BIP

CointestMod

#Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Blendzi0r which won 1st place in the Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # What is Bitcoin Cash (BCH)? > > Bitcoin Cash is a [hard fork](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hard-fork.asp) of Bitcoin. It was launched in 2017. [It has 32MB blocks instead of Bitcoin’s 1MB](https://www.coindesk.com/learn/2015/08/21/what-is-the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-and-why-does-it-matter/), so it can handle many more transactions per second (TPS). And that’s the main difference between BTC and BCH, as its goal was to tackle [Bitcoin’s scalability problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_scalability_problem) without the second layer solutions. > > # What are the pros of BCH? > > ​ > > **IT’S MORE SCALABLE THAN BITCOIN** > > As mentioned in the introduction, BCH has bigger blocks than Bitcoin. It allows the network to handle more than 200 TPS compared to Bitcoin’s 7. [Transactions on Bitcoin Cash are faster and transaction fees are lower](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-cash-whats-difference/#citation-4). > > The average transaction fee on BCH network usually stays substantially below one cent while an average transaction fee on Bitcoin network is usually much above $2 and during congestion, like earlier this year, can even reach [more than $60](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html). > > ​ > > **IT’S BASED ON BITCOIN…** > > As a hard fork of Bitcoin, BCH offers many benefits of Bitcoin fundamentals, like anonymity, reliability (they both use the same cryptographic hash functions - [Secure Hash Algorithm 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2)), limited number of coins that will ever be issued ([21 million](https://decrypt.co/34876/why-is-bitcoins-supply-limit-set-to-21-million), same as Bitcoin) and, last but not least, the codebase. > > ​ > > **… BUT IT HAS MORE FUNCTIONS AND UPGRADES…** > > BCH is utilizing smart contracts, including [Cashscript](https://cashscript.org/). Cashscript will bring [DeFi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_finance) into Bitcoin Cash, so it might compete with other DeFi platforms. There are also other developments like CashSuffle and CashFusion that [further improve privacy on social networks](https://changelly.com/blog/btc-vs-bch/). > > And while Bitcoin had it's last upgrade in 2017, Bitcoin Cash is upgraded regularly. The [last upgrade](https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-cash-upgrades-successfully-network-works-as-intended/) was applied in May this year and was focused on improving the user-experience and double-spending protection. BCH developers are also aware of the past tensions that resulted in hard forks and decided to implement [CHIPs](https://bch.info/en/chips) that are supposed to make future upgrades more off-centered, independent and overall smoother. > > ​ > > **… AND IT’S CLOSER TO WHAT SATOSHI NAKAMOTO INTENDED** > > In July 2017 [Roger Ver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver) and others stated they felt that adopting BIP 91 (that would later activate [SegWit](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/segwit-segregated-witness.asp)) favored people who wanted to treat bitcoin as a digital investment rather than as a transactional currency. That's why Bitcoin Cash was created. > > In the [whitepaper](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf), Satoshi Nakamoto intended Bitcoin to be a transactional currency - “an electronic cash system". But today, it needs to rely on the second layer solutions in order to achieve that, therefore [some people argue](https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/roger-ver-bitcoin-cash-is-a-better-investment-than-bitcoin/) that Bitcoin Cash is closer to what Nakamoto described. > > ​ > > **IT’S ONE OF THE MOST ACCEPTED CRYPTOCURRENCIES** > > As of 21.10.2021, [1168 merchants accept Bitcoin Cash](https://acceptbitcoin.cash/). And despite the fact that Bitcoin has risen in value since the hard fork while Bitcoin Cash has dropped in value a little, it’s still one of the most popular coins and the project is continuously developed. > > ​ > > **SUMMARY** > > Although Bitcoin Cash supporters claim that it can do whatever Bitcoin does but better and although it is one of the most popular cryptocurrencies that is constantly updated, it's impossible to deny the fact that it has lost against Bitcoin when it comes to adoption. And, unfortunately for BCH, it's all about adoption. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ovmtt8/rcc_cointest_coin_inquiries_bitcoin_cash/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin_Cash) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

mreed911

Why would you need to trust a hardware wallet based on a BIP39 passphrase?

loudan32

Thank you. Your posts are great! I normally try to search before i ask, but the probablem is not knowing what to search for. BIP-39 was the key piece i was missing for my second part. Regarding how safe a HW wallet is in real life against a thug, reseting on wrong pins and passphrases seems to be the answer. Not sure if i fully grasp how passphrases should be used though.

loudan32

Thanks! I'm curious why you were downvoted. Anything factually wrong here? The BIP39 detail was actually the key piece that made the whole thing make sense to me. The second part of my question was only because i thought that seedprases were specific to each wallet provider.

Think_Operation310

Muun is nice to use but can't send to a Lightning address (LNURL). Phoenix, Bluewallet no problem. when you send to Muun or Bluewallet you're still on chain, when you send to phoenix you're directly in a Lightning channel but the wallet uses BIP39 seed.

CointestMod

#Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Blendzi0r which won 1st place in the Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # What is Bitcoin Cash (BCH)? > > Bitcoin Cash is a [hard fork](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hard-fork.asp) of Bitcoin. It was launched in 2017. [It has 32MB blocks instead of Bitcoin’s 1MB](https://www.coindesk.com/learn/2015/08/21/what-is-the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-and-why-does-it-matter/), so it can handle many more transactions per second (TPS). And that’s the main difference between BTC and BCH, as its goal was to tackle [Bitcoin’s scalability problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_scalability_problem) without the second layer solutions. > > # What are the pros of BCH? > > ​ > > **IT’S MORE SCALABLE THAN BITCOIN** > > As mentioned in the introduction, BCH has bigger blocks than Bitcoin. It allows the network to handle more than 200 TPS compared to Bitcoin’s 7. [Transactions on Bitcoin Cash are faster and transaction fees are lower](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-cash-whats-difference/#citation-4). > > The average transaction fee on BCH network usually stays substantially below one cent while an average transaction fee on Bitcoin network is usually much above $2 and during congestion, like earlier this year, can even reach [more than $60](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html). > > ​ > > **IT’S BASED ON BITCOIN…** > > As a hard fork of Bitcoin, BCH offers many benefits of Bitcoin fundamentals, like anonymity, reliability (they both use the same cryptographic hash functions - [Secure Hash Algorithm 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2)), limited number of coins that will ever be issued ([21 million](https://decrypt.co/34876/why-is-bitcoins-supply-limit-set-to-21-million), same as Bitcoin) and, last but not least, the codebase. > > ​ > > **… BUT IT HAS MORE FUNCTIONS AND UPGRADES…** > > BCH is utilizing smart contracts, including [Cashscript](https://cashscript.org/). Cashscript will bring [DeFi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_finance) into Bitcoin Cash, so it might compete with other DeFi platforms. There are also other developments like CashSuffle and CashFusion that [further improve privacy on social networks](https://changelly.com/blog/btc-vs-bch/). > > And while Bitcoin had it's last upgrade in 2017, Bitcoin Cash is upgraded regularly. The [last upgrade](https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-cash-upgrades-successfully-network-works-as-intended/) was applied in May this year and was focused on improving the user-experience and double-spending protection. BCH developers are also aware of the past tensions that resulted in hard forks and decided to implement [CHIPs](https://bch.info/en/chips) that are supposed to make future upgrades more off-centered, independent and overall smoother. > > ​ > > **… AND IT’S CLOSER TO WHAT SATOSHI NAKAMOTO INTENDED** > > In July 2017 [Roger Ver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver) and others stated they felt that adopting BIP 91 (that would later activate [SegWit](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/segwit-segregated-witness.asp)) favored people who wanted to treat bitcoin as a digital investment rather than as a transactional currency. That's why Bitcoin Cash was created. > > In the [whitepaper](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf), Satoshi Nakamoto intended Bitcoin to be a transactional currency - “an electronic cash system". But today, it needs to rely on the second layer solutions in order to achieve that, therefore [some people argue](https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/roger-ver-bitcoin-cash-is-a-better-investment-than-bitcoin/) that Bitcoin Cash is closer to what Nakamoto described. > > ​ > > **IT’S ONE OF THE MOST ACCEPTED CRYPTOCURRENCIES** > > As of 21.10.2021, [1168 merchants accept Bitcoin Cash](https://acceptbitcoin.cash/). And despite the fact that Bitcoin has risen in value since the hard fork while Bitcoin Cash has dropped in value a little, it’s still one of the most popular coins and the project is continuously developed. > > ​ > > **SUMMARY** > > Although Bitcoin Cash supporters claim that it can do whatever Bitcoin does but better and although it is one of the most popular cryptocurrencies that is constantly updated, it's impossible to deny the fact that it has lost against Bitcoin when it comes to adoption. And, unfortunately for BCH, it's all about adoption. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ovmtt8/rcc_cointest_coin_inquiries_bitcoin_cash/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin_Cash) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

Quintin_Ledger

You actually have a pretty good understanding of what you should be prioritizing. The seed phrase for your accounts is absolutely the most important part of all of this. If you were to lose that you would lose all of the crypto associated with it. A hardware wallet is usually there to make it more convenient to interact with your crypto while keeping your seed phrase secure. If you want to do anything with your crypto you aren't going to want to enter it into a software wallet to do that. The Ledger device is compatible with and generates seed phrases that are compatible with the BIP 39 standard. This means that even if Ledger goes under you will be able to take your seed phrase to any other BIP 39 compatible wallet and recover your funds that way.

DanK91

The seed phrase generated by a Ledger or Trezor use the BIP39 standard for words. These are 2048 unique words, in which the first 4 letters are always different. If Ledger goes under, you can import your seed into another hardware wallet that supports BIP39, of which there are many. It has become an industry standard

CointestMod

#Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Blendzi0r which won 1st place in the Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # What is Bitcoin Cash (BCH)? > > Bitcoin Cash is a [hard fork](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hard-fork.asp) of Bitcoin. It was launched in 2017. [It has 32MB blocks instead of Bitcoin’s 1MB](https://www.coindesk.com/learn/2015/08/21/what-is-the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-and-why-does-it-matter/), so it can handle many more transactions per second (TPS). And that’s the main difference between BTC and BCH, as its goal was to tackle [Bitcoin’s scalability problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_scalability_problem) without the second layer solutions. > > # What are the pros of BCH? > > ​ > > **IT’S MORE SCALABLE THAN BITCOIN** > > As mentioned in the introduction, BCH has bigger blocks than Bitcoin. It allows the network to handle more than 200 TPS compared to Bitcoin’s 7. [Transactions on Bitcoin Cash are faster and transaction fees are lower](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-cash-whats-difference/#citation-4). > > The average transaction fee on BCH network usually stays substantially below one cent while an average transaction fee on Bitcoin network is usually much above $2 and during congestion, like earlier this year, can even reach [more than $60](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html). > > ​ > > **IT’S BASED ON BITCOIN…** > > As a hard fork of Bitcoin, BCH offers many benefits of Bitcoin fundamentals, like anonymity, reliability (they both use the same cryptographic hash functions - [Secure Hash Algorithm 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2)), limited number of coins that will ever be issued ([21 million](https://decrypt.co/34876/why-is-bitcoins-supply-limit-set-to-21-million), same as Bitcoin) and, last but not least, the codebase. > > ​ > > **… BUT IT HAS MORE FUNCTIONS AND UPGRADES…** > > BCH is utilizing smart contracts, including [Cashscript](https://cashscript.org/). Cashscript will bring [DeFi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_finance) into Bitcoin Cash, so it might compete with other DeFi platforms. There are also other developments like CashSuffle and CashFusion that [further improve privacy on social networks](https://changelly.com/blog/btc-vs-bch/). > > And while Bitcoin had it's last upgrade in 2017, Bitcoin Cash is upgraded regularly. The [last upgrade](https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-cash-upgrades-successfully-network-works-as-intended/) was applied in May this year and was focused on improving the user-experience and double-spending protection. BCH developers are also aware of the past tensions that resulted in hard forks and decided to implement [CHIPs](https://bch.info/en/chips) that are supposed to make future upgrades more off-centered, independent and overall smoother. > > ​ > > **… AND IT’S CLOSER TO WHAT SATOSHI NAKAMOTO INTENDED** > > In July 2017 [Roger Ver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver) and others stated they felt that adopting BIP 91 (that would later activate [SegWit](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/segwit-segregated-witness.asp)) favored people who wanted to treat bitcoin as a digital investment rather than as a transactional currency. That's why Bitcoin Cash was created. > > In the [whitepaper](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf), Satoshi Nakamoto intended Bitcoin to be a transactional currency - “an electronic cash system". But today, it needs to rely on the second layer solutions in order to achieve that, therefore [some people argue](https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/roger-ver-bitcoin-cash-is-a-better-investment-than-bitcoin/) that Bitcoin Cash is closer to what Nakamoto described. > > ​ > > **IT’S ONE OF THE MOST ACCEPTED CRYPTOCURRENCIES** > > As of 21.10.2021, [1168 merchants accept Bitcoin Cash](https://acceptbitcoin.cash/). And despite the fact that Bitcoin has risen in value since the hard fork while Bitcoin Cash has dropped in value a little, it’s still one of the most popular coins and the project is continuously developed. > > ​ > > **SUMMARY** > > Although Bitcoin Cash supporters claim that it can do whatever Bitcoin does but better and although it is one of the most popular cryptocurrencies that is constantly updated, it's impossible to deny the fact that it has lost against Bitcoin when it comes to adoption. And, unfortunately for BCH, it's all about adoption. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ovmtt8/rcc_cointest_coin_inquiries_bitcoin_cash/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin_Cash) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

Narmotur

Apparently transactions with the same TXID are handled via BIP30, more info here: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/40444/what-happens-when-two-txids-collide https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0030.mediawiki

gowithflow192

The 25th word means if they find 24 words they still need the 25th (which is totally custom, not from the BIP-39 word list) OR they need your 8 digit numeric pin which is used to unlock your Ledger (if you use this feature you have 2 pins, one for regular 24 words, one for 25 words). Now of course what to do with 25th word? Do you you write it down or keep it in your head? If you do the latter and get a bump on the head and amnesia, you lose it all. To be honest, even with 24 words if you get amnesia you might forget you even have 24 words somewhere and what they are for. So you might wanna consider instructions left with a lawyer or something. I think people are only doing this if they hold like 6 figures USD worth of crypto. You can see why crypto is not yet mainstream, so frickin complicated just to keep your coins secure! In my opinion, we'll only get mainstream adoption when we have real custody as safe as leaving money in the bank.

Awkward-Edge-5712

bitcoin can be edited through BIP ( Bitcoin Improvement Proposals ) you can go now n propouse change the minimun unit from 8 digits to.... lets say 16 digits, so 1 satoshi = 0.0000000000000001 for sure, today, your proposal would not progress of course but in a future, maybe :)

igadjeed

This doesn't seem to be a significant change. It's only removing the need for the user to enable RBF in the wallet, for flagging each transaction as BIP125 replaceable. The same effect would occur if all wallets enabled BIP125 RBF by default Also, because *mempoolfullrbf* defaults to OFF, and few node operators even know how to edit a text file to change bitcoin.conf, the gradual implementation of BIP125 in wallets is going to happen faster than this option is adopted in the node network No objection to this, just pointing out that the people objecting to it are misguided. This debate ended in 2016. RBF is real. It's a bit hard to use, to the extent that a few wallets don't support it, and many still have it off by default In this sub and the other, there are a group of helpers quick to recommend RBF for the "help, stuck transaction" posts. This help would be more effective is it was universal. Too many users claim it's not available, or they submitted the original with RBF off I assume the fee rate boost rule has not changed Adding *mempoolfullrbf* to my node when I upgrade to 24.0

RemovingAllDoubt

>This version of Bitcoin Core adds a new mempoolfullrbf configuration option which allows users to change the policy their individual node will use for relaying and mining unconfirmed transactions. The option defaults to the same policy that was used in previous releases and no changes to node policy will occur if everyone uses the default. Some Bitcoin services today expect that the first version of an unconfirmed transaction that they see will be the version of the transaction that ultimately gets confirmed---a transaction acceptance policy sometimes called "first-seen". The Bitcoin Protocol does not, and cannot, provide any assurance that the first version of an unconfirmed transaction seen by a particular node will be the version that gets confirmed. If there are multiple versions of the same unconfirmed transaction available, only the miner who includes one of those transactions in a block gets to decide which version of the transaction gets confirmed. Despite this lack of assurance, multiple merchants and services today still make this assumption. There are several benefits to users from removing this first-seen simplification. One key benefit, the ability for the sender of a transaction to replace it with an alternative version paying higher fees, was realized in Bitcoin Core 0.12.0 (February 2016) with the introduction of BIP125 opt-in Replace By Fee (RBF). Since then, there has been discussion about completely removing the first-seen simplification and allowing users to replace any of their older unconfirmed transactions with newer transactions, a feature called full-RBF. This release includes a mempoolfullrbf configuration option that allows enabling full-RBF, although it defaults to off (allowing only opt-in RBF). Several alternative node implementations have already enabled full-RBF by default for years, and several contributors to Bitcoin Core are advocating for enabling full-RBF by default in a future version of Bitcoin Core. As more nodes that participate in relay and mining begin enabling full-RBF, replacement of unconfirmed transactions by ones offering higher fees may rapidly become more reliable. Contributors to this project strongly recommend that merchants and services not accept unconfirmed transactions as final, and if they insist on doing so, to take the appropriate steps to ensure they have some recourse or plan for when their assumptions do not hold.

Leungal

Thats not how multisig works. If you lose 2/3 of your entropy it becomes trivial to brute force the remaining 1/3, especially for something like BIP-39 which uses a predetermined word list which is what trezor uses to generate seed phrases.

Technologhee

There is very active development on bitcoin. Have you tried submitting a BIP for the adaptations and improvements you think are necessary?

brandonholm

These are a terrible idea. You’re trusting the company that generated the private key and passphrase. It also forces address reuse which is a bad idea. It’s also vulnerable to water/fire damage and there’s no simple way to make a backup like with a BIP39 mnemonic. Don’t do it, stay away from this.

EffOffReddit

If it's not that difficult, this sub wouldn't be full of people constantly talking about the multifactor steps they take in basically their own financial language to prevent themselves from becoming victims to even the most mainstream "safe" crypto businesses. I am reminded of how much victim blaming happened after Mt. Gox. Imagine being a mid 60's person thinking about getting into BTC reading "If you create your own wallet by generating a BIP39 recovery seed..." Also imagine knowing that if you fuck up, you open yourself to having all your crypto stolen easily and without any chance of even catching the theives. And what they don't know is that an incomprehensible wall of "Bro you should have (taken an enormous amount of unreasonable precations that you wouldn't have had to deal with if you stuck to regular finance)"

ProstheticEmu

1 - If the seed is not visible in the screenshot I don't see how there could be any useful information to extract from the screenshot. 2 - Using the app in someway to get the seed is likely your only viable option, whether thats extracting the wallet data or something else. The app is the weakest link by far. 3 - This question made me curious about the odds so I did some math:   BIP 39 seedphrases can consist of 12 or 24 words chosen from a predetermined list of 2048 words. Duplicate words are allowed in the seedphrase. Here's a link that shows all the BIP 39 words and a breakdown by starting letter https://www.blockplate.com/pages/bip-39-wordlist   The letter that words start with the most is 'S' - there are 250 words starting with S The letter that words start with the least is 'Z' - there are only 4 words starting with Z   Since the odds vary depending on which words a seedphrase is made up of, let's find the best and worst case scenario.   **Best case scenario** If every word in the seedphrase starts with a 'Z' then for each of the 24 words in the seedphrase we have a 1 in 4 chance of guessing correctly. The odds are then calculated as the probability of gessing the first word (1/4) multiplyed by the probability of guessing the second word (1/4) multipled by the probability of guessing the 3rd word and so on. We end up multiplying (1/4) by itself 24 times or (1/4)^24 for a 24 word seed phrase or (1/4)^12 for a 12 word seedphrase. (1/4)^24 = 1 / 281474976710656 (1/4)^12 = 1 / 16777216 This gives us a: 1 in 281474976710656 chance of guessing the 24 word seedphrase. 1 in 16777216 chance of guessing the 12 word seedphrase.   **Worst case scenario** Worst case scenario is having each word start with 'S'. Following the same logic as above we get: 1 in 3552713678800500929355621337890625000000000000000000000000 chance of guessing the 24 word seedphrase. 1 in 59604644775390625000000000000 chance of guessing the 12 word seedphrase.   There is a next to zero chance that your friend's seedphrase falls directly into either of the above two scenarios (could calculate the odds of this too) so lets find the average scenario. On average there are 82 words per starting letter in the BIP 39 wordlist. (1/82)^24 and (1/82)^12 gives us: 1 in 8541466801005399527679147831234071328955826176 chance of guessing the 24 word seedphrase. 1 in 92420056270299898187776 chance of guessing the 12 word seedphrase.   TLDR: If you know the starting letter for each word guessing a 12 word seedphrase is actually within the realm of possibility given you have access to a super computer (or many). A 24 word seed phrase on the other hand is still very unlikely to be guessed even with that info.

timc84

I have a couple of these and I’ve gifted some. They are legit (as far as I know). The BIP38 intermediate process they describe on their site is safe & designed for a customer to provide a token that the manufacturer can use to make an encrypted private key that only the customer can read. Unfortunately with the consumer version of ballet wallet they do both parts so may have the private key. If you buy their pro version then you provide the token and can be certain they don’t have the private key. There is a challenge here to break into a ballet wallet for 1 BTC https://twitter.com/bobbyclee/status/1289004702122643456

StiltonG

>"Does that make it an exchange like FTX too?" General rule: If you create your own wallet by generating a BIP39 recovery seed (random 12-24 words), or mneumonic code, then you have self custody, ie. you own your own coins. Just be certain to keep your recovery seed (& any pw or pin) safe, locked away, no electronic copy whatsoever, & do not show anyone, ever. If your device dies, you can always restore on other BIP39 compatible wallets including hardware wallets. If you open an account at an exchange to use as an on / off ramp, make sure it's a reputable exchange that has withstood the test of time, and then only use it to buy/sell. Do not store your coins on their. Once you buy coins on the exchange, transfer to your own cold storage wallet address.

chucktheschmuck

all wallets are essentially key generators. And virtually all newish wallets use BIP 39 or something like it to provide you with a seed. These seeds are just a way for another wallet to use some function to re-derive the keys (public and private). Now, the private key is how you make transactions. So if you use a computer/phone and download a wallet app and create a wallet then your private key, the portion that is necessary to send money, is on that computer. A hacker can hack your computer and potentially get that private key and send money, even remotely. A HW wallet is a simple computer that is virtually impossible to hack remotely, it just doesn't really have those attack surfaces. Before hardware wallets, if you wanted to store large amounts without having the risk of being hacked, you needed to get a second laptop that was airgapped, and generate a a paper wallet that had no traces that could be accessed through the internet. To be really safe you'd destroy the printer you used to print the paper wallet. Many of us did exactly that. Those paper wallets were terrible, if you wanted to send money from the paper wallet cold storage you had to move everything to a hot wallet that could be hacked. Hardware wallets remove most of that risk and annoyance. wether you really need that depends on how much BTC you have and your risk tolerance. If you have a fair bit though it's a pretty small cost for a lot of added safety

igadjeed

> Is this safe? Probably not. Flash drives are so unreliable that you'd need 50 copies and to check them all weekly Instead, make 4 paper copies and check them all every 3 months. Replace bad copies with fresh copies Don't encrypt. Use a BIP39 passphrase instead. Do not store the passphrase and seed phrase in the same places

igadjeed

An actual double spend happened while the 2013 network failure was active. It was not malicious https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BIP_0050 I don't believe it was large, nor was the victim an exchange --- A proof-of-concept double-spend was executed on the testnet while the CVE-2018-17144 inflation bug was being investigated https://bitcoincore.org/en/2018/09/20/notice/

igadjeed

Use TailOS. It's an amnesiac variant of Linux. Boot from a USB drive. Do things, shut down. It remembers nothing It has a copy of Electrum built-in, and Electrum will restore a wallet from a BIP39 seed phrase. If you enter the correct derivation path - probably BIP84 if your Ledger addresses are SegWit (begins with bc1) Check that the address list created by the TAILS Electrum matches the oldest 20 addresses in your Ledger

couchguitar

I think you need to read BIP 39, BIP 44, BIP 49, and BIP 84

jwz9904

having the first letter beats having nothing. The English-language wordlist for the BIP39 standard has 2048 words. It's still gonna be a long process though.

ethanwc

Doesn’t matter. Still uses 24 seed phrase. Don’t need ledger to function in future. Have 24 seed phrase on BIP-32 and you’re fine. My seed phrase never access the web.

GhostSaudi

Bitcoin Improvement Proposal number 39 (BIP39)

igadjeed

> Do wallets implement these standards... Differently? Yes, they do The popular advice in this thread which claims all BIP39 wallets are compatible, it's not true There are multiple steps from seed phrase to chains of child secret keys. These steps are covered by * BIP39: random bitstring -> seed words -> seed * and BIP32: * seed -> master private key -> child private key chains * master private key -> master public key * child private key -> child public key * master public key -> child public key chains * child public key -> address It's not as complicated as it looks. The big point of difference from wallet to wallet is the final line, generating an address. Different types of addresses are given different tags, called derivation paths, based on the BIP number of the address type: *0* or *44* means legacy addresses (BIP44), *84* means native SegWit (BIP84). Others are discussed here: https://walletsrecovery.org/ Search down to "Explainer: Derivation Paths" No idea about BitKeep. Trust wallet is marked BIP84 in https://walletsrecovery.org/ If you still have the old wallet, it's safer to make a new wallet than to import the seed phrase. But, this is inconvenient if you have many coins Electrum developers added a general-purpose BIP39 recovery tool a couple of years ago. Choose the BIP39 checkbox, enter the seed words. Electrum tests a variety of possible derivation paths until one or more of the addresses has funds, a sign that that's the correct derivation path Electrum is Bitcoin only

ClutchinIt

Save your money. Coinbase wallet, exodus wallet is just as safe. Move your crypto to them, make sure you save your seed phrase write down multiple places and very safe. Then delete the wallets off your phone. It’s the exact same thing and just as safe has ledger without any cost. You can recover your crypto wallet from any wallet that runs off of BIP39 which is almost standard for wallets. You can have the same wallet available on all of them at the same time. I think ledgers or any similar cold wallet device are just a scam or make people think they are safer.

CointestMod

#Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Blendzi0r which won 1st place in the Bitcoin Cash Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # What is Bitcoin Cash (BCH)? > > Bitcoin Cash is a [hard fork](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hard-fork.asp) of Bitcoin. It was launched in 2017. [It has 32MB blocks instead of Bitcoin’s 1MB](https://www.coindesk.com/learn/2015/08/21/what-is-the-bitcoin-block-size-debate-and-why-does-it-matter/), so it can handle many more transactions per second (TPS). And that’s the main difference between BTC and BCH, as its goal was to tackle [Bitcoin’s scalability problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitcoin_scalability_problem) without the second layer solutions. > > # What are the pros of BCH? > > ​ > > **IT’S MORE SCALABLE THAN BITCOIN** > > As mentioned in the introduction, BCH has bigger blocks than Bitcoin. It allows the network to handle more than 200 TPS compared to Bitcoin’s 7. [Transactions on Bitcoin Cash are faster and transaction fees are lower](https://www.investopedia.com/tech/bitcoin-vs-bitcoin-cash-whats-difference/#citation-4). > > The average transaction fee on BCH network usually stays substantially below one cent while an average transaction fee on Bitcoin network is usually much above $2 and during congestion, like earlier this year, can even reach [more than $60](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/bitcoin-transactionfees.html). > > ​ > > **IT’S BASED ON BITCOIN…** > > As a hard fork of Bitcoin, BCH offers many benefits of Bitcoin fundamentals, like anonymity, reliability (they both use the same cryptographic hash functions - [Secure Hash Algorithm 2](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2)), limited number of coins that will ever be issued ([21 million](https://decrypt.co/34876/why-is-bitcoins-supply-limit-set-to-21-million), same as Bitcoin) and, last but not least, the codebase. > > ​ > > **… BUT IT HAS MORE FUNCTIONS AND UPGRADES…** > > BCH is utilizing smart contracts, including [Cashscript](https://cashscript.org/). Cashscript will bring [DeFi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decentralized_finance) into Bitcoin Cash, so it might compete with other DeFi platforms. There are also other developments like CashSuffle and CashFusion that [further improve privacy on social networks](https://changelly.com/blog/btc-vs-bch/). > > And while Bitcoin had it's last upgrade in 2017, Bitcoin Cash is upgraded regularly. The [last upgrade](https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-cash-upgrades-successfully-network-works-as-intended/) was applied in May this year and was focused on improving the user-experience and double-spending protection. BCH developers are also aware of the past tensions that resulted in hard forks and decided to implement [CHIPs](https://bch.info/en/chips) that are supposed to make future upgrades more off-centered, independent and overall smoother. > > ​ > > **… AND IT’S CLOSER TO WHAT SATOSHI NAKAMOTO INTENDED** > > In July 2017 [Roger Ver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ver) and others stated they felt that adopting BIP 91 (that would later activate [SegWit](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/segwit-segregated-witness.asp)) favored people who wanted to treat bitcoin as a digital investment rather than as a transactional currency. That's why Bitcoin Cash was created. > > In the [whitepaper](https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf), Satoshi Nakamoto intended Bitcoin to be a transactional currency - “an electronic cash system". But today, it needs to rely on the second layer solutions in order to achieve that, therefore [some people argue](https://www.newsbtc.com/news/bitcoin/roger-ver-bitcoin-cash-is-a-better-investment-than-bitcoin/) that Bitcoin Cash is closer to what Nakamoto described. > > ​ > > **IT’S ONE OF THE MOST ACCEPTED CRYPTOCURRENCIES** > > As of 21.10.2021, [1168 merchants accept Bitcoin Cash](https://acceptbitcoin.cash/). And despite the fact that Bitcoin has risen in value since the hard fork while Bitcoin Cash has dropped in value a little, it’s still one of the most popular coins and the project is continuously developed. > > ​ > > **SUMMARY** > > Although Bitcoin Cash supporters claim that it can do whatever Bitcoin does but better and although it is one of the most popular cryptocurrencies that is constantly updated, it's impossible to deny the fact that it has lost against Bitcoin when it comes to adoption. And, unfortunately for BCH, it's all about adoption. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ovmtt8/rcc_cointest_coin_inquiries_bitcoin_cash/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Bitcoin_Cash) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

002timmy

Honestly surprising that not everybody knows this. Even if it isn’t BIP-39, you can always go from the seed phrase to the private key. That’s how you sign transactions and also never connect to private key to the internet

HumbleBitcoinPleb

The 12-24 word list is universal most of the time. You can use it to restore your keys in most wallets, doesn't have to be the same one. It's a standard. Look up BIP39.

Maxx3141

Wallets are almost all using the same standard, BIP-39. That means all you have to do is recovering your seed in another wallet.

qballis

Get any other BIP39 wallet, enter your 24 words, and you have access to your BTC.

Think_Operation310

You can use a BIP39 passphrase. It can also be dangerous, it’s for everyone to decide for themselves.

avdgrinten

The seed phrase is hashed to obtain the private key (once initially, and then multiple times depending on the network / "derivation path", see BIP-32 and BIP-44). There is no way to reverse the process.

johnson5067

Of course backing up your wallet is an essential security measure. Your first comment seemed to imply that an "actual" private key was somehow more secure than a BIP39 mnemonic phrase. That's what I don't understand. My point is that a mnemonic is exactly the same as a master private key, it's just encoded in a way that makes it easier for humans to deal with. The mnemonic doesn't add or take away anything from the security already inherent in a private key. I also don't understand how an "actual" private key is better for address generation. A BIP39 seed works just fine, although a master public key is all you need for generating addresses.

johnson5067

What does BIP39 have to do with security? Its simply a way to encode the seed of a hierarchical deterministic wallet (BIP32) into common words, which makes storage and transcription less error prone as opposed to dealing with hexadecimal or base58 strings. A BIP39 mnemonic phrase is effectively a master private key.

couchguitar

Hierarchical Deterministic wallets scheme defines a method for deriving a practically unlimited number of public and private keys from a single extended key. Its a bit confusing at first but look into BIP 32, BIP 44, BIP 49 and BIP 84. This should explain the different account showing up, its one of many addresses that can be generated by your wallet to increase security, although the old one should still be usable if you prefer.

mnijs

BIP39 is a good security measure for an active wallet that keeps generating addresses regularly. For long term storage nothing beats a paper wallet with an actual private key on it.

castorfromtheva

I don't think Bluewallet is a scam. It's completely open source, self-custody and has enormous functionality like easily connecting your own fullnode, your own lighting node, supports coincontrol, RBF, CPFP and is completely BIP39 compatible. I don't know which issue you have/had but I bet they're certainly on your side. Or we're talking about whole different application.

na3than

I salute you for digging into the standards rather than blindly trusting the general sentiment that any hardware wallet is better than none. As you've discovered, BIP-39 is not new (created in 2013) but is still in "Proposed" status. The official Bitcoin Core client doesn't use mnemonics and probably never will. Nonetheless, BIP-39 seed phrases have become ubiquitous amongst most software wallet authors and hardware wallet manufacturers, with 12-word (128 bit) and 24-word (256 bit) de facto standards. As for "long term support", not to worry. Even if, ten years from now, no one uses seed phrases to initialize or recover wallets, the unique 128- or 256-bit number that a BIP-39 phrase represents will still be a valid seed. It's trivial to convert a BIP-39 seed phrase into a numeric seed; all you need to do is look up each word in the 2048-word BIP-39 word list, note the index number of the word, convert the index numbers to 11 binary digits and assemble them in order to recover the 128- or 256-bit seed. It's simple enough that you can do it by hand, and even if BIP-38 goes out of favor I guarantee you'll be able to find the word list in numerous historical archives.

jmicsmith

We really need to stop using the word 'standard' BIP39, which most hardware wallets are basing their mnemonic deterministic keys on, has a status of "Proposed". https://github.com/bitcoin/bips Some other statuses are Rejected, Replaced, Withdrawn, Deferred, or Obsolete. Until the status of the BIP that a mnemonic key is based on is "Final", how confident can we really be that this will be supported long-term? If its going to be supported long-term, why isn't it marked "Final"?? /r/Bitcoin/comments/ywrqf6/comment/iwl572f/ > BIP39 is a really bad "standard" (is not even properly a standard, though it does intend to be that). For some weird reason, it got mass adopted nevertheless. The BIP reviewers made it abundantly clear to "Unanimously Discourage for implementation". https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/wiki/Comments:BIP-0039

jmicsmith

I take issue with the word 'standardized'. BIP39, which most hardware wallets are basing their mnemonic deterministic keys on, has a status of "Proposed". https://github.com/bitcoin/bips Some other statuses are Rejected, Replaced, Withdrawn, Deferred, or Obsolete. Until the status of the BIP that a mnemonic key is based on is "Final", how confident can we really be that this will be supported long-term? If its going to be supported long-term, why isn't it marked "Final"??

brandonholm

Muun doesn’t support BIP39 recovery phrases, they do their own thing. Most good wallets will support BIP39 recovery phrases.

Rannasha

> It is not in the BIP39 standard. Yeah it is. It's right [here](https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039.mediawiki#From_mnemonic_to_seed) The only potential issue is that the standard uses the UTF8 character space for passphrases, which is far larger than what pretty much any wallet offers in its UI. So each wallet sets its own limits on what type of characters you can enter and how many. Especially hardware wallets with basic, fidgety buttons are not setup for entering all kinds of unusual symbols. But if you stick to simple phrases made of just letters without punctuation, it should be no problem.

Rannasha

Passphrases are part of the BIP39 standard, so in general they should be portable to different wallets.

Rannasha

The passphrase is part of the BIP39 standard, so any device that fully implements this standard will be able to use passphrases previously used on devices. That said, the BIP39 specifies that the passphrase is a UTF8 string and the UTF8 character set is far larger than what most wallets will let you input. So it's possible that one wallet will let you use lower- and uppercase letters, numbers and some symbols, while another wallet restricts you to lowercase letters only, for example. In this case, a passphrase that you can use on the first, won't be usable on the second, simply because the user interface isn't adapted to accept it, not because the underlying cryptography is different. Maximum length is also something to take into account here.

jfhsdkjfhsdkjfhsdkjf

It is not in the BIP39 standard. So you would have to find another wallet that supports the 25th word passphrase. For this reason, I personally choose not to use it because I feel as though it overcomplicates the recovery process.

young-shark

Even if it doesn't support BIP39? That and many -ve reviews on app store is not giving me enough confidence to use it.

ElGuano

If Ledger goes under, their servers go as well. So you may no longer be able to connect your Ledger Live software to a server, and you won't be able to see your balance, sign transactions, or manage/install apps onto your Ledger hardware. But the device doesn't need Ledger Live to operate, and you don't need your Ledger to keep your funds safe. The BIP-39 24-word seed phrase is what you need to keep it safe, and you can always find a different software that will either interact with your ledger to let you sign/broadcast transactions, or import your phrase (danger!) if you want to switch platforms. If you want to switch hardware wallets, you just use your 24-word phrase to "recover an existing key" to that new hardware wallet.

pwuille

Forget elliptic curves for a minute. Let's say the function for going from private key to public key is *P(x)*, so given a private key (a number) *d*, the corresponding public key is *P(d)*. The details of this function don't matter. But it has a few properties that matter: * *P(a) + P(b) = P(a+b)*. Note that the *+* between public keys isn't really the same as adding numbers, but there is a kind of similar, more complicated operation you could think of as "adding" public keys. And "adding" public keys together is equivalent to just adding the corresponding private keys together. * *nP(a) = P(n a)*. So you can "multiply" a number with a public key, and the result is the equivalent of multiplying the corresponding private key with that number as well. So, you have private key *d*, and public key *Q = P(d)*. If you wanted to sign a message *m*, you could do the following (which is roughly how BIP340 Schnorr signatures work): * Generate a random number *k* (independent from your private key, and just for this one signature). * Compute the public key corresponding to it: *R = P(k)*. * Compute *e*, the hash of *Q*, *R*, and *m*. * Compute *s = k + ed*. * The signature is *R* and *s*. Surprisingly, perhaps, you can verify someone did this correctly *without* knowing *k* or *d*: * The verifier has *R*, *s*, *Q*, and *m*, so they can also compute *e* (by redoing the hash step). * We know *s = k+ed*, so *P(s) = P(k + ed)*. * That also means *P(s) = P(k) + eP(d)*. * Knowing *Q = P(d)* and *R = P(k)*, that also means *P(s) = R + eQ = R + hash(Q,R,m)Q*. And that is an equation the verifier can just check. But if you try to make that equation work without having *d*, you'll notice that you just can't make it work. You can try to come up with a *k* and *R = P(k)*, but that *R* goes into the hash computation of *e*, making it sort of a circular reasoning that you just can't balance out. And that's perhaps the way to think about it: it's an impossibly circular equation, but if you know *d*, you can bypass it and make it work. I know this was probably not as intuitive as you hoped, but there are mathematical proofs that *if* it's hard to compute the private key for a given public key, it's also hard to create valid such signatures without access to the private key.

MrWhiteSnoopDogg

You’re fine as long as you keep the seed phrase. You can enter the seed phrase on any other device or software with the BIP39 standard (the 24 word you got when you created your wallet)

pantuso_eth

It's not proprietary. It's based on open standards: BIP 39 and BIP 44. If Ledger shuts down, you will still be able to use other wallets to recover your funds. Just make sure you have your word list, and don't plug those words into anything unless it is a trusted wallet. Even then, you should compare the published checksum online to the hash of your downloaded software. Here's an example of how to do it on Windows: * Download the wallet software from a trusted source (Trezor/Ledger/etc.) * Search for download checksums ([Ledger example](https://www.ledger.com/ledger-live/lld-signatures)) * Open PowerShell * Shift + right-click the downloaded file and copy the full path * In PowerShell type the following lines, pressing Enter to run each line `$filepath = (get-clipboard).replace("""", "")`

pwuille

Well your wallet stores the private key, otherwise it couldn't spend it (which needs the private key for generating signatures). Using that stored private key, the same public key can be computed. But that's really a simplification, and since 2012 or so, that's not actually how wallets work anymore. Instead, BIP32 derivation is used (disclaimer: I'm the author), which lets you take something called an "extended public key" to derive multiple "child public keys". Those child keys are used for addresses. If you have the "extended private key" corresponding to an extended public key, you can also compute the corresponding private child keys (which you'll need for spending received coins). This approach lets wallet compute basically any number of public keys (and addresses) from a single master, without actually needing access to private key material (which may be encrypted, or reside on a hardware wallet, or ...).

anonfiles311

Most wallets including Ledger use the standardized BIP39 mnemonic wordlist. As long as you have your wordlist backup you can recover your wallet on any other BIP39 wallet, hardware or software.

sciencetaco

Electrum can import a BIP39 seed, however it doesn’t generate them.

igadjeed

> or any other HW wallet Not always. Contrary to other comments, the BIP39 specification does not require a seed phrase to be portable between wallets See https://walletsrecovery.org/

sbred3305

Exodus is BIP 39?

sbred3305

Yeah trezor is BIP 39, so any wallet that also supports BIP 39 I can recover a trezor seed to that type of wallet right?

sbred3305

Yeah trezor is BIP 39, so any wallet that also supports BIP 39 I can recover a trezor seed to that type of wallet right?

Mr_P_Nissaurus

The Electrum desktop (hot) wallet does ***not*** use BIP39. Before purchasing a hardware wallet, it might be wise to find out (from the manufacturer) whether it uses BIP39 or not. Or, do an internet search, say, "ledger bip39".

krisycoll

You need wallets that use the same system to go from the seed phrase to the private key. I'm almost sure that both Trezor and Ledger use BIP39 to do so. And if not, you just need to know what system it use and convert your seed phrase from one system to the other one.

Chillers

Having your seed stamped into a fireproof plate using BIP39 numbers will help significantly. Chances are anyone who comes across it won't have a clue what the number signify.

jcoinner

They can restore the seed words in many various ways and the btc will be there. The thing you need is "BIP39 compatible", whether device or mobile app or offline software. BIP39 is a standard defining how the words are converted into a seed value (big number) used in the key generation math.

zeitgeist785

What really matters is writing down the 24 words (seed phrase), even if your trezor one day will be gone, you can recover the private key from ANY BIP39 compatible wallet

johnson5067

Why is there an X on BIP85 for Coldcard? It can switch to a BIP85 wallet.

Halo22B

You also get a recovery data package (encrypted) your pin unlocks the recovery package which restores your wallet. Go ahead and store the package in the cloud but keep your pin secure..... It's just a different methodology than BIP39

TheGreatMuffin

> Is it possible to have access to bitcoin that you got in 2009 or 2010 today? Sure, but this depends on the backup that you kept (or whatever else remained from the wallet on your computer/harddrive etc). > How did people buy bitcoin back in 2009 or 2010? Where did they store it? https://old.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/ywesce/was_was_the_process_for_holding_sending_bitcoin/iwjthsp/ > The first bitcoin software I used ran on microsoft windows, and in one of the menu drop-downs you could enable mining. I didn't mine because my CPU ran at 100% and that wasn't worth it at the time. Sending bitcoin was easy enough - just get the address from the person and send them the amount. OTC Trading was done on IRC, including a reputation system. Addresses were copy/pasted and sent via sms or email or whatever. > > As far as I know, all the important private key info was in a file called 'wallet.dat' and I backed it up by copying it somewhere onto another device. The software allowed password protection of that file. At least one friend of mine formatted their drive, and we rescued their wallet.dat from a time they emailed it to themselves. > > There was no deterministic key/wallet management. This meant a lot of people lost coins through sending them using paper wallets, because they didn't realize that each transaction sent the change amount to somewhere new that their paper wallet didn't have access to. I read about this mistake and avoided it purely by luck before that. > > The first mobile wallet had some security options if I recall it right. I used to buy things here and there with it (when it was instant and practically zero transaction fees) and it worked super well. > > When more wallets started being created, on Android and OSX, it became easier to manage with QR codes and eventually HD (hierarchical deterministic) wallets. In late 2014 or early 2015 I bumped into the guy that made ledger wallet. He was in SF at a bitcoin meetup and that seemed like a great next step. > > And there was no seed phrase to generate your wallet, it was just a file! That BIP came much later and made everything much better.

Mr_P_Nissaurus

Yes. BIP39 is the way! Not every wallet follows the BIP39 standard. Make sure yours does. Maybe put it in an envelope with "BIP39" written on the envelope in pencil (ink might fade).

BitcoinFan7

Yes any wallet that uses BIP 39 (which is nearly every wallet these days) can be restored with the seed.

Think_Operation310

If it’s BIP39 then any software that uses BIP39. (Or hardware but there can be a risk for the purpose).

Maxx3141

The seed words are coming from the [BIP-39 word list](https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/english.txt). There are 2048 words, so you have 3\*10\^80 possibilities, which is about 264 bits. Since the last word is a checksum word, a little entropy is lost, the final result is actually exactly 256 bits of pure entropy (fully random). So it's not "relatively easy" to try different combinations, the "seed space" is exactly as large as the key space, so it gives no advantage over guessing private keys directly.

pwuille

That's true specifically for RSA, an algorithm which can be used for both encryption/decryption and for signing/verifying, in such a way that "signing" is really "encrypting with the private key". But this the exception, rather than the rule. Almost all encryption algorithms or signing algorithms are exclusive to one use case. ECDSA (and since recently, BIP340 Schnorr) are only digital signature algorithms, and cannot be used for anything resembling encryption. At no point during verification is a value recovered that the signer knew, but only people with access to the public key can find. It's just an equation that's checked to hold.

igadjeed

Sometimes the seed phrase for one wallet will work in a different wallet app. The specifications for BIP39 (seed phrase) and BIP32 (hierarchical deterministic wallet) do not require portability between wallet apps See https://walletsrecovery.org/

20seh

Thanks for commenting, my previous comment got deleted because I don't have enough of .. something. We're also probably in different timezones ;) I understand it's not about the entropy, but I was just talking about the result: you are left with another "word" you need to save because without it you can't open your wallet. And this word/phrase/string should probably also be put on a steel plate. But anyway, it's still an improvement, I agree. While we're on the topic: can I also open the wallet that's "behind" the seedphrase using other software (a hot wallet for example) in case of emergency (let's say my Trezor breaks and I need to move funds asap)? It should work if the wallet uses the BIP standard I guess?

Maxx3141

Sorry for replying so late - you always comment when I was either at work or asleep, and had so much activity that you were pushed down to far on my notifications later. This is not about the entropy of the seed. The passphrase does not increase this as your final private keys are still just 256 bits. This is about storing your seed in a way that a (physical) thief can not steal it. And this entropy is needed to stay secure on blockchain forever. Even though it's called the 25th word, that's not what it is and it's a bad analogy. If you would remove a single word from your seed, an attacker could brute force it within a second as there are only 2048 possible words in the BIP39 standard. Your passphrase however can have enough entropy to be secure by itself, but easy enough to remember it for daily use (like [CorrectHorseBatteryStaple](https://xkcd.com/936/)). Don't tell me you can't think of a way to hide 4 words in a way they won't be recognised as a password. The passphrase is pretty worthless alone, so it can be stored without worrying as much as for the security of your seed. No matter how well you secure your home, there is no way to guarantee no one can break into it. Most burglars don't open your safe for example, they just take it with them. They will recognise a crypto seed this days, but they will notice way to late they are missing the passphrase. A passphrase is about the most default way to "encrypt your seed" and make sure you will know 20 years later how to decrypt it again. People are doing all kind of dump stuff with their seed to get the same security, and I am not so sure they will later remember what they did, even if they still have the "cipher".

BagsMcBaggins

The numbers are just the order of the words. 12 or 24 depending on how many billions of years you want a hacker to need in order to brute force your keys. Google BIP39 for the techie bits.

jfhsdkjfhsdkjfhsdkjf

Restore you wallet into another wallet app. I know any BIP39 12 word seed app will work. Green Wallet is one you could try.