. From the tax brackets perspective, income and capital gains are in the same bucket (after CGT discounts, the remaining gains are added to your taxable income and taxed based on your total income tax rate).

PTRBRIG

Thanks for the reply, so I'm a touch confused because you said it doesn't apply to income tax but then said sell slowly to stay in a lower bracket? Can you pls explain that again for me? So if i stop all my DCA for a year (to make the recent deposits 50% CGT) Then I should probably start to DCA out? Small withdrawals? How would you go about it? Excuse my ignorance haha Thanks for the insight.

Last_Explanation9105

For ATO, BTC is an asset, and CGT applies, not income tax. Each buy has its own 12-month clock for the 50% CGT discount. So, use FIFO and sell slowly to stay in a lower bracket. Keep all the records (ATO gets a copy of the exchange data). Starter options can include borrowing, using BTC as a collateral, using non-KYC, SMSF, immigration, etc.

Head-End-5909

In the US, any sell/swap resulting in profit is a taxable event. The profit has been realized whether or not it’s moved to your bank as fiat. On top of that, you have to report your crypto holdings on tax forms each year. Here’s what a 1 minute search on the Internet yielded about the UK: ———— No, in the UK, leaving the fiat proceeds from a cryptocurrency sale on an exchange does not prevent it from being a taxable event. According to HMRC rules, selling crypto for fiat currency (like GBP) constitutes a “disposal” and triggers Capital Gains Tax (CGT) on any profit at the point of the sale itself, regardless of whether you withdraw the funds to your bank account or leave them on the platform.   The gain is considered realized upon disposal, based on the fair market value at that moment minus your allowable costs (e.g., acquisition price plus fees), and it’s aggregated with other gains for the tax year. This aligns with broader HMRC guidance treating crypto as capital assets, where the tax liability arises from the transaction, not from cashing out to traditional banking. For the 2024-2025 tax year, you’d need to report this via Self Assessment if your total gains exceed the £3,000 CGT allowance, with rates at 18% for basic-rate taxpayers or 24% for higher/additional-rate ones (up from prior years due to 2024 budget changes). Keep detailed records of each trade, as exchanges’ reports alone aren’t sufficient for HMRC compliance. If the sale involves crypto-to-crypto trades (e.g., BTC to stablecoin before fiat), each step could be a separate disposal, compounding the tax events—something worth double-checking in your scenario.  If your activities resemble trading rather than investing, HMRC might reclassify profits as income taxable at up to 45%, but that’s assessed case-by-case based on frequency and intent.

fairyflossmagpie

Plus CGT.

OkSeries5363

I'm not saying they get doubled taxed? I was the one who originally informed OP of the DTA with Portugal. The fact that a complex legal treaty is required to prevent double taxation proves that both the US and Sweden have a legal claim to tax the same income. If the US didn't tax its citizens abroad, the treaty wouldn't be necessary! Think of like this, the US citizenship based tax is the full price on the item. The DTA is a coupon that might reduce what you owe at the register, sometimes even to zero. But you absolutely still have to go to the checkout counter and show them the coupon, file your taxes. You can't just walk out of the store because you have a coupon in your pocket.  This is critical for capital gains. If US citizen lives in Portugal. If Portugals tax on a specific capital gain is 0% the US coupon ie the foreign tax credit is worth $0. The citizen will then owe the full US capital gains tax to the IRS.  Not living in the US for 6 months doesn't mean your US taxes go away or the obligation report. The treaty prevents paying tax twice on the same dollar but it does not prevent the US from taxing a dollar that the other country chose not to. Just to be clear the only real escape from US tax obligations is to renounce or relinquish your citizenship. But don't think of it as a simple tax dodge, the US can hit you with a large expatriation tax on the way out. For CGT it forces a deemed disposal which means paying all your unrealised capital gains on your global investments.

normnormno

If I sold at 126 and bought back at 105 I'd have 28% CGT to pay on it. Don't see the point.

JamesTiberious

Too wishy washy - If I’m going to taxed CGT on actual bitcoin without any protections/at my own risk, then I expect to be protected for an ETN within an ISA.

quazatron48k

It’s called day trading and be careful you can cover any CGT you might be amassing.

Satoshiman256

ISA is no CGT

SpareDesigner1

Gold and silver are my BTC. I can’t get direct exposure to BTC ETFs in a UK ISA, and I don’t want to be paying CGT if I don’t have to.

crunchyeyeball

If you're in the UK, you might also be aware that in a few days we're finally getting access to something akin to the bitcoin ETFs, which ought to be available within a tax-advantaged wrapper like an ISA, bypassing CGT: https://moneyweek.com/investments/bitcoin-crypto/which-platforms-offer-crypto-etns Much as I generally prefer self-custody, the thought of holding some in a tax-exempt wrapper too is awfully appealing. Just something to consider.

DaVirus

The only thing that would help a bit is flipping your cold storage to SIPP to use the CGT allowance when you get close to retirement.

normnormno

How about because everyone has the chance to build wealth and escape the rat race when CGT is lower, not just the already wealthy. Better question; Why would you want to abolish something just because it benefits someone else more than you?

Qu1nt3n

I don't. I would be in favour of CGT if it meant a significantly lower tax on labour, but guess what.. ;)

Haagen76

For 10% CGT !? That's really low.

kurt206

|Country|Crypto CGT Regime|Rates|Allowances / Reliefs|Notes vs Belgium (10% + €10k exempt)| |:-|:-|:-|:-|:-| |**Belgium (from 1 Jan 2026)**|Flat CGT on “financial assets” (incl. crypto)|**10%**|**€10k annual exemption** (carry forward €1k/year, max €15k); step-up basis at 31 Dec 2025; exit tax if emigrate|Competitive flat rate; long-term not exempt like DE/PT| |**Germany**|Private sale rule|0% if held ≥1 year; taxed at income tax rates (14–45%) if <1 year|€600 allowance (very small)|Much better for long-term; worse for short-term high earners| |**Portugal**|CGT if held <365 days|**28%**|Exempt if ≥1 year|Same as Germany: superior for long-term, worse for short-term| |**UK (from Apr 2025)**|CGT on crypto|**18% / 24%** depending on income|**£3k** allowance|Belgium’s 10% + €10k is lighter| |**France**|Flat tax on digital assets|**30%** (12.8% IT + 17.2% social)|€305 exemption|Belgium much lighter| |**Netherlands**|Wealth tax (Box 3) on deemed returns|Effective \~36%|No CGT allowance (based on deemed return)|Very different model; can be harsher than Belgium| |**Spain**|Savings income tax|**19–28%**|None (bands apply)|Belgium lighter across brackets| |**Italy**|CGT on crypto|**26%33%** (rising to in 2026)|€2,000 threshold (shifting rules)|Belgium far lighter| that would be a mistake - 10% is still better than most European countries. Here's chatGPTs list:

forest-moth

How much CGT did you pay back in your own country LOL

AggravatingTrade9388

Yes you could and it’s already at 3k for CGT purposes. One thing though is that it’s for gains only so if you bought it for say 10k and it’s now 15k the gain is 5k for cgt purposes and you pay tax on the remaining 2k - basically you can do more than 3k a year for that reason

Wide-Measurement9654

One reason for me personally investing in the ETF is to avoid CGT via a tax free ISA. But I am accumulating in cold storage for the long term.

Epileptic_Fridgeboy2

Worth keeping an eye on government policy regarding CGT in the meantime. In the UK for example there are rumours CGT may get reset to match Income Tax percentage, although if it does happen it could get repealed by a future government and go back down. So, depending on how much you potentially plan to use in retirement, it's worth at least reconciling yourself with the fact you may lose a hefty chunk of your gains in tax. I know there are some fancy ways of getting around this but not all of them are safe or practical for a lot of people. Crypto is only going to get increasingly regulated from here on in, so conservative estimates of future income are better than fanciful ones.

Primary-Pie-1662

You can make £3000 in capital gains without incurring a CGT liability. So you can sell more than £3000, as your original stake that made £3000 is not taxable, only the gain. So if you bought £3000 of BTC and sold for £6000, all of that is tax free.

Far_Discount_9024

I bought 10 Bitcoin in 2015 for $465 each . I still own them all today . I dont buy any more Bitcoins now . I do buy a lot of coinbase and micro strategy shares . Never thought of selling. I did a cost of how much taxes ( CGT) I wouid have pay if I sold my 10 bitcoins. £185,000 in taxes. That's will never happen. I know people who took bigger risks and bought a few years before me . Multi millionaire, Iam happy for them . To risky at the time for me . Happy with what I have 👍👍🙏🥂🥳😇

andasifbymagicthere

Its profit not withdrawn amount. You could sell £1,000,000 and not pay any CGT as long as you bought for £997,000. You could also sell off any poor holdings and write off the losses in the same way. So if your holding some junk but wanted to take profits out of others those losses could be offset to keep your profits under the £3k

babblefish111

As long as you are realising under £3k in overall capital gains then you don't need to declare anything or do anything. Definitely best to keep it under £3000 to avoid having to submit a tax self assessment every year. What a scam though - a few years ago the CGT allowance was £12000 Watch out for the budget in November because they could mess with it again.

dex2grigg

Yep that's what I do. Fuck paying a penny in CGT to this government

turboRock

any crypto transaction attracts CGT. It' not just at the "cash out to fiat" phase.

Fluid_Garden8512

>Recommend selling all on PayPal for cash and transferring those dollars to Strike or River to buy real Bitcoin 1. You can withdraw Bitcoin on PayPal 2. OP is up 60%. Selling to rebuy will mean a large CGT event

Nullius_123

If you live in Britain, HMRC will expect you to declare the capital gain and pay CGT accordingly, no matter where in the world your gain arises. The so-called non-dom arrangements might still apply if you are not a citizen and haven't been in Britain for long. Seek professional tax advice.

I-make-ada-spaghetti

The whole point of doing this is to avoid having to pay capital gains tax because if you sell the asset you pay CGT and you miss out on any gains the asset would have accrued. If you borrow against it you pay no tax but you do have to pay interest which is ok because it is less than CGT and the interest payments aren't all due within a year of disposing of the asset. You only need enough cashflow to pay the interest. You are sort of using inflation to eat away at the debt. You still owe the same dollar figure but that amount of money has less value at the loan maturity date, plus you still own the asset which has hopefully increased in value relative to inflation.

Podsly

True, but tax evasion does. And for crypto like foreX where all transactions are CGT events, that is by definition avoiding the tax unless they show the tax department the transactions thus nullifying the use of Tornado Cash.

Fragrant_Strain2023

Best way to do it anyway bro, avoid that CGT. This is exactly what the richest people in the world do 🤜👌

Hot_Philosopher3199

It was held in self storage through a self directed IRA. Now it gets unwound to a Traditional IRA through Fidelity. No CGT

Makunouchiipp0

So you’re hitting yourself with a CGT event? You know in kind (both ways) is a thing? And if it’s not yet available in your country it won’t be too far away

StealthExplorer

I would investigate Strike. Have used them, easy-peasy. Just make sure you connect with Revolut or Monzo accounts or you are at risk of your bank account being frozen, or at the least opening up a can of worms. Remember too to keep all details of the transaction as you are most likely liable for CGT when/if you dispose of the bitcoin.

Aussiehash

You would need to talk to your accountant about CGT liabilities to the ATO, even if you intend to permanently migrate overseas. You might also have to pay land tax if you have an Aussie home that is not your principal residence.

forest-moth

Sell the Bitcoin on an exchange or to someone wanting your coins and pay the owing CGT What’s the question?

Dettol-tasting-menu

Well done and congrats! Bitcoin in your cold wallet is freedom bitcoin, while bitcoin in your IBIT custodian (Coinbase) account is locked up bitcoin. You’re right if you want to free your jail cell coin you will have to 1) sell your IBIT, 2) wait for settlement and take profit (if any), 3) set aside CGT amount (ouch), 4) send cash from ETF broker account to bitcoin exchange, 5) wait for exchange deposit process, and then finally 6) buy real bitcoin. Since it needs to go through the whole tradfi banking process, it could take days, and market could move significantly during the fiat transit, and the CGT will eat into your total stack too. That’s the price to pay for the “convenience” of ETF. If I were in your shoes I would just leave the IBIT untouched, but only stack real sats from now on. Once the sats get locked up in ETF the effort required to free them again is high and often not worth the trouble, better stay away from ETF from the beginning, provided that you have the technical capacity of self custodying. You have definitely made the right decision of buying real bitcoin, let’s stack real sats from now on. Good luck!

whaleofathyme

What is the CGT you’ll have to pay on that? What level does BTC need to be so if you buy in you’ll break even?

Wunid

Your descendants inherit the BTC and debt and continue doing the same thing. This isn't really new. Wealthy people do this in the regular market, bypassing CGT. They also get much better loan terms, so their assets don't have to grow as quickly.

Hit4Help

So then you die and your estate needs to pay off the debts still. Looks like that would avoid the CGT, but makes an already complex situation even more complex.

Hit4Help

I've been trying to work this through in my head. Assuming you have 1BTC worth 1m. Taking a very conversitive 10% loan against the BTC collateral would give 100K. While this could be a couple year living for some, you would still have an interest rate of say 6% to pay back. Either you take that money to put into traditional money earners like stocks or property, but right now the lending rates seem to be lower than any interest you could get. How do you factor paying back the loan? If you want to use the BTC to service the loan then you need to pay the CGT.

Ok_Score9113

If you are paying CGT that means you’ve made profit, so what’s the issue? You could apply this to any asset outside of a tax sheltered account

Wiggly-Pig

An Australian company is about to do this for home loans. 60% LvR for BTC and about 9% interest from what I saw. So still terrible compared to traditional mortgages, but you don't need to sell (and therefore incur CGT) plus it will start competition in that market that will bring interest rates down

theabominablewonder

If you want to avoid CGT in the short term then use your ETH as collateral for a stablecoin loan and then cash out the stablecoins. If you want to cash out entirely then just pay the tax. Crypto is traceable on the blockchain and ATMs in europe will require you to verify your ID so the transactions could be linked back to you at some point and then you will face potential fines/interest on the tax you were trying to avoid.

Phfat_John

On the face of it, this just sounds like a scheme for tax avoidance rather than being a legitimate tax minimisation strategy. So can potentially get caught under Part IVA of the ITAA 1936. What is the point of doing this? You will probably have to pay more in fees, conversion rate is probably worse than converting to fiat on an exchange. So while you're capital gain is reduced, you lose out overall because you've made less of a gain. Potentially legitimate to avoid foreign conversion costs if you were to change AUD into EUR for the trip costs. But your concern about visibility of crypto transactions with the ATO makes it seem like you're trying to hide the value of a potential CGT event and the actual event itself to avoid the tax.

Kenbarlow78

Don’t panic if there’s a slump in value between now and 2027. We’re coming to the end of Bitcoin season (bitcoin dominance is down below 60% now). People say there’ll be another surge first, but I’m expecting a significant pullback soon, while people focus on ETH and the mystical and elusive alt coin season. 2026 will be like winter for Bitcoin. I’ll start buying again in mid-late 2026 and through 2027, in advance of the 2028 halving. Expecting the big surge for my Bitcoin portfolio to come in 2029. I’m not selling my Bitcoin pre slump for a couple of reasons, if you’re wondering. 1) this cycle has been a little different what with recent introductions of framework and legislation, so maybe the drop doesn’t happen and Bitcoin enters a golden stretch of mass adoption 🤷‍♂️ 2) I live in Ireland, so selling/swapping my position trigger a 33% CGT obligation. 3) Quite simply, I believe Bitcoin will continue to trend up in value. Over the next five years it could pass the million mark. Ten years from now, who knows? Good luck with your investments and if you’re looking for a relatively safe crypto to invest in that’s likely to achieve gains in the near future, maybe have a look at some of the top altcoin like ETH, ADA, RENDER, XRP, SUI. Solana is popular too, but is already running on a high. I’d avoid it for now… Good look with your investments.

polymath_uk

What capital gain are you making? You bought BTC at $100,000 and moments later sold it for $100,001. The CGT is 20% of $1 = 20 cents. If you sold at $99,999 you could offset the $1 loss against other gains surely?

Best-Click8583

Big hug for seeing your dog over the rainbow highway, those are some of the hardest times. Yup that’s my boarder collie and his sister (aussi shepherd) is somewhere in the corn fields. What is CGT? 

Tmilkandtwo

Is that a border collie? Way to go using bitcoin to fund you and your dog's dream. I lost my 14 ½ year old dog and my heart last month. I hope CGT isn't too steep where you are

VeryThicknLong

Is this on top of CGT?!?

Cubehagain

The UK want you to pay CGT tax on an asset they have no belief in.

Interesting_Loss_907

Wait…what? Why would you sell & pay CGT just to move coins from one wallet to another. I don’t use RH personally so idk, but are telling me RH does not allow users to send BTC? If so, that’s **terrible** service & in that case I’m glad I never used them. With every other wallet, even custodial wallets like coinbase, kraken, cashapp etc, you can just send directly to any BTC address you want. You do **not** normally have to cash out to usd (creating CGT liability) to re-buy & move to another wallet.

NeoG_

CGT calculation in Australia is sell price -(purchase + fees) = capital gain/loss The capital gain is added to your income for that financial year. If you have owned the asset for more than 12 months you add half of the capital gain to your income.

Bred_Slippy

Don't forget your company is a separate entity to you. In order to change the ownership of your personal BTC to your company, the transfer would be considered a taxable event (for CGT). Also, bear in mind the BTC within the company will be classed as an intangible asset and any profits will be subject to corporation tax. From a tax POV, it would likely be better to hold a spot ETF within an ISA or SIPP, than putting it in the company. 

Dettol-tasting-menu

But you see that’s the problem. Say you bought some ETF and it went up in price significantly after a few years, then you want to try self custody, you likely won’t go ahead because you will then have to sell your ETF, take profit, pay CGT on the profit, and then buy bitcoin with your post-tax money. You will simply get less bitcoin that way so you won’t do it. Bitcoin is valuable because it is a permisionless and decentralised asset, bitcoin locked up in a ETF custody doesn’t make it valuable. If everyone does that then bitcoin dies. It’d be much better for everyone to start by holding bitcoin themselves. If it’s in a retirement fund with substantial tax benefits, then sure go ETF for that portion, but apart from that tax scenario most people should self custody. It’s not difficult and many products on market make it super simple.

pyravex

All I'm saying is instead of 'complying' and putting up with absurdly high CGT, move somewhere where you don't need to pay. I used to live in Austria, and was paying 27% CGT. I got fed up with it and moved to Switzerland. Now paying 0%.

HippycrackJack

Not when you have to track cost basis and pay CGT on every transaction it isn't. In such a scenario, its use case is storing wealth and avoiding debasement. Sorry that doesn't fit your narrative.

btc6000

Have a look at navexa, their portfolio tracker can calculate CGT using different strategies and produce tax reports for you

Due-Candy-8929

Tempted to withdraw profits to fiat to throw it into HYSA’s - as soon as I sell anything it triggers CGT anyway so not much appeal in stable coins to me :/

warmans

In most countries surely you'd get taxed twice getting paid in bitcoin. The company probably pays taxes from your salary, buys the bitcoin to pay you then you pay CGT on withdrawals (or at least need to calculate them). Sounds like a massive administrative overhead for very little benefit (considering you could just buy the bitcoin yourself).

Naive_Carpenter7321

Cars depreciate quickly, Bitcoin could go down as well as up during the course of any loan. My recommendation would be to sell some Bitcoin and top back up as if repaying a loan. The CGT will get involved at some point anyway unless he's a lifetime hoarder. If Bitcoiners want Bitcoin to be money, surely it has to be used like money.

dm_sufc

is this 100% correct regarding bank transfers? Nobody has had a definitive answer. Someone said they spoke to Barclays and they said it's ANY crypto transaction. My query is what if someone struck gold and wanted to cash out £500k, and had to pay £120,000 CGT on that, Barclays restricting withdrawals to £10k means you'd need to say oh hold on mr taxman I cant get you that money yet.

Kangaroo-dollars

Make sure you read up on capital gains tax in whatever country you're in. In my country (Australia), we get a 50% CGT discount if you hold anything for more than 12 months before selling it for a profit. Since I bought crypto in October last year, I won't sell any of it until the 12 months has passed. In addition to that: many investors far more knowledgeable than myself have speculated that bitcoin is likely to continue rising until at least Oct/Nov this year, at a minimum. So you wouldn't want to sell any of it before then, regardless of CGT.

Born-Ad4452

Firstly - there is the capital gains tax management part. You need to record and manage all that, and recover all that value just to stand still. Not sure where you are based but if you had to pay for example 20% CGT, then a dip of at least that will be essential.

metamorphosis

It all depends on profit, your income bracket etc . In Australia is similar. If you hold an asset for < 12 months it's 100% taxable. So if you are a high income server and let's say your CGT on crypto is 200k. You'll effectively will pay 100K in taxes . If you hold for 12+ months you'll pay 50k. So 50k is big money, but holding can be risky..... however your bag needs to drop 25%+ for you to be in negative

Chewbakka-Wakka

Being 19, you can afford to buy and hold - you may find yourself in this for life. "a couple hundred a week" - If you can invest 10K - 20K now then sure, can done by holding where value goes up by a few percent then you would gain a few hundred. Otherwise if trying to buy and sell to make that with a low amount, I'd advise caution. You must also check if taxable per trade. May need to pay CGT and all trades can be taxable events. Buy and hold is simplest, and safest option. Stick to like top 50 coins by market cap for safe stable bet. ADA is a solid option now. ( this is IMO )

kipha01

I just use a combo of Koinly free, will pay when I need to deal with CGT, and coingecko, also free.

Mental-Health-Crisis

In Germany no CGT after 10 years of ownership and if you lived on the land yourself for two consecutive years no CGT either. All profits are yours. CGT 25% flat when you sell before the 10 years are up. Very favourable conditions. Same with bitcoin, hold it one year minimum and all the profits would be yours if you sell - no CGT. I don't know where the OP is located though.

Interesting_Loss_907

I agree 100% that they’ll always know when you sell & take capital gains if you’re using an exchange (and I do). For larger amounts it would be very difficult to avoid kyc & you’re far better off just reporting it, assuming they know anyway, & paying your CGT. But that was not the topic above. The question was do they know how many you are holding. And into that, I think the answer is no. But thankfully, in the US that’s not a concern anyway, as we are not obligated to report those holdings. We are only obligated to report when we spend or sell it for capital gains.

conkersdeep10

It’s pretty easy tbh mate. Set up a Kraken Pro account, do the required KYC stuff they are obliged to ask for by the FCA. Transfer money into KP from your current account. Buy BTC. Move it off KP to your wallet. As you’re in the UK I’d advise keeping track of things using ‘Koinly’ (free version) or something similar, just to keep track of your CGT when you sell.

Fit_Put_5648

I hope she is will pay CGT

mikkeltaylor1

This , but wait until it’s more established and you don’t have to incur CGT

ConversationNice6589

Unless you are lucky enough to live in a CGT haven like the UAE then yes you have to report it. I’ve pondered not reporting but truth is they find out and then it’s game over.

Own-Helicopter-5558

I was just researching very thing because I have been thinking about my kids junior stocks ISAs and the lack of return they have had from S&P500 compared to my BTC. There is no actual law in the UK stating a minor cannot own BTC, they just have no on and off ramp until they're 18. You can buy them a wallet and buy BTC for them. You will be technically disposing of the BTC if you buy it and immediately transfer it to their wallet so in theory you can buy up to £3000/year on their behalf and not be over the capitol gains threshold. So you could do this all throughout the bear market when you are not making any on capitol gains on your own BTC. Or if you are stacking yourself for the long term you could buy your kids BTC for years and stop when you want to sell some of your own assets. Your wife could do the same with her capitol gains allowance so 2 kids investing £3000/year each with no tax implication on your part. Whenever I have looked at the capitol gains aspect on my self assessment, they are only interested in seeing details of capitol gains over the threshold so I doubt you would have to give details (but research that part specifically if you don't already do self assessment). However, the kids will have paid £0 for their BTC so when they go to sell it for a house in 20 years, they will have to pay CGT on 100% of their bags (a small price for having a house deposit at 23). I am of the opinion that in 15-20 years time when my kids need to buy houses. I will be able to custody a portion my BTC with the lender and they will be able to have a fully BTC backed interest only mortgage and they will be building equity while paying only £150-£300/month in interest payments, leaving them with enough surplus income to make their own investments and won't feel they have to wait until they're in their 30s to have kids, then every 5 years when they need to rearrange the mortgage, the amount of BTC required for collateral will reduce and I will be able to quietly draw down on the rest for my pension, and all that could be done with as little as 1 BTC.

cliftonianbristol

I’m awed that you cannot consider its CGT? Almost half is gone to dear state

Many_Revenue_6928

It's 24%, but yes sure. I pay CGT on all my investment gains. Not sure why crypto should be any different. I'm happy to contribute to the society I live in and benefit from.

Mental-Health-Crisis

Garbage. If you're clueless don't parade it. Bitcoin was already declared "private money" in 2013 aka "unit of account" years and years before anyone even acknowledged bitcoin as an asset: [https://www.cnbc.com/2013/08/19/bitcoin-recognized-by-germany-as-private-money.html](https://www.cnbc.com/2013/08/19/bitcoin-recognized-by-germany-as-private-money.html) Besides there are numerous EU laws like MiCA protecting digital asset holders and regualting service providers. My 20x since buying are CGT free.

Elendron

Interesting point. Wouldn't they need to wait until one year has passed to fairly conclude that CGT returns has dropped though? I suppose they can compare month on month. Perhaps they'll reduce in October then :>

Silver_Archer_7527

The CGT returns dropped since the last rise. Laffer curve has been hit.

BlackDog990

>Under Australian law every single disposal is considered a CGT event which requires record keeping by law. This means if you buy a $5 coffee you have to record the date, time, price of btc on the day, price of btc when you first acquired that btc, the accounting method (e.g. first in first out), what the transaction was for, the transaction ID, the recipients bitcoin address. This is all mostly true under US law as well. Doesnt stop us? 🤷‍♂️ >Australia does not have any carve out for diminimus use Neither does US. >they only have what is called a personal use asset exemption which refers to the exemption of record keeping if you purchase a specific amount of bitcoin to use it straight away (effectively within one week) to buy something that is for sale in bitcoin. That's awesome! Nothing like that in US. >Compare this to Singapore They are great, but a bit of a unicorn. Not many countries have what youre looking for. All this is to say, while I agree the banks are outta line telling you what you can/cant do with your money the examples you provided arent really any different than the US or some other big players.

slvbtc

CGT makes bitcoin an unviable payment method because of record keeping burden. Under Australian law every single disposal is considered a CGT event which requires record keeping by law. This means if you buy a $5 coffee you have to record the date, time, price of btc on the day, price of btc when you first acquired that btc, the accounting method (e.g. first in first out), what the transaction was for, the transaction ID, the recipients bitcoin address. Then you need to calulate the capital gain or loss and then keep those records for 8 years in case you are audited. This is for every single transaction even a coffee. It doesnt matter if there was a capital gain or a capital loss you still need to keep these records by law. Australia does not have any carve out for diminimus use exemptions for example "transactions under $500 are exempt from CGT", they only have what is called a personal use asset exemption which refers to the exemption of record keeping if you purchase a specific amount of bitcoin to use it straight away (effectively within one week) to buy something that is for sale in bitcoin. This record keeping burden makes it impossible to use bitcoin as a daily payments method for any bitcoin held by an individual for more than one week. Compare this to Singapore for example where there is zero CGT meaning if you use bitcoin to buy a coffee there is no record keeping burden imposed, allowing bitcoin to be frictionlessly used in commerce. Australia is anti bitcoin.

NeoG_

I don't understand how CGT makes it not viable as a payment method, can you explain?

Amber_Sam

>reduce CGT That's my problem. Reducing doesn't mean eliminating. Bitcoin is money, there should be no tax on it.

Dark_Raiden_

Keep it in a non KYC exchange or wallet, swap it to tether and the claim 50% discount CGT when u sell it after a year.

Extreme-Respect-4966

This should be upvoted as I can imagine others confusing income tax rates with CGT.

Difficult-Set-3151

24% CGT is still significantly less tax than what people working for their money have to pay.

user_name_checks_out

> Reform are bound to reduce CGT. They don't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning a majority

Own-Helicopter-5558

Imagine you had BTC worth $1,000,000 and you used 25% of it as collateral on an interest only mortgage for a $250k house. You will only be paying the mortgage interest payments on the mortgage. 5 years later you refinance, your BTC is worth $2,000,000 and your house is worth $275,000 so you will not have to put as much BTC down as collateral. You haven't sold the BTC so you should not pay CGT on it, but you will probably have to custody it with the lender during the term of the mortgage. Effectively you get home ownership with very low monthly payments.

Own-Helicopter-5558

24% CGT is just theft. Hodl for another cycle until the commies are out in 2029. Reform are bound to reduce CGT. Personally I am planning to hodl until my kids need housing, by this time I am pretty sure we will be able to use BTC as collateral against an interest only mortgage. If not then we will truly be living in a backwater hell hole and we will have emigrated.

Fluid_Garden8512

I have already lodged my return and what was a massive help was [Koinly](https://koinly.io/?via=B9E95F79&utm_source=friend) which has been tracking all my cost basis for every single transaction I have ever made since 2017, that made my life easy in terms of working our CGT. The thing pulls all your transactions using APIs from all your exchanges, and creates tax reports for you. I like it so much that I have two accounts - one for my personal stash and one from my retirement account to keep tabs of everything.

TheMajesticPrincess

CGT is capital gains tax, which is what you pay if you own something and the price goes up and you sell it for a profit (applies to stocks, housing, crypto etc). If you have been trading memecoins you'll likely need to look back at your entire transaction history and work out if in any of the years you've made more than £3,000 between two Aprils.

Vorzak0n3

What is mean CGT ? Well I trade memecoins ...

TheMajesticPrincess

If you've only lost money theoretically you shouldn't owe CGT. Depends if you sold or not. If you haven't sold anything ever you shouldn't owe CGT. CGT only happens if you trade currencies. If you've made less than (I believe £3K) you also shouldn't owe CGT. (This is the boat I'm in)

cooltone

Buy/Sell in GDP Track in USD. Capital Gains Tax is the thorny issue here, it's an odd tax construction that is important to understand. Your Bitcoin is treated as one pile irrespective of how many wallets and exchanges it's spread across. You maintain and record the value of bitcoin in your pile. Each time you add or subtract some bitcoin you will recalculate the value of your pile. Capital Gains is the market value minus the pile value for the amount of bitcoin you sell. This means you will need to record all your bitcoin transactions for long as you hold any bitcoin. The unit of account for CGT is GBP. If you buy in USD you must record the GDP/USD or something to verify the exchange rate otherwise it would not be possible to determine the CGT. This will painful for you and HMRC. There is an abundance of tracking information in USD, just bear in mind the exchange rates fluctuate.