FV

Tough_Plant_5680

Hell yeah AVLNF 

elScorXXo


Happy_Discussion_536

Game store is still overvalued. FV is around $15. It's worth buying below then.

Happy_Discussion_536

GME is still overvalued. FV is around $15. It's worth buying below then.

wtbpolariscookbook

I bought GOOG near April lows, was my largest position but trimmed at bit at 220 and most of it at 280. It’s a great business so feel good about owning the remainder but would probably exit if it realizes considerable upside beyond here and things overheat even more. There is no fear baked in to the stock price, it’s trading in line with peers and probably close to FV. The easy money here was made when it was irrationally mispriced in April. And really the prospects of the business, save for the antitrust ruling, haven’t changed since then. And it’s not a “hedge” against anything. I’m not a permabear or an AI Luddite but the current market environment closely mirrors speculative regimes like 2020-2021. It is highly probable that tech as a sector will experience a correction/drawdown that will similarly affect all of the MAG7. People trying to call tops or bubbles are idiots, all you can do as an individual investor is to be conscious of the risks you are taking and assess whether they are being adequately compensated. If you wanted to actually hedge against a tech drawdown, you should gradually de-risk your portfolio so you have cash to deploy if/when it happens. Or go long defensive quality type sectors that have been overlooked for the past year or so that will get rotated in to.

daviddjg0033

I am not sure what FV is of this stock after the dilution

SmallCapsOnly

Sure you could, but your extra payments would work for you more if invested in equities over the life of the loan. You would need to pay $1,300 extra per month to pay off the 50 year loan in 15 years. Those same $1,300 payments(15,600 annually) if instead invested in the market would grow to a value of $12,432,000(adjusted for inflation) over a 50 year period assuming 12% return on average assuming 3% avg inflation But now you’re thinking “okay but after I pay the loan off in 15 years I can put all that cashflow going to the mortgage and extra payments into the house into the market instead and that would be better” no it won’t. N: 35 years (not 50 because you spent 15 pumping into the mortgage instead) I: 8.7% (12% growth avg adjusted down for 3% annual inflation) PV: 0 PMTS: $40,864($15,600 from the additional $1,300 monthly payment and $20,264 from the mortgage payments excluding prop taxes and insurance cuz you still gotta pay that shit) FV: $8,953,000 So no it was still better to put that additional $1,300 to work and pay the mortgage down normally over 50 years. Thank you for reading my Ted talk. Also, buy $LENZ if you made it this far 😘

blueberrysmasher

Moot discussion as Tesla's FV targets are nearly improbable. Probable if Chinese EVs weren't dominating foreign markets at they have been doing.

Pocket_Juice_

me when the 100x PE ratio and FV companies in a staglflating economy aren’t infinitely going up💔💔

xk2600

every “bubble” flows differently. This really isn’t a bubble as much as a loop of dependency. Comparing AI bubble to dotcom is bad form IMHO. More like mortgage backed security and swaps exposure in 2008 as the comparable. The problem is right now all the risk is hedged by investors that only see FUTURE VALUE. Nvidia is so worried they’re going to undersell hardware or miss out on the future revenues they are trading discounts on current chips limiting their immediate margin on mostly guaranteed losses for ownership of investment in these AI companies in the hopes that one will win big and pay for all the failures. This effectively makes NVIDIA, Oracle, and Microsoft some of the largest angel investors in AI. Keep in mind AI is the product, not the Chip. All this FV leaves venture capital and banks more than willing to overvalue the future especially when everyone “knows” this will change everything… they just arent sure how yet. Granted, there will be companies that fail big from overplaying their hand with the possibilities of such potential. Personally, I do believe retail traders will hold the bag on this one and private equity will come out unscathed. This rollercoaster is far from over.

Canamerican726

PV = FV / (1+r)\^n; FV = 128 r = 0.088 n = 2 PV = 128 / 1.1664 = 109.77 Bad rounding lol, $110 I guess.

Puzzled_Giraffe6625

Hey! Wealthsimple is giving away a $1M home! Use my link to get $25 when you join, and enter the giveaway in the app. Terms and conditions apply. 8FV4YA https://wealthsimple.com/invite/8FV4YA 🎁

tlmarcott

I love both but dont need to model that often with OS. Always tracking portfolio and screening new opportunities with FV.

pythonTuxedo

You are correct that this is not interest. The price increasing at a rate of 7% per year looks exactly like compound growth. If you start with $100, at the end of year 1 you will have $107, at the end of year 2 you will have $114.49. You can work out how much you will have after n years using FV=PV(1+r)^(n)

St3w1e0

There's some even cheaper ones. 9361 is logistics related, 0.4x FV and the space has been getting takeovers. 7898 owns loads of New Zealand forest (actually one of the only ways to own NZ land as a foreign investor) yet trades at 0.25-0.5x fair value.

LiveLifeLevered

FV function in excel dawg.

00Anonymous

You have a great notion, though the execution needs a little work. To start off, this will be a 2 step process. The first step is to use a tvm calculator to determine our retirement nest egg goal. The second step will plot the way to achieving it.  Step 1: determining the total we need for retirement.  Here we take our desired annual income and multiply it by the number of years we expect to need it.  In this example, lets assume we retire at age 75 and expect to need 20 years of income and our required income is 100k per year.  >20×100,000 = 2 million  We need 2 million of today's money to cover retirement. To account for inflation we now need to use the tvm calculator to increase our goal number by our estimate for the future average rate of inflation between now and retirement.  >To do this we enter 2 million in the PV field, and enter some estimate of inflation in the interest rate field - in this case let's put 5%. In the payment field we put zero.  Then, we set the number of periods to the number of years to retirement multplied 12 months (inflation is measured monthly), let's use 20 ×12=240. Lastly, we solve for FV and get a total of 5,425,280.57, which is our nominal target to ensure we have the buying power of 2 million of today's money 20 years into the future.  Step 2 How to get to target Option A: the Bogglehead Calculation If you intend to VOO and chill, we can use the tvm calculator to figure out how much we need to buy each month to reach our goal of 5,425,280.57. First we change the interest rate to 8% (reflecting long term average s&p 500 returns). Then we set the PV to zero or the actual value of what you have invested so far. For this example we assume zero investments.  The number of periods stays the same. Lastly we leave payment blank and hit the pmt button to solve. This leaves us with 9,210.68 that we must invest in voo each month over the next 20 years to reach our target.  Option B: Figuring a target rate of return If you don't have a spare 9k each month to invest, all is not lost. We can use the tvm to solve for a target rate of return, using a payment number that works with our current budget. Assuming we can invest 1k per month, what rate of return do we need to reach goal in time?  We replace the 9k payment with 1k and leave the interest rate blank and hit the int button to solve. We get a target annual rate of return of 23.633%. So we'll  need a much more aggresive strategy than voo and chill or we need to find a way to increase our monthly contribution! Now that you have the hang if it you can model out different inflation and investment contribution levels to tailor your financial plan to your investment strategy. Easzy peezy! Note on interest rates: some tvm calculators want annualized interest rates and allow you to specify the frequency of compounding (ie monthly in this case) and some expect you to divide the annualized rate by the number of compounding periods per year, which in this example is 12. Likewise, when solving for INT some tvm calculators will return and annual rate and others will return the periodic rate and you'll have to multiply by the number of periods per year to get the annual rate. So be sure to read the how-to or manual for your calculator.  Note on sign conventions: the way the math works is that PV and FV must have opposite signs. This is just an artifact of the formula. When reporting PV and FV, be sure to take their absolute values to prevent confusion. Personally, I prefer the PV to be positive (unsigned) and the FV to be negative signed. 

ArthurDent4200

If you have excel, or probably just about any spreadsheet available. 2500 Monthly Deposit 120 number of months 9% Yearly growth =FV(0.09/12,120,-2500) or if the above three numbers are starting at A1: =FV(A3/12,A2,-A1) Result at 9% is $483,786 Of course, with the SP500 your 10 year average could be much higher or lower. Art

Happy_Discussion_536

Don't shoot me. I'm not an ape. I don't own any shares. But game company might actually be undervalued if they can sustain their current SGA levels. They also grew net sales an insane amount. I'm genuinely curious how. With bond income, their current earnings suggest it is worth $10B-$11B now. Which is what it's trading at now. Add in a little premium for the meme status and it might be FV or cheap.

Happy_Discussion_536

Not shorting at all. I'll buy at $15 I think it's FV there.

Critical_Concert_689

AFAIK, they have no moat. And their customers are fleeing in droves. And they have no new products yet - though they said they're redesigning like...30% of their entire product line ("desperation"). Every international expansion is seeing trouble. Trouble in China. Trouble in India. FV is like $100. ...So it'll probably rebound to the moon.

s_nes

Use your own jokes https://www.reddit.com/r/wallstreetbets/s/6YQ3FV0grg

mklomp7

Well many analysts have LULUs FV anywhere from $315-$350/share. Tariffs have been priced in from the first massive dump & their business adaptation overseas should definitely outperform the minor setbacks within the US from tariff regulations. Therefore, should go up but that being said I’m not smart or rich.. hopefully this changes both of those setbacks.

Happy_Discussion_536

It seems to have hit a floor. But it's so overvalued (IMO FV is around $7.5B) that I don't see how they can get the price up a lot without grifting and hype.

Happy_Discussion_536

I honestly don't think so. But FV of company is around $7.5B. I'd buy it if it went there.

rackoblack

Morningstar has them at three stars, a hold. Their FV price is $120, so their barely undervalued. Their strong buy (\*\*\*\*\*) price is $72. Read their writeups if you want to see why (Premium is free at the library or subscribe yourself).

rackoblack

Morningstar has them at 80% of FV, four star buy.

rackoblack

NVO is four stars, fair value (FV) share price is $71

Happy_Discussion_536

What is the actual FV of game store? I say it's somewhere around $12-$13. They have net cash of $10/share and cash flow positive, no more bleeding. So it is minimum worth that.

IncidentSome4403

Just another retard but 40 is about where I’ve got FV rn

groceriesN1trip

They’ve had this FV estimate for a while now

WPG_Strong

blows my mind how a ghey bear can look at a 20 billion profit generating power house trading at 50% FV and think this is a good stock to short

ConfidentTapwater

🤣 nah FV is $1,000

Marko-2091

Next step in the meme play: the D-FV guy posts some sort of meme. Elon already did, it is only that other guy

tired_ani

I love their FV and basic summary of the company. Such a nice starting point.

elgrandorado

Morningstar switching Analysts and jacking up their fair value estimate on Constellation Software is really funny to me. I like looking at their FV estimates for low growth and their analyst reports in general. The problem I have is the way their analysts estimate FV for high growth companies is often SO conservative.

sundubone

VOO (Vanguard S&P 500 ETF) 500 of the largest U.S. companies or VTI (Vanguard Total Stock Market ETF) which is about 100% of the U.S. stock market. VTI is more diversified so more risk. Conservative scenario would be around 8% total returns less expenses with dividends reinvested so 175k invested for 15 years; future value would be roughly $550K Optimistic is around 12% so FV is estimated to be about 1 million. Use a future value calculator and play with the numbers

Rando1ph

I did one trade and made a spreadsheet; I've got the data. 10 shares at 100.27. filled 1002.70 1:12 PM. Sold 10 shares at 100.28 filled 1002.80 at 2:45 PM. So yeah, just a dime on a grand... so 50 cents a day, Which gives me 133.90 a year compounding (=FV(13.39%,1,0,1000)\*-1) I mean it is there, if someone wants to put in the effort.

Rando1ph

I did one trade and made a spreadsheet; I've got the data. 10 shares at 100.27. filled 1002.70 1:12 PM. Sold 10 shares at 100.28 filled 1002.80 at 2:45 PM. So yeah, just a dime on a grand... so 50 cents a day, Which gives me 133.90 a year compounding (=FV(13.39%,1,0,1000)\*-1) I mean it is there, if someone wants to put in the effort.

uqubar

MP News... [https://www.investors.com/news/mp-materials-stock-soars-pentagon-launches-rare-earths-war-china/?mod=IBD\_FV](https://www.investors.com/news/mp-materials-stock-soars-pentagon-launches-rare-earths-war-china/?mod=IBD_FV)

SukaSupreme

I've mostly bet on small cap and often pre-profit companies hoping for eventual high returns. Especially bullish on Scandium Canada (SCD.TO), and I'm up a high double digit on Aclara Resources (ARA.TO). Also in MILI Military Metals and FV Frontier Lithium.

Extra_Progress_7449

Fixed-Income ETFs are good but DO require cyclical management....they are not set and forget; they are also not Value-Based products, meaning the Value is not in the strike but the Distributions. Almost all the good ones are 1x Leveraged...the great ones are 2-3x but annual distributions (so Day-trader products). \---- If you want comfort without management, look into Preferred Stocks (no DRIP)....make sure you buy in less than its Face Value (FV). For instance, >$STRK is currently at a $5-6 Premium ($105.68/sh), it has a $100 FV; however, it pays $8/yr (8% \* FV) with a quarter distribution of $2; Technically you would have recovered the Premium after the 3rd quarter and it is Perpetual with no real Call Data, it has a Earliest Call Date. >$SOJD is currently at a $5+/- Discount ($19.93/sh), it has a $25 FV, pays out 1.2375 (4.95% \* FV) each year with distributions quarterly (0.309375/qtr); It has a Call Date of 1/30/2080, yes 2-0-8-0 You need to assess your own risk and ability to manage, that will identify which instruments you choose. LETFs can exceed 70% ROI in a single year; MSTY is on track to be 130-160% Yield.....Their caveat is NAV erosion if mismanaged or their strategy is too weak for the holdings IV.

Stonktraderr69420

Yes this is the compound interest formula. Future Value equals the principle or initial deposit. Multiplied by one plus the annual interest rate divided by the number of times the interest compounds per year. Risen to the times interest compounds times the number of years. FV: Future Value P: Principal investment R: Annual interest rate as decimal ie 9%=.09 N: Number of times interest compounds per year T: Number of years money is invested for Example: FV=1000(1+.05/4)^(4*15) FV would equal $2107.18. So this is i invest 1000 over 15 years at a 5% annual interest rate and in this instance compounding 4x per year. Compounding rates will differ depending on different investment products/vehicles. This formula also doesn't account for dollar cost averaging so this FV amount can substantially change due to consistent investments. I am not a financial advisor, and all investments are subject to market loss.

Stonktraderr69420

FV=P(1+r/n)^(nt)

VegasBjorne1

To make a point, use this math equation as to compounded returns… Future Value = Contribution x (1 + *i*)^n, where *i* = average rate of return, n = number of years invested. For example: Let’s assume $6,000 IRA contribution, 8% average annual stock market return and 45 years to retirement. The FV equals $207,493. That’s just one year of a single contribution! Use the same numbers, but delay 20 years and only 25 years of investment time. The FV equals only $49,091! It is only a quarter of the size! Using that same formula allows one to play “what-if” on returns, contributions and investment years. It’s a good tool to understand the importance of investing early.

St3w1e0

All the modelling I've run gets me to $200-250 as a base case scenario. Discounting back at 10% that gets a FV of $100-150 depending on whether you think ASTS can reach scale in 5-10 years. So I would be a seller in that range.

Scrapper_John

I just used a time value of money calculator. PV:-395,340.74 PMT: -1,958.33 APR: 7% 300 months = FV 3,849,878.77027 Then for your 8 years of no payment PV: -3,849,878.77027 PMT: 0 APR: 7% 84 months = FV 6,275,279.50442.

Jeff__Skilling

All gas turbine manufacturers are - think most are trading in the high teens / low twenties on an FV / 2025E EBITDA basis OP essentially asked "Hey guys, where's the free lunch I'm looking for w/r/t electrification?"

AnyPortInAHurricane

did you calculate the FV at the time of your buy fill. I suspect it was way off

VegasBjorne1

The entire economy is predicated upon growth, as an obvious example of the GDP, and by extension, publicly traded companies and their stocks. As companies grow, then so does their stock price. Reasonable investors will advocate an index fund such as VOO as it diversifies risks while providing better net returns than actively managed funds. A simple formula to play around with future values with a one-time contribution would be FV = (1+*i*)^n * P, where *i* = average rate of return, n = years invested and P = Principle. Play around with average returns and years invested, and the impact becomes huge.

ArthurDent4200

The value of projection is to assure yourself that you are saving enough. I see posts from people who think that putting $200/month will leave them with a healthy retirement nest egg. A quick self education on the "=FV()" function in Excel would be a good idea for anyone starting their journey. This is also a good idea for people who plow money into their IRAs not thinking about what will happen when the RMDs come around (me). To do a projection while buying individual stocks is somewhat pointless but a diversified portfolio or index fund with a decent history can be enlightening. Art

RelevantHelicopter82

Compass and AMD. Both reached their FV targets.

Jeff__Skilling

> How can they be unrealistic if the board’s own analysis showed that Tesla is projected to achieve the metrics? Because the rise in price didn't come from incremental cash flow vs expectations. They came from [unbelievable multiple expansion](https://imgur.com/a/eQrbs8d) -- going from mid-20.0x FV / NTM EBITDA multiple in 2018 to over 80.0x at it's peak in ~2ish years later would be a pretty unrealistic assumption, short of TSLA figuring out cold fusion or owning a monopoly on self driving cars. The rise in market cap is fairly impossible to achieve, **assuming that TLSA's valuation multiple remained fairly steady over that period**. The cashflow math just doesn't work out. But if you're NTM EBITDA multiple quadruples during that period of time? Fairly easy to hit.

radduder

$SMCI VS $PLTR: Supermicro’s 2024 yearly revenue was $14.99B. 😯 $42 stock + 22 P/E. Palantir’s 2024 yearly revenue was a measly $2.7B. 🫤 $130 stock + 560 P/E. Supermicro just announced an additional $20B revenue stream making FV $200. 🤯 https://preview.redd.it/zrpu7hheao0f1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=130413840f6b8e47278305d07dae94ae32135162

Updraft999

Recession is not even very likely lol On Monday, after that threat eased, Oxford Economics cut its recession probability to 35% from better-than-even odds previously. Oxford also increased its full-year GDP forecast by 0.1 percentage point to 1.3% in 2025, saying tariffs, supply-chain stress and uncertainty will all lead to the economy growing below its potential.  “Good things are in the pipeline for the economy next year from deregulation, fiscal stimulus, and less policy uncertainty,” Oxford chief economist Ryan Sweet said in a research note https://www.wsj.com/economy/trade/what-the-u-s-china-tariff-rollback-means-for-the-american-economy-7bfc05f6?st=u1C3FV&reflink=article_copyURL_share

Crazy_Donkies

Thank you. His broad generalization and textbook definitions don't seem to meet my "measure of return." Most financial models (IRR, NPV, DCF, PV, FV) require a period of time. Yes Im sure his definitions are correct. Yes stocks only go up. However, in practice measurements are time bound.

Soft_Walrus_3605

Their calc seems to take that into account, though they don't say it. $400 mil today is like $60 mill in 1974 dollars. At about 11% annual growth of the S&P500 while reinvesting dividends, he'd have FV≈60,000,000×(1.11)^50=11.0 billion dollars Someone else check my math

mom_of_stiffler

I've found it under 6FV.F (in €).

elpresidentedeljunta

You can´t make this shit up. [The guy, who just taunted and humiliated all the nations enquiring over trade deals begs China to make him an offer...](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/trump-presses-china-tariff-offer-182344161.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALhHqEGuHEzmEw293GkE1dWFMtYIU86MFwMIAPQ56RTo8igA4tmiNV9WWT8ZL7LuRyz3upd_I3AwP4CK8GLHyfpVJBOYZkWKyHI949IY5RWxGq4FV2SA-XYsJ-HnDtMLibZJqi1Oi5AL6lAfojGwkL9iO6L6bMCujXgGBKRprdIK)

ShortRevolution6368

Tariffs\_policy\_FV15\_FINAL\_FINAL\_EDIT.pdf

CardiologistEqual336

Tariffs_policy_FV15_FINAL2_EDIT.pdf

Wyldefire6

Tariffs_policy_FV15_FINAL2_EDIT.pdf ftfy

FriedRice2682

Tariffs_policy_FV15.pdf

FriedRice2682

Tariffs_policy_FV15.pdf

Spare-Dingo-531

DADDY TRUMP IS HOME!!! Remember, [the tariffs hurt Daddy just as much as they hurt you](https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6Ms6FV2J28E).

_moonbear

Why isn’t this the play? 350k FV at 30 years is $3.5M for 8% interest, FV for payments at $15,609 ($1,300 rent each month) a year for 30 years is $1.8M, so from a liquidity perspective selling is the right choice. That doesn’t factor in the house value though, which if it grows 4% annually would be at $1.1M. Still less than selling it, but close enough it becomes closer to even especially when you factor in tax considerations Personally I would keep the house because it gives you more freedom if you have to slow down payments, as well for protection against rent increases if you live in an area that blows up in popularity. The ironic thing is keeping the house is actually much riskier investment than holding an ETF because you could see the opposite, a large event that destroys your house value either through weather/economics.

OutlandishnessOk3310

I think a large amount of the sell is driven from political or moral differences with the way Mr Mush has conducted himself recently. The sales drops in most Western countries are not going to simply rebound overnight regardless of any tune change or price drop you might see. The impact will last a number of years with people tied into PCP, PCH or lease contracts gagging to send the cars back but currently unable to. This is going to he cataclysmic to 2nd hand tesla values and subsequently put more pressure on new car pricing. I'm not sure what his game is but alienating yourself from core market segment is not smart. I genuinely believe that this will go down as the all time great of people who successfully destroyed their company by doing/saying something stupid. I don't think there is much that he can say that is going to reassure hedge funds that there isn't more downside risk. I have FV around $125~$150 range, and will be playing puts until at least $175 (THE PREMIUMS ARE NUTS)

rosaparkus

Tough to see losses. You don’t want be day trading in your TFSA as if you were to have huge wins they may still tax you. Several cases where it’s been ruled as business income rather than investment account. https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/tfsa-red-flags-canadians-broke-021500446.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAACLuTtsrOAlt0XJiLxMcR6iggn3pY6hYzSGEAIgJSzcZXVqRXr_D3FV_SbgZGE2SlaUjl7ZlGc4NSf_4CVp6rzAMcbQQIyH6xrmGiKqqOydjMtMXsvMlYgsCoxGyMSYVBoVzgX_XEw-RdwobbQbr-zp6j9mrhPXFnNr6bL5VU7AK

radduder

$SMCI Supermicro is the Buy of the Century at $48. ✅ 10-K filed with zero fraud found ✅ Nasdaq notified them of compliance today, so no delisting ✅ $40B Revenue target makes FV $208 https://preview.redd.it/9iwwy6ya6lle1.jpeg?width=1045&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c8c0ec0fbc60d20d146cd3c2875bbadca60fc03c

squiddybro

ok but can you provide any FV calculation to support $100K price? And why not $1K or $1M?

C6R_thunder

It can be confusing to know what we’re aiming for so I’m going to tell you what I did as a possible way for you to pick a goal. Estimate what your current annual need is in today’s currency of choice. It doesn’t have to be your actual amount spent right now. Divide that number by your withdrawal rate to get the Present Value (PV)of what you need. Next we’ll calculate the Future Value of the PV. That formula looks like this: FV=PV(1+r)^n, where r=interest rate (assumed inflation) , n=# of interest periods (years to retirement). Obviously you can go in the reverse way too and with a $5.3m FV, 2.5% inflation rate, 40 years we’d get $1,973,882 in PV. Hopefully that makes sense, if not I can try to explain it better if you have a specific question.

Captain_Comic

At FV, it’s a $50 stick - maybe

Jeff__Skilling

> A temporary place to park money would need liquidity built in, wouldn’t it? Where in the OP is anything said about it being "temporary"? WB doesn't need to park 9 figures somewhere for less than three months, nor does he need or want that tax bill. Dividend yield is 4%. 2025E FCF Yield is **+13%** and it's not like these guys have any serious growth plans, so it begs the questions....what to do with all that free cash flow they're consistently generating on a quarterly / yearly basis? Probably by way of reducing their cost of capital - either deleveraging (and naturally increasing future free cash flow) or returning that capital to common equity. And if I were a bettin' man, I'd bet that WB is thinking something similar. It at least satisfies two of his major investing criteria: (1) low entry price at FV / 2025E EBITDA of 7.0x and (2) consistent cash yield, both in terms of FCF and dividend yield.

mba23throwaway

You can be a Costco bull but there is no world where this is near FV (EV).

TheRebuild28

It's just fair value accounting which makes sense for investments or other financial instruments. What doesn't make sense is to FV the value of a sales contract over 10 years and therefore recognize all the revenue upfront on signing which is mental.

Broad_March386

MSTR creaming themselves over FASB giving Bitcoins FV accounting treatment because it can now be used as treasury asset. I don't understand the logic of consolidating and holding BTC...if it is not traded how can it increase in value? What happens when all bitcoin are just held by HODLers?

BINGODINGODONG

Pretty sure it’s the FV Lorax that leads with its TGL8 production, and PLFS who has scaled its production to 24 TGL8.5 memory stacks.

one_ugly_monkey

Lol where are you seeing that? FV isn’t that high.

forebareWednesday

No, I was disproving your point of “ sure teach him to be a degen gambler” by providing sources to back up my claim that im not teaching OP to be a degen gambler and I actually know what im talking about. I’m not going to go into detail about HMMs to someone w $200 budget and no experience, but I will provide them w a way to accomplish their goals. UNH will hit 595 and 614 at least twice next week. If you dont believe me look at the chart for the past 6 months and tell me where I am wrong. FV is 597 and change. They have a meeting Dec 4 so the price might inch up. Jp collar is 640-550. No one knows when or how or why but the channels don’t lie. I just gave you and OP free money and more information than you’ll ever find on reddit. Thank you?

Key-Temporary7213

Best to do a sensitivity analysis based on your own dude diligence but at a steep 25% valuation of their assets, I get $4-8 FV. If you write down to 50% you would get a higher fair value assessment but in this space, outside of a buyout or acquisition, this is dangerous territory if you’re inclined to think the dividend and their share price is safe. NFA.

SilkBC_12345

Why didn't you ask the folks in the Discord about how they calculate and use FV?

KingRog85

That’s FV (fair value), i look at future earnings. BTC will go up and they will benefit.

xtreem_neo

https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/s/dUa8FV3Muj

VegasBjorne1

(1 + *i*)^n x p = FV where: *i* = interest rate n = years p = principle (money invested) FV = Future Value (1 + .08)^45 x $10,000 = $304,204 Your calculations are relatively close enough.

MattieShoes

> you appear to not fully understand how compound interest work. Right back at ya... > What you are calculating is the future value of a single contribution compounded monthly No, what I'm calculating is the monthly interest rate from an APR, which is not simple division, *because of compounding*. > =FV( 08/12, 12, 0, -1000) = $1083 An investment at 8% APR will yield $80 in interest over the course of a year, not $83. 8.3% APR would yield $83. If it helps, you can reverse the problem... How would you go from a monthly interest rate to an APR? You wouldn't multiply because that wouldn't take compounding into account. You use an exponential. APR = monthly_rate^12 To calculate the opposite, a monthly rate from an APR, raise both sides to the 1/12. It cancels out on the right, and you get APR^(1/12) = monthly_rate.

Ski1990

No actually you're wrong. you appear to not fully understand how compound interest work. The whole point is to get the benefits of the compounding effect. The formula above is for a series of deposits over the course of a year, or multiple years. What you are calculating is the future value of a single contribution compounded monthly. But even using your situation you can calculate it with the same formula. =FV( 08/12, 12, 0, -1000) = $1083 in this case the monthly contribution is 0 and we are doing one time deposit of $1000 at the beginning of the year. $1000 compounded monthly with an 8% interest rate is $1083.04. That's the whole point of compound interest.

Ski1990

There are some websites that make it easy, there's also and quick Excel formula that work too. =FV( (0.08/12) , (46\*12) ,-500) FV is future value. .08 is your interest rate which needs to be divided by 12 to get interest rate per month. 46\*12 is the number of months. -$500 is the cash out of pocket you are investing each month.

Critical-Werewolf-53

Speaking like a guy who has an excel Spread sheet for FV calculations 😂😂😂

Actual_Tax_5119

Bro I’m in this for a few years it looks like, fmv is 7.5. FV should be 42 by 2030. It will be a while. I’m outta this thread. Peace

Jeff__Skilling

Honestly, you don't even need excel - just a regular old financial calculator. PV = 0 PMT = 1500 N = 240 FV = 650,000 Solve for i

shiplax12

financial calculator N=20 PV=0 FV=650,000 pmt=1500 make sure your p/yr=12 solve for I, you need 5.45% return if you invest $1500/monthly for the next 20 years to end with a balance of 650k. good luck OP

StichesCyrus

Bonds can lose principle. PV =/= FV. Even though $1000 looks like $1000 is it really?

princemousey1

Can you do the math for me, as tax laws are specific to your region, how much the after-tax value will be for both options? I would say with the raw figures the $1m now is obviously a better deal, but I wonder if the tax position changes it. My reasoning is the $1m compounded at 7% over a decade already matches the $2m. And if you add another decade the FV is actually $4m.

12ebbcl

And here's the situation for the Annuity. |ANNUITY|||| --:|:--|:--|:--| |tax brackets|up to|taxable|taxed| |10%|$ 11,000|$ 11,000|$ 1,100| |12%|$ 44,725|$ 33,725|$ 4,047| |22%|$ 95,375|$ 50,650|$ 11,143| |24%|$ 140,000|$ 44,625|$ 10,710| |24%|$ 182,100|$ 42,100|$ 10,104| |32%|$ 231,250|$ 49,150|$ 15,728| |35%|$ 578,125|$ 8,750|$ 3,063| |37%|infinite|$ -|$ -| |ANNUITYCALC|| :--|:--| |Lottery Win!|$ 2,000,000| |Regular Income|$ 140,000| |Lottery income|$ 100,000| |Regular income|$ 140,000| |EBIT|$ 240,000| |Taxes|$ 55,895| |Realized income|$ 184,106| |Actual tax rate|23.29%| ||| |post-tax, pre-winnings take home|$ 113,000.00| |post-tax windfall|$ 71,105.50| ||| |Annuity|| |Periods|20| |FV|$ 4,625,174| |PV|$ 2,266,825| Note that FV is just the sum of future cash flows, principal * (1+rm)^n. NPV will be the sum of *discounted* future cash flows, FV/(1+Ri)^t. This accounts for inflation and gives us a way to compare these two options *in present dollars.* Note that the exponent in the discount term is for the full 20 years, we're taking the present value of an investment which matures in 20 years - the annuity stays the same dollar amount over time, which means it is subject to inflation: |Years invested|FV|PV| --:|:--|:--| |20|$ 501,490.79|$ 245,783.65| |19|$ 454,825.67|$ 222,912.80| |18|$ 412,502.88|$ 202,170.14| |17|$ 374,118.34|$ 183,357.65| |16|$ 339,305.58|$ 166,295.71| |15|$ 307,732.25|$ 150,821.43| |14|$ 279,096.91|$ 136,787.08| |13|$ 253,126.17|$ 124,058.66| |12|$ 229,572.07|$ 112,514.65| |11|$ 208,209.75|$ 102,044.85| |10|$ 188,835.25|$ 92,549.29| |9|$ 171,263.61|$ 83,937.33| |8|$ 155,327.05|$ 76,126.72| |7|$ 140,873.44|$ 69,042.92| |6|$ 127,764.77|$ 62,618.28| |5|$ 115,875.90|$ 56,791.48| |4|$ 105,093.33|$ 51,506.87| |3|$ 95,314.10|$ 46,714.02| |2|$ 86,444.86|$ 42,367.15| |1|$ 78,400.92|$ 38,424.76|

12ebbcl

Here's the situation for your lump sum: |tax brackets|up to|taxable|taxed| --:|:--|:--|:--| |10%|$ 11,000|$ 11,000|$ 1,100| |12%|$ 44,725|$ 33,725|$ 4,047| |22%|$ 95,375|$ 50,650|$ 11,143| |24%|$ 140,000|$ 44,625|$ 10,710| |24%|$ 182,100|$ 42,100|$ 10,104| |32%|$ 231,250|$ 49,150|$ 15,728| |35%|$ 578,125|$ 346,875|$ 121,406| |37%|$ infinite|$ 561,875|$ 207,894| Note that I have two sets of 24$ tax brackets, so I can calc out your pre-windfall taxes separately. |LUMPSUMCALC|| :--|:--| |Lottery Win!|$ 2,000,000| |Regular Income|$ 140,000| |Lottery income|$ 1,000,000| |Regular income|$ 140,000| |EBIT|$ 1,140,000| |Taxes|$ 382,132| |Realized income|$ 757,868| |Actual tax rate|33.52%| ||| |post-tax, pre-winnings take home|$ 113,000.00| |post-tax windfall|$ 644,868.00| ||| |Lump Sum|| |term (years)|20| |FV|$ 4,548,106.12| |NPV|$ 2,229,054.19|

12ebbcl

**You are modestly better off taking the annuity.** Let's assume the following: - You get 50% of the winnings amount if you take the lump sum. - Taxes are calculated AFTER the lump sum discount. - 100% of the winnings if you take the 20 year annuity. - Taxes on the windfall are calculated ON TOP OF earned household income. - Earned household income stays the same for the next 20 years - Annuity payments are all the same and do not earn interest or increase to compensate for inflation - The S&P 500 retains historical (from 1957) return of 10.23%, Rm - US inflation retains historical (from 1957 return of 3.63%, Ri - Every dime of realized winnings invested at Rm. Let's see what we've got: Lump Sum, windfall, post tax = $644,868 Lump Sum FV = $4,548,106 Lump Sum NPV = $2,299,054 Annuity, 20 years, post tax = $71,105 Annuity FV = $4,624,174 Annuity NPV = $2,266,825 The differences are relatively small - difference of like $3800/yr. Maybe that's enough to matter to you, maybe not. A couple of things are happening here. First, you're saving a lot more money on taxes over 20 years with the lump sum, *not* with the annuity - $895K v. $1,118K. This makes sense because you're getting taxed on the full $2M, not on the $1M from the lump sum. But, even though the annuity has a greater tax drag on it, you're just not getting enough of the lump sum to generate returns which outrun what you generate with the annuity. For what it's worth, if your windfall had been above $2.72M, the lump sum becomes the better option.

PENNST8alum

This is a basic TVOM calculation. Figure out the FV of an annuity and the FV of the lump sum at the same interest rates. Whichever is greater is your answer

internet_observer

>But 100k compounded at 4% is 324k in 30 years And at 4% after 30 years he would have $347k with the 500/month The break even point is 5%. If he returns above 5% average annually he is better with the 100k, if he returns less than 5% average than he is better with the 500 monthly. You can play around with this easily either in Excel with the FV function, plenty of future value calculators or the future value equations.

LeftNote8251

Lol China is in war production mode, hence alibab going nuts, mark NY words by June we will be having a little but of an issue with Ukraine and those Kim's robbing us blind......funny the only ones who stuck around here are gaysians or American iced unacceptaroonies, the rest went home. Right now they're letting us pilfer our own market, kinda a here yard go, have at it you greedy asshole Americans. Now the eagle will fligh high on the dragon and will prevail; at the end they'll have shown us the way to spiritual enlightens.....[yeah](https://www.facebook.com/share/pMJ2d9N7DAsAe4FV/?mibextid=xfxF2i)

00Anonymous

Since: >long term average stock market returns = long term average real interest rates + long term average inflation + long term average equity risk premium Subtracting out long term average inflation merely serves to reduce nominal accuracy without adding any new information to the result. Hence, in FV calculation there's no real reason to bother doing so. The only time equity investors are at risk of getting returns below inflation is when [long-term average real interest rates + long term average equity risk premium] < 0. This is possible but exceedingly unlikely.