CGT

Darren0590

Yes, leave the country for 5 years not having the UK as permanent residency and you will not pay CGT.

W1_NNY

At £3k per year he is never going to capitalise on the BTC he has. Even selling CGT free will take multiple decades

Bred_Slippy

Remember you get £3k per tax year as a CGT allowance so you might want to disinvest on either side of a tax year if the timing's right.  You can also deduct any buying and selling costs from the gain. 

W1_NNY

Yep they are #%^*+=$€ Is there anyway to avoid this CGT while living in UK?

Mental-Health-Crisis

Don't need to. No CGT in Germany after one year holding period...but I would if I had to do it. Taxation is theft especially after already paying income tax and then investing MY money only to be taxed again? No fucking way. Having a few bank accounts and half a dozen CCs is always a good idea moving fiat around - from Wise to a CC to a bank acc, and back to another CC and back to buying stablecoins or stock only to sell it again after a few hours. Concerning your first paragraph - just stay below the treshold, apart from that I still don't believe they report any of this or do you have a source for that claim?

kipha01

I was pointing out how dumb it would be to take a lump sum and end up paying all that in tax, I guess that went over your head. I will of course minimize tax where possible leveraging things like CGT allowances etc. I am not using BTC to buy coffee I am using my coffee fund to DCA BTC.

UltraSBM

UK government state that only transacting in GBP does not attract any capital gains on forex. Any other currency is fair game. Whether it’s EUR, USD, or BTC. Buggers. Buy BTC with GBP, hodl, sell for GBP. CGT.

Due-Candy-8929

Alts are going to out perform - better to bring in new money and not take the exchange fees buying and selling… also depending on how long you have held tax wise you might benefit ( for me if I hold a year I get a 50% CGT tax discount…)

CorrectTadpole9997

First comment to hint at CGT factor! Makes shopping with btc less fun sounding.

kipha01

So I sold a bunch of coin that was down for some other coin that was down more to harvest the loss of the first coin so when it comes to tax time I have more CGT allowance. Hopefully that works out and the second goes higher X SEI to BONK

233mhz

Tax free accounts. In case you are not involved in a boat accident you should pay CGT on BTC

dormango

Not sure using BTC as treasury is for everyone. It depends how much surplus cash a company has and when they may need to use it. You can’t deny it is still too volatile for many firms, especially if it may be required short term. And how are you going to mitigate CGT on gains? Maybe not so much of an issue in Dubai though. You may be better off looking at the presentation of the CEO of Steak n Shake to see how you can sell the BTC idea to the firm. It brought in more customers and reduced payment processing costs.

TheDickDog

Aimed at consumer protection 🤣🤣🤣 more like aimed at taking it away with CGT. The UK doesn't care how it's citizens spend their money. They only care how they can charge them through the arse for doing so. F your CGT F your plans for CBDCs

suspended_008

The ATO will never give up it's CGT on Bitcoin. Better to just move overseas before $10M+ per BTC.

Dettol-tasting-menu

You see, that’s the problem with ETFs like IBIT. They are not redeemable in Bitcoin, at least not the ones currently issued in the US. You will have to sell your IBIT shares, potentially pay your CGT, and then buy real Bitcoin with the proceed and hodl real BTC in your wallet. If you think about self sovereignty and freedom in any way, it pays to do the switch early. Your incentive to do it later will be greatly diminished after some good price appreciation (coz of tax). The longer you wait, the more likely you’ll be stuck forever. As for cold wallet, they are all actually very user friendly. Plenty of material and tutorials on how to safekeep your own bitcoin. I have used many over the years and any reputable brand (Trezor, Coldcard, Jade, BitBox) is good. Holding real bitcoin is the true self sovereign way of managing your life. You will feel you’re truly in control and that feeling is pretty magical. I remember when I first move my sats to my first wallet, the sense of freedom and independence was quite intense. Something you won’t feel looking at a brokerage account.

puref8

See with btc you can move or retire in a country with zero tax on crypto or CGT and sell to keep everything. Let's see you try and take 2 or 3 million dollars on board and aeroplane and try to leave the country. Where as a ledger looks like a USB. Or a piece of paper.

Shaykh_Hadi

What profits? Just keep holding until there is a Bitcoin standard and no CGT on Bitcoin or move countries to where there is no CGT (eg Jersey or Dubai). The future is Bitcoin. You’re not holding for short term profits. You’re holding for generational wealth.

Key-Jacket854

This is what I have been looking for. If you run the hypothetical that crypto is considered cash or currency, not a CGT asset, then what other tax could apply.

FrogLickr

I'm Australian. This country would rather see every single one of its citizens die horrific, painful deaths than ever repeal a tax. This country has such strict rules and zero tolerance toward almost everything precisely because the government is utterly addicted to the revenue the slight mistakes people make in everyday life generates the country. CGT will never not be applicable to crypto.

Acceptable_Hand8622

Wait till start of next financial year before you sell IP. You will then have 12 months before you have to pay the CGT. Then you could take some BTC out to pay the CGT once BTC has gone up. More CGT when you cash out som BTC. That’s how it works in Australia. Our FY starts in July. Yours is October though. Can you afford to wait? Maybe take a loan out using property as collateral if you can’t. Just ideas, not FA.

True-Lychee

Damn, the CGT bill on that is gonna hu—uh, carry on

Sandhurts4

This is interesting (straight from the ATO website). A capital gain on the disposal of a crypto asset is exempt from CGT if: * it is a personal use asset * you acquire it for less than $10,000. [Crypto asset as a personal use asset | Australian Taxation Office](https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/investments-and-assets/crypto-asset-investments/crypto-asset-as-a-personal-use-asset)

lechuckswrinklybutt

If you were a tax resident in Germany but you were a US citizen, wouldn't Uncle Sam still come after you for CGT?

mr_flibble_oz

Australia possibly about to declare Bitcoin as currency and therefore exempt from CGT

ODABBOTT

Literally from the link you shared “Example: crypto asset for personal use held for short period Michael wants to attend a concert. The concert provider offers tickets with a discount on the price for payments made in crypto. Michael pays $270 to buy crypto assets, which he then uses to pay for the tickets on the same day. Under these circumstances, Michael acquires and uses the crypto assets in a short period of time to buy personal items. As such, the crypto assets are personal use assets.” I.e. if you bought bitcoin to spend it then you don’t pay CGT, it’s a personal use asset. That being said, you can’t buy bitcoin, hold it for a few years as it appreciates then decide to spend it and claim it as personal use asset, so maybe that’s where the confusion is coming from.

Purple_Mo

If you are actively trading rather than using as investment - I think it might be considered under income tax rules But generally CGT does not apply to things other than houses

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; A recent Australian court ruling could lead to up to $640 million in Bitcoin tax refunds. Judge Michael O’Connell classified Bitcoin as money rather than property, challenging the Australian Taxation Office's stance that treats cryptocurrencies as taxable CGT assets. If upheld, this decision may exempt Bitcoin transactions from CGT, potentially resulting in significant tax refunds and altering how Bitcoin is taxed in Australia. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

slvbtc

All a country has to do is carve out a deminimus exemption when using bitcoin. For example if you spend less than $5k worth of bitcoin then there is no capital gains tax. This allows governments to continue to tax those that cash out large amounts of bitcoin while allowing for frictionless every day use as a payments technology. There will be three types of governments. 1) those who do not tax capital gains at all by default (think singapore or dubai) 2) those who carve out a deminimus exemption making every day payments free from capital gains tax. 3) those that are so tax hungry and greedy that they keep imposing CGT on every single transaction no matter how small until their citizens end up completely disconnected from the lightning based global financial payments system.

Acceptable_Hand8622

1. Just received my cold wallet, easy to use and wallet is only used if I am moving crypto off my cold wallet. Only interested in BTC. Starting to stack every day until I’m all in and then maybe some from redraw. I wouldn’t trust this on exchange or hot wallet that can be hacked. 2. For your employment, do you pay tax? If you bought and sold an IP you would pay CGT. For BTC, you’re not paying in USA or Australia where I am until you sell. While there are ways around CGT ( comes up here regularly) why bother with the extra hassle and risk of imprisonment if you are caught. Also do you think a crypto lawyer will help you if you fight an exchange and help you to avoid tax. Long term investment, if you 10x and pay 15% CGT, you are still up 8.5x *just pay the tax IMO*. Also you have other investments, if you lose on them, they will be subtracted from your gain if in the same year or carried forward from previous years. Additionally if you think like most here, you will only be changing to fiat in small crumbs to buy that car or holiday, leave the rest in BTC to keep growing. You’re only paying CGT on the crumbs so CGT isn’t that big an issue. Definitely cold wallet and pay the cgt. HODL and never sell it all, only crumbs.

Motor_Palpitation_40

Whisper: Namibia. No CGT.

Centmo

Would still owe CGT on the appreciation up to the day you leave.

FGX302

Maybe in the US, in Australia you can have Bitcoin as an asset which will attract CGT and you can have it as a personal asset that doesn't attract GST and you can use it just like cash.

No-Wallaby-2986

If I put my pension into a SIPP ( self invested pension plan) I can't buy Bitcoin. I can buy MSTR. If I use my £20k Stocks and Shares ISA (no CGT on gains) same story. It's a way of getting Bitcoin if you can't buy Bitcoin

felidae_tsk

Forex is taxed as income which may be even more than CGT

foulminion

>I wouldn’t want to deal with the tax issues if I could avoid it. Just need to stay 100% in fiat. Never need to bother with CGT again.

Interesting_Loss_907

Transferring BTC is **not** “selling”. Where did you get that idea? If you exchange your coin for an alt or to another currency, or if you spend your BTC, that’s a sale & you’ll owe CGT if you sold for a gain. But transferring from one wallet to another is not selling.

FGX302

You need 2 separate accounts/storage so you can treat one as a capital gains taxable asset and the other as personal use asset. This is possible in Australia so you don't have to calculate CGT when you use it for day to day spending. Check your local laws.

RefrigeratorLow1259

CGT is payable at 18% on gains over £3000 , used to be over £10,000 @ 10%. Welcome to Liebour Gov! 🙄

MiceAreTiny

Decent. Solid. Not flashy. No CGT after 1 year. Excellent. 

JashBeep

From the link I provided: >A crypto asset (such as Bitcoin, a cryptocurrency) is a [personal use asset](https://www.ato.gov.au/Individuals/Capital-gains-tax/List-of-CGT-assets-and-exemptions#ato-Personaluseassets) if you keep or use it **mainly** for personal use, for example, to buy items for personal use or consumption. **The relevant time for determining if a crypto asset is a personal use asset is when you dispose of it**

JashBeep

>The best way to interpret this tax guidance is if you bought bitcoin and held it for less than one month and then spent it you can claim it was a personal use asset. But if you bought bitcoin and held it for more than one month it is not longer a personal use asset and it is now considered an investment subject to regular capital gains tax. Man, it must be a cold day in hell if u/slvbtc is out here doing the Australian tax man's work, making rulings. >So you are saying I can buy bitcoin in 2015, enjoy a decade of capital appreciation and then pay zero tax so long as I use that bitcoin to buy every day items like burgers? Sorry no, thats not how that works. That is not what I am saying. That is a strawman. Once again, I suggest re-reading this thread. Someone said "no CGT for personal use" and someone replied with the least relevant tax recommendation. I just matched their obnoxious energy ("wrong") and provided the most relevant link. I'll try and give some genuine insight as to the state of things here as best I understand it. Disclaimer that I'm not a lawyer. 2014 the ATO released guidance about crypto. They did this within existing laws and not in response to a new parliamentary Act. The ATO is not able to invent laws or taxes but it does have the authority to make [public rulings](https://www.ato.gov.au/about-ato/ato-advice-and-guidance/ato-advice-products-rulings/public-rulings) and [private rulings](https://www.ato.gov.au/about-ato/ato-advice-and-guidance/ato-advice-products-rulings/private-rulings) which are interpretations of law as it applies to common or specific circumstances. And there is an [appeals process](https://www.ato.gov.au/individuals-and-families/your-tax-return/if-you-disagree-with-an-ato-decision/seek-an-external-review-of-ato-decisions/federal-court). In response to the 2017 run up, the ATO stepped up their tax collection efforts with data harvesting, forcing exchanges to send information directly to the ATO showing activity against TFNs. To the best of my knowledge there no Act (law) that specifically addresses crypto or bitcoin post its inception, 2009. There was a bill (draft law) called 'Digital Assets (Market Regulation) Bill 2023' but it was rejected by the Senate. But there are several laws that can be interpreted to impact "the crypto industry" and there may also be amendments to Acts that I'm not aware of. I'm of the impression that government still wants to do something in this space, it's just not a priority. The reason I point this out is because of the apparent ambiguity in the ATO links for our burgers situation. Despite these pages having a 'last updated' date of 2023 or something, I think they have been largely unchanged since inception, sometime between 2014 and 2019. You could check the wayback machine if you're curious, but that's beyond my interests. At this point in time it would probably be helpful if the ATO added an example that specifically addressed the burgers example. They may be unwilling or unable to do that because of political reasons (draft laws or party policies, stuff in the works, basically). But as I said earlier, you can always contact the ATO and ask for specific guidance for your circumstances. There's no need for you or I to make decisions except to challenge the ATO if they make a bad ruling or overstep.

slvbtc

So you are saying I can buy bitcoin in 2015, enjoy a decade of capital appreciation and then pay zero tax so long as I use that bitcoin to buy every day items like burgers? Sorry no, thats not how that works. Personal use asset has nothing to do with what you buy with your bitcoin, it has everything to do with why you bought the bitcoin in the first place. You cannot claim its a personal use asset and ignore capital gains tax just because you buy small items. The only time bitcoin is considered a personal use asset is if you purchased your bitcoin specifically for the purpose of buying something that is for sale for bitcoin. This means by definition if you hold the bitcoin for any extended amount of time then it is no longer a personal use asset. If the australian tax authority wanted to make small transactions not subject to capital gains tax they would carve out a deminimus exemption and specifically state for example any transaction under 10k is exempt from CGT.

JashBeep

First, within the context of this thread, u/jonnytitanx linked the wrong tax recommendation when u/Makunouchiipp0 specifically said "Small personal transactions don't attract CGT". Most likely u/jonnytitanx didn't know about the personal use exemption. So my correction stands plainly there. Second, more broadly in this post we are discussing the idea of whether CGT applies to the purchase of a burger. You are of course welcome to your interpretation of that link, but I think you might lack a more broad understanding of Australian taxation so I'll explain my interpretation. The purchase of a burger is at the extreme end of 'personal use' and is very far from 'an investment', 'a profit-making scheme' or 'carrying out a business'. As further evidence, here we would be purchasing the burger using the lightning network. Lightning is specifically for small and high frequency transactions, and the normal practice is to periodically top up your lightning wallet. So I believe a 'reasonable person' could safely assume that using a lightning wallet in the typical way to make small purchases of things like burgers would not attract a CGT. You can contact the ATO and ask for specific guidance if you like.

FGX302

In Australia if you use Bitcoin to just buy things, you can call it a personal use asset and it doesn't attract capital gains tax. For a clearer definition Google it but yeah, studies can have personal use crypto and investment crypto. One attracts CGT the other doesn't.

slvbtc

I suppose you get accused of tax fraud, then pay fines until you can come up with all the required transaction details, records and CGT calculations for every single $7 burger you ever bought.

slvbtc

The IRS doesnt have to prove anything. YOU have to prove there was no capital gain, and the only way to do that is to have records and CGT calculations of all your transactions proving there was no gain by showing they incurred a capital loss.

Makunouchiipp0

There’s no argument to be had. Small personal transactions don’t attract CGT.

sushnagege

Technically possible, but be careful. If you gift the crypto to your dad, he inherits your original cost basis, so federal capital gains tax still applies when he sells. You might dodge your state’s extra CGT if he’s in a no-tax state, but that’s a grey area. Your state could try to claw it back if they think it’s a tax avoidance scheme. Also, gifting a house back to you triggers gift tax reporting (over $18k = Form 709), even if no tax is owed due to lifetime exemption. And if you ever sell the house, you’d inherit his cost basis (aka your original crypto basis), so any gains would catch up to you later. Plan sounds clever, but could raise flags. Talk to a tax pro if you’re serious — especially since you’re planning to leverage it and re-enter the market.

uniqueheadshape

Yeah it is annoying. What do you think is the viable approach? One stack your long term stack which you keep records for and the other for spending? The issue they use the FIFO method when it comes to CGT. So I \*think\* if you buy and then spend BTC it will be based on your first buy which could trigger capital gains tax. I don't know it is confusing as hell and annoying tbh. The only other way I could think of doing it is doing the lightning wallet under my wife's name to make it easier? I don't know.

incomingone

Definitely a possible path. I'll have to pay CGT at some point though unless I never sell any BTC again. I don't want the hassle and fees of a mortgage, even if it means that in the end I have less money.

banu_musa

Wow congrats to you! I guess that takes the pressure off a big decision like this if you have plenty of BTC kicking about afterwards too. Can I ask how you feel about giving 24% to the tax man? I’m in a similar position to you and seriously considering leaving my job so that I don’t have an income above the £12,500 threshold and therefore only pay 18% CGT. For you if you’re taking out £1mil that’s £60k you’re not giving to the government if you’re not earning from income

incomingone

Cheers mate. No CGT? Sounds like I should have moved there lol :P

sackot

Thanks. You're right, it might actually have been easier if it had been on the radar with CGT, but I live on the Isle of Man where we don't have that. It does have the advantage the retailers can accept BTC without involving the customer in accounting issues, though. Anyway, hope it goes well for you a second time.

incomingone

I am pretty sure you would be fine in you can show you've held it for a long time. blockchain to the rescue there. And you still have your private keys for signing for proof etc. No one can argue with the 2011 date. If you have sold any hopefully you've paid any CGT etc. I think you'd be OK - it's more unexplained crypto acquired more recently I should think that might raise doubts. In my case I stated I'd acquired BTC and disposed of some on my self assessment to HMRC when I started doing it.

Fantastic_Sign3406

Congratulations! Most people wish to be further away from family. You are fortunate in many ways. You can always offset some of that CGT by starting the new Pineapple Fund 2025. Let me know when to apply. 😉

incomingone

Have to pay CGT at some point, unless never sell it ever in which case might as well not have it. Sure BTC might be 10x in a1 few years, but I have a big portion of BTC left over anyway.

incomingone

Yep 24% CGT. Stamp duty won't be fun either. But gotta move close to family so it is what it is.

Wrong-Put

Do what's right for you, but taxes are gonna kill you. CGT and stamp duty. You are also losing out on the value opportunity of bitcoin appreciation, not to mention if you took out a mortgage and invested the remaining amount $STRK or $STRF depending on risk appetite. Even an S&P tracker should get you a higher return than the mortgage rate.

Hypno_Hamster

The value of the staking rewards at the point of receipt is the income value... "income" meaning earned money. If you realise the gain later then that income counts as part of your investment, then you pay CGT on the total value. It's really not that complicated. Tracking it is the complicated part but I use automated tools for that.

Infections95

If you've staked instantly then sure. If you have realised gains then you pay CGT on it when staking. Also depending upon how you stake depends on tax. There's tonnes of issues with the system. If you think it's that easy you've probably done something wrong.

harrysnow81

Selling 3% annually is literally all you have to do. Borrowing against is a nightmare of a strategy lol. Not only do you have to pay the interest, but you still have to pay back the loan you took. How would I pay that if I retired solely off of bitcoin? I'd still have to sell to pay it back unless I had multiple streams of income. Then you have the issue of legitimate banks that will borrow your bitcoin and not screw you over. Im aware that rich people do this but im not jeff bezos lol. It's much simpler for me to just sell 0.80 quarterly and pay the CGT. Just give the govt their damn money and let me live in peace 😔. After years of working in corporate idk if I want to be pulling financial strings just to avoid paying some sort of tax. I'm lazy now, imagine when I'm 40 lol

FuzzyFox1

I’d start with not asking randoms off Reddit. Move somewhere without CGT for the required length of time. And wouldn’t the world be a better place if financial advisors existed?!

MotherAd1074

You don't have to over collatorise with double. 133-150% is sufficient. Also, depending on your country, selling may trigger a CGT event. Assuming your country charges 33%, you would only receive 2/3 if the price. Instead, you could use that as CGT amount as collateral. And if the price goes up double, you can withdraw a 1/2 a bitcoin.

jeffereeee

"In the UK, the Starmer government has come under pressure from within the Labour party to take a tougher line. In 2023, MPs on an all-party parliamentary committee urged ministers to treat retail investment in cryptocurrencies such as bitcoin as a form of gambling." This pisses me off, a form of gambling? Yet HMRC are happy to collect CGT on Bitcoin.

PrismPirate

I'm looking forward to being able to get CGT free DeFi loans backed by btc. I can't imagine I'm the only one.

TheBoneIdler

No capital gains tax as no capital gain (i.e. nothing sold). If he does ever recover the BTC & start selling then huge gains over the years & mucho STG payable in CGT. A first world problem....

EmuSea4963

They already jacked up capital gains tax and lowered the yearly CGT allowance. If Bitcoin moons, the gov is definitely taking their slice.

Strong_Judge_3730

Don't, this is stupid any lender will require you to put your btc in a margin account where it may be liquidated. You are essentially giving away your btc to someone and trusting they don't steal it so you can leverage it The best you could do is use a smart contract like wraped btc on MakerDAO. However converting to wraped btc would be a CGT event and you are still vulnerable to protocol manipulation and bugs. Defi is more centralised than BTC so is more likely to have shenanigans

usx-tv

UK here Crypto falls under CGT. Staking rewards fall under income. Altcoins are much higher risk than bitcoin. If holding 250 of bitcoin makes you uneasy, don’t even look into them. You need to study bitcoin to really understand it. Understand how it works, from an economical perspective is enough if you don’t want to dive into the tech. Start by reading “the Bitcoin standard” and move on from there, to understand why some, like myself, have most of their net worth in bitcoin.

Shaykh_Hadi

Just CGT. Bitcoin is zero risk longterm so I’d say there’s no reason to be hesitant. Buy Bitcoin, not crypto. The risk of Bitcoin disappearing is ZERO. It will always go up over a long time span.

rjm101

From what I understand Thailand has 15% CGT on crypto so it shouldn't be on the list.

NOmakesmehard

you will still be liable for CGT upon your return to the UK if the period abroad was less than five years: https://www.gov.uk/tax-return-uk

Life-Duty-965

Note that this is from the German point of view. Your own gov may have other ideas. A British citizen would still owe HMRC CGT if they loved on Germany for a year and sold.

JamesScotlandBruce

This is the bit from that article that applies to our scenario I think. Part 2. 2. Tax when principal tokens loaned out You may find that capital gains tax applies when entering and exiting a lending position. The capital gains tax position of the principal tokens locked away/loaned out needs to be considered: at the time of loaning out your cryptoassets and at the time of receiving the repayment of your cryptoassets HMRC may consider these events a taxable disposal, subject to CGT if beneficial ownership of the tokens locked away/loaned out have been transferred to another party. Where there is no transfer of beneficial ownership There is no disposal for capital gains tax purposes upon entering or exiting the yield generating activity. The reward is subject to tax when received, depending on whether it is income or capital in nature as previously explained. Where there is a transfer of beneficial ownership When a transfer of beneficial ownership occurs, there is a disposal for CGT purposes. The tax treatment differs depending on whether the reward is capital or income in nature - please refer to our [technical tax guide] for all possible scenarios. Beneficial ownership Beneficial ownership It will be the responsibility of the taxpayer to decide whether or not beneficial ownership has been transferred, yet this is a complex legal matter with very little in the way of supporting guidance and examples from HMRC. It is recommended that professional, legal and tax advice is sought regarding your specific circumstances.

Conscious-Drawer-137

I think this article refers to staking crypto? It refers to CGT but that would only apply if you sell BTC….

slvbtc

Logging a transaction as a capital loss is still adding to the record keeping burden. What this type taxation regime means is bitcoin activity will stagnate while in jurisdictions where there is no CGT bitcoin activity will proliferate and flouish. Now replace the word bitcoin with finance and its easy to see that taxing bitcoin usage will turn some countries into financial backwaters while countries that do not tax bitcoin will become the financial hubs of the future. Dubai and Singapore do not have CGT therefore they do not tax bitcoin usage at all by default meaning they will become the worlds future financial hubs while places like london and new york become the stagnant financial backwaters of the world.

Life-Duty-965

What's the point of you don't sell it The narrative around never selling is crazy If we all held until retirement and then suddenly flipped from $100s buys to $1000 sells it doesn't take a genius to predict the market quickly plummeting. If 10% of the community start selling for 10x what they were buying at, you've flipped the market. Only 10%. We all need to sell The question is when... The people who won't come out with a share are the ones who are fully FOMOd in. But you can't think about what you might miss. That's how you lose this game. I'm one of those annoying accidental early buyers and I just sell my CGT free allowance each year (UK, £3k) and will do so until I die or it blows up. BTC isn't making any of us millionaires lol Getting out on top makes you a winner. Maybe not the biggest winner. But most people are going to be losers so you're good.

Life-Duty-965

It could be any price. Why not make it 100m! The same people would buy some each month regardless. DCA locked in, spare money goes into the system. No one cares if they get back 0.001 or 0001. As long as you keep stacking, right? Higher price means you get less, but you're really happy about it. The system works because enough people have been convinced not to sell. This all changes when the community stops working. They put on 100s and they want 1000s back each month The market dynamics is now flipped. Every person who flips needs 10? Or 100? Or 1000? People to replace them. People aren't getting richer so the only way you can replace yourself as a buyer, and cash out, is to find many more people like you. If you do that maths, you actually only need maybe 10% of the regular buyers to switch before the market dynamics are such that more money is wanted out than going in. The second that happens, price collapses as everyone desperately tries to get some of their life savings out. I don't think bitcoin will "die" but price will collapse and a generation of retirees are going to spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince people to pay the prices they did, and more. So yeah, for now, whilst everyone agrees not to sell, the price can absolutely keep going up and up But eventually, y'all gonna want to see that return. Who's gonna blink first!? As a 2014 incidental buyer, I just sell my tax free allowance each year (£3k CGT free in the UK). I'll keep doing that, possibly for the rest of my life and today's prices.... But I'm not going to plan my future around it lol

SHIBA_INU_PROPHET

Sorry for your loss fren. There are capital gains benefits in Aus if you hold your crypto assets for 12 months (50% reduction on 50% CGT). Would be similar in most Western countries I'd imagine.

Miserable-Dot9348

Transfer to your mums, if you’re able to talk your accountant/mums accountant to see if it’s liable for any CGT when transferring over. If not it should be fine, it’s better to have in her account so she has control.

ManlyAndWise

Half serious answer: wait for BTC to 20x. At that point you will have a nice stash and you will be able to pick a country with low or zero CGT. Last time I looked, Luxembourg (a somewhat sleepy, but very beautiful Central European Country) will likely give you a Visa with great enthusiasm. Calculate with EUR10k per one square meter. Your around EUR 2.2m will buy you a nice 70SQ flat with close to EUR700k, and you will be able to easily spend 3 or 4% of the remaining yearly as you enjoy the constant appreciation of your savings, so you get richer, not poorer, with the time. of course, this requires being able ot wait for the 20x, but you get the drift...

ManlyAndWise

Don't they have a CGT of 28%. I understand real estate will be cheap, but OP will end up paying taxes again and again...

Inevitable_Data_84

At the point of retirement I wouldn't have bought Bitcoin for a year (maybe). In Australia there's a 50% discount on CGT if you hold for > 1 year. Currently our capital gains can be determined by FIFO OR DCA to calculate liability on tax here as long as there is a reasonable methodology to your calcs. Tax is a nightmare when it comes to this but I haven't sold yet

The-maulted-One

Different time with different metrics, sell your bitcoin & pay 30% CGT, you ain’t buying back in.

BitcoinMaxiBurger

I am not selling until they got rid of CGT for BTC in my country.

Aussiehash

It's up to you, would will have to pay 25% CGT.

BitcoinMaxiBurger

Biggest problems: Usability and Legislation Imagine if banks can hold your Bitcoin for you. And there are legislations to treat it as currency (no CGT) and there is a FDIC deposit guarantee. Bitcoin use will skyrocket as consumers can now use it on a daily basis with tap and go and have reassurance from losing it. That scenario requires multiple legislations and institutional adoption. We are getting there, i think.

Dettol-tasting-menu

It’s pretty simple If your tv costed you 1 million sats ($1,000 in today’s price) And you first bought this 1m sats for $300, then you made $700 capital gains on it. And you need to pay tax on the $700. ($700 x your tax rate) This sounds like a shitty deal (it is, hopefully one day the bitcoin CGT will be abolished), but even including the tax, you’re still coming out ahead. Say you pay $200 tax on the $700 gains, you still got yourself a $1,000 tv for $300 (purchase outlay) +$200 (tax) =$500. Your tv is half price. After a cycle or two, everything you buy with bitcoin will be on huge discount.

redeembtc

>Seems highly unlikely BTC will be completely tax-free. USA or elsewhere There are already currently countries that don't tax CGT on profits on Bitcoin.

Adorable_Exchange223

I think the marginal use case would be something like, say you need 20k for a new kitchen. Your options are: \- borrow cash unsecured at 11% \- or sell some of your BTC, take a CGT hit, and miss out on any future gains. If you can borrow against your bitcoin, even at some rip-off rate like 9%, but you think that BTC is going to the moon in the next year, then this might be worth it. But you'd probably be better off putting your spending onto a 0% credit card and saving cash that way.

CiaranCarroll

\> infinity Nothing goes to infinity. It'll be like today but no state can print the denominator. You will have to spend Bitcoin in order to eat and live and work somewhere, you can't eat it. So it will get deposited in distributed or single signature wallets as collateral for debt, and you'll spend the currency you borrowed. Maybe the currency you borrowed is a cryptocurrency, or a traditional fiat currency. But maybe states become so weak relative to their constituent parts that they give up on fiat and make Bitcoin legal tender so you don't pay any CGT when you spend it. Either way you have to give it to someone else, either permanently or temporarily, in order to buy things that you need to live. The fact that you won't do that until the price offered for it is very high gives it value. People who have more of it will be considered rich, but if those rich people offer nothing to the market or society they won't be able to keep it. I think you're questions are very confused. Think slower.

otherwayup

Another thing worth considering if you don't want to cash in yet, is to swap to wrapped tokens to make use of this year's 3k CGT allowance. Eg: swap BTC for WBTC; this counts as a disposal of BTC. Then as long as you wait a month (just like shares), you can swap back again if you want/need to (which would be a disposal of WBTC).

Intrepid_Guidance_57

As long as your sending to a wallet you own you haven’t sold which would incur CGT. You’re all good my friend, get that BTC off of Coinbase now!! It’s not yours until you do it.

GiverTakerMaker

Something that a lot of folks are ignoring is that a some of these big OTC trades are moving bitcoin from the fat wallets of whales into the corporate coffers of companies controlled by those whales. I expect the CEO/whale then gets to charge the company a massive consultancy fee/ trade facilitation fee. They avoid CGT and get to "legitimise" their bitcoin and they get paid to do it. And it prevents too much pressure on the market. The futures market allows significant price manipulation at the moment since there is such a small amount of bitcoin in actual circulation. Constant front running of big trades by insiders is going to extract a lot of liquidity from the market which further suppresses the price. Plus I would expect there are plenty of ways sophisticated insiders can arvitrage different plays, microstrategy, ETFs, spot, futures ... for profit. Again extracting value from other market participants... If you don't want to get screwed, take your coins off the market.

GiverTakerMaker

Tldr: it is easier said than done. 1. There is a spread between buy /sell offers on the exchange and larger orders will be competing to HFT bots for liquidity. 2. The exchange is charging a fee on your orders. Use limit orders they often have lower fees. 3. Most likely this is a KYC exchange so you will be hit for CGT. 4. Lastly, sooner or later the market will aggressively and there is a good chance you will be on the wrong side of the trade. A good strategy is to use multiple exchanges and to simultaneously place buy/sell orders. Indeed many exchanges even offer bot trading products to do automated grid trading. To execute this exact strategy. All those things eat into the profit. But yes, you can do it. It is called spot trading. Do the math first to figure out what size move in price is necessary for you to make a profit worth the effort.

doyzer9

UK tax man only wants to know if you sell £50k crypto in a tax year, or make more than £3k crypto profit in a tax year. No one cares how many times you move it. Only when you sell or convert it. UK CGT is 18% based rate & 24% HR, used to be 6k tax free, but labour halved it last year. 🤔🤔🤔

No_Leather_3676

BTC isn’t viable as anything but a store of value now and people saying with hindsight how it was always the only choice, it more than halved in the last bear market! Well done to people who thought that was a great purchase opportunity. The advice I saw was always to look at what had real world use and actual value, not just what was a trend. XRP filled that for me and not BTC. I don’t see the recent changes being any different going forward. If you’ve got BTC then it would be wise to jump ship to XRP. Especially when you ask yourself. What does BTC do that gold doesn’t? Then consider that you don’t pay CGT on gold. Good luck to everyone, whatever you’re holding, flipping, or hustling.

sherbert141

I feel like the point getting lost here is that Bitcoins price is not a set thing determined by some governing body, just like many things we buy (cars, houses, eggs, pet llamas, etc.). The key is that the price was agreed upon by the buyer and the seller, and that’s what the IRS cares about. The person paying the debt is likely the one who owes more to the IRS depending on when they bought that bitcoin, because this counts as a sale and subject to CGT.

BitcoinMaxiBurger

and this is the exact reason why BTC will not be an everyday currency. It is not BTC’s fault, but as long as every transfer is treated as a CGT event, everyday adoption will be hard.

redeembtc

Why would you do that for a less than a measly $1.5K gain, before taxes and fees? And resting the 59% CGT discount in the process?