PC

Ramast

if you have more than 2000$ in crypto you absolutely must own a hardware wallet. I recommend a hardware wallet designed specifically for crypto like trezor which also integrates with metamask. Even if someone could sit on your chair, open your PC and have your metamask unlocked, they still can't transfer a single sent without the hardware wallet.

Ramast

Careful OP from recovery scammers who claim they could recover your funds for a fee. If someone could recover your money, they'd keep it for themselves. If you're desperate and want to give it a shot. tell the scammer to deduct their fees from the crypto they'll recover. Also don't give anyone access to your PC or private info.

DynamicHunter

Exactly, the PC does computational work but it’s still exactly the same heat output as a heater

LowMousse5315

The PC's work is what creates the heat

SuperUserAI

Love the "something is better than nothing" spirit—and sharing the source as a `.txt` so anyone can host their own is awesome. Splitting the keyspace across your phone's cores and verifying it on the old solved puzzles is a really solid way to test things out. Funny enough, I had the exact same thought about those random key-checking sites—they blindly pick random keys and forget everything the moment you close the tab. That’s what pushed me to build **PUZZLE.GRID**([https://cpaawj4efh0kdbzl1ht5d1w4.macaly.app/](https://cpaawj4efh0kdbzl1ht5d1w4.macaly.app/)). Instead of pure random guessing, it uses your payout BTC address as a lightweight account to log every completed chunk of the keyspace. That way, you never scan the same range twice—even after a refresh or reboot (each user keeps their own isolated search space, so it’s not a shared pool). It also generates a quick share link for your address, so you could run it on your ZenFone and a PC at the same time, and both devices will automatically work on non-overlapping chunks. It runs via WebGPU when supported (with a CPU fallback for mobile) and includes a small demo range so you can watch it actually hit a target key, just like your solved-puzzle tests. Keep building—tinkering with this stuff is a super fun rabbit hole!

Big_Lmaoski

I had a similar epiphany a few years back when bitcoin properly exploded in value. When I was a teen and bitcoin was still new I played around with it and had maybe 50 in a wallet on my childhood PC. I remembered that and frantically drove to my parents house where it was, and took it home. Only to shortly remember that I had wiped it when I left home as we were supposed to give it to a younger cousin for a present that never materialised. Gutted.

ThePugz

The point is there are always groups of morons that claim everything is a scam, or a fad or not going to last. Home PC’s were one of the big ones. “Why would anyone need a computer at home?” Then the internet then cell phones then smart phones. Now crypto. And ALL of them were wrong every single time.

DynamicHunter

All of it. A 1500W space heater and a 1500W PC consuming 1500W consistently create the exact same amount of heat. The PC can just actually do work with that heat

ExpensiveShower5630

How did you even connect it with the PC to upload anything

MinimalGravitas

> You can't actually expect users/clients to be able to USE the damn thing!' You can because they do... > 'JUST have server infra deployed/maintained! The 'server' can be a Raspberry Pi, or your regular PC, and keeping it 'maintained' just involves updating clients a few times a year. If you don't want to use an RPC you don't need to.

1320Hellcat

Satoshi was Len Sessemen. He developed the first encrypted email, attended events as the name Satoshi. He worked with Apple to develop MacOS & BTC White-paper has been in Apple products since the first Mac PC was produced.

minecraft21420

Must have is a display, without a display you have to trust what is showing up on your PC. Bitbox and Trezor are one of the safest options

Carry_On2504

Thanks for the critical breakdown. I completely understand why it looks like "movie magic" at first glance, but this architecture is actually based on established cryptographic principles like Visual Secret Sharing (VSS) and hardware-enforced isolation. Here is how these specific flaws are technically mitigated: 1 & 2. The "Hot Wallet" & Initialization Myth: The initialization doesn't happen in a standard hot environment. The app on the phone/PC acts merely as a gateway. The true entropy (randomness) and the permutation matrix are generated inside a CC EAL6+ certified Secure Element chip via a hardware TRNG on the USB itself. The private keys are never exposed in plaintext on the host OS. Processing happens strictly within the phone's TEE (Trusted Execution Environment), such as Apple's Secure Enclave or Android StrongBox, which is completely isolated from malware on the main operating system. 3. The Backup Solution: Backup is a 2-of-2 model. The scrambled "pixel soup" (the mesh) is locally encrypted via device biometrics and backed up to your secure cloud (iCloud/Google Drive). For the hardware side, you use a "Hardware-to-Hardware" (H2H) protocol to securely clone the permutation map to a second "Twin" USB device using factory-embedded Attestation Keys. No 24 words on a piece of paper for a thief to find. 4. "Anyone with my device and computer can steal it": No, because the app requires local device biometrics (FaceID/Fingerprint) as the final green light. Even if an attacker physically snatches both your laptop and the USB key, the app will not initiate the session or stream the map without a valid biometric scan. 5. How a pet photo keeps it secure: The photo itself isn't the security; it represents the underlying high-entropy data matrix. When combined with the hardware TRNG's cryptographic "salt" during setup, the pixel data becomes a mathematically unique secret. An attacker can't just download the same dog photo from your Instagram, because they lack the specific digital salt embedded in your unique mesh. 6. Sniffing the hard drive or USB bus: The data stored on the hard drive is just the scrambled mesh. Without the permutation map inside the Secure Element, it is mathematically impossible to reconstruct. Furthermore, communication between the USB and the TEE uses end-to-end encrypted sessions (e.g., Diffie-Hellman key exchange) over the USB bus. A hacker scraping the hard drive or sniffing the USB-C port in real-time will only see encrypted noise. The "fancy UI" of the pixels flying into focus isn't just for show—it is a visual confirmation for the user that a successful, un-tampered 2-of-2 cryptographic handshake has just occurred in the secure enclave.

nikokow59

I made one using Gemini AI before, it was working nicely, but several features were still buggy. Gemini (or another AI) will usually program your bot it so it uses the best trading practices so if there is a crash like right now it’ll act accordingly, same for sales. You just need to learn a bit how to make your own server with nodeJs, host it on your PC or on a VPS. If you don’t know anything about programming, it’s better to use the Take Profit / Stop loss system of your app. On my side, I stacked all the cryptos I had (I wanted to test) and couldn’t remove them before 7 / 14 / 21 / 30 days, and while it was stacked everything crashed. I lost the 50 euros I managed to gain in one month T\_T Now I just wait for the value to go back up again.

CS_enjoyer87

>  You can't store it yourself without knowing a lot about tech No? I mean, define "a lot." You have to know how to download and install a program on your computer or phone, but that's about it. Most cryptocurrency wallets are dead simple to use; You don't even need to touch the command line for most of them. Sure, maybe storing large amounts of cryptocurrency *safely* (i.e. on a separate airgapped system) is a bit more difficult, but even having a wallet on your main PC is still an improvement over keeping it in an exchange. People are just lazy and don't understand the point of cryptocurrency, so they leave it in exchanges which create a single point of failure. 

Top-Care-8946

Nobody wants to suffer losses especially if on table are savings for future retirement periods. I think that it's not possible to become own bank and keep private keys safe at own. First of all if quantum computing and AI are currently at development phase and if the become more powerful then average crypto holders are defenseless because it requires significant amounts of investments into cyber defense. Yet we all know how expensive are computing components like RAM chips, CPU's and even SSD disks. And these components price is till growing. PC component market is sold out to satisfy AI companies demands. And at the end average person just can't permit to build computing shield. The only thing what it's possible to do is keep private keys offline but if AI ever will be able to derive private keys from public keys then offline keeping does not help at all. In conclusion I think that for average person the best outcome would be if the big tech companies see that they have lost control over AI and then will be forced to shut them all down. Otherwise they will lose more and then it will be end of the capitalism like we currently know it is.

JadedTwo17

I started mining bitcoin in 2012 on my home PC, fell in love with it, ended up doing illegal stuff to get more of it and went to prison. But I've been around crypto since 2012. I've come to believe that crypto is no different than everything else in this world, a scam. I've seen thousands of posts just like this and I lost 145 btc in a scam in 2016. Long story short I ended up with nothing due to my own stupidity. These stories are heartbreaksing. I spoke to another victim of the fake HFT scam i got scammed in and this woman was 70 yo, she put every dime she had into it, even got a loan on her home and maxed her CC's out. She was talking about suicide, a 70yo woman who worked her whole life, raised kids and saved for a retirement and poof, gone. I think they should give scammers the death penalty.

wikes82

Electrum had bug, that never verified responses from 3rd party electrum servers. Electrum basically light bitcoin client, so you don't have to download entire blockchain in your PC, to process transactions it send transaction data to electrum servers, some of these servers owner are bad people that can basically not push / send your transaction into blockchain, then return malicious respond to electrum that modify the receiving address to their own address, so when user did a replacement transaction with RBF, it uses that bad transaction that send the coins to the attacker address.

SirArthurPT

For the same reason warp travel isn't bothering airplanes; it doesn't exist (at least yet). And even when and if it comes to exist, blockchain protocols will adapt and surely it won't appear as an option for your living room PC. 

thtskoo

I think i got the basics down through YouTube but I still worry. Having 3 devices, having m config file. Plus I don't understand the recovery. Like if I lose my PC or want to open my wallet on another decive. How do I do that. Put in 3 passphrases? Still learning how to even start that process

El_Grosero_5150

Have a computer in 2000's doesn't equate to having one of the strongest hacking organizations in the world. You have to admit they built a powerhouse in a country where a fraction of 1% have even touched a PC. They got trained by some country. You don't just pick up those skill.

Objective_Digit

10 years experience but still using Electrum on his PC.

Top-Care-8946

Theoretically it's possible that also any new USB drives and SSD drives can be injected with some kind of backdoors if AI gets in to the manufacturing site plants where chips are installed onto PCB's. There are rumors that Binance case was possible due to the large scale (29 million computers affected ) SSH backdoor injection by AI extensions that made possible to exploit one employee's laptop/PC. So nothing is now granted unless the device (no matter of it's type or usage function) is completely disconnected from the internet. You may buy brand new Smartphone, or even peripheral devices like a new mouse for your desktop PC and you don't even know that it was already compromised at assembling phase in the manufacturing site. AI music video "Claudia is going take your private keys" for me is a prediction or warning of something more dangerous coming on because it's not possible trust anything anywhere. It's not about private keys only, it's about security and safety of any kind of systems and public services-in other words seems like stakes are going high where it would be also question of life and death (If AI compromises first responders ability to react before it's too late).

pigeonwiggle

Coming to PC early 2027! (hopefully)

DrDoom_Scroller

If several wallets with different seed phrases got drained at the same time, the problem is almost certainly your device, not the wallets. Infostealer malware or a malicious browser extension can grab keys from multiple wallets in one go. Move whatever’s left to brand-new wallets, but only set them up on a clean device, because seeds generated on an infected machine will just get drained again. Scan or fully wipe the PC, remove any extensions you don’t use, and change your email and exchange passwords.

Erowid2S

That clears things up. You likely have a virus of some kind on your phone. This means that it's likely a remote administration tool (RAT) and they can likely Livestream what you can see on your screen, log what you type, control your device remotely, and likely they automatically saved all of your passwords as soon as you were infected. They likely have snooped through all of your files and photos, looking for any seed phrases or private content that they can potentially use against you. You're going to have to factory reset your device ASAP after backing up anything important (the phone may now also infect your PC, so I recommend emailing files or storing them on a cloud storage). What phone do you use? If it's old enough, like the Note 20 Ultra, you will no longer be getting security updates, making you extremely susceptible to something like this.

amang_admin

**1. Never send life savings from a hot machine.** The moment you had >$1k in Bitcoin, the rule is: hot wallet is for spending money, like a pocket. Cold wallet / hardware wallet is the vault. You kept 10 years of savings in the pocket. Malware only needs to win once. If you had sent FROM a hardware wallet, the receiving address would be shown on the hardware screen itself. The malware on your PC can't change what the Trezor / Ledger / Coldcard displays. **2. Verify AFTER every change.** You verified before. The attack happens after you click RBF. The rule: **What you see on the computer is not what you sign. What you see on the signing device is what you sign.** Before you click "Broadcast", you must re-check the full address on: * the cold device, or * at minimum, re-copy from your watch wallet and compare the middle characters, not just first/last 4. You said it ended the same - hijackers generate vanity addresses with same prefix/suffix. **3. Small test + different flow test.** You tested hot -> cold small amount, and cold -> hot. You didn't test the *exact* flow you used for the big amount: hot -> cold -> RBF bump. Malware often allows small amounts to pass to build trust, and only swaps large amounts. Correct test: Send 0.85 as: * 0.001 with RBF bump * then 0.849 Or send in 2-3 chunks, not 90% in one tx on vacation day. **4. Clean environment for the big move.** First day of vacation, on your daily-use laptop, rushing to enjoy vacation = worst time for a migration. The safe way: * Boot Tails offline, create cold wallet * Wipe / reinstall OS on hot machine, run Malwarebytes / do not install anything else * Or use a separate clean laptop that has never been used for browsing Clipboard hijackers come from pirated software, cracked games, fake driver updates, Chrome extensions. Most people have no idea they are infected. **5. Use address whitelisting / payjoin.** If you had whitelisted that `bc1qnjtc...` address in your watch wallet, or used a hardware wallet that locks to known addresses, the wallet would have warned "unknown address".

Prestigious_Long777

Binance didnt get hacked. A guy very high up in the organisation (with access to the funds) got affected by the polymarket hack supply chain attack. Compromising their work PC and exposing binance’s wallets to hackers who stole over 6 billion. Just another example of why you’re fucking retarded to leave funds in a centralised exchange like Binance. Multiple people in that organisation can access all their funds, and they’re dumb ass idiots. They were using your money to do insider bets on polymarket.

nvidiastock

It's not that complicated, he just made it seem very life or death. You can hold your crypto in your own wallet on your PC/special devices OR you can have Binance hold it for you. If Binance is holding it for you, they might get hacked like you saw today. If you're holding it for you, your PC /device night get hacked. So people buy special devices that all the do is hold crypto, then they hide them. However if you're bragging about holding a LOT of crypto someone might come to your house and beat you up for it. Similar to how they might if you brag about holding a lot of cash under your mattress.  So, best advice is don't brag and keep it in a special device. (They're called hardware wallets if you wanna google it.) Hope that clears it up!

immersive-matthew

Agreed. It is why I have shared here in other comments air gapped wallets not on your daily driver PC.

RocketsDitto

This is why I write my seed down and never log back in unless I plan on selling. Also I never do this on a PC.

immersive-matthew

Others have pointed out that is what not specifically the hardware wallet that failed, BUT cold card is an example of one that really did fail. It is why I have been a very big proponent of using the Bitcoin Core Wallet on an air gapped PC. It is really not hard to setup especially with AI as you can ask questions. It does take some time to understand though and for sure is a barrier for many. Unsure what to say as while it is way more convenient to trust a central authority or third party company’s wallet, they are going to increasingly become targets for hacks along with anything Centralized of value. Society is not ready for the chaos heading our way.

Own-Moment-429

Some guy in his basement running a Chinese model on his gaming PC.

o_oli

I mean the point of a hardware wallet is specifically to allow you to use it on a potentially (or definitely) compromised computer and it doesn't matter right? Its absolutely miles more secure than a PC alone because it doesn't expose your private keys at all no matter whats going on with the PC itself. So that leaves the only way to be targeted is if someone physically obtains your hardware wallet and somehow extracts the private key, which yes has proven to be possible, but usually at incredible effort and expense, especially if a passphrase is used. But really for an average user who has a wallet stuck away in a safe spot this is a super unrealistic attack vector and kinda in a different category of security in my opinion anyway. I'm not personally weighing up crypto wallet choices based on how likely I am to be burgled or how secure they are during a robbery etc. There just isn't a comparable way to safely use a hot wallet than with a hardware wallet. Paper wallets are fine but impractical. Hot wallets like you're suggesting are many orders of magnitude more risk, and I think a hardware wallet exposing private keys from a software attack is just very out of the question too. I've not heard of any way this would be even slightly possible.

5150sick

He stole all of that money and only got 25 months for being a snitch. "Prosecutors also revealed that he provided substantial assistance in investigations involving other individuals." That's very unfortunate for an Inmate. Whenever someone on his cell block Googles his name the snitchery is going to pop right up. There's no PC in Florida so he's either going to be in general pop or the hole the entire time.

MasterOfCosmos

Make sure you have a clean PC

poco

Presumably at least one of those devices is their phone or PC. Also, there are options like temporary keys on a Jade where you load the seed only to sign and then it forgets them, so if they are most or compromised they contain nothing. Also, with multisig, even if every device is compromised, someone has to connect all your epubs and figure out which ones to use and how they are signing. The coordination is more complicated than just "the devices are compromised".

Blockchainauditor

1) Are we forgetting the breach involving Trezor’s shipping provider in August? 2) If we have no business owners, isn’t that a big problem? 3) If our life goal should be to HODL BTC, how does ANYTHING get done? Where does the electricity to run the PC come from?

LizardPrez

right, but once you have a valid 24 word seed phrase, how do you fund it if not using a hardware wallet? Do you plan on just using Ian Coleman on the offline PC to generate the public/private address lists, then fund them individually for long term storage? Is this too autistic? I'm concerned about inputting anything into a hardware wallet after the ledger spyware fiasco

longonbtc

I wouldn't use BitPay if I were you. BitPay is an anti-bitcoin company. BitPay supported the S2X attack on Bitcoin back in 2017. BitPay refuses to support SegWit. In fact, BitPay dropped support for native bitcoin addresses altogether. When paying a merchant that uses BitPay, Bitpay forces the customer to both register and provide BitPay with their personal information and upload a photo of their passport, driver's licence, or government ID card. [BitPay.com blocks IP address and payments to merchants based on customer's location.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DyE1M5CUUAIb5PC?format=jpg&name=medium) BitPay is partnered with a blockchain analysis firm that attempts to deanonymize users. [BitPay rejects payments that are too high without warning.](https://twitter.com/AmazonWatch/status/1164737664198688770) Rоger Vеr is a large investor and seed funder of BitPay. So it's no wonder that BitPay is anti-Bitcoin and pro-Bcash. And more! Just search around on this ѕubreddit.

statoshi

> Is there anything wrong with using an already active single sig seed phrase generated with dice? Nope, that's fine to keep using. > Do you still keep the descriptor file on your PC? Yes, doing so is no different than having a watch-only wallet on your PC. > How did you stamp the xpub/descriptor onto metal, like you would the seed phrase? I don't go this far but the only user friendly way to do so that I've come across is via a a [SeedHammer](https://seedhammer.com/).

jsh63

Yeah 100%. I invested a couple of thousand GBP in late 2013. I have sold some on the way, bought a miner, mined a few, sold a few and still have a couple. It's a six figure sum still but I am getting fed up with all the risks of theft, scamming etc. I run a full node wallet and recently my hard disk started to error. I bought a new PC and just the differences in versions of wallets and data versions was a drama. It's taken me a week to get my stack in a movable/tradable state and there were times that I thought I may lose access. Don't get me wrong, I've done ok over the past decade but sometimes its a pain in the arse. Fortunately, I'm as old as dirt so it's only a small part of my net worth otherwise I would have been out by now. Will it go to the moon? Maybe but actually nobody knows!

b1mm3rl1f3

Last few questions: Is there anything wrong with using an already active single sig seed phrase generated with dice? Do you still keep the descriptor file on your PC? How did you stamp the xpub/descriptor onto metal, like you would the seed phrase? Thank you again, I did it correctly, but it was nice to confirm with someone. I've saved the link for future reference too

JustStopppingBye

Pyth only provide data feeds and they cant even get that right. Chainlink provides much more with flawless up time and security. Heres all their 2026 incidents and effects real users. [https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/55hrj527](https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/55hrj527) [https://status.pyth.network/incidents/01KS77NK1AMS0P796ZK80YAVV9](https://status.pyth.network/incidents/01KS77NK1AMS0P796ZK80YAVV9) [https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/01KV7Q29A7FHZ6K9CSTKWKXGCC](https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/01KV7Q29A7FHZ6K9CSTKWKXGCC) [https://status.pyth.network/incidents/w1ps1yb2](https://status.pyth.network/incidents/w1ps1yb2) [https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/01KWVFYM1V1XPRV7C9QF52K36H](https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/01KWVFYM1V1XPRV7C9QF52K36H) [https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/m4d5aerj](https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/m4d5aerj) [https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/01KD7NT8GRSA4PC9PA8XHB92Z3](https://statuspage.incident.io/pyth-network-1/incidents/01KD7NT8GRSA4PC9PA8XHB92Z3) A feed that works 99% of the time can cause major problems during the 1% when markets are volatile. When youre talking about hundreds of millions of dollars at stake, this is a huge deal.

penty

I had thought about mining but didn't want to "burn up my expensive gaming PC" for pennies by getting 50 BTC every few days... D'oh. Eventually ran across the SL kiosk and that felt the safest way to buy, not catting cash to meet someone in person, no transfering $ to weird places.

xiskghferx

I think it's already overkill. I'm using just 2/2 with Ledger NanoS and Trezor3, on Sparrow on my normal PC. I have generated seed for Trezor using dice. It's highly unlikely that there my wallet could be hacked, almost impossible.

downtherabbit

So creating a Linux partition is the safest way? Or a dedicated air-gapped PC/Laptop that is never connected to the internet? I am genuinly curious because if exchanges and hardware wallets aren't the best, what is the best!?!?

10kpizza

If people had put their coldcard or ledger in a 2-of-2 with an ordinary online malware-ridden windows PC, they would still have their money today. Multisig this way is great for protecting against supply chain attacks, RNG attacks, bugs, zerodays. It's the same physical security as having a single sig but vastly better cybersecurity. A big benefit that nobody talks about is with 2-of-2 (or any N-of-N) you dont need to store the descriptor. The 2 seeds alone are enough. Yes there are ways to backup the descriptor but they all suck. With 2-of-2 you only need to backup the two seeds and nothing else. How many people even realize that to recover a 2-of-3 you need two seeds and **the third pubkey**. If you cant get the third pubkey you've lost it all. You can have a 2of2 with one key on a hardware wallet or airgapped laptop running Electrum or Sparrow, and the other key on an online wallet on your main desktop or phone.

Gears6

> Screen recorder or keylogger spyware on a PC or a smartphone is not a MITM either. Keylogger would be if that communication was encrypted and intended to be secret. A screen recorder isn't a man in the middle, because that's intentional by design that the content be shown on the screen. Anyhow, you're trying to make a distinction when there's none necessary.

SteveW928

Your key shouldn't be on your PC... that's the whole point of a hardware wallet. The AI shouldn't have any ability to get the key. But, yeah, the Ledger attack was unique, in that hardware was added to steal the key right from the screen that displays it to you, and then transmit it. AI can't do that, but specially designed hardware embedded in a tampered device can. So, where you buy from matters, as you greatly increase/decrease the risk of a compromised device.

Ketheres

Every form of energy degrades into heat at some point, sound and light included. And computing isn't work per se, it's still just turning power into heat in a way we can use to calculate stuff wicked fast. But a PC sucking up a kilowatt of power to do its thing is still effectively a 1 kilowatt space heater with computing power.

barnz3000

A heatpump is approximately 5 times more efficient than a bar heater, or some PC hardware..

Cilantropologist

I thought matx is what's considered as a full size PC 😂

Zestyclose-Turn-3576

I saw a secretary using a Silicon Graphics PC for ordinary secretarial work at USAF Materiel Commabnd many years ago – had to use that budget up!

Cilantropologist

There's standards for form factor. Smaller form factors have gained popularity over years but a bit of extra size is the price you pay for compatibility. There's also plenty of actual mini desktops available. I have Asus NUC as my home office PC.

MelangeBot

I have said this for over 10 years now. Rather then bitcoin meaning with heat as the byproduct it makes much more sense to heat with bitcoin as the the byproduct. If I had enough capital I would design a very effecient warm water boiler for constumers and then sell it a little bit under the price of my main competitor, even if that meant not making a profit on it. Why? Because my boilers would heat by mining bitcoin, after all a PC that draws a 100W also outputs a 100W of heat. Exactly the same as a 100W heather. And my boilers would have a 4G chip in them to connect to the miningpools. That way I am mining Bitcoin for free on the electricity of the people that bought my boilers .... but without stealing from them! Every time somebody buys a new boiler, I get more hardware. Ofcourse the only flaw in this plan is the price of the Bitcoin mining chips. But the day will come where the hardware no longer depreciates so much and new Bitcoin miner is good for 10 years. Then such a boiler/mining plan becomes feasible, if 2 years of Bitcoin mining is good for paying of all the hardware that last 10 years. Regardless, with how much electric heating we do in the world ... you know all the buildings in winter , and the outdoor swimming pools, etc etc. With all the heating there is really no need to waste 1% of the world's electricitry on Bitcoin mining. We can just heat and mine Bitcoin as the byproduct instead of the other way around.

Malavero

No. Those two are really all you need. Who cares what the UI looks like? No hardware wallet is better than these. These two are more versatile, reliable, and secure than any hardware wallet. As far as I know, no hardware wallet offers the same capabilities—such as Lightning Network management, multisig, UTXO management, fee control, etc.—as these two. You want "hardware"? Then turn it into hardware. Find an old PC you have—kept completely offline—and use Sparrow; then you can have Electrum on your regular PC just for withdrawals. No, you don't need to buy a hardware wallet.

MUFNyourteam

I was agreeing with that fact, what you do with a PC/Crypto Miner is up to you.

Correct-Potential-15

i coded my own in python and use that PC only as a wallet

MUFNyourteam

A heat pump will always be more efficient per watt. (Within its operating temperature range) But if you have a resistive space heater, that you turn on to heat a room that gets cold. It is just as efficient. This is true for most computers. LTT did a video forever ago on this exact topic. Using a PC as a space heater.

10kpizza

A big benefit that nobody talks about is with 2-of-2 (or any N-of-N) you dont need to store the descriptor. The 2 seeds alone are enough. How many people realize that to recover a 2-of-3 you need two seeds and \*all three pubkeys\*. If you cant get the third pubkey you've lost it all. If people had put their coldcard or ledger in a 2-of-2 with an ordinary online windows PC, they would still have their money today. Multisig this way is great for protecting against supply chain attacks, RNG attacks, bugs, zerodays. You can have redundancy without 2of3. I have some hard disk backups of my old photos, and they are redundant backups (the same photos copied on all the different hard disks). The hard disks are in multiple locations. What's not redundant here?

DimensionPrize8168

When I first joined the army in 2003, I was “stealing” trashed RAM, CPUs, and GPUs from PC the government didn’t want anymore. Which at the time, was the equivalent of throwing away Nvidia 5060/5070 GPUs. Like why? Why are these in the dumpster?

Drassazuru

Ah, another person fucking up the PC market to make. A quick buck.

ConstantinopleFett

3 year old software isn't safe enough, you should write your own wallet software on the 2007 PC, then you can be sure it's not malicious.

TheresNoSecondBest

>Ledger also has backdoors to extract your seed which most people aren’t aware of. Ledger is just a fancy hot wallet, marketed at newcomers because they can load in thousands of different shitcoins. NOT FULLY OPEN SOURCE. >Cold card had bad gen. That was a horrible duck up, thanks to the fact Coinkite didn't want anyone else using their software. Should they do full FOSS open source, the issue would be discovered and fixed by a different manufacturer pretty soon. NOT FULLY OPEN SOURCE. >Trezor recently had database hacked and device tampered with. People are trying to attack Trezors since a decade ago. Even the company keeps saying you should use a strong passphrase in addition to the seed words. Nothing new. >Tangem has just been hacked. I have never thought there would be a worse hardware wallet manufacturer then Ledger. I was wrong. Tangem topped up Ledger's bad reputation within very short time. Hey, it's a shitcoin wallet after all. When I'm looking for a new cold, REALLY COLD wallet, it has to be **fully open source**, **Bitcoin only**, and **air-gapped**. Can I build it up myself? Even better. SeedSigner and Krux are IMHO the best and the least talked about true Bitcoin cold wallets. Yes, you can create a cold wallet on your own old PC or mobile phone. Yes, it's easy to get bitcoin in while staying offline by using a watch only wallet or copying the receiving addresses on the go. Spending the bitcoin is much more difficult. That's where a hardware wallet excels. Hardware wallets are IMHO really great addition to security, the problem is, people jump on the first one, some rando on the internet mentions, and these people end up using a shitty device like Ledger or Tangem. Worse, they'll buy a ColdCard but let the device to generate the seed words instead of using dice, because of "what if something goes wrong".

RetiredAvocado

Online banking is a giant target that gets hit all the time. But they spend big money to keep your accounts safe, with firewalls, 2FA, fraud alerts, lockouts, and even deposit insurance that the banks pay for. Hardware wallets are relatively cheap consumer grade products. For a couple hundred bucks and if properly used, they do a whole lot. Many are open source, inviting copycats. Coldcard's efforts to protect their work (which they allegedly heavily borrowed from someone else too) has lead to them making mistakes, and their downfall. And it didn't stop Passport wallet people from basing their product on Coldcards. And all that is a good thing, making these special purpose devices more accessible to people with multiple competing offerings. I don't see myself buying a $25,000 crazy blackbox with MPC and time locks, and multisig, and NFC + eye scan, and fingerprint reader. But a $250 device that generates keys and lets me sign without exposing them.. pretty nice deal. Hardware wallet itself is not impenetrable, and likely cannot withstand physical attacks. If lost or stolen, it's best to consider it compromised, recover elsewhere, and move everything to newly created wallet with all new seed. I do not buy them believing they will securely store and defend keys forever. Safe storage is on me. And adding some entropy is also on me, with dice or passphrases, whatever. But I do trust them to sign a transaction without revealing the keys to my PC. That's what I want it to do, and I have to assume it does. As for the world moving at a fast pace, I do upgrade my wallets over time. I did have a Coldcard MK3 and it was fine, until it wasn't. But by the time the bad entropy theft happened, MK3 was 3 years without firmware updates, and guess what mine did. It was collecting dust, empty, because I've moved on from a product that reached its end of life. And that probably saved my ass, who knows. I will keep buying newer and better hardware wallets, to support the companies that make them so they can continue to improve and release new products, and to protect my coins in newer, better, more usable ways as the tech and UI and safety features get better. People upgrade $1000 phone every 2-3 years. It's not a huge leap that people can also buy a new $250 device that keeps their btc safe on about the same schedule. Learn how to use it properly, and stay at the industry's pace, and that's it. In my anecdotal one person experience, never lost any BTC, and very comfortable using my hardware wallets, kinda regularly, maybe once a week or more.

Automatic_Army3309

Thanks for the real reply. 1. Checked is the original website 100% 2. I had the id and password on the computer. 3. No idea what email I was using back then we could create dozens of wallets just with one email but not sure if I ever verified it. 4. Did try to log in from a different PC. Got same error. I do have a json but I can’t open it. Tried to use the tool decryp my walllet from the original blockchain GitHub. Not succes Need a real expert willing to help

Backrus

Did you miss the point about using iPhone exclusively as wallet, and not as a phone? Good luck "hacking" phone in Faraday's cage. Good luck exploiting battle tested open source wallets. You have no idea what you're talking about, even script kiddies know more about "exploits" than you. But your list is valid for using PC with a hardware wallet, I doubt you have dedicated box just for using blockchain.

fan_of_hakiksexydays

ooof this is terrible advice. Yes, in theory you can make a really good hardware wallet IF you REALLY know what you're doing because you need to build the right software, update it for continuous security risks, know how to do encryption to protect your key, and more importantly know how to interact online safely which is the tricky part. But you will still have one flaw you'll need to work on. There is a reason hardware wallet have their own integrated screen separate from your PC and online app, so you can verify if the software is compromised and if there is any spoofing.

Dragnskull

i've written down my most secret of secrets (financial passwords, etc) and hidden them away in a place no one would ever look and left a note on my desktop PC, I've set up a method that notifies the correct family member(s) to read the file on my desktop upon my death and in the note there's information pointing the correct family member to that exact location via a piece of knowledge only the two of us know. If I die suddenly events will unfold that guides the desired person to the desired information. If the desired person to get that info dies along with me then said information is gone forever

G-T-L-3

**Use Metal for Large Holdings:** Paper works for temporary or test setups, but grade 304 stainless steel or titanium plates protect against fire, water, and fading. Popular metal options include [Cryptosteel Capsule Solo](https://www.google.com/search?ibp=oshop&prds=pvt:hg,pvo:29,mid:576462528901184339,imageDocid:2416853081351409412,gpcid:16029306505636329243,headlineOfferDocid:10582973243871690226,catalogid:10854976345264721435,productDocid:1777040794860842803,rds:PC_16029306505636329243%7CPROD_PC_16029306505636329243&q=product&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjh4Nmjw7CXAxXVwjgGHRFeE4IQxa4PegoIAggACAAIFBAJ), [Billfodl](https://www.ledger.com/academy/bip-39-the-low-key-guardian-of-your-crypto-freedom), and Cryptotag Zeus. Don't know why you're being down-voted though. I think I've seen enough hacks on cold-wallets to not put large amounts in them (which I wish I had)

Backrus

No, a iPhone is a different architecture than amd64 PC. Your phone doesn't have to be connected to the internet. It doesn't even have to be on, and you can use Faraday's cage. 3rd paragraph is just imaginary problems, when you assume you use that spare phone as phone, and not as just wallet. Ofc you set up your phone accordingly to that use case. If you want to transmit tx, you have to connect to net anyway at some point, even if you're airgapping to PC. Infinitely more secure than hardware you can't verify. Hardware wallet is against basic "don't trust, verify" principle, but y'all got finessed into thinking that it's somehow good setup by shillers and podcaters (Ledger, Cold card, etc). Spoiler, it's not unless you use at least 3/5 multisig. And even then, like I said, y'all lack technical know-how to verify if hardware does only what it is supposed to do. Not to mention vibe coded software. Zachxbt also shares similar opinion on hardware wallets, and advises to never use them. Just like most BTC OGs. You do you, but parroting marketing talking points isn't good. Good luck.

MelangeBot

It's very simpple to put your key in to bitcoin software on your computer, but the moment you do all the hardware on your PC has the secret as well. All the software has the secret, and the entire internet has the software. By bye coins!

MelangeBot

A PC that was made before 2007 that you physically disable the network card on with old linux and Elektrum software where you check the GPG signatures against as many possible sources you can find. Then when you are alone with zero electronic devices around and your internet shut down you have this PC generate your seeds. You write them down on paper. And then you never update. This PC will act like a hardware wallet. using qr codes or a thumb drive you bring a unsigned transaction over from your laptop or desktop that is connected to the internet. You sign them on your offline PC and then bring the signed tx back where it can be broadcasted. Same as a hardware wallet but because the hardware is from before 2007 you can 100% know it was not tampered with to try and steal Bitcoin. And on the software side you use software at least 2 or 3 years old and you verify the signatures againt 20 or so different sources to make sure it's legit. Now you can be 100% sure the software wasn't tampered with eithere. And then you NEVER update. Imagine Trezor or ledger the company gets hacked and the hacker publish a new firmware and then you update. Boom, coins are gone!

MelangeBot

Find a desktop computer that was build before 2008. remove all network capabilities, if it has a lan card on it, physically sabotage it. Find a good and trusted source for the hashes of older versions of linux mint or any extremely popular linux distributions. Use a thumb drive to install linux on it. Download Elektrum, check the hash and find the PGP keys of the developers and quadruplle check them against as many sources as you can possibly can. Once you are absolutely sure you older signde versions of a popular linux distro and Eletrum have both installed on this offline desktop PC. Then it's there that you have that machine randomly come up with your seeds. Make sure you are alone in the room with no phones or no electronics nearby other then the desktop PC and create your seed and write them down on paper. Copy the xpubkey to your thumb drive and install Elektrum also on your online PC. Import the xpubkey there, now you have a watch wallet. You can see but not spend. Now when you need to make a transaction you can make it on the online computer but it's not signed. Save the unsigned tx on your thumb drive and sign it on the offline pc. Then bring it back to broadcast. Make sure the offline PC has a bios password, has a good strong linux password and uses an encrypted partition! (extremeley important). Or if you already have like an trezor model T for many years and you NEVER HAVE UPDATED THE FIRMWARE AND NEVER WILL, you are also safe.

stumblinbear

USBs are not safe, because that necessarily requires you to save your keys on it somehow. Which means they exist on your PC at some point. And you have to plug it into a PC to use it

Ramast

I think one good added level of security is to create your wallet first and then import it into your ledger/trezor. The reason is that most compromised devices are designed to generate predictable wallet addresses that attackers could then drain later. Importing an existing wallet protect you from this sort of attack. Of course a much more sophisticated compromised hardware wallets could - in theory - send the attacker your wallet keys directly so this is not fool proof but it helps. Also there is of course the risk that the software you use to generate wallet key or the PC running the software are compromised. so you decide what is best for you

MelangeBot

Soooo much shit has already happened with ledger that if you still use them or bought them after I can only conclused that getting your crypto stolen is a kink. Fuck it I don't even fully trust trezor either, I have a model-T I bought years ago but the bulk of my Bitcoin is on a old desktop PC that was made before 2007 without any network capabilities running linux mint and electrum. on my normal PC I use electrum to make unsigned transactions then put those on a tumb drive and sign em on the offline pc then broadcast on my online PC. Since I have had that PC from before satoshi invented Bitcoin it can't be compromised and I verified all the PGP keys of the bitcoin software I installed. Been using it since 2013 and not gotten hacked yet, the most Bitcoin that was ever on there was maybe 300 or so. So I must be doing something right ... But yeah if you have an old enough trezor you DIRECTLY bought from trezor and you also set up a new seed and you NEVER update it then you are probablly safe ... still it's not impossible somebody intercepted it before it was delivered at your house ....

Lolvidar

At the start of every course I would set up a Gemini gem designed to function as an expert in that course's subject. If you're not familiar with these, a Gemini Gem can be considered as either a custom mini-agent or a persistently prompted LLM wrapper, depending on whether you go by Google's marketing definition or the technical definition. It's easy to set up and there are tons of YouTube videos on the subject. It's simpler to do it on your PC rather than on your phone.  I would use Gemini's Pro model, which, if I'm not mistaken, is available to students at a discount these days. It's way more effective at complex tasks (like tutoring a student) than their Flash model. I would give the gem a title and a short description, and in the gem's instructions block I would tell it: \- What role it was performing  \- What skills it was an expert in \- What tools it was an expert at \- What our objective was \- My personal preferences on how I wanted it to perform its task  As an example of personal preferences, I would always include the instruction to keep a professional tone and avoid any unnecessary "back patting" and encouragement. I'd upload to the gem whatever documents I thought would make for a good knowledge base. If I could get a digital copy of the course's textbook, I'd upload that. Including the course name and number, along with the school I was in, often made the gem even more helpful. Sometimes I would get Gemini to help me write the gem instructions.  The result was an effective tutor and study partner that was available 24 hours a day. I passed every final on the first try.

DankShibe

Negus using a software wallet on a PC instead of a Samsung /Google / Apple phone or something else with secure element and biometrics and also downloads random shit . You deserve what you get

Dragnskull

1. i can barely understand what you type because it's in jumbled english that seems to be paired with various auto-correct mistakes 2. i don't know what happened to you im a stranger on the internet 3. but i can tell you just because you had a virus on a completely different PC a decade ago doesn't mean the person that ran that virus was the BTC thief from 5 days ago, especially if you've long since replaced devices and changed and used new passwords since. 4. i can also tell you your password for the btc wallets secret phrase wasn't brute forced because the average time to do so would be MILLIONS of years now, what COULD have happened: if you were infected with a virus, changed passwords on that PC first, THEN replaced the pc, your new passwords could have been compromised immediately as you would have used them on the already infected PC. if you did that then sure, someone could have been watching your accounts and linked them to enough to be able to get access to however you stored your BTC. Again, i don't know what happened but your account wasnt brute forced, and even if it was (it wasn't) there's no reason to imagine there's a lone hacker running malware from a decade ago whos been sitting and watching you become a millionaire for a decade then pulling the trigger to brute force your password with future tech that doesn't exist yet.

Dragnskull

what you're describing is standard malware from 10 years ago, nothing special. there's no scenario where an infection from 10 years resulted in 1 million in lost BTC after you've changed addresses and replaced computers and gone a decade into the future with all new passwords and hardware. if your story is true then then whoever did it is unrelated to a virus you had 10 years ago on another PC with old passwords you long since changed.

Sonidista84

You get another hw wallet and input the phrase there. NEVER on the PC.

eazybreeze

I do. But what if I need to recover that hardware wallet some day, and need to enter that seed phrase into my PC.

eazybreeze

How would one scan their PC for such malware? I've always used Malwarebytes in the past, is there something better ?

Successful-Plenty-27

your wallet might be drained by a virus. You might have installed a RAT hidden in some other software, and it has access to all your stored logins and automated logins (when they don't have 2FA), if you have a GPU it can be used for silent mining, and your IP can be abused as a proxy for hacking, bot traffic or carding. If you ever used cracked software or untrusted apps, and are not sure if your device is clean, it is a good idea to format that PC entirely. In that case, the lesson here is to never use apps with possible backdoors on the same device as your bitcoin wallet. A hardware device just creates an air gap so every transaction needs to be verified manually.

mfatalay

For the offline PC, I would use a very minimal OS with no network stack at all, rather than a normal Linux installation with networking disabled. It should run from USB, stay in RAM, and be stateless. Ideally, there should be no Wi-Fi/Ethernet support in the OS in the first place. On the online PC, I would use Sparrow as the watch-only coordinator. It is quite generic and works with many different signing setups. You can then move PSBTs between the two machines using USB or QR codes. There are some open-source projects taking this approach. Worth looking into.

Fun-Analysis-182

Sparrow's the usual pick for a dedicated airgapped box now: Bitcoin-only, clean PSBT signing, real coin-control. Electrum still works and is lighter, just an older feel. On the seed, "never enter it anywhere" is really about online devices and websites. A permanently-offline machine is safer, but a general-purpose PC still writes to RAM and disk, so a dedicated hardware signer where the seed never touches a computer is the cleaner setup.

bitusher

> if Im running an airgapped setup, no system can know I made a new wallet with my own passphrase. any malware that exists on the PC when you created the wallet or when you use it would . You can get malware even with no networking > It already has a receive address tho. The addresses in the wallet with the seed are completely different than the addresses in the wallet with the seed +extended passphrase >but doesnt the phrase need to be set up while making the wallet? Yes, which is why most people do this in an environment that has a smaller attack surface like a HW wallet and if you don't than that is why I asked you that long list of questions at the start >Im not storing the seed or the phrase in the pc With your original plan you would be. The seed would be encrypted in your wallet and the extended passphrase would be typed into the PC when you decided to send a transaction or make a PSBT >I understand once you generated a seed you cant just add a passphrase later. Incorrect . You can add an extended passphrase at any time to create a new wallet >And wouldnt making up your own words for a custom seed be more secure? That is the worst idea. Humans are horrible forms of entropy. The words need to be random. All extended passphrases should ideally be created as explained with dice or other means to create sufficient entropy >I thought the seed was just a way to access a certain part of the blockchain that made you put money in or out Most wallets use hierarchical deterministic (HD) key derivation after bip32. This means you have **Backup Seed words (BIP 39 or other)** consisting of 12-24 words that can than recover **Master extended private key (xpriv,ypriv,zpriv)** Which can generate many private keys **Master extended public key(xpub/ypub/zpub)** Which can generate many public keys As of which from the public keys many Bitcoin addresses can be derived from.

SpendHefty6066

You really should look into SeedSigner for a truly air gapped signing device. A PC does not make a good wallet. A PC makes a great node server. Use it for that. PC for your node, Sparrow for your software wallet, and SeedSigner for signing transactions. SeedSigner would be the only device that ever gets the seed. And it is stateless, so when you unplug it, all memory is wiped including the seed.

bitusher

> small chance that the same seed can be given to someone else as well? This is called a "collision" and while technically true is so unlikely that our solar system will likely end long before this happens due to how much entropy Bitcoin has so its nothing you should even consider to be worried about. >Also since you can make passphrases or even add custom seed words in electrum how do they work? It creates a completely new wallet that is hidden. More discussed in the pinned FAQ https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/g42ijd/faq_for_beginners/fouo3kh/ Keep in mind that extended passphrases need to be exact. Whitespace and capitalization matter unlike BIP39 seed words. Thus you should test it https://old.reddit.com/r/BitcoinBeginners/comments/1wjlevd/do_you_actually_test_your_recovery_phrase_or_just/pakeutr/ and be very clear how you right it down (and keep separate than your seed words). Additionally extended passphrases should be 6-8 **random** words as well **this doesn't directly address my concerns with your setup because if the seed words and passphrase are both setup in the same PC than that is a security concern** This is much different than setting you your extended passphrase in a hw wallet itself or elsewhere >From what I understand the seed allows you to control a certain part of the blockchain, no , creates a new wallet with different addresses >custom words are what you make them, no phrases , no sentences . You should ideally use dice to select these 6-8 random words https://www.eff.org/dice >Is the blockchain infinite as well? mathematically not , but so much entropy it may as well be

bitusher

>it still doesnt have any wifi passwords in it and disconnected the wifi dongle isnt that enough? If you never introduced the wifi passcode to the offline PC (like you downloaded sparrow elsewhere and moved it over with a memory stick) than it depends upon the strength of the wifi password Technically speaking a worm or malware can "crawl" over to your offline PC as you are doing PSBTs if you are not careful and share the wifi password or not even enable networking but just use keylogger software to record the passphrase you type in to share later. There are more attack vectors than just wifi networking and insuring no wifi networking doesn't stop all attacks. Hardware wallets limit the attack surface in many ways and not merely just lacking a wifi card

bitusher

Even an expert former Bitcoin core dev who used this backup method failed and had most his Bitcoin stolen so simply creating an "air gapped" computer is not enough. I suggest you use a linux live USB to create a new separate seed with multiple addresses for future deposits . Copy the seed down at least twice on paper or metal to store in separate locations. Use this as a cold wallet that you never send money from and keep distinct from the wallet you occasionally transact from. Consider one as your long term savings and the other wallet as your short term "checking account" that you might occasionally use . For your wallet you might send transactions from this might be a hot wallet in ios or android or your offline PC that you can either choose to temporarily use PSBTs or enable networking and not the linux live usb you temporarily used without persistence to create your main savings wallet

bitusher

For others to read - Its much more ideal to physically remove the wifi card , but at least disable the networking in the OS . Keep in mind that the right malware can potentially re-enable the networking. A hardware wallet physically doesn't have a wifi card typically which is one of many reasons it has a smaller attack surface. >and take it out when I need it and dont I need a pc to do transactions, how else can I do it? That is a contradiction. Taking it out literally means making a transaction which requires direct or indirect network access, thus making your PC no longer "cold" by definition. You can reduce the risk by 1) using a hardware wallet instead 2) Using offline qr code signing (typically used with a hw wallet) 3) Using PSBTs/ Partially Signed Bitcoin Transactions (with or without a HW wallet) Sparrow technically supports PSBTs but this is more complicated and advanced so you need to practice using it and understand that this limits and doesn't necessarily prevent malware or worms compromising your PC so you need to be careful. Hardware wallets simplify all of this. Choosing not to use one creates a lot of concerns and tradeoffs which are fine but you need to understand your choices Is this an issue where you cant afford a hardware wallet or just dont trust any of them ?

bitusher

>but Im guessing typing it on an airgapped pc is ok? You will have no choice but to enter the seed because you have made the decision to not use a hardware wallet that would normally keep the seed encrypted. With a hardware wallet you would pair it to sparrow or electrum and **not enter the seed**. You have made another decision which has its own set of tradeoffs. 1)Is your offline PC running a security focused OS such as Qubes at least ? 2) Since your offline PC has a much wider attack surface than a hardware wallet have you at least attempted to disable networking in multiple ways like removing the wifi card ? 3) Is the OS a new install or a version of linux live without persistence ? 4) Are you only planning on receiving transactions or also sending transactions out ? If so than why do you need the PC at all after you create the seed and multiple addresses? 5) If you will be sending outbound transactions how will you accomplish this with a offline "cold" airgapped pc? 6) How was the seed originally created ?

johnpress

When bitcoin was new you could go on a website, click a button and you're get like 50 btc. Thousands of BTC on my mom's PC probably hawked for drugs over a decade ago RIP. Good job on your milestone though!

BannanaPepperPizza

Bro I mined 300 of those in between WoW raids in school on a piece of shit computer and then threw the PC in the trash because wtf was I going to do with Bitcoin 15 years ago.

austin-delts

Sorry but building a bunch of websites is not the same as AI. AI is about as transformative as the internet or PC itself, or maybe even electricity. The .com bubble happened not because the internet was an issue but because people were trying to build every possible use case of everything as a website. Today, there are like 3-5 real hyperscalers and they are building concentrated services that will power literally everything in the future. Saying there is an AI bubble is the same as the people who were saying we were in a PC bubble in the 70s, not the same as the .com bubble, and you see how the PC bubble turned out.

faisal_yk26

Yeah, the site's a bit confusing. That big green download button on the homepage is actually Bisq 1. Open the "Downloads" menu at the top and scroll down to the "Bisq2 Downloads" section, that's the one you want. Bisq Easy isn't a separate program, it's the trading mode inside Bisq 2. So install Bisq 2, open it, and Bisq Easy is right there. If you're on Android you can skip the PC entirely. "Bisq Easy Mobile" is on Google Play and it's the same thing. Just don't grab "Bisq Connect", that one needs a Bisq node running somewhere else.

crunchyeyeball

I can see that you previously used [Metamask](https://www.reddit.com/r/defi/comments/1kl5r9h/curvefi_hacked/), and a [service (curve finance)](https://www.reddit.com/r/defi/comments/1kl5r9h/curvefi_hacked/) which has suffered multiple hacks & exploits. Were your Electrum keys generated by, and unique to, Electrum? were they ever shared with any external software? Did you ever install software from curve? and was it on the same PC as Electrum?