MSTR

126270

Kind of… MSTR is a way I can buy BTC within my 401k, within my IRA, within my money market account…. Once I can buy BTC directly in any/all those accounts, I’ll have zero use for mstr ( or ibit or any of the others )

MichaelAischmann

Their stock become a (leveraged) proxy for whatever crypto asset they put in their treasury. Possibly with some deviation stemming from thier actual business. The popular example of course is Strategy (formerly Microstrategy) MSTR & BTC. MSTR at this point is BTC with leverage.

ConfuciusYorkZi

Can research more about MSTR and MSTY.

HoldHigher

No, you do not have enough capital. Just long BTC, MSTR, MSTY, ARKB, MTPLF etc.

Savik519

MSTR legacy bloat? At this point their software business is barely a blip on the radar. I can't imagine that is hindering MSTR in any way. I do like Mallers though and think XXI will be a success. Most of these other BTC Treasury Companies are pure shit and will be seen as the grift of this current cycle like we've seen in the past with FTX/Blockfi crap last cycle and shitcoins before that.

PlasticEyebrow

ETF's are buying up all the newly mined supply, So does MSTR, with bitcoin treasury companies popping up left and right. Oh and the SBR in the US (and a few other, still insignificant countries). Demand seems to be increasing, and we all know the new supply will be decreasing. Tell me the future doesn't look bright! I never said bitcoin cannot fail. I said I am almost 100% certain that bitcoin is going to the moon. It even was a little dig at the guy saying "When I walk the street I’m almost 100% certain I’m going to make it to the other side". If me saying what I say has any influence on your faith, then oh well, maybe your faith isn't that strong. Do what you please anyway.

biba8163

**Crypto 101** Alts have NO value of their own. Alts do NOT attract capital on their own. Historically, an Alt like ETH has a correlation coefficient to BTC of 0.96 and only gains value when BTC goes on bullruns. Alts only appreciate and get capital after money flows into BTC and flows out seeking more profit. Notice how ETH only hits new ATHs after BTC hits tops/local tops and profits flow to Alts: > - Summer 2017, ETH hits ATH of $400 after BTC hits local top of $3,000 > - January 2018, ETH hits ATH of $1,400 after BTC hits cycle top of $20K > - May 2021, ETH hits ATH after BTC tops out in April 2021 > - Nov 2021. ETH hits ATH in December after BTC tops out in November 2021 **Crypto 102** The market is changed. The data is indisputable but Alt bagholders and influencers keep cheerleading themselves off a cliff to Altseason. In previous cycles, Alts like ETH, LTC, DOGE already had made their biggest gains 1-Year from the Halvening date NOT at EOY next year after halvening. **This time around these Alts and the Total Alt Marketcap actually has lost value since halvening** and show zero indication of masking any parabolic gains like we saw in previous cycles or gains whatsoever. | ETH | Halvening Date | 1-YR Post Halvening | |:-----------|------------:|:------------:| | July 2016-17 | $11 | $199 | May 2020-21 | $210 | $2,800 | April 2024-25 | $3,157 | $1,580 | **LTC** | July 2016-17 | $4 | $40 | May 2020-21 | $40 | $377 | April 2024-25 | $85 | $77 | **DOGE** | July 2016-17 | $0.0002 | $0.001 | May 2020-21 | $0.002 | $0.49 | April 2024-25 | $0.16 | $0.15 | **Alt Marketcap** *(Excluding Stablecoins)* | July 2016-17 | $2.05 Billion | $52.17 Billion | May 2020-21 | $74.81 Billion | $1.34 Trillion | April 2024-25 | $1.09 Trillion | $0.76 Trillion With Institutional, Corporate, TradFi and Nation State money, BTC's has a strangehold on capital that is never leaving BTC to chase Alts. | 2025 | Holdings | |:-----------|------------:|:------------:| | ETFs (Global) | $151.22 Billion | Public Companies | $81.57 Billion | Nation States | $57.78 Billion | Private Companies | $43.45 Billion | **Total** | **$334.02 Billion** The fact that this cycle has been different and that capital will not flow into Alts has been evident since November but again bagholders and scammer influencers are still clueless and continue to cirlejerk Alt season. > Noobs who weren't around in 2016 and 2020, you should know that 2024 looks very very different so far than at this time frame in 2016 and 2020. (Nov. 5, 2024) > https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1gkfvzs/bitcoin_price_crushing_altcoins_heading_into_us/lvlrry1/ > The market is changing: ETFs, MSTR, etc account for a lot of the inflows. This money is not going to leave BTC seeking greater return on Alts (Nov. 13, 2024) > https://np.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/1gq6ahm/daily_general_discussion_november_13_2024/lwymxl9/ > Each cycle is a bit different. Too many people are saying, just hold on to your coins, it's playing out exactly the same. (Nov. 13, 2024) > https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1gqexix/why_are_there_so_few_active_users_when_btc_is_at/lwxx36a/ > Be careful of people telling you this cycle is playing out exactly the same. ETFs, institutional and mainstream involvement, memecoins, L2 options and ETH competitors, it's very different (Nov. 19, 2024) > https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1gujmk1/daily_crypto_discussion_november_19_2024_gmt0/lxyt5pw/

ManlyAndWise

I have stocks of various types (but a lot of Mag 7), and Bitcoin risks of various types (the coins themselves and shares of several treasury companies, but mainly MSTR). At 10k I would not diversify, particularly if you are young. See my other comment above.

Known-Respect9935

My portfolio is diversified, i bought some BTC, some IBIT, some FBTC, and some MSTR

ConfuciusYorkZi

idk how tax works in USA, but I have read through threads on how they are gaining dividends to reinvest back into MSTR and BTC, through MSTY. I dont live in US, but do play MSTY. I would recommend researching about MSTY and adding a little bit to your portfolio so you can use more dividends to stack more BTC and MSTR. Your're doing so well, I wish you the best. For MSTY info, can find at Yieldmax ETF's reddit page.

ffihjjvrhj

ETFs, MSTR included in the Nasdaq, I’m pretty sure Blackrock is the biggest holder of BTC, small companies like GameStop or Steak n Shake using/investing in BTC. IBIT is the fastest growing ETF ever made, quicker than gold. Let me see you move $1,000,000 worth of gold at the speed of light for cheap compared to what it would take for physical gold. Also, unrelated but stable coins would allow the USD to essentially export american dollars to other countries so they can use them via stablecoins on the ETH or SOL blockchains. This would benefit the US and benefit other people in countries with high inflation and currency debasement. There’s probably more but thats all i can think of rn

CompetitionOptimal42

Build your btc portfolio to focus more on growth. MSTR for leveraged btc.. MSTR/IBIT options for even more leverage.. MSTY or covered call strategy for income. The volatility is a feature, use it.

grid-antlers

I have all of them but Im also under no illusion that shares of MSTR are the same as Bitcoin.

Boogyin1979

>Concerning Blackrock: it's a 3% problem. That's not an enormous problem but it isn't a small one either. If they accumulate more bitcoin it will become a bigger problem. How is it a problem? What the MSTR and ETF crowd either don't understand or do not want to acknowledge is if MSTR or Blackrock, as examples, become adversarial to Bitcoin: the network can simply fork their coins, leaving some them with unspendable UTXOs and a few million empty tax advantaged accounts.

CompetitionOptimal42

30% is great! Start there and adjust it as you want. I started at 1% and I’m now 100%. My bitcoin portfolio: 50% MSTR 30% BTC cold wallet 10% MSTR/IBIT options 10% MSTY

KO9

I did say it's unlikely, but it's still a risk if you actually have the keys. ETFs are much safer, but companies like MSTR that track BTC because they own a large amount of it are at risk of things like dilution or company malpractice. Again I think it's unlikely and I own MSTR shares and would own shares in a BTC ETF if I could but these are still risks that are not there if you control your own BTC

KO9

Not OP but I have been acquiring BTC since \~2017, have never sold any (excl. some 'market' activity). Selling would be a little problematic due to tax reasons, not even sure how I would work out cost avg. So I picked up some MSTR (cannot buy crypto deriv in UK) in a tax free ISA so I have at some point something I could sell without worrying about tax if I wanted to.

KO9

NYKNYC MSTR could (very unlikely imo) go bankrupt or any other number of things could affect the company/share price BTC ETF custodians could fuck up somehow

biophysicsguy

4. All of the above. I keep the majority of my BTC in cold storage because I know the risks associated with exchanges or banks: I had an account with BlockFi. While I know the risks I’m willing to take some risk. I have some MSTR because I believe they will continue to increase BTC per share and will become one of the largest companies in the world. Their fixed income products will be huge. If you believe in Bitcoin for yourself why not believe in a company that embraces and understands Bitcoin. I own some IBIT too because at some point in time I may want to sell some covered calls on Bitcoin.

CompetitionOptimal42

Yep, that’s the move. I prefer running them on MSTR over IBIT because the higher IV pulls better yield. But ~1%/mo with 15 delta is solid especially if you’ve got size or want to hedge the btc chop. At this point, btc is the hurdle rate and any additional yield you can scrape on top is the alpha.

Visual_Building_1666

So you are against Michael Saylor buying so much inside MSTR and you are against Blackrock, Fidelity and others buying so much BTC inside their spot Bitcoin ETFs? That's millions of BTC (which has also helped cause the price of BTC to go up). In America, I think the risk of the government confiscating people's BTC inside their regulated spot ETFs is **very small**. In contrast, the risk of people losing or forgetting their keys and no longer having access to their BTC is in my opinion a larger risk, though still small. It is said that well over 1 million BTC have gone lost so far...so it's not theoretical. The point of the question was to hear different people's answers and points of view. Answers 1, 2, and 4 are all represented here...which is as I expected. And I'm sure answer 3 would be found in the subreddit for MSTR.

Dettol-tasting-menu

I get that. But you can claim ownership all day long but if the key holder won’t budge, or ran off, or got hacked, the claim is pretty useless. See FTX or BlockFi. This is especially true for Bitcoin which is unprintable. So OP isn’t all wrong, in a certain strict sense, MSTR owns zilch. Legal ownership notwithstanding.

CompetitionOptimal42

Preferred set up depends on your personal goals but my current allocation is: 50% MSTR 30% BTC cold storage 10% MSTR/IBIT Options 10% MSTY. As I trim MSTR/Options I’ll rotate more into BTC.

Visual_Building_1666

Personally, I don't want the hassle or risk of holding BTC myself, and I have Roth accounts, so I have IBIT. I may start selling covered calls on it as well, while holding onto the shares. And I've been thinking about buying some MSTR, but haven't yet.

Horror-Water77

The chart literally says 2024. Not up to date MSTR has 582k. And coinbase/binance/blackrock dont *own* the BTC, they hold it on behalf of customers. So thats wrong too

KateR_H0l1day

Does having ETF’s in BTC & derivatives like MSTR count, or is only the coins themselves that count? I remember 2014 & 15 talking about it with 2 work colleagues, but none of us bought then, to the best of my knowledge 😢. Ohhhh how little we need, but I’m glad to be in the crypto game now.

rhythm_of_eth

MSTR also does not control BTC for clients. They clearly state that their stock does not give any rights to the BTC they hold Key aspect to how the company works

CraaazyPizza

Leveraged ETFs reset their margin everyday so it can never go to zero unless it drops more than 50% in one day for a 2x LETF. Or buy MSTR which is naturally levered.

Spacetravller2060

Yes, every shareholder have a piece in the holding of MSTR .

AmNotReel

They all custody that much BTC but company ownership is likely much less. MSTR doesnt own the BTC the shareholders do.

Mother-Chipmunk2778

MSTR has 550k btc, coinbase doesn’t own bitcoin, its on behalf of their clients

KO9

Your friend should probably seek advice from an accountant. That said... If you want to trade BTC without paying taxes I think your best bet would be to get exposure through a S&S ISA. Sadly in the UK we are not allowed to trade in crypto derivatives (no ETFs) but companies like MSTR can mirror BTC movement due to heavy company investment in BTC. This of course comes with it's own risks which you should research yourself

LimitAlternative2629

That's why you shouldn't buy MSTR, it is 2nd best, at best. And only excuses instead of presenting their wallet like the big exchanges do.

jorgehn12

I’m only buying 100% stocks. I only buy MSTR.

CheerfulSamurai

As long as you’re not buying dumb stocks it’s good to them part of your portfolio (So have I heard. I certainly don’t have any bitcoin or stocks) From what I hear Tesla and Nvdia are out performing the Mag7 and MSTR out performing everything. But I think MSTR is just another Bitcoin play and therefore it’s not a good hedge for bear market.

Unlucky-Evidence-372

I have the opposite problem. I cant seem to hold any stocks long term, except MSTR. I have no conviction on the rest.

Fiannd

MSTR? its ok, that's Bitcoin with extra steps

Obvireal

I’ve got IBIT MSTR MSTU SMLR MARA NAKA ASST CEP FAAS TSLA CORZ CLSK CRCL TZUP and some FLD. Hahahaha😈 Treasuries for the win🚀

acorcuera

I’m 20/40/40 PLTR, IBIT, MSTR. My strategy is that I’m going to live off PLTR. Not touch my IBIT and MSTR unless I have to. If I do, borrow against my IBIT. My kids will get the balance.

adiabatic_storm

Buy long calls on Bitcoin ETFs. Maybe also sell short puts. Invest in MSTR as others have said. Consider staking. Lots of options, both figuratively and literally.

Holokahiki786

Net Asset Value. Some feel MSTR is overvalued compared to how many BTC it owns. Should BTC soar then the MSTR price is not overvalued. Having a major short seller betting against MSTR will depress its price until it’s clear what the market believes

Zanar2002

You think he's operating fraudulently like FTX was? I can see them having to sell some to cover the converts and the STRK dividends, but BTC would have to drop maybe 80% and stay there for a couple of years for that to happen. So, MSTR selling would tank the market, but for them to be forced to sell the market would have to tank first, meaning Saylor is unlikely to be the catalyst. Unless he's running a ponzi or something like that...which, for the love of God I hope he isn't! lol

diarioechohumo

Easy! I'm sharing my full Bitcoin income strategy using IBIT, designed to work through market cycles, generate cash flow, and minimize taxes over the long term. The strategy is built on the 500-day halving theory, covered call income, margin management, defensive hedging during bear markets, and the principle of never selling the core position. Here's the deep breakdown: I started with \$300,000 in capital: * \$60,000 in a Roth IRA, fully invested in IBIT * \$10,000 in a Roth 401k, invested in SPY * \$230,000 in a taxable brokerage account, fully in IBIT I also borrowed \$165,000 using margin to increase my IBIT exposure. That brought my total IBIT position to \$455,000, at an average cost basis of about \$57/share. Each week, I sell covered calls on my IBIT holdings, targeting around 0.10 delta. Historically, this type of strategy yields around 15% annually. On \$455,000, that generates approximately \$68,250 per year in premiums. Here's how that breaks down: * About \$9,000 in premiums come from the Roth IRA and are completely tax-free * The remaining \~\$59,250 come from the taxable account and the margin-funded shares Margin costs me 5.25% annually on the \$165,000 borrowed, which is about \$8,662 per year in interest. I pay this interest using a portion of the premiums collected from the weekly call sales. After interest, my net premium income is approximately \$59,600 per year. Of that, \~\$50,600 is taxable and \~\$9,000 is tax-free. Importantly, I apply the after-tax, after-interest portion of the premiums—what I call "net net income"—to gradually reduce the margin balance itself. Over time, this means my debt is shrinking while the asset value of IBIT potentially grows. Even before a cycle peak, I’m reducing risk in the background without selling any shares. In addition, from my full-time job earning \$56,000/year, I contribute approximately \$600/month to my investment accounts. This ensures I meet the annual Roth IRA contribution limit while slowly boosting my long-term tax-free holdings. I contribute 6% of my salary to my Roth 401k, and my employer matches 4% into the same Roth 401k. Because of my combined salary and taxable option premium income, I land in the 24% to 32% federal tax bracket, plus California’s 9.3% to 11.3% income tax bracket. On the \~\$50,600 in taxable premiums, I expect to pay around \$22,000 to \$25,000 annually in taxes. But here's where the real strategy kicks in: My core principle is to never sell IBIT. Instead of realizing capital gains, I generate weekly income from covered calls while allowing the ETF to appreciate. This avoids triggering taxable events related to selling. The only time I'd realize a gain is if I get early assigned on a call and my shares are called away. If that happens, I’ll check the holding period. If I've held the shares for more than one year, I qualify for long-term capital gains; if not, I try to avoid assignment by rolling the option out and up. If Bitcoin crashes before the expected ATH window, I have a contingency plan. I can sell a deep in-the-money LEAP call at a much lower strike than planned—perhaps even \$25 or \$30—depending on the price at that time. This allows me to raise enough capital from the LEAP premium to pay off the margin and eliminate interest payments. I don’t panic sell IBIT. Instead, I use the premium income and the LEAP structure to manage downside risk while keeping my core holdings intact. When the market reaches its expected peak (based on the 500-day post-halving theory, which puts the next top around September 2025), I plan to sell a deep-in-the-money (DITM) LEAP call, such as a Jan 2027 expiration with a strike around \$30 or \$40. If IBIT reaches \~\$100/share by then, a DITM LEAP can yield a very large premium, potentially \$50+ per share. Selling this LEAP gives me a large upfront cash inflow without actually selling my shares. I use that LEAP premium to fully pay off the \$165,000 margin balance. That eliminates interest costs and removes margin call risk entirely. Most importantly, because a LEAP sale is an open position, I don’t pay taxes on that premium until one of three things happens: the LEAP is assigned, expired, or closed. Until then, it's unrealized. This is key: I remove debt at the market top, neutralize risk, and defer taxes. I can then continue selling weekly calls on any uncovered portion of my IBIT, generating more income even after locking in the top through the LEAP. During the bear market phase (typically about 12-18 months post-ATH), I accumulate cash from call income. I do NOT DCA blindly. Instead, I hold and wait. When we hit deep bear market lows (expected late 2026 or early 2027), I plan to buy more IBIT or rotate into leveraged ETFs like BITX, or long-term LEAP calls on IBIT or MSTR. This aggressive reinvestment during fear phases is how I compound over multiple cycles. The strategy I follow during the bear market is almost identical to what I do in the bull phase, but inverted. I shift from selling calls on IBIT to doing the same with inverse instruments. I apply the same covered call strategy to positions in inverse ETFs like SBIT or BITI, or use shares of inverse MicroStrategy proxies like SMST or MSTZ. I sell weekly calls against these bearish instruments while they appreciate in a declining market. This provides income during downtrends and gives me even more cash to deploy when the market bottoms out. The account structure is also intentional: * Roth IRA: tax-free growth + tax-free weekly income from calls * Roth 401k: tax-free SPY growth * Taxable: income and appreciation with margin flexibility By combining this structure with cycle-based timing, I avoid taxable sales, maximize cash flow, defer realized gains through LEAPs, and only reinvest at the deepest value points. This isn’t financial advice, but it is my real strategy: full-time job, low lifestyle cost, Bitcoin ETF compounding, option income, responsible use of margin, applying premium income to reduce debt, contingency planning for early crashes, bear market hedging, and cycle-based patience. I’m not trying to time days or weeks. I’m trying to own time itself.

diarioechohumo

Easy! I'm sharing my full Bitcoin income strategy using IBIT, designed to work through market cycles, generate cash flow, and minimize taxes over the long term. The strategy is built on the 500-day halving theory, covered call income, margin management, and the principle of never selling the core position. Here's the deep breakdown: I started with $300,000 in capital: * $60,000 in a Roth IRA, fully invested in IBIT * $10,000 in a Roth 401k, invested in SPY * $230,000 in a taxable brokerage account, fully in IBIT I also borrowed \$165,000 using margin to increase my IBIT exposure. That brought my total IBIT position to \$455,000, at an average cost basis of about \$57/share. Each week, I sell covered calls on my IBIT holdings, targeting around 0.10 delta. Historically, this type of strategy yields around 15% annually. On \$455,000, that generates approximately \$68,250 per year in premiums. Here's how that breaks down: * About \$9,000 in premiums come from the Roth IRA and are completely tax-free * The remaining \~\$59,250 come from the taxable account and the margin-funded shares Margin costs me 5.25% annually on the \$165,000 borrowed, which is about \$8,662 per year in interest. I pay this interest using a portion of the premiums collected from the weekly call sales. After paying interest, my net premium income is approximately \$59,600 per year. Of that, \~\$50,600 is taxable and \~\$9,000 is tax-free. I also work a full-time job earning \$56,000/year. I contribute 6% of my salary to my Roth 401k, and my employer matches 4% into the same Roth 401k. Because of my combined salary and taxable option premium income, I land in the 24% to 32% federal tax bracket, plus California’s 9.3% to 11.3% income tax bracket. On the \~\$50,600 in taxable premiums, I expect to pay around \$22,000 to \$25,000 annually in taxes. But here's where the real strategy kicks in: My core principle is to never sell IBIT. Instead of realizing capital gains, I generate weekly income from covered calls while allowing the ETF to appreciate. This avoids triggering taxable events related to selling. The only time I'd realize a gain is if I get early assigned on a call and my shares are called away. If that happens, I’ll check the holding period. If I've held the shares for more than one year, I qualify for long-term capital gains; if not, I try to avoid assignment by rolling the option out and up. Now, when the market reaches its expected peak (based on the 500-day post-halving theory, which puts the next top around September 2025), I plan to sell a deep-in-the-money (DITM) LEAP call, such as a Jan 2027 expiration with a strike around \$30 or \$40. If IBIT reaches \~\$100/share by then, a DITM LEAP can yield a very large premium, potentially \$50+ per share. Selling this LEAP gives me a large upfront cash inflow without actually selling my shares. I use that LEAP premium to fully pay off the \$165,000 margin balance. That eliminates interest costs and removes margin call risk entirely. Most importantly, because a LEAP sale is an open position, I don’t pay taxes on that premium until one of three things happens: the LEAP is assigned, expired, or closed. Until then, it's unrealized. This is key: I remove debt at the market top, neutralize risk, and defer taxes. I can then continue selling weekly calls on any uncovered portion of my IBIT, generating more income even after locking in the top through the LEAP. During the bear market phase (typically about 12-18 months post-ATH), I accumulate cash from call income. I do NOT DCA blindly. Instead, I hold and wait. When we hit deep bear market lows (expected late 2026 or early 2027), I plan to buy more IBIT or rotate into leveraged ETFs like BITX, or long-term LEAP calls on IBIT or MSTR. This aggressive reinvestment during fear phases is how I compound over multiple cycles. I also don’t sit idle during down markets. I’ll consider inverse BTC ETFs like SBIT to profit from the downside, or use puts or inverse ETFs on MicroStrategy like MSTZ or SMST. I hedge actively and build war chests during bear phases. The account structure is also intentional: * Roth IRA: tax-free growth + tax-free weekly income from calls * Roth 401k: tax-free SPY growth * Taxable: income and appreciation with margin flexibility By combining this structure with cycle-based timing, I avoid taxable sales, maximize cash flow, defer realized gains through LEAPs, and only reinvest at the deepest value points. This isn’t financial advice, but it is my real strategy: full-time job, low lifestyle cost, Bitcoin ETF compounding, option income, responsible use of margin, and cycle-based patience. I’m not trying to time days or weeks. I’m trying to own time itself.

callebbb

lol @ “lightly short” MSTR. It’s leveraged to BTC performance, and will wreck you just as hard. By the time financing your puts become impossible and capitulation occurs, that’s when it’ll turn around. And you’ll go “I was right!!?!” while bankrupt.

SneakyTurtle54

The only realistic person here. My one upvote aint gonna save you from this mob tho. Bunch of ppl hoping $100 turns to $1 million. Even saylor is an idiot the way he talks. Winter will come. I’m thinking around end of year. I’m personally just selling them gonna buy back in. Also plan to lightly short MSTR

Substantial_Lake5957

This. Holding more than 1BTC equivalent now through ETFs over the years, along with some positions in MSTR, HUT and other miners. Now I am seriously planning to add a new position in a wallet.

laughncow

some empower accounts have a feature to move the money into a brokerage account in the empower 401k . I was able to do that for her and get her retired 10 years early thanks to MSTR

laughncow

I was able to move all of my wife's 401k into the brokerage account of the 401k during covid and put the whole thing into MSTR. The rest is history. 20x She has since retired .

shigydigy

Why was MSTR a silly move? Thinking of buying some myself

riscten

I mean that's true, Bitcoin "only" pumped by 6.4x since the post, and they could've dumped all their money in SKYE or even MSTR and made far, far more money (20-170x)

CapitalIncome845

If you believe BTC price go up, then you can assume MSTR price go up more. Personally I have about 1/2 of my BTC in cold storage, 30% in MSTR, and 20% in MSTY.

CapitalIncome845

In the last year MSTR has moved \~2.9x the price of BTC. If you're truly degenerate, there are 2X MSTR ETFs you can play with. I would hardly call them "safe" though.

aTurnedOnCow

I think it’s more that MSTR don’t have to repay their debts for a long time so in the event of a price drop they should be fine and won’t get liquidated

Abundance144

Don't do that.... If anything you can roll it into a self directed IRA and buy MSTR or a Bitcoin ETF. Your going to get slammed by taxes if you transfer to cash and then to Bitcoin.

wattbaAfrican

Bitcoin is the eternal store of value. People don’t sell their Picassos, Basquiats, or gold. When USD tanks, they’re your protection. I’m the meantime, can take a loan against your BTC, and trade MSTR options. Sell some covered calls for smaller cap Bitcoin related stocks. (I’m just coming to this realization myself, so NFA. But better than selling your digital real estate).

MichaelAischmann

So what? People vote for presidents that could start a nuclear war if they want to. We judge people by their actions, not dooms day fantasies. And Saylor is buying. PS: Satoshi's stack is larger than that of MSTR. He's in the same position. Should we not praise Satoshi either?

btcpsycho

Tether and MSTR are the Achilles heel of the markets

Baghira1986

Techlead is an idiot but this time his thinking is correct. I am heavy in Bitcoin treasury companies like MSTR, MTPLF und ALTBG that do the leverage more intelligent than i could do myself. Plus they have superior wqys to tap into the capital markets compared to us plebs.

Fun-Sundae4060

So why are you buying MSTY instead of just MSTR

Illustrious-Boss9356

Most of those institutions are owned by retail though... MSTR, STRD, STRF Shareholders. ETFs own a bunch and those are legally owned by their shareholders as well.

Dettol-tasting-menu

The biggest danger in my mind is that people falsely believe that holding ETF and MSTR etc are the same thing as holding real bitcoin and then they encourage everyone to do the same. “It’s just a safer way to hold bitcoin I get the same gains anyway” “I’m afraid I’d mess up and lose everything, I trust Charles Schwab more than myself” If everyone thinks this way Bitcoin will be nothing more than some locked up token, losing its biggest attributes: permissionless, censorship resistant, decentralised, peer-to-peer, global electronics cash system. It’ll be just some number on everyone’s broker account screens. If it fails to stay permissionless and decentralised, Bitcoin is worthless. The so-called “gains” in the noob / finBro/ normies’ mind, their expected 10X, 100X, won’t materialise either. We all crash to nothingness and zero. And this project will fail. So wake the fuck up, people. Especially if you’re new to Bitcoin and think you outsmart the OG by just getting the “exposure”. Without bitcoin being decentralised and uncontrolled, your IBIT will go to zilch too. So stop showing your smug face lecturing how smart you are taking advantage of this glitch where ETF holders can just ride the wave to the moon. Learn to self custody. It’s not hard. It’s satisfying. And it’s the only reason why Bitcoin is valuable in the first place.

AlternativeWonder471

Definitely possible. Stock market is at 200% GDP. Valuations are at historic highs. A normal bear market would see BTC hit 50-64k. A GFC would easily see it to 20k imo, and all signs point to a GFC coming (rate hikes, inverted yields, high valuations, US credit, personal debt, etc) Then one big wick could see it into 4 digits again (possibly from MSTR liquidation). Not saying it will happen. But it's something I'm hopeful about.

kurremise

dont think we ever see under 25k price. even that would require MSTR fail which is possible.

Subject_Reward

MSTR is not Bitcoin. It’s still putting all your trust in one institution. Bitcoin is built on fundamentals that nothing else has. Not saying that MSTR is a bad investment, but it’s not Bitcoin.

Infinite_Scheme_1783

can man stack MSTR instead?

xj6man

Before you buy BTC open a brokerage account at Fidelity (IRA if your working or after tax if not) and buy 5 shares of MSTR and $2,000 worth of Metaplanet. You will make your 50k back in a few yrs. Then buy BTC any way you prefer..now or dollar cost avg. You can churn buys/sells in an IRA without any taxable worries.

Existing_Storm65

I think its possible, but it would take a series of catastrophic events. The bear naturally starts and price dips to 60k -> a major exchange goes under and some global events cause price dip to 20k -> MSTR is forced to liquidate on the open market. Possible but unlikely.

JerkyJunkie

Which points were made? There was only this past year or so that BTC proxies and ETFs (besides MSTR) were approved and became popular. Which MSTR was an odd man out, that everyone thought would fail, yet flourished, and is being copied left and right. We’re also technically extended through what the usual cycle would normally be already. There also was an abundance of BTC available on exchanges. During a time of QE rather than the current QT. Once they turn the printer on and cut rates where’s that money going to go? Into the failing 500t dollar bond market? I believe personally to the hardest, safest, most convenient decentralized asset. That’s now being swapped by Larry fink, and BlackRock to save pension funds they manage throughout the U.K. that are failing being backed by their bond market. Only a month and a half ago did places like Fidelity, Schwab, and other brokerages even allow pensions/401ks etc exposure to BTC ETFs and proxies. Wait until you can have full exposure to the real thing. So what points? I’d be happy to have an open dialogue, and understand your position better, but I need more than “your points have been made for two cycles” which is 8 years. When we only just got less than 200 days ago a crypto friendly administration, even setting up a strategic BTC reserve, passing pro crypto legislation... G-D bless you, either way everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but if you’d like to have a fair open dialogue. I would much enjoy that, and be open minding to less vague answers like “your points were made before” when 90% of them have only become possible in the last year. Last I checked cycles were on average 4 years based on the halving.

JerkyJunkie

This guy gets it lol. Has anyone else looked at the massive supply shock? Counting in the institutional buying, the strategic reserves being setup, new retail FOMO, and the decoupling from the equity, and bond market as this smart man has mentioned? Not even taking into consideration that besides all the coins being ripped off the exchange weekly by the thousands, and thousands, that the miners can only produce what 4500 coins a week? Which when cut in half will cause not just a supply shock (which everyone is ignoring), but a complete supply meltdown… It is 100% different, everyone’s entitled to their own opinions, and hopium that we get a chance to stack again much lower, but everything is pointing in the opposite direction. Especially when (for just one example as to which there are many) the Swiss national bank is not just heavily stacking BTC, but massively buying shares of BTC proxy vehicles like MSTR, and IBIT, etc. You go brother stay MAXI my friend! G-D bless💙✝️🙏

Hfksnfgitndskfjridnf

MSTR buys every week. Others have confidence to buy Bitcoin because they know MSTR is constantly buying regardless of price. So others know if they want to exit their Bitcoin position, MSTR will be there buying no matter the price.

Hfksnfgitndskfjridnf

They think MSTR will continue generating BTC yield. They haven’t done the math though. In 2024 MSTR bought 257k Bitcoin. MSTR generated a 74% BtC yield. So far in 2025 MSTR has bought 136k Bitcoin, more than half of their 2024 purchases. So the BTC yield is more than 37% right? Nope, it’s 17%. The more BTC MSTR buys the harder it is to get additional yield. Buying 100k BTC gets them less than 10% yield now. This is why they are slowing down on common stock ATM and issuing more preferred stock. The preferred stock gives them higher current BTC yield. But the preferreds carry a 10% dividend, in perpetuity, so while current BTC yield is higher, it will give them negative BTC yield in the future. I originally thought 2026 would be the last year MSTR generated double digit BTC yield. Now, because they are stepping up their preferred offerings, I think 2026 will be the last year they get positive BTC yield period. 2026 will show big capital raises with little impact on yield, this will cause the stock multiple to crater towards 1, or maybe even sub 1. A multiple that low means they can’t issue common shares accretively. And not being able to issue common stock will tank the price of the preferreds as well, making them yield more and being unattractive to issue. This means MSTR won’t be in a position to raise more capital to buy more Bitcoin.

Jazzlike-Check9040

You’ll need to elaborate. What do you mean sell to MSTR?

Hfksnfgitndskfjridnf

Price is propped up because everyone knows they can just sell to MSTR. So he’s enticing other people who might not otherwise buy to do so knowing MSTR is putting a floor on the price. Once that illusion of a floor is taken away, there’s nothing holding it up. You really think anyone but cultists really value Bitcoin? Everyone else is just chasing number goes up.

Every_Hunt_160

Lots of $MSTR bagholders who defend Saylor around r/cc and also at r/Bitcoin

Every_Hunt_160

The only people who will be shocked are MSTR bagholders who call themselves Bitcoin maxis but have unwittingly fell into SaylorMoon's spell

GeneralZex

MSTR was failing before starting a treasury. MetaPlanet had failing hotel operations before starting a treasury. Gamestop also isn’t looking too hot recently and they too bought some Bitcoin for a treasury. If these companies aren’t taking in new revenue for operations they will have to use Bitcoin for revenues (generally speaking). However I suppose the issue though is the fact that such companies will be able to borrow against the assets if they need funds for operations, which wouldn’t require selling or paying in Bitcoin unless they get margin called (which is probably a remote possibility for them compared to everyone else). Obviously the hope would be that they eventually reintroduce portions of their stack into the economy by way of paying employees with Bitcoin, and paying for goods and services with Bitcoin, but we may be a ways off from that happening.

dmitryaus

Saylor has more than 1 product to sell. He pitches it daily through various media, attracting new investors. It's a matter of time when he will pull the plug. Look at the MSTR chart, it's up 1000% in the last 2-3 years. The best you can ask for is 2x from now before he runs out of funds however, he'll be OK, he has Bitcoin. But most of his customers, will have a debt to settle.

IcyDragonFire

Bitcoin now depends on MSTR, while MSTR depends on Bitcoin.   Neither is useful or sustainable on its own, meaning they'll both come crashing together.

Ethericl

Got it, so if MSTR sells then BTC may do the same?

DarrinEagle

This is a Bitcoin forum but I will try to be helpful. You need a stock broker to buy a stock. For example, you could use Fidelity or Robinhood. They have websites and apps. You buy a stock, say MSTR. Most people leave the stock in their brokerage account. Technically you don't own the stock, you only own the account. Your broker owns the stock on your behalf. You could request the broker to deliver the shares to you. This is rare these days and not simple. Historically, you could get a stock certificate or book entry shares. The latter is an account with the stock's transfer agent. There will be fees (perhaps $100) to do this. Many stocks no longer have physical certificates available. Going through this process is not worth it for the vast majority of people. Its worth doing only if your broker fails (bankruptcy).

HelloImAFox

You’re too busy trying to poke holes in the thought experiment to even think about the overarching idea. The company runs out of fiat… A tsunami destroys all their physical assets… an asteroid hits the earth…. The idea isn’t that it’s a single corp but a handful of them, MSTR, Apple, Amazon, Meta, Walmart… Why would customers pay in bitcoin even though it’s more valuable that fiat? Shit ask all those people who posted themselves buying shakes or burgers all over this sub with bitcoin… “how is your corp going to pay employees, buyback stock, pay dividends and conduct business only in fiat????” Hmmmm you mean the same way it occurs every day with essentially every company around the world today????

HelloImAFox

It’s like if MSTR gobbles up all the bitcoin and just holds it forever then what happens to bitcoin? It becomes valuable but ultimately useless. I mean it’s not going to happen but the idea is an interesting thought experiment.

Other-Temporary6298

As you learn more, you'll understand why people don't just "help" others understand Bitcoin (and/or bitcoin) that easily. Orange-pilling is often wasted time, and it can even end badly. People will acquire BTC when they're ready—and they become ready by doing their own research. While most of us here truly believe BTC is one of the best things that has ever happened to humanity, that conviction can't simply be transferred to someone else. Read The Bitcoin Standard, Broken Money, The Big Print, etc. Watch videos from reputable sources like Bitcoin University, Future Signal, and others. Proof-of-work isn’t just about mining—it also applies to the effort you put into understanding this. That effort will pay off, but it has to start with you, and you have to be genuinely convinced. It doesn’t mean you won’t feel fear, but strong conviction will keep you from panic selling during big dips—or big spikes. For me, understanding Bitcoin has been (and still is) a daily learning process. I still remember the feeling of my brain twisting inside my head when I first started. It’s beautiful—and you may eventually feel like renting a plane and flying a Bitcoin flag over your city. But take it slow. But well, if you took the time to read up to this point, here are some hints: Buy BTC, IBIT is not BTC, MSTR is not BTC, get the real thing, DCA (it helps remove the emotional component of risk), get a cold wallet (a good one, bitcoin only, I recommend Coldcard or Blockstream Jade), move to cold storage from time to time, no shitcoins, have a backup, have another backup, stop giving information about yourself (34 years), just don't say anything that can be traced back to your person, and never publicly say how much bitcoin you have. Finally, wait 20 or 30 years. My two SATS. Hope it helps.

steelchairframe

And this is the time to buy. It'll be just like the FTX bottom. We needed a reason for mass capitulation and I believe MSTR may just be that in the future.

catterj

I still have stuff like a car but 90% of my investments are in BTC. I have a pension at my job that I can access with a penalty if I quit, and so about 6% is taken up by that. There are other odds and ends I pretty much can’t put in btc. I sold a single family dwelling my wife and I had as a rental. That paid off debt allowing me to buy more btc per month. I own some MSTR now, but that was a silly move and I will put that into the btc ETF on Monday. Diversification is not necessary for me. Diversification is for when you don’t know anything about what you’re investing in, and/or you are afraid of the risk. I know about Bitcoin, but if you don’t know about it or any company in the S&P 500, then just buy SPY. And start learning about Bitcoin. In my view, risk is the chance of permanent loss of capital, NOT volatility. I don’t care about volatility. Go up, go down, go sideways - buy, buy, buy the bitcoin. I believe my Bitcoin holdings will not experience a permanent loss of capital because of what I have learned. Too much to put into this already too long reply.

Dazzling-Primary-815

I’d diversify more with MSTR if I were you 

mr-fybxoxo

When BTC dipped that low, I had a plan to ask my uncle to lend my 50K… to go all in on MSTR… I never asked him tho. But yall can guess how it beautifully would’ve worked out 🥲

NinjaChore

MSTR has entered the chat, I can take that BTC off your hands

neoKushan

I guess that makes sense, I just don't understand why the value of MSTR grows faster than the value of its investments.

TakingChances01

It’s obviously a speculative investment that’s banking on MSTR growing faster than bitcoin, which it has since they started buying bitcoin. And in most circumstances you can still exit the position and get in bitcoin with the profits whenever you like.

awaller777

I like my bitcoin so I try to not use it as a means of exchange. I hate keeping my dollars so I use a Roth and buy btc proxies. MSTR, Y and U. IBIT, and METAPLANET. I keep some IBIT, MSTU and Y in a brokerage account. I use this to create more fiat to use to either stack sats, pay credit cards or other liabilities. Instead of having to sell the underlying or take a loan against your sats. This is the way I like to think that those of us who don't want to sell the underlying will have to allocate their income. And at the same time not lose the value of their energy and time by keeping it in cash.

biophysicsguy

I’ve diversified my portfolio: BTC, MSTR, and IBIT calls (73%/24%/3% respectively).

Amazing_Exercise_313

Correct, I own MSTR and MSTY on Vanguard. But I’m mad they don’t allow IBIT or FBTC

EuphoricParley

I think its funny how doubters claim that the massive buying by MSTR will lead to a collapse, they don't see the entanglements and that there is a slowly then sudden collapse, but of the dollar and FIAT how we know them. I think there will always be room for FIAT but they will be more opt in as governments lose control over the enforcement of currencies.

didnt_hodl

not sure what you mean. Vanguard has been a top MSTR share holder for decades. as of March 2025, Vanguard is the #1 institutional MSTR share holder with 20.5M shares [https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSTR/holders/](https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MSTR/holders/)

Terhonator

MSTR is sucking all fiat slowly into bitcoin blackhole. Force that is so strong that it can not be stopped. Just pure mathematics and physics.

Newbie123plzhelp

Yeah Bitcoin just goes up forever. This is a super cycle right? No correction after ripping 7x off the bottom. Let's clarify a few things. There is no institutional adoption. Microsoft, Apple and Meta rejected holding Bitcoin by their shareholders vote by 99%+ There are a few companies whose whole schtick is buying as much Bitcoin as possible, but they are drops in the ocean compared to what MSTR has already done and is doing. ETFs are also almost entirely retail buyers. A new sector of retail for sure, but still retail like every other cycle. Retail is full of marginal buyers and sellers, nothing has changed. Finally the bear market corrections average closer to 80% down than 70% I don't know when the top is, but once it hits the correction will be violent as usual.

vegienomnomking

Wuh? You certainly can buy Bitcoin on vanguard. MSTR and yieldmax shits are all on vanguard.

Gatorman2023

Yeah same I do believe in BTC and MSTR heavily for at least the rest of the year.