GM

Moccus

They did take government money during the last recession. They just didn't go bankrupt and get a bailout. They got a loan from the government that was created to help the auto industry stay solvent. It was too late to save GM and Chrysler, though. > More than a decade after the last economic crisis, Ford Motor Company is still paying down a fat government loan created by Congress at the start of the Great Recession to aid automakers with factory projects. > https://www.freep.com/story/money/cars/ford/2020/07/29/ford-government-loan-department-energy-debt/5526413002/

chriswaco

Or they could go bankrupt like Hudson or Studebaker. Heck, GM and Chrysler already did once and only exist today because the government was afraid of letting them die.

Apart-Bad-5446

Tesla sold 1.4 million vehicles last year but supposedly, can only 'make' 1 million vehicles per year. Tesla only sold 1.4 million vehicles last year, worldwide, and the only auto companies that were more profitable were Toyota and Volkswagen - both auto companies that sell 10 million vehicles. Tesla's Model Y is the best selling passenger vehicle in the United States by revenue last year. Tesla's Model Y is projected to be the best selling passenger vehicle in the United States by unit sales this year. Tesla is more profitable than Ford and GM despite selling 1/3 the amount of vehicles Ford and GM sell. Tesla's margins are 2.5x industry standard. While other automakers lose money selling EV's, Tesla actually has the highest margins (outside of luxury exotic vehicles such as Ferrari, Bentley) in the auto business. Tesla operates in other segments such as AI, software engineering, robotics, energy storage and deployment, insurance, supercharging network, and is the most vertically-integrated auto company in the world. You're a clown on here, dude. Ford didn't sell 14 million vehicles last year. The entire auto industry in America only sold \~14 million vehicles in America last year. You're telling me Ford has 100% market share in America? Lol.

TheRealJYellen

I see a few things on the horizon. * Expanding internet connectivity to more remote areas (Starlink, AST Space and others. I think Iridium is kinda dead) * Crypto run up, part 6. BTC tends to go in and out of the news cycle which leads to the price going up and down as people gain and lose interest in it. It's been slow lately, so probably due for another run up in a year or so. That should coincide with the expected price spike from the next havening, so I think it's still worth a look. * Tesla devaluation. The stans will hate me for this, but they are rapidly losing their edge (and Elon's attention). Ford Mach E is on par with the model Y. Rivian, Ford and GM all beat them to the punch on a truck. Cybertruck is years behind. The semi is finally coming out in beta. Build quality hasn't improved. The only positive I see is their profit margin which will rapidly evaporate as they keep losing their first mover advantage. * Zombie company fallout. Lots of large, legacy S&P companies valued way higher than they should be, well over a reasonable P/E. Specifically tech companies.

phatelectribe

Can we also remember that Tesla lost tens of billions, over a decade so whenever you hear “ford or GM lost $2bn this year!!1!” Just keep in mind that Tesla was doing that per month lol.

DifficultyFuzzy5090

GM Regards 🎰🤪💵🚀🤪

Initial-Willow3935

in honor of Tren gone but never forgotten [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8aIvD4N8GM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8aIvD4N8GM)

Inevitable_Ad_6008

I guess more or so how any money is made on some trades. Like with my current GM spread, i got a credit of $31 initially, but it cost me $70 to enter the spread. Does the spread make the $70 back as it decays? Making total profit from the trade $111?

Already-Price-Tin

For example, Sears itself was slowly lumbering towards a slow death, but did successfully spin off Coldwell Banker, Discover Bank, Allstate Insurance, Dean Witter (a stock brokerage that later combined with Morgan Stanley), and a bunch of other assets. Out of the GM bankruptcy, Ally Bank (formerly GMAC) was one of the more valuable businesses to emerge. Breaking up big bloated companies can sometimes be helpful at creating value. Often big companies are too risk averse to want to pursue things that might challenge their existing dominance in a field (Kodak's invention of the digital camera and abandoning it, Canon/Nikon being slow to adopt mirrorless, Sony sabotaging its cell phone division to not step on its camera division, etc.). If you believe in creative destruction creating more value than it destroys, you'd want to be invested in nimble, small companies that take chances, rather than those that get bogged down in internal conflicts of interest and internal politics.

Acceptable_Stay_3395

Yes, you will need some capital to do this. That’s why I don’t recommend options trading for most people. Even my financially savvy friends won’t touch options because of the capital requirements to keep it safe. yes, you can use margin for trading credit spreads but it can still wipe you out if you’re not careful. People trade options for the leverage but you must understand the risks. With that said, there are some “safe” stocks that require a minimal amount of capital to get started. Things like F, M, T, GM, VZ, WFC, BAC, AAPL, GOOGL, AMZN (now that the latter two have split), KO, BMY, etc. Just be aware that some of these safer stocks don’t have a very liquid options market and you’ll have to sell close to the money or even in the money to make any decent money after commissions.

PizzaNuggies

GM went bankrupt in the 2009 and wiped out all shareholders, and were back within 18 months. Ain't the stock market fun?

Whole_Championship41

IMO: Exxon, Coke and Progressive are nicely diversified across sectors: energy, consumer staples, insurance. Tesla in 'automotive' is OK, but still very expensive (P/E, P/S) relative to other automotive manufacturers (e.g., GM, Ford)-and it's not paying any dividends. But one could argue for it in a diversified portfolio, just not my choice. The only one I see out of place here is DoorDash. Non-profitable company (infinite P/E) with extraordinary cash burn : market share for this business model. What sector would you see this 'covering' your diversified portfolio? If it's QSR / food delivery, there are better choices. If it's groceries or food, I'd look at grocery other home delivery services that are better capitalized and / or profitable without the cash burn problem. But kudos for getting into the process of personal investment portfolio development! "Time in the market is more important than timing the market" for long-term capital gains.

Hug_the_Curve

Isn't similar to the stunt pulled in the US when GM went under... renamed and basically everyone got screwed. With the aid of the Federal Government it was crafted in such a way that the courts basically let them do it with near impunity

Worth_Addendum8185

GM

No_Entertainer_9890

The US doesn't nationalize. They would sooner take over and break it up by selling it off piece by piece Rockefeller style. After all, that's capitalism. Same thing with GM.

RDub661

Ask GM, you know, government motors.

ImOakOrAmI

Almost time for GM calls

zephyrprime

How? Are you not aware that doing that is easy and how it usually goes. Stock wiped out. Creditors get some money. I know. I was holding some GM debt when GM stock got wiped out.

Tinkering-Thinker

I'm bullish on Tesla. Notwithstanding Musk's silly Twitter distraction, Tesla makes a solid electric vehicle. I can already tell you what is going to happen with all these American-made electric vehicles: The CEOs all told their firms that they "WOULD" be making electric cars this year. Feedback from the ground up about technical issues was met with "WE WILL MAKE A CAR THIS YEAR". I'm betting my money that over the next few years you're going to see these premium, over-priced cars fail. Some already have. Many more will. People will learn that if they want an EV they need to get a Tesla. And while other automakers will learn to make them over the next 10 years, the damage will be generational. How would you feel if you had purchased an EV for $70,000 only to find out it had a two year life before major repairs and problems made it nearly worthless. That is what is going to happen IMO. I've seen it too many times before form other companies from IBM to Microsoft. Products issued to meet a deadline that were not ready. It's one thing when you buy a $3000 computer. Quite another when your personal vehicle at $70K doesn't work right. Sorry for the long post. Just had to share where I think things are going. I know it will be a long-term wait. Oh, and I realize you see everytime a Tesla hits a bump in the road, but keep in mind the leftwing media hates Musk, so they tell you every time something goes wrong with a Tesla. But you're not going to read about it when something goes wrong with a Ford EV or a GM EV. Ultimately car buyers will get results from consumer reports or Edmunds and will base their purchases on that info, not on what the NYT or Washpo have to say about Musk/Teslas.

AustinLurkerDude

I couldn't find that. I just saw this: [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/20/at1-bank-bonds-credit-suisse-bondholders-cocos](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/mar/20/at1-bank-bonds-credit-suisse-bondholders-cocos) ​ >Typically when a company goes bust, bondholders rank before shareholders in the creditor pecking order for any recoveries that can be paid. Although expecting to rank behind conventional bondholders in order of priority, owners of the AT1 bonds still thought they would place before equity investors. What happens next? In the case of the Credit Suisse, bond documentation shows that Swiss regulators held the right to upend the usual hierarchy. So sounds like gov has the power to change the order but bondholders didn't expect that would happen. This is why after the GM bond write down in 2009 I stayed away from bonds. They're not even worth the paper the bonds are written on. ​ Most ppl expect AT1 bonds to be worthless if gov takes over, like FDIC taking over a USA bank, but in those cases the company shares also drop to 0. That's not happening here...

eddie7000

All that stuff you want money spent on requires labor and resources. The government can print money out of thin air to pay for it whenever they want, but without the workers and the materials, nothings getting built. Public transport gets trashed, idiots eat food that makes them sick, GM is the only thing left to increase crop yields (so no thanks to that), you're pissing into the wind if you believe we can stop the climate from changing, the top 1% employ most of the bottom 99% of workers so cutting their throats fucks a lot of people up. Anything else? The only place these problems can be solved is in the movies. So park yourself on the couch, with your mega dose of glucose (starch and sugar) dripping with trans-fats (vegetable (industrial seed) oils) and enjoy the mind numbing utopian bliss while you still can.

Adventurous-Ad-7890

The Swedes pulled an Obama like he did with GM...literally broke bankruptcy law to bail out the UAW for the votes...

FuckingDopeWSBTrader

The setting was 08? GM never even paid back their bailout. Chrysler did in 6 months, Ford never even had to take one.

kurzalevski

Heidmar Inc., a first-class commercial and pool management business servicing the crude oil and refined petroleum product tanker market announces plan to list on Nasdaq through merger with Home Plate Acquisition Corporation (NASDAQ GM: HPLT)

williampeartree

GM all

drew-gen-x

The Fed bailing out $F and $GM didn't exactly save shareholders even 13 years later. No growth & low profits = a shitty stock. Even if the CB's bail the company out.

fthas

No it’s Motors Holding Company II - not GM. Google search suggests that the company (or its shares) was used in a scam or two

bearhunter429

If we get a recession, GM and Ford will be great shorts LMAO

player89283517

Wait but GM is still around

BuySellHoldFinance

GM

Sad-Bluejay-2785

“Saving” often means investors get sacrificed. Remember GM?

Landed_port

They're worth ~$10: https://thestockmarketwatch.com/stock/?stock=MTLQQ The certificate itself may be worth more to a collector of oddities however. For instance, paper shares of Enron have been sold anywhere from $1-$300. A collector of GM things may give you a bit more, shame it's not in better condition though

brewfish

GM went bankrupt after the 08 crash. Sorrry, they're worthless now.

Potatoe42069

So, short Capital One? I'm thinking the car companies like Honda and GM wouldn't be hurt that bad on defaults as long as they can continue to sell new cars

ongoldenwaves

Top 20 new-vehicle lenders in 2021 by loan volume: 1. Toyota Financial Services 7.98% 2. Chase Auto Finance 6.44% 3. Honda Financial Services 6.18% 4. GM Financial 6.02% 5. Ford Motor Credit 4.71% 6. Capital One Auto Finance 4.31% 7. Wells Fargo Auto 4.16% 8. Hyundai Capital America 3.68% 9. Ally Auto 3.27% 10. Chrysler Capital 3.26% 11. Nissan Infiniti Financial Services 3.07% 12. Kia Finance America 2.66% 13. Bank of America 2.38% 14. U.S. Bank 2.24% 15. World Omni Financial Corp. 2.22% 16. TD Auto Finance 1.71% 17. VW Credit 1.70% 18. Truist Bank 1.40% 19. BMW Financial Services 1.40% 20. Fifth Third Bank 1.35% Source: Experian Top 20 used-vehicle lenders in 2021 by loan volume: 1. Capital One Auto Finance 5.81% 2. Ally Auto 4.89% 3. Wells Fargo Auto 3.84% 4. Chase Auto Finance 3.08% 5. Santander Consumer USA 2.59% 6. Westlake Financial 2.58% 7. Toyota Financial Services 2.48% 8. Carmax Auto Finance 2.46% 9. GM Financial 1.77% 10. Carvana 1.74% 11. Bank Of America 1.69% 12. Credit Acceptance Corp. 1.48% 13. Navy Federal Credit Union 1.27% 14. Exeter Finance 1.26% 15. TD Auto Finance 1.22% 16. Fifth Third Bank 1.15% 17. Truist Bank 1.14% 18. U.S. Bank 0.93% 19. Citizens Bank 0.91% 20. USAA Federal Savings Bank 0.90% Source: Experian

Fantastic_Barbie

GM wsb

BackThatThangUp

That could be our sister club, you wanna be the GM? Free lemon pepper wings all day

HungryHashMastr

General Mills gang, this time next year half of America won’t be able to afford eating anything besides GM products

stvaccount

The insurance is for a bank that took to much risk and is bankrupt. If you never go bankrupt, you never need an insurance. The insurance, as designed, is a tool where only 250k is insured. So as a bank you don't want to go bankrupt, because all deposits over 250k are lost. Secondly, the bailouts currently in effect give free money from the Fed to banks (via changing worthless treasuries into money for free). If 100% of all deposits are insured, as a rational person, you must give the bank with the most risk to go bankrupt your money -- as that is the bank that took the highest risk, chose therefore the highest return, and can therefore give you the best conditions. If you insure any risk, why stop with banks? Why not insure the risk of bond holders of GM and Ford?

stvaccount

Why stop at insurance? If you hold worthless treasuries, as a bank you can go to the Fed and cash out the sum that you would get at maturity. That is a free bailout. In Switzerland you already get 50 billion as a free loan as a bank. Take on as much risk as you want, you will get a bailout as a bank. Next will be the bailout of GM and Ford. Next Facebook? As a mathematical model, you must take on more risk if risk has no consequence. Return is a function of risk.

Meekoip

They could also rebrand themselves and go into a state of reformation as GM did and the stock went to zero only to come back out a month under the same ticker. Could happen with CS as well.

RecommendationNo3531

Which dataset a d methodology do you use for calculating GM & DN? Do you have a GitHub repo?

mr_cawffle

Easy answer. Tesla is worth many times the value of the other car makers. They’re is a good reason for this. ICE business is an albatross on their necks. They need it to feed investment into BEV but it’s rapidly dying. ICE biz is essentially a “runoff” business. Autos are now tech products. Tesla has the best engineers and software programmers. Ford and GM are still hiring captains of the football team with “leadership” abilities. They are so far off course they don’t realize it. Plus they’re beholden to hard core unions. Tesla is not.

Ehralur

And where is that written? But no, I don't think that just because all the other brands said stuff they never did, and now they're saying stuff that is nowhere near good enough that they're still probably not even going to do, is not enough reason to believe Tesla will stay #1. But I will not assume that anyone will overtake them until there's any kind of data to suggest so, which there currently isn't. GM wanted to overtake them by 2025, but their EV ramp has been disastrous and even their plans, which they've so far come nowhere close to, are to only produce as many EVs in 2025 as Tesla did in 2022. By 2025 Tesla will do about 4-5x that. And I already explained how VW and Toyota are at least 5 years too late, so who's left? BMW is still entertaining hybrids and hydrogen, Stellantis says it's impossible to be 100% EVs by 2035 when they need to be 100% EVs by 2030 at the latest. The only reasonable option is BYD, but despite having the numbers they're barely making money on their EVs, so I just don't see it happening.

shawman123

P/E itself is not a great metric unless its a steady state stock. That said looking at [https://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=NVDA&p=d](https://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=NVDA&p=d) , its a cyclical stock benefiting from next big hype. Crypto boom helped sell enormous amount of GPUs and now that is down, its GPU sales have cratered. Now the latest hype is around Generative AI. I think this hype will also pass. There will be short term boom in investment from few big CSPs and then it will crater as well. NVDA also are in Automotive market but that has tons of competition from vertically integrated companies like Tesla or even GM and then there are others like QCOM, MBLY and many other. Chinese will also have their in house developed chips for sure. Overall its a good company and I know employees are generally happy there as well plus Jensen is a good CEO. But the company is way over valued at this point.

tkdyo

They will soon. Every big company is going to start ramping up EV production which will bring prices down. They are also piling money into R&D like GM with that new battery lab they are building.

uselessadjective

TSLA has lot of comeptitors, Not to mention price slashing is gonna hit margins at one point. NVDA gross margins are insane at 65%+. No one companies bothers to come nearby, Probably AMD at 45%+ GM Anyways, Tesla will.not survive for long if they dont innovate and just behave like a manufacturer. I havent seeb anything new fron then in recent years. The craze of Tesla going down.

wearahat03

I've heard people say the US won't let Intel fail but have they considered that Intel actually fails then other companies buy up all their valuable assets. Shareholders lose out but their assets that people think are too important can still be utilized. E.g. GM during the GFC? The shareholders were wiped out. A new GM was IPO'ed after the government intervened. It's not the same anymore, no one will be happy, including government for original shareholders to be saved from intervention. They will wipe out all shareholders and take the good assets

Idennatua

The generally accepted fact that all the legacy automakers suck at their jobs and have sucked at doing anything of value since the 80's. There's a reason the top corporations sucking at the tit of uncle sam are the defense industry and legacy auto. That being said, if tesla doesn't get its shit together with it's c-suite and customer relations it won't matter how ahead they are in technology because they're about to pull a GM and go back in time.

tigermomo

GM ☀️

JeanVanDeVelde

Nothing. Teslas are fuckin garbage, and the head of the company thinks he knows better than what 115 years of automotive mass production has taught us. The race started 10 years ago, Tesla needed to learn how to build a car before the rest of the auto industry learned how to build an electric. If you want a cheap electric car, I'm sure GM/Ford/VW/Toyota will build one that's less than a Tesla with no discernible difference in the build quality (and better QA), if you want something a little more upscale, BMW/Benz will gladly oblige with a real luxury car at Tesla's price point. They're overpriced junk that discerning carbuyers will stay away from. (Disclosure: long $BMWYY)

latrickisfalone

Yes Stellentis is above GM

Repulsive-Ad4760

Yes that is correct I believe it was GM because ford never took a bail out but remember in 2008 a lot of the domestic banks got bailed out. Companies go under all the time but it’s different if a bank does that’s why I placed this trade.

OddPrOXY99

I like the idea but I just think about 2008. Im pretty sure it was ford or GM the stock went to 0 and investors got left out to dry while the company itself was bailed out. Someone with more experience please provide your input.

Shot_Lynx_4023

Ironically enough 5 year's ago when I bought my last brand new car, I thought I could have got a better deal than 20% off MSRP, $0 down and a sub 4% loan for 48 months. Half a decade later, it's like something out of a fantasy land. That car is paid off. Keeping it. I'm accumulating cars at this point in life. Trying to find a proper mid life crisis car. A new LT1 Camaro is $640 at 0% or $800 at 4%. Paying MSPR. I'm over here waiting til GM offers stupid low APR, then I pounce. People don't understand how APR works and only looks at the purchase price and monthly payment. Used car's don't appreciate in value. Who would pay 8% on used vs 4% on New?? People who want instant gratification. Although, GM is offering 2.9% on New truck's.

VisualMod

The Toyota Motor Corporation is the largest car manufacturer in the world by revenue. In 2021, it is estimated to have generated sales of over $143 billion. Porsche, Tesla, BMW and GM are also among the biggest car manufacturers globally.

Fresh_Cheek2682

I bought at 21. The Thacker pass mine will be an interesting development. GM throwing 600 million dollars at them definitely didn’t hurt things. I think for the stock to start mooning they need their Thacker pass mine to start producing lithium.

Alien-wacko

Counterpoint. After 2008 the markets was propped up by zero percent interest rates and stimulus check in bothe 2008 and 2020. In addition, GM was bankrupt but got a sweet deal that messed over suppliers and stock holders, otherwise it wouldn't exist today. So your money manager is just going to make a diverse port with the idea that even after a 2008 event it will still go back up one day. Others will say buy VOO for a 40 percent return, but.... Both of these past successes relied on the government propping everything up from 2008 to 2022. Is there a good argument for using either a manager or an ETF return percentage if you remove 2008 to 2022. You are giving old advice to young people who now live in a completely different market. Warren Buffett basically started bashing bonds as far back as the 80s but used to promote them. What would he say today? Past results have no predictive ability for future returns.

peter-doubt

I'd step back... The possibilities are rising that commercial real estate will fall into the eddy. In 08, it was mortgages that hit brokers, and culminated in automobile credit taking down GM. I'm expecting 4-8 months more of widening damage before discounts can be identified

explicitspirit

I wouldn't lump Rivian and Lucid with the others. They are startups with a still unknown future. GM is doing big things, much more than Ford is. Stellantis (Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler mainly) also has stuff in the pipeline. All the other legacy automakers are lagging big time, especially the Japanese.

VCUBNFO

Also the Americans. Tesla, Rivian, Lucid Air, etc. are literally all in on electric. Not to mention GM is starting to really ramp up.

lost_in_life_34

the government didn't even bail anyone out in 2008 and 2009. they forced GM to sell them warrants just to gain control and force them into an orderly chapter 11 process. same with the big banks in case they failed in 2009. ​ they wanted to avoid cascading failures of a surprise chapter 11 and business partners refusing business. and they accomplished that. all the pre 2009 GM stockholders were wiped out, the unions bet wrong and lost big and the banks paid back the warrants

yokogd

do you ever double down? currently in GM 04/21 38C and down 45% thanks

ImNoAlbertFeinstein

i think our failed banks( venture tech and crypto) are cooler and more updated than starchy old Wachovia and GM from 2008 bullshit

Spacemunky78

New GM product

Strange-Scarcity

Yep, but this isn't a "normal" bank that holds primarily accounts well below $250k. It's a bank that creates systemic economic risk by failing, as it put into immediate jeopardy the incomes of many tens to a hundred or so thousand people, plus secondary impacts of payments to suppliers, other banks for loans and significantly more regional impacts as the businesses using SVB would have been forced to close. That's why there are rules allowing for certain extraordinary exemptions. It's very similar to the reasoning why GM was restructured and saved, rather than allowed to collapse. Competing auto companies went to Congress, explaining in detail that the collapse of GM, with nobody able to buy the assets, and a cessation of operations, would have put so many people out of work, it would have destroyed so many suppliers, that the entire auto industry, not just in the US, but globally, would have put the entire world into a massive economic depression. Granted... if I had my way? I would have required that GM be restructured into MULTIPLE corporations, separate autolines. Sure, maybe there would have been some allowed working together, but the lines would have to be split up so that the resulting structures would never be too big to fail. THEN, new rules would have to be put into place, breaking up every other corporate entity, so large that their failure would require bailing them out to save the global economy. Too big to fail, should be ended by putting upper limits on size. Bring an end to rugged individualism for us and big time socialism for the exceedingly wealthy and massive corporations.

peter-doubt

In 08, the key was to lay off of banks and brokers. They were collectively the root if the problem. Stress testing by the Fed makes today completely different. But in 08, I waited for the credit crunch to take victims... GMAC killed GM. As a result, I jumped into a Ford and rode from 2 to 14. Wait. Accumulate cash. The best opportunity is months away. Or, you can DCA into Bank ETFs

crazyyimmy

I love a good tranny. Prefer the ‘82 over newer ‘93, but I think GM could make a killing like Dodge did with the Challanger/Chargers

doublea3

Isn’t ally the old GM financial?

Sudden-Shock-199

GM 🖕🏽

Kvyrokranaxt

Some of them they did, some of them they did not. Two examples are, GM, which the government lost money on, and AIG, which the government made money on.

FinalDevice

I think we're in agreement, actually. I do consider TSLA a car company, not a technology company. I'm not particularly bullish on Tesla at this point; I was very bearish before the price came down a ton. I do think they're currently worth a somewhat higher valuation than F or GM. I don't think they're worth a tech valuation.

Juandiple0_4

Been holding GM long bought at 40 should I sell or hold

VisualMod

#Ban Bet Won --- /u/Ziz23 made a bet that GM would go to 36.0 within **3 weeks** when it was 42.22 and it did, congrats you fuckin nerd. Their record is now 1 wins and 1 losses

Tinman7000

GM future millionaires

fuglysc

I clearly stated this isn't an either/or scenario...I am not saying 5 billion should be taken away from healthcare spending or education or fixing roads just to bail out a company I am saying both can and should be done...if you're going to point out all the indirect and direct benefits of fixing roads...why don't you and others think of the direct and indirect benefits of a company getting bailed out? Should the government have abandoned ford and GM and let them go bankrupt in 2008? Let hundreds of thousands lose their jobs? Are you also a caveman on this shit that you don't see the benefits of bailing out auto makers in 2008 so that people could keep their jobs and the US could retain precious manufacturing jobs Utterly amazed at the hypocrisy and shortsightedness...I'll bet there are plenty against bailouts because the mere mention of them makes people think "oh I have to foot the bill as a taxpayer"...but were these people complaining when they got thousands in stimmy checks during Covid?

fuglysc

LoL oh here we go....this is exactly what I asked you not to do...which is to come back with an either/or argument...youre obviously too thick to take note So playing along with your either/or logic, fixing roads is a priority because it saves countless lives...but not bailing out companies like Ford and GM is OK even though it would leave thousands of people jobless and possibly in an impoverished state? Your intellect is stunted so there goes your argument that money spent on education in the US is money that is automatically better spent than if it were spent on a bailout of some company...my point wasnt to say that 5 billion should be taken to bail out a company at the expense of fixing roads...I was stating that both should be done and both can be done

Mynplus1throwaway

Don't change it retro actively. What incentives banks not to fail? If you know all clients will be okay no matter what why not take the money to Vegas and put it all on black one night. You still meet liquidity requirements cause it's cash and if you fail everyone goes home whole? What's the point of money if the security net is the ground. VC firms have dumped money into garbage. What good startup tech have you actually gotten out of it? It's a bubble that just produces more garbage. Maybe i've read industrial society and it's future a few too many times. The startup game is bloated and ridiculous. It has contributed to the downfall of San Francisco as a place people live. Let the free market decide. GM should have never become the Volkswagen of America. All the 08 banks should have failed. Let's the free markets do their thing.

FinalDevice

I am not op and am not particularly bullish on Tesla. However, they might deserve a somewhat higher multiple than F or GM. Tesla is far more vertically integrated. Since they make more of their own components, they keep more profit in-house. However, I think their growth story is nearing an end and they're unlikely to deliver on the scale they expect.

fuglysc

And to address your second issue...yes I agree...there is a definite risk of companies taking excessive risks if they know the government will be there to bail them out But I disagree that all companies will do this...when companies like Ford or AIG took bailouts from the government in 2008...do you think they said "fuck yea...let's start taking excessive risks"? Ford and GM are bedrock companies that have proven to be financially stable and profitable over time...basically all companies were affected by the great financial crisis...does that mean they should've been left to die? Basically what I'm saying is that there are companies worth bailing out and the government can turn a profit in doing so...the logic is no different from banks offering loans to credit worthy person's/companies If the company has a history of doing stupid shit and over leveraging itself then of course they shouldn't be bailed out...2008 was an anomaly because all the banks were doing stupid shit and the US government really didn't have a choice but to bail most of them out But in the case of SVB, it wouldn't have been a bad decision if the US government decided to bail them out...SVB made some stupid choices that led to it's downfall...but it doesn't have a history of making these stupid decisions...it's existed since the 80s and has shown that it is a profitable entity for basically it's entire existence...the US government could've just bailed them out with a loan and have SVB pay that back over time with interest and adjusted for inflation

fuglysc

I have no idea why people think bailouts are bad if they are done to maintain financial stability People are forgetting that the US government eventually made a profit from bailing out the banks and other companies under TARP in 2008 The US government should be bailing out more companies and considering it as a long term investment Obviously shitty companies shouldn't be getting bailed out...but why shouldn't the US government bail out companies like Ford or GM or AIG and profit from these bailouts? Set conditions for the bailouts - ie - no buybacks for a decade...payments back to the government must include interest and be adjusted for inflation etc They could've saved SVB this time around and made money in the long run...instead they're just letting it die...stupid if you ask me

soAsian

if bank/company is ball deep in the US economy. the US govert will bail it out no matter what. Old GM, TARP program, The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008 and afghan (2 trillion)

KoastPhire

A bailout is a "government financial assistance to failing business to save from economic collapse." Noteworthy bailouts were GM or airlines during covid, and the entities bailed out existed. SVB will still dissolve or be sold to the highest bidder. They're just guaranteeing the depositors will get their money back. SVB will still collapse or be brought out like Washingtin Mutual was to JP Morgan in their collapse. Don't call it a bailout if it doesn't fit the definition. That's what I usually do when I speak English, FYI.

Aggressive-Elk4734

considering the exclusivity of SVBs clientel, VCs and startup founders.... Sure their employees will get fucked. But I'm an asshole and think that GM should have failed too, and all their employees should have lost their jobs.