GM

marioori

your mom is the GM at ASTS?

tiggerclaw

Maybe, but what you’re suggesting is just a guess. Here’s a more tangible questions: 1. In 10 years, will GM earn more than 5x its current valuation? 2. In 10 years, will Tesla earn more than 60x its current valuation? Whatever your answer explain your case with math.

tiggerclaw

Compared to Tesla, GM is minuscule.

Expensive_Web_8534

This. Tesla is not a car company. It is an AI company. You either believe that it will succeed in fully automating driving before anyone else and in the next 10 years or so (in which case you buy the stock) or you don't think it can be done in the next 10 years (or even if it can be....not by Tesla) in which case you sell the stock. Comparing it to GM is as productive as comparing Apple to a grocery store because they both sell apple related products.

WhatTheHeckCPP

Not sure where GM is in the EC space since I don’t keep up with it, but once EVs hit a majority of sales GM will start losing money. You need to sell a certain amount of cars to turn a profit and cover SG&A and R$D costs. GM has a fairly good chance of going bankrupt in 10 years depending on how fast EVs replace ICE cars and how fast GM adapts.

WhatTheHeckCPP

Not sure where GM is in the EC space since I don’t keep up with it, but once EVs hit a majority of sales GM will start losing money. You need to sell a certain amount of cars to turn a profit and cover SG&A and R$D costs. GM has a fairly good chance of going bankrupt in 10 years depending on how fast EVs replace ICE cars and how fast GM adapts.

relentlessoldman

No, eventually GM will be out of business.

tiggerclaw

If 2023 annual net income is 15B and market cap is 705B, then $TSLA is trading at 47x multiple of its net income. And if 2023 annual income is 10.13B and market cap is $50B, then $GM is trading at less than 5x multiple of its net income. Therefore, this reiterates what I already said but in a much worse way.

Kranoath

To me GM is like Nokia, Kodak, IBM, etc...

yung_tini

You are continuing to compare products and business lines that are different. How is an oil refinery or ship comparable to software in any way? If you don’t like TSLA cool just buy your GM stock but quit comparing the two.

Makyoman69

And that should tell you that you can’t compare companies simply based on their market cap vs earnings only. Tesla will surely be around in 20 years but we can’t say the same confidently about GM

BaxBaxPop

All of GM's profits come from a product line that will be effectively extinct in 15 years.

callmecrude

Posted this a few days ago on GMs earnings, but feel like it fits this thread too: GM is probably a great stock to own in the short term, but it’s fascinating watching them throw away their entire future for these short term profits. This was the company that just a few years ago was claiming that they’d surpass Tesla in EV deliveries by 2025. Here we are just a few quarters out and they’re literally 20x behind and the gap has only widened. They’ve walked away from EV partnerships, shelved their autonomous vehicle research, massively delayed or outright cancelled multiple EV manufacturing and battery facilities… They’ve just buried their head in the sand that most of the world is transitioning to electric by 2035 and chosen to squeeze the last drops of demand out of ICE. The market is forward looking, and GM is currently on an identical path to blockbuster and blackberry. They originally talked about building out EV charging. As of last year they completely threw in the towel and adopted Tesla’s EV charge system and supercharger network instead. If you buy a GM EV, you’re most likely going to be supporting and paying royalties to Tesla. They’re not a competitor to Tesla anymore, they’ve failed to innovate and are just hoping to survive going forwards.

yung_tini

TSLA has businesses and revenue outside of solely producing and selling vehicles. They should not be compared with GM or any other company that solely manufactures and sell vehicles. Their energy storage business did $3B in revenue this past quarter for 100% yoy rev growth. You are comparing apples to oranges. They also have other “call options” in FSD, humanoid robot, dojo etc that if they hit on any of these become mega businesses. Not sure why people still complain or misunderstand why they trade at a premium.

tiggerclaw

It is likely that GM will lose market share to TSLA. But will it forever? I am skeptical. You can only speculate on the future to a point.

WhatTheHeckCPP

Markets trade on future earnings. GM is projected to lose market share to TSLA in the future, and basically forever. That’s why TSLA is valued highly and GM seems undervalued. The market here is being rational believe it or not.

Meakmoney1

GM is a dinosaur

tiggerclaw

For 2023, here's the annual net income: * $TSLA: 15B * $GM: 10.13B Maybe you can clarify what answer I'm supposed to be seeing.

Less-Somewhere6589

Couple of points 1.Try not to anchor your new trades to previous success/failures on the same ticker/stock. If you did a CSP on GM (which is correlated to F), this question of 11.5 or 12 or 10 would not have up, You would have a clear slate to pick up. 2. Try stop loss to alert you - so you can roll, before it is late. You can sell first and enter into a new trade later - does not have to be an auto roll

gnocchicotti

Intel like GM will never go bankrupt rite

TheFergusLife

Next major one is RIVN on Aug 6, but EVs are their entire thing so the same logic may not apply. That said 3 of their last 4 earnings have had major drops afterward and they’re coming off a major run up, but this stock is a bit more volatile then GM and F

TheFergusLife

I mean mine was that TSLA tanked after earnings, then GM tanking solidified it. Got a 10 bagger on $12 puts this morning

omnibossk

What about Ford and GM stocks instead? The Lightning and Hummer are selling like cupcakes/s

callmecrude

They didn’t let GM fail either, but shareholders still lost everything.

Ehralur

I can totally understand if people don't want to touch Tesla because they don't believe in their autonomous software and bots, and if you don't believe in those there's little reason to own the stock. The car business will probably justify its current valuation over the next decade, but that's a poor investment. The ROI is in the FSD and Bot. The problem though is that a lot of people who don't believe in those, don't believe in them for the wrong reasons and you appear to be one of them: > Boston Dynamics are miles ahead in terms of robotics that replace labor Tesla is NOT competing with Boston Dynamics, which make pre-programmed robots not autonomous robots. To say BD is "ahead" is extremely silly. It's like saying Usain Bolt is miles ahead of Messi. Sure, he might run faster, but Messi is not trying to just run in a straight line. > Same goes for GM who owns autonomous driving company Cruise, which is already ahead of Tesla in robo taxis. I read this a bit too late. You're clearly not actually trying to understand anything but acting in bad faith. Cruise is not only working on geofenced autonomous cars, not fully autonomous cars, but they've also all but shut down after the recent scandal. To say they're "ahead" of Tesla just shows you're not being genuine.

FriedDuckling

[Everytime this degenerate forum predicts a crash ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-e46xdcUo)

sf_warriors

But the results show otherwise, GM smashed profits this quarter, marking their best performance since 2020. They have at least 12 EVs in production and have made substantial investments in EVs. GM is one of the few manufacturers, apart from Tesla, to have end-to-end vertical integration, encompassing batteries, EV platforms, motors, and software in-house. gm with 30k less employees than ford is posting 30% more profit

Ok_Run_101

I understand, but it's still basically pipe dreams at this point. Boston Dynamics are miles ahead in terms of robotics that replace labor, so Hyundai (who owns a majority stake in BD) should have a P/E premium. Same goes for GM who owns autonomous driving company Cruise, which is already ahead of Tesla in robo taxis. So maybe it's those R&D projects combined with high effort PR by Elon in order to hype it up?

ShadowLiberal

Agreed, I think at lot of people still just don't understand how difficult and expensive the shift to EV's is going to be for the legacy automakers. IMO Ford and GM (and probably some other automakers) are seriously slitting their own throats long term by cutting back on their EV investments in favor of short term profits. Sure growth in the EV segment has slowed for the moment, but that won't last. Consumer demand can shift in favor of EV's a lot faster then Ford and other automakers can shift their lineup from ICE vehicles towards EV's. It takes multiple years for the automakers to bring a brand new car to the market, and if you look at the charts of EV growth YoY you'll see that it can grow a lot in just a few years.

ShadowLiberal

Agreed. I was calling out how the Ford (and GM) hype made no sense several years ago when people were hyping up their EV segments. No one was ever able to give me a straight answer as to why Ford and other automakers shifting their sales from ICE vehicles to EV's would make them more profitable. Everything about how they could make more money in the future (like by shifting to sell software upgrades/subscriptions) can be done just as well in an ICE vehicle as an EV. IMO there's a definite non-zero chance that the market's shift to EV's will end up bankrupting Ford in the long term.

Chromewave9

About 40% of VW's profit and revenue come from China. This is mainly through ICE vehicles - something China is rapidly phasing out from. Because China previously did not have a strong auto manufacturing industry, their rapid increase in EV is tied to China wanting to be a powerhouse in this industry so they can take market share. VW is in serious trouble with this EV transition. Chinese buyers are going to start buying local and with tariffs/trade tensions with Europe imposing on China, China will have no choice but to do the same to European automakers and then Chinese will just buy domestic car brands such as BYD, Xpeng, Nio, Tesla, etc., I'd hate to beat around the bush but EV sales will outpace ICE sales in the near future. It's not an if but when. Very few companies are equipped to handle this transition and stay profitabile. Ford/GM have no chance. Toyota/Hyundai/BYD are the top three outside of Tesla that will continue their dominance.

MrRikleman

Honest? I dunno, he was crying all over cnbc, etc. during UAW negotiations, saying the union’s asks would bankrupt Ford. Then Ford was the first to agree to the union’s terms and a quarter later they said, nah, it’s fine, we can pay our people more, not a big deal. Ditto for GM. Honest my ass.

artardatron

I want Ford to succeed because I think Farley is fairly intelligent and honest. Unlike Barra at GM promising on EVs, unpromising, then pumping stock afloat with buybacks and gas cars, before she jumps out with a golden parachute. This underlines just how difficult EVs are, to all those who said stuff like legacy auto are experts and therefore succeeding at EVs was inevitable. What has been inevitable is their failure at EVs for last 3-4 years. The reason is that no matter their intent, their corporate structure makes them way too slow to innovate, which makes them unattractive to the level of engineers they seek. They just stagnate and try to hold onto their ICE business, almost looking for a miracle. EVs will undercut their ICE cars, when that happens they are in much more of a world of hurt than today.

Careless-Degree

Does he have any real interest in putting out a new car with moderate updates every year like Ford or GM does?  Tesla needs a new CEO that can concentrate on giving people different shaped headlights and new ways to connect your phone to your car every year and Musk can go do something else.  Tesla has matured and it’s just a car company. 

ChiefOfMasturbation

GM should put in a bid to buy TSLA

ShadowLiberal

Honestly don't agree with this. I'm a liberal and really hate Trump, but I'm still probably buying a Tesla for my next vehicle. Since 1) No having to deal with a dealership & haggle over the price, and 2) as other companies like GM have shown, buying an EV from a company that doesn't know how to build an EV is a pretty big risk, which I'm not willing to take.

sreesid

Ioniq 5 is leagues ahead of the model Y. It costs about the same. Charges faster, drives better, and is assembled well. Every Rivian is better than a comparable Tesla. They cost about the same as a model X. You point out Ford and GM, but fail to mention Hyundai, Kia and VW. They are all making money on EVs.

w1nn1ng1

We do, but companies like Ford, GM, Toyota, and Honda will build much better cars for far cheaper. Tesla is a low quality produced vehicle. They are basically a step above boutique manufacturers.

planethempnaarea

Anyone playing Southwest Airlines tomorrow ? Got some $26.50 puts for Fun. Also got some Puts on Ford following GM and Testa - these may print tomorrow - it was a big miss

mrCortadito

Shall have the same fate as GM... That is pretty close to the money... Puts should print!!

Cormano_Wild_219

I’m hoping ford follows GM and TSLA and just shits the bed. I’m not over-leveraged at all either 

DifferencePristine87

GM shit the bed and tanked

Stonkrates

GM did pretty good

DifferencePristine87

GM shit the bed Tuesday. Hard to believe F won’t be 10-11$

flyinsdog

GM, like VW, had a huge lead in China and they fucked it up by managing like westerners rather than Chinese. Now they get to lick BYD scraps if they are lucky.

Leaky-Wallet

GM

WedWealthist

GM everyone

Hungry-Bug7569

GM at a discount

Savings-Act8

$100 is generous. Margins sub 6%. It’s worse than ford / GM. Tell me again how it’s not a car company. Without EV credits sales would be negative.

ilovethewayyousmile

TSLA at GM’s P/E: $8.40 Sounds fair to me 

Tony_Cheese_

Acer bought gateway for 710 million. Pontiac is GM.

ChiefOfMasturbation

GM

cpatanisha

They were credits for all EV makers. Why single him out? He wasn't the one screaming so hard for government handouts like GM.

Powerful-Ad7330

I don’t think Ford and GM’s EV sales are enough to leave them with credits to sell. Generally that’s only for high volume (relatively) pure EV companies.

DarkSideBrownie

The taking of an ownership stake and board seats seemed to motivate GM pretty well from what I remember. These companies really hate it when their profits are socialized rather than just their losses. For all of Trump's failures. Starting a tariff war with China went a long way towards executing the sort of actions you're advocating for here. It makes goods more expensive on the whole, but it can certainly be used to protect and encourage domestic industry.

tripping_on_phonics

Maybe so Rivian, but Ford, GM, and others have much more diversified revenue streams, i.e. ICE vehicles.

Chromewave9

Let's just use common sense here. All the OP did was Google some metrics and thinks that's a solid review case. Does the OP believe that the rest of the highly sophisticated investors who have access to Bloomberg Terminal, insider info, etc., also don't have this info? If stock investing was as easy as using a stock screener that takes 30 seconds to dig up, it wouldn't be called 'investing'. Anyone can see that $100 is more than $20. You don't need a brain to do what the OP did here. What the OP fails to mention is that VW has no growth and an inability to generate future growth. That's what Tesla is trying to do. Will it work out? Maybe, maybe not. But investing requires having faith in that the company will be able to create future products/services to continue growing. By OP's logic, why invest in Apple when Nokia had far better financials in the early 00's? According to the OP, Blockbuster is a way better company than Netflix! The market cap of VW depends on the price per share people are willing to pay based on the amount of shares available. Maybe the OP should ask himself, why do the smartest and brightest investors REFUSE to buy VW? This really isn't about VW, F, GM, etc., anymore. OP believes Tesla is overvalued but being the novice that he is, the only way he can do that is by comparing a legacy OEM with stagnant revenue to a company that plans to create automated driving, the largest battery storage systems in the world, has the largest and most sophisticated supercharging network in the world, robotics, and by far the most profitable EV automaker in the world. When other auto companies are losing billions selling a few thousand EV's but Tesla is earning billions, you should ask yourself how did that happen. The two largest reasons why people are betting on Tesla is FSD/Optimus. By all means, if you don't think Tesla will achieve either of those, yes, Tesla is incredibly overvalued. If you do believe Tesla can, then that's why Tesla is being priced the way it is. I'll be honest, the only reason I've been investing and still holding onto Tesla for the past decade is because the guy makes reusable space rockets that has billion dollar contracts with NASA and a Starlink system that generates $7 billion per year in revenue. I have faith that this same guy will accomplish great things for Tesla as well. And I'm willing to take the risk for that in hopes of higher returns. That's how investing works.

DevinOlsen

> And the revenue is propped up by $890M in regulatory credit sales. Wouldn't this be true for all EV sales? Ford, GM, Rivian, etc would all be getting the same credits per sale.

Mustatan

Yeah this is the part that's most ridiculous. Tesla has been worth more than all other car companies *combined*, even including titans like Toyota, VW, GM, Honda and Hyundai/Kia, and this despite not only lower sales but also *declining* sales, and even losing even more the one growth market (electric vehicles) that supposed to justify that stock price. Even most of the dumbest meme stocks and crypto meme coins usually aren't this stupid in the valuating. In fairness the S&P, Nasdaq and Dow Jones all have kind of ridiculous P to E ratios and valuations now compared to any historical standard, forward earnings or actual profit potential. But even accounting for that, Tesla is it's own level of stupid in the stock price compared to actual potential or performance.

skilliard7

Self driving just has such a long window of time until profitability that its hard to assign much value to it. The problem is growth investors don't want to own GM, but value investors don't want to own an unprofitable self driving company. Shareholders would probably be best off if they spun off Cruise as an independent company

parkway_parkway

How much did GM spend on AI hardware?

Rivercitybruin

won't this stock tank HUGE if it turns out to be just another auto manufacturer? albeit, without all kind of F/GM problems. so 15x-20x earnings that will likely decline quite a bit from here

ProfitConstant5238

And that’s why I own GM stock.

drm200

This is not a bank. And not FDIC insured. And it is online only. GM Finanancial Right Notes are currently paying 5.5%. The interest rate floats with the FED funds rate. Backed by General Motors and your account is managed by Bank of New York Mellon. I can move money in and out at any time via ach transfer. If I put a request for a money transfer today, it shows up in my bank tomorrow Both Toyota and Daimler have similar setups but pay a lower rate.

CMScientist

by that logic, GM should also be valued at 100 P/E

themomentcollector

so true. As sticky as my ex when she found out I was marrying another woman. Byt that gross margin is painful. Even the most durable businesses had to trade at decent valuations at some point, I ve seen FB (70%+ GM) and Google at 20 PE and Apple 2016 was around 10PE. Whoever got lucky to get this one cheap is a champ but since everybody has understood their stickiness it will trade at a premium for a very long time. And this for a business that will always struggle to be profitable by the definition of their business model. It might sound crazy but shorting this in the near future seems a good idea to me. But I would not want to short this for a long time. I am a masochist yes and I enjoy the ocassional pain but I'm not a madman.

spud6000

GM is down 6.5% today. i think that shows the market sentiment for TSLA too.

brintoul

Yep, in reality the common stock could go to zero and the company still wouldn’t “go anywhere”. Just the common stock go to zero - kinda like what happened to GM if anyone remembers that.

LookAtMeImInAGang

The market didn't like GM's earnings although they appeared OK. elon should be spending his day thinking of whoppers to tell during the conference call

csr8765

Shorting GM looks like free money from here. Huge beat, raise guidance for a company with a 4 PE and still can’t get a lift

spectral_fall

Not sure if there is any volume, but GM calls look juicy right now

s1n0d3utscht3k

https://preview.redd.it/9iximmrdpaed1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=753bbfc8faa26445eda0af834169e701ae31014f >Volkswagen’s predicament reflects an industry shake-up stemming from the breakneck pace of electric-vehicle development in China, where domestic brands have tapped government subsidies and the nation’s superior battery supply chains. EVs and hybrids represent about 40% of China’s new car sales, according to the China Passenger Car Association. >Foreign brands’ China market share has fallen to 44% in the first four months of this year from 62% in 2019. VW has fared better than some: GM’s China sales slumped by more than half this year so far. Chinese brands overtake foreign competitors Domestic automakers now account for more than half of the world’s largest car market, surpassing international rivals. >Volkswagen is spending heavily to stop the bleeding. In April, it announced a $2.7 billion investment in an EV design-and-production hub in Anhui province. That followed a $700 million investment in Chinese EV maker Xpeng last December to develop EV platforms and software, along with two EV models by 2026.

mtol115

Why did GM get clobbered? Beat and a raise yet down 7%

BrokerBrody

> They’ve just buried their head in the sand that the world is still transitioning to electric by 2035 and chosen to squeeze the last drops of demand out of ICE. Most legacy automakers will simply not pull off the EV transition. I don’t know if it’s Tesla haters or GM/Toyota/VW/BMW fans but we’ve already seen BlackBerry and Nokia go kaput during the smartphone transition. Long term, most if not all legacy automakers are going out of business. I have no idea what keeps them from modernizing but we have seen the song and dance time and time again and investors should be smarter than this.

lkjasdfk

I see now that you’re just being an ass. Calling Microsoft, Apple, and GM not real companies shows you’re just trolling. 

unwanted_hair

Started off the day all pissy about my GM puts... there is hope.

callmecrude

GM is probably a great stock to own in the short term, but it’s fascinating watching them throw away their entire future for these short term profits. This was the company that just a few years ago was claiming that they’d surpass Tesla in EV deliveries by 2025. Here we are just a few quarters out and they’re literally 20x behind and the gap has only widened. They’ve walked away from EV partnerships, shelved their autonomous vehicle research, massively delayed or outright cancelled multiple EV manufacturing and battery facilities… They’ve just buried their head in the sand that the world is still transitioning to electric by 2035 and chosen to squeeze the last drops of demand out of ICE.

EnginrA

GM was up 4% PM what happened

Zurkarak

GM wut

mtol115

Anyone else’s GM calls get fucked? Earnings beat but that overreaction, holy shit

ListerineInMyPeehole

MORGAN STANLEY: "General Motors: 2Q Reaction: Peak?" “.. $GM 2Q beat cons by 14% at Adj. EBIT on volume/price/cost. FY24 EPS guide raised to $10 at midpoint .. History suggests the good times won’t last ..” \[Jonas\]

MonkeySpleenFart

Why the fuck is GM down so hard?

wattjim

For a second I thought my GM puts were going to be worthless..

captain_holt_nypd

GM just drilled down to pre earnings level. Bro…

captain_holt_nypd

GM is fucking drilling in pre market sigh

unwanted_hair

VZ calls = nope GM puts? = NOPE The consumer isn't spending money unless you bought puts, in which case consumer is spending like there's no tomorrow.

DemisHassabisFan

$GM FUCKERS!!!!  🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

unwanted_hair

Amazing how the narrative flips based on what company I have a position on. VZ earnings: Nobody is upgrading their phone -6% GM earnings: Everyone's running out and buying a new $140K Escalade! +5%

human72740500022

GM fkin E !!! Why does this chat refuse to acknowledge that our creator RK went on stream a month and told millions of people he is bullish on THE stonk again. Bro showed us his insane position. He also ended the stream with “See y’all soon”… GME chapter 2 is going to go bananas.. apes like those. This sub has changed 💅🦍 GME will go parabolic once it hits $26 mark my words. 💎🤲

unwanted_hair

Who got GM calls?

LordFaquaad

Lmao. GM will roar coz "easier to sell gas cars".

cowboyhusker

UPS because had a good earnings recently and GM on a CNBC write up I read today (so they'll both probs dump)

sciguyx

Why UPS and GM?

cowboyhusker

Calls on UPS, GM, GOOG, F, and MSFT. Closed my TELL positions today on news of a buyout for a couple grand. Let's go!

unwanted_hair

GM tomorrow 

GayBrandFlakes

Buying calls on GM - Got 30 calls at 51$ Strike Price

jusjones314

GM calls or puts? Decisions...

Vplay3

GM Puts, F Puts, KO Calls, KDP Calls, 0 DD :)

WedWealthist

GM ☕️

NagasakiFanny

GM folks What’s in play for you today