BYD

apexisdumb

When Tesla was continuously missing deliveries no one batted an eye. The reason Elon Musk had to travel to Chy-na was because of the NIO competition. The timing is just too perfect for him not to want to check out an NT2.0 model in person. Tesla over there making poor quality cars and still mooning while slashing prices to keep up with NIO offerings. While the transition from 1.0 to 2.0 may cause delivery miss, I personally don’t think sales were affected all that much. Delivery misses are common in this industry after all. NIO is a long term play plagued by nothing else other than geopolitical risk which is out of their control. Their battery swap technology fills Elon Musk with envy and is a nightmare for him. NIO Management expanded into markets cutting dependence on Chy-na so global sales may or may not be bad but the tech is there. The pace of R&D will taper out in the future as cash flow improves. BYD is only forefront because of deliveries which was made pretty much made possible by Berkshire’s investment. And Li isn’t even worth talking about honestly imo. The only problem NIO is a fucking ADR over here. I’m betting calls or sideways fuckery.

rideincircles

Tesla will reach new all time highs at some point soon. Just wait until the Tesla compact car out produces the model Y. That doesn't even consider full self driving's total impact. I just got the new FSD update and it's way better than it used to be. It's like it went from a student driver to someone in their 20's. It's driving pretty normally now compared to sluggish and indecisive decision making it used to do. A few more iterations of hardware with software updates and Tesla will have robotaxis on the streets. Also, their battery and grid storage business will be sold out through the 2030's no matter how much they produce. The demand is virtually endless for those products. Now is still a good time to buy Tesla stock. Their competition can't catch up on almost any front other than BYD.

socalmikester

BYD is chinese, and assemble electric busses in california

Chromewave9

NIO is getting their lunch eaten by BYD and their battery swap system is costly and silly. There are much better companies to invest in.

RNGesusDoesntLoveMe

EV nowadays have enough range for an everyday drive then charge at night, the rich will more likley use a plane for travel. And if there are enough charging stations it kind of makes a this car nothing but a complete waste of money. I see this as a waste of money. I'll be suprised if any company besides BYD doesn't go bankrupt.

Logical-Idea-1708

Also, all the EV buses on the streets are BYD, the Chinese EV company.

corinalas

Tesla already buys batteries from China. Their electric car companies already sell more electric cars a quarter than Tesla does. Have you seen some of their models which have already expanded to Europe and some are in the states now. Ever heard of Nio or BYD? Tesla has seen the writing on the wall and is sourcing their most expensive materials from the only market thats is actually innovating now in electrification.

araararagi-san

tariffs BYD has made a lot of inroads in the EU market already

Crowleyer

Fair enough. You defended the metaverse. Nevertheless, my main point is still valid. You can't use 1 company as the benchmark to divide people into good and bad investors. Even big investors like Charlie Munger/WB are sometimes wrong (e.g.BABA) or right (BYD). THe market is not black/white. Anyway, have a great night :)

RationalExuberance7

I would what Charlie Munger said about BYD when it went up beyond his expectation. He said he talked about this with Li Lu and decided best thing was to sell half and keep the other half. This way if it does 10x in 10 years you won’t feel like you missed out. My opinion - put the other half in an index fund. This way you can’t really lose. Just remember to not judge how it’s doing during or right after a recession. Meanwhile go on vacation for 10 years and disconnect Reddit or any other financial news.

toothring

Since you're not just telling me I'm wrong, I'll reply :) As one example, I'm in Australia where the BYD Atto Y is listed below at least $20k cheaper than the Model Y. People have to recognise that car prices are different all around the world and US subsidies end at the border. And I'm not saying the Atto 3 is better, I'm just saying that since very few people need crazy performance, it's not 20k worse. https://www.carsguide.com.au/byd/atto-3/vs/tesla-model-y

Chromewave9

So they made more revenue but less profit than Tesla despite EV's being a loss-leader for every auto company except Tesla and BYD? You're actually proving why Ford is in trouble. Go check their Model E losses on EV's. It's massive. Ford revenue 2016: $151 billion Ford revenue 2022: $158 billion Ford projected revenue 2023: $165 billion Tesla revenue 2016: $7 billion Tesla revenue 2022: $81 billion Tesla expected 2023 revenue: $110 billion Ford's been in business for over a century. Tesla literally started mass manufacturing 5 years ago.

toothring

I don't know where you are in the world, but maybe I can add the BYD Atto 3 to your list?

putsRnotDaWae

He bought BYD as they were transitioning into EVs, extremely speculative. ChapGPT is the first iteration of actually useful AI bro... AI is just getting started.

putsRnotDaWae

>Yeah Munger bought BYD 10 years before the EV bubble. That's a smart play. >Buying AI stocks during the AI bubble is regarded. I mean this is begging the question fallacy. Whether or not it's a bubble now or later we won't know till years later.

DispassionateObs

Yeah Munger bought BYD 10 years before the EV bubble. That's a smart play. Buying AI stocks during the AI bubble is regarded.

777IRON

The investment was BYD. They make cars and batteries, and they’ve been around since 1995, with years of financials for him and Buffy to look through. You Google things fast but don’t really look very deep do you?

777IRON

Both of these examples of Graham’s spec growth plan and Mungers BYD investment were successful because they invested at a fair valuation not an inflated valuation. And your Munger quote is about buying companies UNDER fair value is harder to do now. It’s pretty easy to NOT invest in companies that are over valued.

FancisJU

So NVDA collaborates with BYD, what about Tessie? 

PortfolioIsAshes

Talking about fundamental analysis and then proceed to talk about BYD makes you look even more regarded than before. How's the bagholding? You have a lot of word vomit that amounts to you not knowing anything like me and rest of the sub. Also nice revisionist on GOOGL, GOOGL wasn't stable and only become so when Yahoo imploded from garbage acquisitions.

chris11114

The difference is that GOOGL already had a stable monopoly back then. NVDA definitely doesn’t have a monopoly in ML. For instance APPL has much more money in the tank and is already much better in regards to consumer products I wouldn’t bet on them not just scaling it up for extra profits. Your assumption is solely based on future growth which could end up going wrongly just because TSMC doesn’t behave the way NVDA likes to. I would rather bet on TSMC (being higher in the chain) than NVDA. Regarding TSLA if you actually wanna go the pump & dump route (how many promises has TSLA kept from its forecasts regarding the availability and specifications of technologies? Self driving? Tesla bot? Battery exchange? Solar roofs? Tesla Semi?…) why don’t you invest in Memecoins? PEPE had an enormous growth! At the end of the day BYD is much more interesting than TSLA which has to lower prices consecutively to keep up with the sales numbers. The cybertruck isn’t even out and Ford has already the F150 giving it hard competition. In the sports car range Porsche Taycan Turbo S has beaten the model S performance not only regarding performance but also built quality, safety features & quick charging. In the mid range tier KIA EV9 seems also to be a better pickup. Low-end tier (which TSLA doesn’t even offer although it was promised for years to have stuff below 20K) BYD is dominating the whole market and has surpassed VW in sales. Not to mention that APPL is working on a high-end fully self-driving car that can be called on-demand using a subscription system — GOOGL is also heading into the market. So good luck regarding the future performance of your TSLA stock! Maybe the issue relies in the fact that we are different investor types — short term gambling vs long term investing — could be the answer given the explanations you mentioned… Sorry I regret that I even replied (I‘m usually not in this sub active and just reading here & there based on notifications). WSB is obviously not the place for fundamental analysis. Hope you don’t end up in the “loss p*rn” section! Wish you all the best! Bye!

Fausterion18

They're both shit, BYD if you want to play Chinese EVs.

gregorsamsa12

Having a productive conversation is when you (no experience) blindly mock a fund manager (lots of experience) because CNN told you China is about to collapse? I'm open to having a very productive discussion about this! I just don't think "this is a good idea..." is a productive discussion, especially when you have no experience and are very clearly brainwashed. Personally, if I were investing in China I'd stay out of real estate companies. I'm in it for the long haul and I don't see them being worth it mainly due to demographic issues. I'd probably go more for companies like BYD Auto, since the Chinese middle class seems to love EVs and the rate at which they're selling is higher than that of Tesla (Tesla sold 2.2x as many in Q1 2022 compared to 1.6x as many in Q1 2023), in general companies that the middle class are likely to spend their growing wealth on. That's the reason I'd stay out of the USA, the middle class (or at least their wealth) is in rapid decline that I don't see ending (between 1983 and 2016, the amount of the American economy held by the middle class halved from 32% to 17%). It just feels to me like the US golden age has passed, and as China start playing with things like quantum computing and fusion, they're starting to decline faster. That's the reason I'd invest in India. I personally have no idea how long China's golden age is gonna last, but India is probably next in line after them. Real estate seems good, they have a healthy middle class, liberal democracy, I literally can't see a downside to investing in India. I'd still take Chinese companies aimed at the middle class, solely because China's is larger and has more cash to burn, but India's is also healthy if you've got moral objections to investing in China. I think real estate is also a very solid choice in India, especially outside of Mumbai and Delhi. There are a couple of other countries I think have a promising future. Bangladesh, Malaysia, Tanzania, Kenya, Rwanda, Ghana, etc.. These are probably quite hard for normal investors to get in to, though due to small stock markets, but I'm sure this guy had a valid reason for avoiding. Maybe liquidity? Might be easy enough investing in promising companies but then hard to find buyers? I guess if it's fund management he probably has to have a lot of cash available on short notice. Not a good sign for the US economy, though, whatever the reason.

CDM_Miller

Currently in China, keeping an eye out for some of these Chinese brands. A loglt of logos here I don't recognize, but I have noticed a decent number of BYD. Also seeing a surprisingly high number of Teslas actually. I knew they were here, but feels like I'm seeing them more regularly than back home on the east coast.

Titu3

Nio. Down 53% from when i bought it back in August 2021. Slowest bought more in the dip and am now up to 56 shares at an average price of $17,60. I still believe in the company, especially now that it has partnered up with Shell just like BYD. The fundamentals on the company are good too. I think the main thing holding it back is ofc the world wide recession but also the stigma on the Chinese automotive industry and Chinese manufacturing industry in general. I do believe in the future the Chinese manufacturing industry will be able to rid themselves of this 'bad quality product' stereotype, just like Japan did before them. It's the natural economic cycle a manufacturing economy goes through.

BenDarDunDat

Tesla is using Blade batteries in EU and China where safety regulations favor BYDs battery. If US required nail penetration tests like some other countries, then BYD and Toyota would have a monopoly.

flirbplurb

I agree with you that he’s harming the image of the company, at least in markets where Western political media is at the forefront, but I would downplay the impact of that. The Twitter drama is largely gone from mass media coverage, the news media has moved on to the next story. I can’t think of a major corporation that has had the rich asshole-ness of their CEO impact company performance. Elon hurts Tesla sales as much as Jeff Bezos hurts Amazon sales. I don’t really agree about sales stabilizing and dropping in the long term. The EV market will be dominated by Tesla, Chinese automakers (BYD, Geely/Volvo/Polestar, SAIC), and maybe Volkswagen. Check out the 100% battery vehicle sales chart [here](https://cleantechnica.com/2023/02/07/tesla-1-in-world-bev-sales-by-big-margin-2022-world-ev-sales-report/). In my view these major EV players will grow at the expense of other incumbent auto groups, especially Toyota, assuming widespread pure-EV adoption actually happens. Again, the stock plummeting doesn’t impact Tesla the company. They already got their cash when they first issued the stock.

PowerLion786

BYD's fundamental tech is battery. All Li battery capacities fade with time, but BYD's batteries fade quicker than many. If the research holds, then there will be some unhappy customers.

Mac_DG

I'm more intrigued buy him dumping BYD

putsRnotDaWae

Interesting people like Munger used to say things like this all time. Now he talks about Graham sheepishly admitting he made 50% of all his money in a then speculative growth company (GEICO) not his traditional below book value "can't lose" approach. And Munger saying his greatest play was actually super risky EV play in BYD.

putsRnotDaWae

Ben Graham later admitted in his old age that 50% of his returns came from what he thought was a more speculative growth play in Geico not his buying below book value approach. Munger also said his best play in terms of returns was BYD a very speculative tech growth play in EVs.

AbruptRope

Even better: BYD, its main competitor is TSLA

Different_Highway_18

Tesla. Main competitor right now is BYD.

complicatedAloofness

"unmatched" "exception of BYD"

waylon106

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TechnicalWhore

Its the flavor of the month and makes CNBC pretend to know what is driving the market. Sometimes I really get the sense they may be shills. I loved that Evans actually asked the CEO of McDonalds how they were using AI. Not same store sales; not margins or labor cost increases - AI. This was the same person that said months the rising cost of oil/gas really was not a big deal for the lower class. Tone deaf. Cramer seems to think NVIDIA is the only player in AI. Truly hilarious. There is market research out there. You wouldn't know Google - the creator of Tensorcores - has been doing it for 20+ years internally. And of course Tesla has their own internal design etc. The barrier to entry is zero. On the other side they have been saying Musk was too busy/dsitracted with Twitter and SpaceX and Tesla was suffering. Well he now has a CEO and the Tesla stock did not go up today. Meanwhile Warren Buffett said Tesla was an exceptionally well run company and everyone else is desperately trying to catch up. Mind you Buffett owns a lot of BYD - the #1 EV company in China (units sold) due to a much broader portfolio. At much lower margins though.

Guitarmine

How concerned are you about competition that's not Tesla. GM already had the H2, Ford is introducing other EVs outside Lightning and Mach-E and then there are European brands but perhaps the bigger concern the Chinese. BYD and others have released pretty great cars. Rivian is great but their products are really expensive. Can they keep their prices high with this competition? If not it's yet another obstacle for getting profitable since they can't do much about volume.

absoluteunitVolcker

Always worth listening to the annual meeting of BRK despite lots of repetition and stupid questions. One thing that stood out to me was Buffett and Munger going back to shitting on automakers for being a terrible industry. Was surprised because I thought they were super long BYD. Didn't realize they dumped a significant number of shares recently, 95M out of 230M. Still have a lot but apparently they bought it close to $1 and got out $60+. Insane returns.

Efficient-Jeweler519

https://insideevs.com/news/665731/byd-plugin-car-sales-april2023/ BYD owns Tesla ass in china bud and they're expanding across the globe. Elon going.to get dunked on.

r4rthrowawaysoon

Looks like ole Warren sold some BYD so he can keep pumping Apple indefinitely. Soon we will be in the Middle of recession and he’s going to have Apple hitting all time highs.

No_Scar_135

BYD is not Boyd Gaming. These AI bot articles are junk..

tenfan45

bullish: they outperform all legacy carmakers (jap/koreans/eu/us) in EVs by wide margin and there is no way for them to match tesla in any way bearish: tesla is losing to BYD and other chinese also bearish: market seems to price in the first point, but not the second

Ehralur

Chinese carmakers are definitely going to be the biggest globally after Tesla, but so far there's really not that much competition yet. BYD sells a lot of EVs, but they don't have the profits. All the others are still losing money. They're doing better than legacy OEMs, but Tesla is still in a league of its own even in China. As for Chinese nationalism, the opposite is true. In China having Western products (iPhones, Nike's, etc., and you can add Teslas to that list) is a status symbol. All they care about is having the latest tech (e.g. cars with cool software, not a VW) for the lowest price, and if it's a Western product that's only a plus.

otheraccount27

People in here are focusing way too much on the US. Chinas auto market is twice the size and growing. Going forward, there will be more cars sold in China than in Europe and the US combined. Performance in China will be make or break for Tesla. They've been doing well lately, but competition is strong and they've had to cut prices significantly. It won't be easy to keep matching the prices of Chinese brands in the future. Keep an eye on further developments in China and don't underestimate chinese nationalism when it comes to brand preference (the same is true for the EU btw: european brands will always have the home advantage there). Personally, I'm long on BYD.

waylon106

Companies ranked by number of employees: 1. 🇺🇸 Walmart: 2,300,000 2. 🇺🇸 Amazon: 1,541,000 3. 🇹🇼 Foxconn: 826,608 4. 🇮🇪 Accenture: 738,000 5. 🇩🇪 Volkswagen: 645,868 6. 🇮🇳 Tata Consultancy: 616,171 7. 🇩🇪 Deutsche Post: 583,816 8. 🇺🇸 United Parcel Service: 500,000 9. 🇺🇸 Kroger: 500,000 10. 🇺🇸 Home Depot: 500,000 11. 🇷🇺 Gazprom: 468,000 12. 🇨🇳 Agricultural Bank: 455,174 13. 🇺🇸 Target: 450,000 14. 🇨🇳 China Mobil: 449,934 15. 🇨🇳 ICBC: 425,000 16. 🇫🇷 Teleperformance: 420,000 17. 🇨🇳 PetroChina: 417,173 18. 🇳🇱 Ahold Delhaize: 413,000 19. 🇫🇷 Sodexo: 412,000 20. 🇺🇸 Starbucks: 402,000 . 25. 🇯🇵 Toyota: 375,396 34. 🇮🇳 Infosys: 346,845 35. 🇬🇧 Tesco: 345,000 36. 🇺🇸 FedEx: 345,000 45. 🇺🇸 PepsiCo: 315,000 46. 🇩🇪 Siemens: 311,000 48. 🇺🇸 Costco: 304,000 51. 🇨🇳 BYD: 288,186 56. 🇨🇭 Nestle: 276,000 58. 🇩🇰 ISS: 269,299 61. 🇮🇳 Mahindra: 260,000 63. 🇧🇷 JBS: 250,000 69. 🇯🇵 Panasonic: 241,423 74. 🇮🇳 Reliance Industries: 236,334 76. 🇲🇽 Walmex: 231,927 78. 🇺🇸 Microsoft: 221,000 82. 🇬🇧 HSBC: 219,697 86. 🇨🇦 George Weston: 215,298 88. 🇯🇵 Honda: 204,035 93. 🇺🇸 Alphabet (Google): 190,234 98. 🇯🇵 Canon: 184,034 100. 🇨🇳 China Railway Group: 180,000 107. 🇺🇸 Ford: 173,000 109. 🇩🇪 Mercedes-Benz: 172,425 119: 🇺🇸 Apple: 164,000 131. 🇫🇷 LVMH: 157,953 132. 🇺🇸 Boeing: 156,000 153. 🇺🇸 Dell: 133,000 165. 🇺🇸 Tesla: 127,855 180. 🇩🇪 BMW: 118,909 204. 🇸🇪 H&M: 106,522 228. 🇨🇭 Novartis: 102,000 300. 🇺🇸 Cisco: 83,300

Efficient-Jeweler519

https://www.investors.com/news/tesla-stock-vs-byd-stock-comparing-ev-giants-tsla-byddf-ev-stock/ Psst , hey Tesla bulls, BYD is #1 in China and it's just the beginning of them eat your lunch.

ShadowLiberal

The only new type of battery that's anywhere close to market today that doesn't use Lithium is Sodium-Ion, and BYD is reportedly going to unveil the first ever sodium-ion battery car in the next few months, it'll be a low range commuter vehicle (which is a more common EV in China). That said, while Sodium is cheaper and more plentiful then Lithium, Sodium-Ion batteries are NOT going to replace Lithium batteries for several reasons: * There's too much demand for EV's for any one type of battery to fulfill all of the demand. This is part of why there was projected to be a big Lithium shortage in the coming years. * Sodium-Ion is heavier and can't hold as much power as Lithium batteries. There's not really a better material for power storage then Lithium, this is a problem for every alternate. In order to get the same range from Sodium-Ion batteries as Lithium ones you'll need more space for the batteries and need to add more weight to the vehicle (making the vehicle less efficient). * Because of the above, Lithium batteries like LFP will likely be the dominant choice in the higher end vehicle markets, and segments where people need more range. Sodium-Ion is more likely to be a choice for cheaper vehicles made more for day to day commuting then long road trips. That said, Sodium-Ion batteries **are** very likely to replace Lithium based batteries when it comes to power storage (like for solar farms, etc.), because it's cheaper, and the added weight doesn't really introduce any new problems with lost efficiency or limited space. That said full disclosure, I'm an ALB investor. I bought into it at basically the perfect time at COVID lows. Kind of wishing I had sold at over $300 some months ago, but ALB is a long term holding for me. IMO I think they're going to grow an insane amount by 2030 when IMO ICE vehicles will be almost completely dead in the new car market.

waylon106

The best-selling cars by country in 2022: 🇦🇷 Argentina: Fiat Cronos (38,769) 🇦🇺 Australia: Toyota Hilux (64,391) 🇧🇷 Brazil: Fiat Strada (112,456) 🇨🇳 China: BYD Song Plus (459,424) 🇩🇰 Denmark: Peugeot 208 (3,920) 🇫🇷 France: Peugeot 208 (88,812) 🇩🇪 Germany: VW Golf (84,282) 🇮🇳 India: Maruti Wagon R (217,317) 🇮🇩 Indonesia: Daihatsu Gran Max (65,062) 🇮🇪 Ireland: Hyundai Tucson (6,444) 🇮🇹 Italy: Fiat Panda (105,384) 🇳🇱 Netherlands: Toyota Yaris (11,178) 🇳🇴 Norway: Tesla Model Y (17,356) 🇵🇱 Poland: Toyota Corolla (21,819) 🇵🇹 Portugal: Peugeot 2008 (6,001) 🇷🇺 Russia: Lada Granta (99,356) 🇪🇸 Spain: Hyundai Tucson (21,985) 🇸🇪 Sweden: Volvo XC 40 (14,252) 🇨🇭 Switzerland: Toyota Yaris (5,572) 🇹🇷 Turkey: Fiat Egea (68,779) 🇬🇧 UK: Nissan Qashqai (42,704) 🇺🇸 USA: Ford F-Series (653,957)

pibbleberrier

BYD is probabaly one of the handful of legitimate contender out of China that’s traded publicly. BYD went from a humble battery maker to compete ing head to head with TSLA for EV king. Is the top battery supplier of the world and even supply their competitor TSLA batteries. Even their traditional gasoline cars are doing well domestically and in selected international market. It was a big part of buffet’s portfolio for decade. What is your rationality to rotate out of BYD for India company? What India company is in the same market space as BYD and is even a contender? Or is the rationale simply because it a Chinese company.

ShadowLiberal

> However with their installed base they can likely ramp production faster than other EV's and if they move fast enough to lock up resources other will have a hard time getting raw materials to even produce EV's. We don't even have a quarter of the copper needed to electrify transportation. Never mind things like cobalt, lithium, and nickel. Others have been working to lock in their supplies for years, Ford is hardly the first to try this. Also there's more types of batteries then just Lithium, which will greatly ease the supply issues overtime. A lot of the companies ahead of the curve have been switching to LFP batteries for at least some of their vehicles for example, which don't use Cobalt at all. Ford was reportedly looking into this earlier (which pissed a lot of US politicians off (even though Tesla already does this) because they were looking at a Chinese supplier, since that's where the leaders and biggest suppliers of LFP batteries are located). And more recently Sodium Ion batteries have made big progress, BYD has basically said that they'll be announcing an EV in the next few months with such a battery (which would make it the first EV in the world to use such batteries). Most likely Sodium-Ion batteries will be used for battery storage with renewable energy and low range EV's.

CCRthunder

I guess it depends on what you mean by competitors. 1. Ford had to shut down for a fire thing so it didnt produce that much this quarter raising cost per vehicle but that wont be true in the future (or the past). 2. We really dont know how much its costing GM to make its EVs since it hasnt really started producing equivalent ones and its bestselling one the Bolt is being discontinued. 3. If you are asking why vs Tesla or BYD that is easy they produce way more cars and all their employees and equipment are meant to build EVs.

Leburgerking

BYD? They grew their net income 10x YOY

isdbull

The thing is, both are quite dependent, with a noticeable bias toward American corporations' dependency on Chinese supply and manufacturing. But you're right about Joe. His agenda is more toxic and harmful to the nation than any foreign party could even dream of achieving from the outside. But I think long-term, beyond the short-lived ripples of politics, to ignore good Chinese companies is as much of a mistake as it is to ignore good American ones. Look at what happened with BYD for example. Were Buffett & Co. wrong to invest? I don't think so.

Evergladescity

I thought I was buying BYD the EV company but was actually buying Boyd Gaming the whole time. Worked out well.

HaveBlue_2

I made some money on BYD stocks (american versions) and GTFO. India could, in theory, take over and replace China's workforce. Trade patents might be a slight bit safer in India as well.

51674

BYD is like 11,000$ per, TSLA is stuck btw a rock and a hard place lol

jabbafart

BYD says it's effectively impossible. They probably know what they're talking about more than CWood.

Jordykins850

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2023/04/28/california-to-only-allow-zero-emission-trucks-in-the-state-by-2045/?sh=3c2c6f475bd9 If that’s true then why did Forbes use their truck and not Tesla or PCAR or Volvo or BYD or Daimler for article? 🤔

stocks223344

Tesla is losing in China. It cannot compete with Chinese manufacturers like Nio or BYD. This prompted Tesla to cut down its prices, three times. Tesla’s biz model has finally reached its limit.

Jordykins850

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2023/04/28/california-to-only-allow-zero-emission-trucks-in-the-state-by-2045/ Did they use the Tesla for the cover photo? **NO.** The Amazon-flagged BYD? **NO.** How about Daimler, Volvo? **NOPE.** PCAR? **No, sir.** They **USED THE NIKOLA TRE BEV.** Forbes coming in hot. Once again, Nikola proven to be real now 😴

extremetechfund

Batteries are a highly fragmented industry with lots of competing technologies and players. Investing in China is also risky due to the geopolitical risk, otherwise I would have probably recommended CATL given that they have a large market share, or perhaps BYD. You could have a look at Samsung. There are also some smaller US players like Enovix, but this should be seen as a speculative investment, it might go to zero if they can't scale up their manufacturing.

joeg26reddit

BYD Burning You daily lol

Vegetable-South2520

So you’re saying competition is coming? Where have I heard that before? Please go check the number of cars other manufacturers are selling. GM is even shutting down their best selling EV next year. ID4 software is a joke. Toyota doesn’t want to make EVs. BYD is the only other serious one and theirs plenty of meat for 2 EV makers to exist.

JaredFlys

BYD up 5%, TSLA down 4%. Just shows how overvalued Tesla is

broheim85

I made 700k shorting the tech bubble last year, mostly EVs, am running 50% as big here after getting to around a 20% position in Dec. I will hold thanks and no I drove a Tesla last august and rain leaked through the door and it thought it was open while I’m driving my family on the highway. My 2013 Audi Q3 is a better car than a new Tesla. I will buy Tesla or BYD only after build quality goes up, otherwise why risk it with my family. VW makes fantastic cars and they can buy a wonderful 500km range battery now from CATL. CATL has leapfrogged Tesla, don’t get me wrong Tesla is worth a lot (unlike the copycats) but this is the car industry we are talking about.

FancisJU

You are in the group as Buffett, I guess. He owns BYD

plu5on3

They skipped the chinese autoshow why? Because BYD and friends have better cars and they will look like complete idiots

plu5on3

Have you seen BYD and Nio. Last 20 years companies that setup partnerships in China gets their IP stolen. This is just a bread and butter case of CCP using money as incentive to control individuals

Afraid_Courage890

I will only buy BYD

cheekytikiroom

Yeah. People flipping out over Tesla margins. But Teslas margins are much better than anyone else’s - except BYD (China). Tesla is planning to starve its potential competitors of any margin at all.

Ok-ChildHooOd

Their 4680 cells might turn out good with more investment, but right now there's nothing unique about them that gives them an edge. Their batteries are still inferior to BYD and Panasonic, which they're buying from for most of their cars.

Aedan2016

Hybrids are not. They are just as expensive as BEV but still run in gas. You do know that you don’t need lithium to run a BEV right? You can use a nickel or sodium battery that will cut costs dramatically and service shorter ranges. BYD is doing this in China. If your perception of BEV is high end, I suggest you look at what other places have done.

ShadowLiberal

Indeed, I mean it's inevitable with falling battery prices & continuous improvements overtime that EV's were going to become just as cheap as ICE vehicles sooner or later. What's likely to help make EV's even more commoditizatied and cheaper overtime is the adoption of Sodium Ion Batteries for more lower end & economical models. Essentially Sodium Ion Batteries are cheaper than Lithium Ion, but heavier and somewhat less energy dense (meaning they won't have as much range as Lithium Ion). BYD is almost certainly going to be bringing the first car using Sodium Ion Batteries to the market in China sooner or later according to the rumors, and other auto makers are almost certainly going to follow. (Side note: I'm not saying Lithium Ion Batteries are dead, they'll still be used for vehicles with more range, and those that are more premium vehicles. The addition of Sodium ion batteries overtime will help fix some battery supply issues)

ProShortKingAction

I mean in the American market yeah, but at this point BYD is selling more plug in vehicles than Tesla and is growing production faster than them so will likely soon beat them in EVs in general. Also their new Seagull model is going to be selling for 11k$

ProShortKingAction

I mean the quality of a BYD EV is about the same as a Tesla (not good) and their new Seagull and Dolphin models are a fraction of the price

ProShortKingAction

A bunch of Chinese EV manufacturers had huge news at an expo two days ago that spelled bad news for Tesla. BYD for example will be making a 11K$ electric vehicle called the BYD Seagull that is likely to take up a large portion of marketshare in Europe and further prove that Tesla doesn't have much of a chance in the Chinese market either. Tesla is priced like they will become some sort of EV monopoly but really they look like they'll just be the EV Ford and should probably be priced similarly.

ProShortKingAction

Is this because of the BYD news or has that not fully hit in the states yet?

That-Whereas3367

LMAO. BYD is the largest EV manufacturer in the world. It is also largest the largest *overall* manufacturer in China. It sales are growing at more than twice the rate of TSLA.

ibalz

As an EV enthusiast I do believe Telsa is here to stay most likely but will never be as dominant as early preachers used to say. I believe they will likely be overtaken by some legacy makers as they quickly catch up. In fact, this trend is already happening. As of 2023 BYD exceed Tesla in [EV sales](https://insideevs.com/news/660906/byd-outsold-tesla-2022-income-skyrockets-400-percent/) in the Chinese market. Yes those numbers include plug-in hybrids but the trend is obvious, Tesla is losing market share rapidly. In Europe the EV selection is dramatically increasing to the point that most EVs sold are [not Tesla's ](https://insideevs.com/news/651295/europe-plugin-car-sales-december2022/). Telsa now only has North America firmly in their grip with an outstanding dominance of this contents market. However, I feel that it's likely that as Ford, GM and Volkswagen (to name a few) continue to release better and better models their edge will decrease. Barring some monumental step up in technology from Tesla (to which we have no indication there will be any). I see them eventually being just another car company out of many. They will have their niche fans and that's it.

wegwerf874

I live and work in one of the richest places in Europe and the Alps where EVs adoption is similarly high as in Norway. While almost everyone was buying a Model 3 three years ago (and a Model S earlier), now it's all about Hyundai & KIAs, Volkswagen's IDs, and Mercedes' EQs. VW's have problems in with Chinese customers (the cars are boring as hell), but seem to be all right for many Europeans. The other brands are almost universally praised. Even more, the upcoming Chinese brands (Aiways, BYD, Xpeng) will be very interesting due to their cost-utility-value.

CanWeTalkHere

BYD is coming for TSLA's margins. They are fucked in China as a minimum and those BYD prices are so good, TSLA is likely fucked everywhere in time.

iqisoverrated

You mean besides... \- highest customer satisfaction (which usually translates to brand loyalty) \- vertical integration (only matched by BYD) \- world largest charging network \- rapidly growing energy business arm \- profitable insurance business \- profitable *EV* business (which almost no other car maker has. Because you can't argue "But look at Toyota, VW, Ford, ... they have x% profits...because that's due to their ICE branch whose days are numbered and their *EV* businesses are all negative or net zero at best) \- biggest draw for the best and the brightest engineers \- only serious player in getting autonomous driving working door-2-door \- (and a couple dark horses like Tesla bot or Dojo) ​ ..no...can't think of anything /s

Pingo6666

Today's hot topic is obviously Tesla, and of course, Starship, which is its sibling, coming in a few hours. Tesla's price reduction is clearly aimed at countering the invasion of Chinese manufacturers, including BYD. Since 2023, by the end of March, BYD has sold 265,000 pure electric vehicles in China, while Tesla has sold 229,000. Several traditional Chinese automakers and new energy companies are chasing at a monthly growth rate of no less than 45%, which will cause Elon Musk to lose sleep. He may be able to lay low on Twitter, but the entire Chinese company is laying low. What I want to say is that among all American technology companies, only Elon Musk knows how to compete and cooperate with the Chinese. Therefore, Tesla's price reduction strategy is absolutely correct. With a gross margin of no more than 20%, they can force all competitors to continue bleeding. So, I am very optimistic about this madman. I will start buying at $166 and stop at $120.

jbreeze42

2022 total EV production was around 800k. Tesla was around 550k of that 800k. In 2023 they are estimated to produce around 1.2 million car. More than double. They are opening new plants/factories in multiple locations all over the world. Telsa will produce over 2 million vehicles in 2024. In comparison, every other company that produces EV cars or trucks produced about 20k each. That’s per company. There isn’t a company that can produce at Tesla’s speed. Ford has a backlog of 200k orders and in their estimate it’s going to take about 3 years to fulfill them. That’s 200/3= at most 70k trucks per year. And that’s a lot compared to most other EV companies. Lucid, ruvian, ford, BYD, Porsche, GM produce 20k or less per year. Think about that. In 2023 Tesla will produce over a million car!! And every year that number goes up significantly. I know you are concerned with the price cuts. But think about this for a second. If every body buys a Tesla, they are not buying any other car. Tesla can saturate the market and then they own that customer for years to come. Average car is owned for 14 years. That’s 14 years. That’s millions of teslas and counting on the road for years to come before any other company comes even close to producing cars as fast as Tesla. By the time the other companies catch up it will be too late. Tesla is KING!!!!

jbreeze42

2022 total EV production was around 800k. Tesla was around 550k of that 800k. In 2023 they are estimated to produce around 1.2 million car. More than double. They are opening new plants/factories in multiple locations all over the world. Telsa will produce over 2 million vehicles in 2024. In comparis