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UK ISA / SIPP - my findings on how to get proper Bitcoin exposure
trading212 restricted from buyin $IBIT. Help a UK stacker
Micro strategy is a great play - but mainly for UK investors....prove me wrong
MEXC (non-KYC exchange) is apparently no longer providing services to the USA
Crypto entrepreneur faces potential prosecution in Israel related to $290M scam: Report
UK residents, how do you "avoid" paying taxes on crypto gains using legal avenues?
So you work all your life pay taxes save up like a good boy follow all the rules and then get sick and you can’t cash your ISA in as it’s fixed. Even worse you die and the big institutions don’t allow access to your loved ones.
Crypto Stocks vs Cryptocurrency: Which is Better for Tax Efficiency and Gains?
How are we feeling about crypto? Compared to shares it’s not too bad really.
To the parents on this sub, do you invest into crypto for your kids?
The Debate on Crypto Stocks vs Cryptocurrency: Which is the Better Option for Tax Efficiency?
if I'm an 18 year old and have $5k in savings, is BTC a good place to start making an account of money for my future?
Blended Investors: What % of your Investment Portfolio Do You Put Into Crypto? (Moderate Risk Profile)
Crypto withdrawals into Stocks and Shares ISA.
Mentions
Nice, one of the few BTC related investments I seem to be allowed to hold in a tax advantaged ISA in the UK, so will look into whether they are a good buy.
I can second the kraken pro ability to do it. It can be done there. I put a small amount in to try it out and lost it all pretty quickly so it put me off. I also thought we weren't meant to be able in the UK and if that is correct then it might be a bit of a worry if you do well and then cash out and HMRC learn about it at tax time. Miners might also offer a little bit of leveraged gains. I'm not expert at all. Just recently been thinking about BTC and my ISA. To that end I bought some coinbase, Mstr and some clearspark shares to test the water.
That's not the right question the question should be what percentage is in Fiat and the answer should be loooowww... I keep 3 months income of cash available... every other penny is somewhere else... If I need money in a pinch I have Credit cards with at least another 9 months worth of income on their limit... this is plenty of time to move money around wherever I get a good price... whether thats ISA's, Gold, BTC... and pay off the credit...
tldr; Andreessen Horowitz (a16z) has released an open-source code for 'Jolt,' a zero-knowledge virtual machine (zkVM), marking its venture into deep tech research. Jolt aims to enhance blockchain scalability and privacy through cryptographic techniques, supporting RISC-V ISA and Rust programming language applications. It claims to be significantly faster than its nearest competitor, RISC Zero. While not specifically designed for Ethereum, a16z believes Jolt can improve zkEVMs and other blockchain applications. The firm's move into tech development is part of its strategy to contribute to the crypto space's advancement while maintaining its role as a leading investor. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.
My ISA provider has 2 blockchain ETFs. One has a large allocation to COIN.
MSTR in the ISA, pure form Bitcoin and wait for the financial services to mature around borrowing against at a reasonable LTValue. Miners present unnecessary additional risk and uncertainty consider mstr is a leveraged position. Coinbase will underperform mstr as they use convertible debt to buy dogshit. Alternatively buy bitcoin and just leave the UK.
Balls on this one, fair play. A more cautious person would diversify at least a coin or two (presuming not at a loss) in a stocks and shares ISA/investment account though just as a hedge. This is literally all your eggs and more in one single investment option
Ok thanks. MSTR I could have figured out, but didn't know the abbreviation. ISA is out of my jurisdiction. Anyway, holding shares of a company holding bitcoin doesn't make you owning bitcoin. Still 80% for me
MSTR - Microstrategy - owns over 1% of all Bitcoin that will ever exist. ISA - tax free wrapper for holding cash and investments in UK
I have no idea what MSTR and ISA are. So from my point of view, you have 80% of a coin and other things.
It’s in an ISA which is a tax free account in the UK. So no tax if I sell. On the other hand I would be obligated to pay tax if I sell my BTC. Which I don’t intend on doing in any case.
The MSTR in an ISA was originally ring fenced in case of a family/financial emergency which fortunately never transpired. Otherwise I would have put it into Bitcoin. But now it’s still there, the tax efficiency of it being in an ISA has become more appealing. The other issue with my cold storage is training up the wife to being able to access my cold storage. She’s not exactly interested and a bit of a technophobe so it’s a concern if I was to get hit by a bus tomorrow my coins are potentially lost. Current plan is to avoid busses and do a detailed video guide on using Bitcoin. Other issues around my cold storage BTC is that less than half is KYC. So not sure how easy the larger portion will be to off ramp… certainly not a straight forward estate planning situation
Studies have repeatedly demonstrated that DCA produces inferior results to lump sum investing. There are COUNTLESS papers on this and this is well understood in financially literate circles. That I got -3 while you got 26 shows that people around here are just financially illiterate FOMOers that don't even have a trading account or ISA/roth.
If you’re freaking out when Bitcoin is up 46% ytd then this probably isn’t for you. Get an ISA instead.
this was exactly my idea! it’s a great way for exposure to Bitcoin in an ISA without access to an ETF. Seriously though, the govt. needs to speed up a little. I feel like we’re ten steps behind the rest of the world on every legislation
I hold MSTR in my stocks and shares ISA for the tax wrapped btc exposure. Aslong as our backwards government keeps shunning crypto ill keep up my DCA with MSTR
Yes but I don’t think there’s any ISA product here in the UK that has crypto in it yet. Once that day comes I’ll be moving everything over!
But dividends stocks in a tax free ISA shouldn't have these issues right?
Monzo have good to me so far but I dont expect it to last. Just started DCAing into MSTR via ISA now. Backwards country
UK would be an ISA. I never thought about buying a bitcoin ETF within a tax wrapper before. It’s a good one.
and we dont have to pay broker fees or tax when in a ISA 🍻🤣
However it would be interesting to buy additional Bitcoin, you will lose the £2,000 incentive if you withdraw from your Lifetime ISA. When making a decision, carefully consider the risks and your financial objectives.
You'll lose more than the 2k bonus because the penalty is 25% of everything inside the ISA. Don't do it. Especially if you're using the LISA to buy a house. Bitcoin may give you higher expected returns, but with the higher volatility, it's not worth risking your housing deposit. If you want, add new money from outside your LISA to bitcoin.
Everyone is different. I guess I'm speaking for me personally. I'd downsize, take the equity, buy a motorhome and tour the world in it. That's ultimately my plan. To retire at 50. All being well, my crypto portfolio, ISA, pension and equity from the sale of my home will be enough to retire on. I appreciate that not everyone wants to live like this. I was in London yesterday and I saw people in their 60s, possibly 70s suited and booted. I felt sad, I really hope that isn't me. I figured most people want to keep their family home, and have a lifestyle they aren't prepared to give up. The nice cars on finance, the big family home with just them and their partner rattling around in it. Each to their own but I think £1m is plenty.
I introduced my friend to crypto last cycle. He put all his ISA (UK savings) into alts near ath then sold near the bottom. I feel bad but he doesn't blame me.
I loaded up at £16,000 BTC and like you, ran out of money. I have 12 months savings, income insurance and continue to DCA into my ISA monthly before anyone thinks I'm over exposed.
As for buying Bitcoin with minimal fees: It depends on how you plan to custody it. If you don't mind a company doing it, I would recommend buying FBTC in an ISA. If you want to own your own Bitcoin, the on-chain fee might be problematic for self custody, nearing £8/transaction today. Withdrawal via Kraken's Lightning Network is fee-free, but I'm not familiar enough with Lightning security to know that's the ideal long-term solution. Keeping Bitcoin on exchanges is indeed risky: MtGox, FTX, QuadrigaCX, etc. all collapsed on people who kept their funds on the exchanges
HMRC is UK, right? Have you ever thought of investing in Microstrategy by way of a stocks and shares ISA?
Thank you. I'll need to have another look. I use HL for my regular investment ISA and saw the option for American stocks for regular investment but gave up and didn't pursue it at all. Cheers. I'll definitely need to have a proper look. Much appreciated. 👍
Can you buy microstrategy for an ISA? I thought US shares weren't allowed. I'd be so happy to be wrong?
You may want to take a look at buying some Microstrategy and putting it into an ISA or SIPP.
Many institutions, eg pension funds, cannot buy Bitcoin direct. We also cannot buy Bitcoin through a tax free ISA. If the UK had Bitcoin ETFs, we could put it in our pensions / ISA accounts. That’s not possible.
The advisor I spoke to was actually aware of Bitcoin at the time (September 2010), they went into many reasons why it was likely a scam and that I'd be better putting my money into bonds or an ISA. I'm actually annoyed by how much they discouraged me about it.
The fact the alternative was to invest in the bank lol. High fees and shit products. If not Bitcoin something like an ISA/Roth IRA with vanguard would have been the move. High street / commercial banking is arguably the worst possible decision (financially).
Cash out, world ETF in an S&S ISA (not sure what the equivalent is in the US). Pretty much a guaranteed 12% per year. In 20 years you're looking at around $100k, give or take (probably safer to assume anywhere between $80k - $120k.
Living with family still, not having a costly lifestyle, and just working a full time job and saving every paycheck. It's doable, just unlikely for a 20 year old as it implies little to no social life, which definitely cuts down costs. But at that age, I'd recommend putting the majority of it into an index fund, like the S&P500, and make sure its in a non taxable account (Roth IRA in US? Or stocks and shares ISA in the UK, or whatever your countries equivalent is) and just leave that for a few decades while topping it up with each paycheck. The remainder, bitcoin and maybe ETH, depending on your personal tastes
There is no tax if there are no gains. Also the CGT allowance is no longer £12.300. Based on your lack of knowledge, I'd recommend sticking to ISA.
Out of interest, why are you bothering with “stable” coins? I’d rather put my money into a stocks and shares ISA (uk) if I was interested in a steady growth like 10%
If you put 10k into these different things, then walked away and lived your life, with no time spent on it, or worrying about it, here is what you’d have: Bitcoin: 13k S&P 500: 11.2k FTSE global all cap: 11.4K MSFT: 14k And in most of these etf/shares, there was a massive drop in 2022… so these returns are much worse than other time periods. Given your post and stress, I’d very much suggest putting your money in a tax wrapper (ISA in UK, IRA in USA) and investing in some sensible funds, and just living your life again. I’ve more than doubled my money without doing ANY short term trading.
I don’t know- I have a buddy that works at a large financial institution in US and he said they were legit looking at XRP, I believe as an alternative for swift etc. but when the whole SEC thing started I think it got tabled and likely permanently but who knows. What I bought of it is so low vs what I paid figured I would let it ride and see.. however now I’m thinking exchange for BTC and count the loss on my 2024 taxes. I’m tired of alts minus ETH and not because it’s technology is best but like BTC has first mover advantage. Best tech doesn’t often win over adoption (Betamax vs VHS, micro channel vs ISA / EISA bus, etc. there have been many better technologies in my life that did not make it).
Buy MSTR in a stocks and shares ISA instead :)
HMRC don't want anyone putting crypto into an ISA think of the tax loss. It's one reason they are slashing capital gains allowance....suddenly the plebs are making use of it, and they can't have that!
UK capital gains allowance is about to drop to £3k. It used to be high enough that no one really worried because who makes a fiver figure gain these days lol Depending on your personal tax rate you then pay up to 20% Now it's £3k allowance people could have to pay some tax, but only if you actually make a gain lol You have to pay on every transaction. So if you bought at 10k and then merely moved it to another wallet when it was at 20k our government would see that as a £10k gain and tax would be due. £3k allowance so potentially £1400 (20% of 7k) to pay just for moving it! For traditional investments we are allowed to shield £20k from tax each year in an ISA, a tax free savings account. This is more than enough for normal people. I think I'll stick to that thanks.
Premium bond (I have above average luck) stocks (ISA) and Vanguard.
You can buy relevant shares (such as coinbase or microstrategy ) in ISA or SIPP for some tax free correlated growth but with actual crypto the CGT limit is a nuisance. Even if your gains are within the limit, you still need to complete a tax return if you trade 4x the CGT limit.
Oh, f*** yes! Luna wiped me out in 2022. So, I took out a £6k loan in bear market just before the end of zero rates. Went all in on $INJ and $RNDR , it has turned out handsomely well 10x. .. I TP last summer to plough the gains into BTC miners and did 3x via ISA (tax-free account) which I'm still holding LT. I could have left it all in INJ as it has done 30x. But hey, I can't complain. Be careful thought.
Noone that I can find in the UK is offering any of the new US BTC spot ETFs for ISA or SIPP wrappers But that could change at any time I'm sure when they are allowed to do so they'll be shouting it from the roof tops
It's simple, they act as a tax free deriviative. For example, in the UK, you can put them in a tax free ISA or a Self Invested Private Pension.
I'm hoping Vanguard UK will give access to a BTC spot ETFs so I can move my ISA & pension to it I've a few other friends who are considering doing the same We can't be the only ones Even if not a crypto maxi, the average person could easily tolerate say 5% exposure into the crypto space and these BTC spot ETFs would be the easiest way for them to get it
That’s crazy. In Ireland it’s €1,200 per year, I shit you not. So the only way around the exemption is through an ISA or a pension for you then?
Sell under the capital gains limit each year and put against the mortgage. At the same time see if any isa providers allow you to buy bitcoin etf via ISA wrapper so you can enjoy tax free gains…
When you consider that you don't have costs for self custody (e.g. not buying a ledger) and the potential for favourable tax arrangements such as ISA, Roth IRA, it's not such a bad deal paying a bit of overhead for the ETF.
Am I right in thinking I can't get BTC ETFs in UK? Have to rely on proxies like MSTR, COIN and miners in my ISA account.
I got most of my stash tucked away into BTCETC in ISA and SIPP before the gate closed in December 2020 (all brokers banned them about a month before the FCA deadline of 6th January 2021)
Even if you are tech enabled enough to just buy Bitcoin itself and self custody there can still be a tax advantage to an ETF if you can buy it in whatever your country’s version of a Tax free investment account is eg a UK Stocks and Shares ISA.
It's tax efficient. The key is enabling it inside and ISA or pension or other tax advantaged wrapper
If/when we get this ETF, I think I'll put 2-5% of it into my ISA that I dca into at least once a month. Will be nice to get some profits off of BTC in a tax adv account. Just dunno on deciding how much of the allocation since I actually buy crypto directly.
Yeah, FCA aint having it yet though. MSTR probably best bet over the bull market for UK ISA/SIPP. Might be a bit held back in Q1 though.
If I can get them in my interest free ISA account then yes, I'm sure I will.
Tax advantages. No capital gains tax if it's held in whatever the American equivalent of a stocks & shares ISA is.
You have property which means your wealth is nicely split. For everyone else though I don’t suggest going all in on btc. I went in very heavy am happy with my position and am now looking to diversify any saving I make. Living in germany though which sucks as they don’t really have ISA account. I’m literally just waiting for the price of gold to dip below 2k then will just grab a handful. No other ideas really and I don’t wanna start trading with my money
To be honest, reading this post, I suggest you sell it and look up a nice safe Fund somewhere depending on where you live. In the UK it would be an Investment ISA
I think it’s not the correct way 1. You could optimise your tax by using Roth IRA / ISA. You don’t have to pick stocks. Just put all your money in to spy 500 or QQQ Index. Index exists for these reasons 2. When every thing is priced in BTC, 99% of portfolio with BTC makes sense. We do not live in that world now. Every time you convert BTC to fiat you have to pay capital gain tax and every time you buy BTC with fiat you will have to pay spread. You will pay to government each time you convert to and from fiat to BTC 3. Cashing out will depend upon your risk preference. 4. How are you managing your BTC custody ? What will happen when your BTC is lost ? Seed got stolen, forgot the key etc etc .. what will you do in that scenario ? Keeping all eggs in 1 basket is never a good solution
Not convinced this is a great idea. But to answer your question with an option. Could buy a crypto ETF via a trade account. Depending on country, trading 212, Robinhood, Webull. Could do it via tax effective wrapper if he has allowances left (eg. In UK S&S ISA with T212). For example in the UK we have access to VanEck ETFs via Trading212. Or as others have said, central crypto exchange to buy coins. Don’t respond to any PMs!
Wish we could buy crypto via ISA, hopefully one day!
Kinda wanna trim just under 1/3 of my SOL and put it into my ISA (tax adv stocks acc). I mean, the amount I'm trimming was meant to be there anyway and I'm up over 200%.
Depends upon on 2 things 1. Risk tolerance - are you okay if BTC drops to 15K 2. You can use your tax allowance to buy stocks(in U.K. we have ISA, 20K max per year) that are related with Bitcoin eg Microstragey, Marathon . Remember it’s a leverage play on Bitcoin so upside and downside will be even more bitcoin maximalist don’t like option 2. I find it hard not use it when the capital gain is tax free under such allowance
High interest ISA and forget about it.
yep, and you never hear him talking about binary options or crypto! It's really cunning how scams are constructed, knowing that most people draw associations with just a photo and question no further than that. Good on your dad for checking. It's astonishing that in general, people seem to believe they can't wait 5 minutes to verify something - as if the "opportunity" will vanish if they don't act immediately, even though these ads follow them wherever they go on the net. It's all psychological games but adults also need to be adulting. You can't just hurtle headlong into some financial arena you have no experience in without the same diligence needed to choose an ISA, insurer, energy provider, holiday or even new appliance!
Attaching your BTC wether non-custodial of through MSTR shares to an ISA always seems to me a bad idea, whatever way you will be held hostage from the ISA regulations and if you need it urgently you’ll always be stuck with the age limit to withdraw… I personally regret deeply the loads of money dumped in those private pension funda and ISAs… it’s basically government and institutional theft
You got a source? There are equally dubious sources suggesting BTC ETF will be ISA compliant...
Keep your MSTR - it was smart buying it though the ISA and I expect it will outperform btc this bull run. As others have said, simply start accumulating spot as well seperatelu
Which ISA are you using out of interest?
Do you mind explaining how you invested in microstrategy? I have some money in a vanguard S&S ISA, wouldn't mind putting some in microstrategy instead. What service are you using to do this?
Insults are unnecessary!! It's good that you are considering how taxes can impact your UK ISA. Note that managing your investments is what counts, looking back is simple.
You have the choice to sell your shares tax free in the ISA and then buy BTC or remain as you are. The choice is yours.
Why wouldn’t you just buy microstrategy then which can also be bought within a ISA?
There already is a BTC ETF available on (I think) Stockholm exchange and available in the UK. The UK government deemed "for your protection" you are not allowed to purchase it inside any tax efficient vehicle, neither ISA nor pension. So it will be the same for any US listed ETF.
FWIW $5k is the contribution limit per year in the US AFAIK whereas it’s £20k in the UK. And I think the contributions to certain ISA’s in the UK are tax free going in and coming out (if you don’t draw down before age ≈ 60). Big difference with compounding gains!
Also tax efficiency, like if an ETF was available in the UK, you could put it in your ISA. It's a tax wrapper where all gains inside the ISA are tax free.
There’s currently no plans for a BTC (or crypto) ETFs to be included within an ISA wrapper for UK investors :(
Just buy MSTR. Trades on a premium to the underlying bitcoin but it's close enough. You can also buy miners, which trade at a ridiculous multiple to BTC price movements. You can also put MSTR in your ISA, which means no capital gains if you ever decide to sell.
Might take a while for them to come through to ISA’s though, then to have less stock availability
This, I could presumably by crypto in an ISA.
ETH is my second largest holding as well. When I started my IT career 30+ years ago IBM released a new bus technology for computers called Micro Channel Architecture (MCA). It was superior to other bus standards at the time called ISA and EISA. Didn’t matter it was better, others had first mover advantage and MCA went away, despite the advantages. First mover advantage / early adoption often wins out. Same with Token Ring vs Ethernet. That said I still pick up some Alts here and there if it appears to have a decent team and purpose but I realize it’s gambling. Figure the odds are better than roulette— another suckers game but I still get pulled in periodically and drop some chips on some numbers— odds are not good, but the slight chance you might hit brings you back. Lottery tickets where you have a better chance of getting hit my lightning doesn’t stop people from buying. I bought a little SOL when everyone was initially raving about it so it was pretty high, I did DCA a smidge more in when it started to drop and it’s in a phantom wallet somewhere and staked. Nothing substantial but nice to see it rebounding. I pretty much wrote it off with my little bit of LUNA so I’m just going to “let it ride” so long as we’re all gambling here. Peace all, as the dealer says.. good luck!
You may be correct. I only know about UK ISAs. In the case of ISAs, you can make a sale within an ISA without incurring Capital Gains Tax. This is a big deal, because CGT is a huge pain in the ass here. You make a profit on any sale of shares, bonds, ETFs or mutual funds, and you have to pay tax if it exceeds a certain threshold (which is very low) in the tax year.
I thought 401k was more like a UK corporate pension scheme and an ISA was akin to a US Roth IRA ?
It's because of tax. You can get exposure to the Bitcoin price without incurring tax liability when you buy or sell. And the holding fees are minimal. In the US they call it a 401K. In the UK they call it an ISA. In other countries it's called other things. It's a personal tax-protected wrapper in which you can hold all sorts of investments. You will definitely pick up one or several of them in your life.
I’m oversimplifying but an ISA is the UK equivalent of a U.S Roth/ IRA
So I can invest in an ETF from an ISA? Not that clued up on the benefits of this
In the UK you could hold the ETF in an ISA account which is exempt from tax. Even if you make a million in that account you pay no tax.
Can’t wait for that sweet ETF to hit so I can get some nice tax free BTC gainz in an ISA
Actually you're right, it won't be tax free anymore if I buy US stocks in a UK ISA. Damn... I wonder if the UK will have a Spot Bitcoin ETF, I mean what happened to us being the "global crypto hub"? Bunch of clowns. More reason to move to Amsterdam.
Not sure you can get it in a UK ISA
Tax free bitcoin gains in an ISA account sounds good.
This \^... and no, because you didnt cash it in and put it back into the bank yet. Use an ISA (Roth IRA) bank account and fund your Bitcoin from it. That way you don’t have to pay taxes on your trade (income tax) or gains (capital gains) at the point of withdrawals, up to 20k year. If you have more BTC than that, then the 20k is taken off and you are liable for tax on the amount beyond that point. Also you pay no taxes if you just Hodl, so you can use the buying power of Bitcoin and never sell. Instead invest in things like “staking”, which allows you to extract the gains from staking back into your ISA, so you still have your original Bitcoin (owed to you from the exchange you are allowing to stake) but are also using some of its value (the bit you made from staking).
This \^... and no, because you didnt cash it in and put it back into the bank yet. Use an ISA (Roth IRA) bank account and fund your Bitcoin from it. That way you don’t have to pay taxes on your trade (income tax) or gains (capital gains) at the point of withdrawals, up to 20k year. If you have more BTC than that, then the 20k is taken off and you are liable for tax on the amount beyond that point. Also you pay no taxes if you just Hodl, so you can use the buying power of Bitcoin and never sell. Instead invest in things like “staking”, which allows you to extract the gains from staking back into your ISA, so you still have your original Bitcoin (owed to you from the exchange you are allowing to stake) but are also using some of its value (the bit you made from staking).