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My dad has a 3 bedroom 3 bathroom condo in Fort Myers Florida over at Harbor Place Association. (1852 sqft) He wants to trade for $545k worth of bitcoin. $816/monthly HOA. Florida has no state income tax. Great place to claim permanent residence if you’re sick of paying taxes in California or New York.
I'd buy. My home would be my token to vote on things in my community. Especially if I got an NFT that gives me access to things like community meetings, local political office and other community affairs. It would be much more obvious what the local rules and such are. Which would direct me to purchase in the neighborhoods with laws I agree with (I'm libertarian so that basically means minimalist laws). I agree, when I say HOA, I am mostly referring to what a Home Owners Association is in the hypothetical future I think will come. Where homeownership and residency contracts give you a democratic seat in your local community.
HOAs are homeowners associations. They can force you to abide by their rules because it's a mini representative democracy. 100 units in the build, the owners of a needed quorum of the 100 units vote in a board of 10 and those 10 make the decisions for the building including making the rules. I don't think there would be a HOA if a company owns all 100 units, they might call themselves and HOA but they are technically just the owners and placing rules by leases. Everything you're saying makes sense if instead of saying HOA you say 'owners' I would sell, but I wouldn't buy. We would need to figure out how to make people comfortable buying. Would you buy?
Many HOAs own the property and are the property managers. That's how they can force you to abide their rules. That's not every neighborhood, and definitely mine lol. But it is reality that modern neighborhoods are not selling you a home, but the rights to the deed, which are different. This is very common with condos but happens in upscale urban neighborhoods as well. So what I'm saying is that they (HOA membership) will become superfluous with home ownership. I think the key to what you said as it relates to my assumption is that title companies are centralized. But the goal is to decentralize and give the ownership to the homeowner in the form of a coin to represent their investment/share. That coin will likely have an NFT that's used for proof of stake in community affairs managed by the HOA.
I think you are confused about what an HOA is and I don't know what you mean by "HOA should be the entity that profits from property sale" There is reason for title agencies and real estate brokers and simply put is that you are putting trust in known centralized organizations to ensure you are paying for the real rights and no one is pulling a fast one on anyone. Replacing that with a trustless crypto version sounds nice and will eventually be a reality however imagine the scams for a second. Imagine the potential for issues. When you get your crypto wallet scammed you might be out $100, $200, maybe you're ones that have a lot of money but the minimum is small. Dealings with real estate the minimum is a lifetime of work for most people, most average people would want something traditional and easy to be worry free with. Lower stakes such as renting automatically building equity via smart contracts towards potential purchases but what happens when some unscrupulous property slim lord comes in and does this and then after decades of building equity the slum lord doesn't give the equity and leaves overseas or had an LLC protecting them or something
I think HOAs will become more prevalent in communities because people will want their communities to represent their ethics and values. And I think tokenization will increase community interaction from homeowners. Tokens like NFTs can be used as community shareholder representation. I think instead of rent culture we will have residency coins that work as rent-to-own contracts from HOAs. Allowing rent equity to be transferred. The HOA should be the entity that profits from property sale. And coins price (home price) can be mediated by investor confidence (homeowner and stakeholder) instead of the Fed. So if a neighborhood is nicer and the HOA isn't corrupt, the coin price increases. More residency contracts (rent- to-own) means coin price increases. Etc.. There is no reason for Title Agencies and real estate brokers gatekeeping homeownership. But this pa es the way for social credit systems if not implemented carefully.
HOAs? What are you talking about... HOA boards are made up of homeowners and sometimes they hire out property management companies
Bought from a family friend that sold for the cost of construction so definitely got a good deal and it has almost doubled what we bought it for so pretty close to $400k 2.9% interest 5% down My mortgage is actually only $800 it’s the taxes insurance and HOA that make it the $2000
Mine includes taxes, insurance and HOA. I got a 2.9% interest rate during COVID for a 30 year mortgage. Renting to me just doesn’t make sense unless testing an area out or moving in with some one before purchasing.
Yeah I mean maybe you're right. At this point I could easily put down 150K but I am in a HCOL major city. Condo for 600K with a $350/month HOA fee is about my limit, and the HOA covers taxes. In the suburbs the taxes are like 16K/year and would cripple me. I think I need a financial advisor for the home stuff, It seems so mind bogglingly complicated and I consider myself smart.
We just made a horrible, stupid decision to sell a condo (where we had a penthouse, no shared walls), everything was done for us, no maintenance, etc. The HOA fee was high, but all in all it was only 25% of our income. We moved to a place that is 2 stories, doesn't work for my disability (I've gotten worse since we signed the contract), and is much more expensive (we aren't saving anything), and had a huge down payment. When we sold the condo we made nothing on it and actually lost money (we sold it for 30k less than we bought it for and put 40k into it). Also, the condo location was much closer to my drs (average 2 drs per week, 20 minutes drive to the dr, now it's 40). We did this all so we could be closer to my family and so that my wife has a larger support system (we can't have any kids because of my disability). I am stashing aside $20k/yr in bitcoin, but we arent saving anything. Luckily we have a pretty big cash cushion. But my wife wont be retiring annnnnytime soon because of this dumb move.
Property has a lot of 3rd party risk. You have tenants, property taxes, insurance, sometimes HOA, maintenance, geopolitical issues. It’s much safer just to hold
I pay around $1 per kWh (my HOA sucks) and am looking for solar solutions to augment my normal electricity usage. I even bought a light meter that tells me how much sun I receive and it is like a pitiful 75 W/m^2 in the late afternoon but from 9AM - noon I get around 900 if I point it directly at the sun. How much did that thing that tilts your panel cost?
A lot of it are the security details. The cops monitoring the road construction crews are all extra work. It is not "overtime" per-se (because it is voluntary), but is a fairly high rate. Those details are paid for by the contstruction company, HOA, or event that needs or wants the police presence.
That’s the like HOA coming to fine you bc you had a cook out without getting written permission first . The fuck
You need to add property taxes, home insurance and HOA fees to get the final number.
No leaking roofs No clogged toilets No creepy basements No squeaky floorboards No HOA fees No mystery smells No lawnmowers at 7am No mold inspections No nosy mailman No haunted attics No cable guys "between 9 and 5" No painting fences No raccoons in the trash No snow shoveling No surprise property taxes No barking dogs next door No ghost neighbors No curtain drama No open house cookies No Zillow stalking No escrow stress No squeaky gates No pothole complaints No cracked driveways No foundation settling No squealing water heaters No buyer’s remorse No ceiling fan decapitations No grass that judges you No evil garden gnomes No property line feuds with Steve No haunted doll in the attic No “just one more renovation” No squirrels in the chimney No dishwasher breakdowns mid-party No pretending to like throw pillows No 3am pipe symphonies No wallpaper regrets No “open concept” arguments No fridge cleaning existential crises No cursed crawlspaces No tile grout therapy No feng shui shame No invisible gas leaks No weird neighbors with binoculars No “just sign here and here and here” No stair squeak espionage No basement dungeon energy No ceiling leaks with personalities No cat pee carpet flashbacks No weird stains you inherit No buyers with crystals and vibes No haunted jacuzzi tubs No spiders the size of mittens No 47 light switches and none thwt works
These are *very* personal decisions that you have to make. It’s based on when you stop working, how long you expect to live, and what lifestyle you expect to maintain. Also, depending on where you live and the job you have, you might be getting benefits that, as a non-employed person you’ll have to assume. Primarily in the US, that’s health care - and it ain’t cheap. I can tell you 0.1 bit ain’t gonna get you there soon. But let’s assume that you have a plan for walking away from the grind. You want to have a home base and minimize your monthly expenses. Based on that, you decide it’s a good idea to, at least, have a condo that’s fully paid for (except HOA, of course) as a home base/fallback. Looking around my area, a decent 2br around 1500 sq. ft. starts around $600k for something I’d want to live in. That means: A) you gotta come up with the cheddar to buy outright, or have enough assets to be able to get a loan. B) if you get a loan, you’re gotta service that loan - that adds to your monthly nut. C) if you want to do anything beyond that, you best have assets to cover that. D) if you’re not working, you may have to assume responsibility for things like personal health care - that shit gets expensive in the US. E) as you get older, life will get more expensive. Not just from an inflationary standpoint, but as your body starts to betray you, it costs more - just the way it works. Based on all of that, let’s take me as an example: I’m older, in my 50s, looking to retire early. Yes, I want to buy a home outright to minimize my monthly expenses. Assuming I would spend $700k-1M on a house, that means I need a total bag of roughly $3-5M (in today’s fiat value) before I feel comfortable pulling the trigger. In today’s market, looking forward, say 5 years, I might be able to pull that off with 5-10 bit if we have some explosive valuation. But that’s me, and a shorter-term answer. If you’re looking longer-term, the answers are different. In 15-20yr, 0.1 may get it there. But you have some time. Keep stacking.
Im reporting OP to my HOA
Same after interest rate jump. 3% mortgage vs 6% can literally become unaffordable for the same house. Zillow is filled with listings. And a ton of them have price drops. I looked at numbers today. Buy 400k property rent it for 32.4k, pay 5k prop tax, 2k insurance, 2k HOA.. left with 23.4k. Is there nothing else that can generate 23.4k off 400k with less hassle and agony? Can get 14k just parking it in money market account. Insanely liquid. Listing a house might close in at best 60 days before you see your money. Get slightly more creative and can pull in even better return. Not even saying buy bitcoin. But that also could do great at times. RE is overrated unless you live in it yourself and get life enjoyment out of it.
Think about it this way. If you buy .1 Bitcoin at 100k price you invested 10,000 which could have been a 4% down payment on a 250,000 house. If Bitcoin 10x's to a million, your stack is worth 100,000, or a 40% down payment on that same house. That sounds good, but really you are just paying a mortgage on 150,000 loan instead of a 240,000 loan, and the taxes, insurance, HOA fees, utilities, and maintenance are all exactly the same amount, and those go up over time, so in about 10 years you will barely be able to feel the difference. 100k isn't life changing for most people in America.
real estate goes up 6% a year **if you're lucky**, not including property taxes, maintenance and HOA fees bitcoin is going up more than 40% a year *right now* the correct move is obvious... but people like you will sell because you think owning a house that goes up 6% a year is winning
It's not like you own the house. You're now renting from the government and not the bank, so that shelter still has property taxes, maintenance and in some cases HOA fees.
Michael Saylor's Miami penthouse HOA fee just went up.
Mortgage: If it's not an option to move back to your parents you become homeless and you lose the house, the principal, the money that went into property taxes and maintenance and/or HOA fees. or Renting: If it's not an option to move back to your parents you become homeless and that's it.
I’ve lived in my home for 19 years now, purchase new and my cost of ownership is pretty low even with HOA fees (210 months), taxes (4000yr) and insurance (1200yr)included about 8k per year. Most I’ve spent on repairs over the last 19 years was a new roof, and that was like 6k when i did it. Painted a few times now probably around 3k every few years, mostly brick home. I’ve had to repair my HVAC twice, but it was minor issues with control board, AC capacitor and pressure switch, all which i replaced myself for less than $200. No way you’re spending 15-60k a year on maintenance, insurance and repairs.
I think this is in general a good idea presuming you actually invest the funds you're saving from not holding a home asset or paying into a mortgage. Which obviously it sounds like you are with Bitcoin, I would always recommend diversifying and also investing in other assets as well. For those people who are not investing their money and letting it sit in their bank account losing to inflation, a house absolutely makes sense. For anyone who invests the majority of their money will absolutely get better returns on basic mutual funds than they would on a house. It's all about roi in my opinion and things like property taxes, upkeep costs, HOA fees, mortgage interest rates etc all impact your roi negatively. If you look at the average roi on a house that you fully own that's at about 11%. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to do the math and realize there are a plethora of other investment options that are much safer than Bitcoin that have better roi's. So regardless of whether you invest in Bitcoin, stocks, mutual funds, etc I would say a house is not as good of an investment as people like to believe relative to other options. It's simply another option, a generally safe option, but not necessarily the best option unless you absolutely need it.
Reddit is over-strict HOA of the internet.
He still thinks he won his HOA presidency race.
OP: I bought a condo for about $300k in 2013 that is now worth $600k. I put $45k down. My ROI is $300k/45k=660% This is an INCREDIBLY naive ROI calculation, unless you’re claiming you broke exactly even on rent vs. maintenance, HOA fees, taxes, management, your own time, and everything else involved in owning property. In a best case scenario you certainly COULD have made this ROI, but it is UNBELIEVABLY unlikely given the numbers you provided. Caveat emptor little buddies.
I have sold all four condos, never going back. Bitcoin has no HOA.
Imagine living in a country where you can't withdraw your money without a good reason, you can't say the N word or talk about your believes about the holocaust, you can't even decorate your own house if the HOA doesn't like your taste... ahh so much freedom
If I could afford the HOA at a nudist colony, I would.
HOA's are opt in. You can review the terms first. I was born into the US & didn't agree to or sign anything. I addressed this in another comment but I don't believe the argument "you can always leave" is valid. Why should I have to leave & not them? Between myself & government, only one of us advocates for violence & theft so I believe my right to be & exist here is morally superior & legitimate than theirs.
It's not theft any more than HOA fees are theft. Feel free to move to a country without income tax. They're incredibly unstable but that's what you want, right? If we don't like the policies where we live we should move, right?
Umm So there’s taxes, preventative maintenance, maintenance, DIY projects, hiring professional contractors, snow removal, yard maintenance, HOA costs, utilities, maintenance materials, modernizing, home insurance, title insurance, weather, illiquidity, lawyers, title companies, bank loans, bank interest, real estate agents, home inspectors, market drops, market bailouts, immanent domain, seizure, wars, law changes, etc, etc.. So who’s the sucker? Do you really own the property? Or are you renting it from the government as they tax you annually? You think appreciation is guaranteed? Do you really think homeownership provides a huge ROI?
I know I will never be homeless because I own land outright that I can pull a camper on and stay. It cost me $800 and my taxes and HOA fees are about $60 a year. If I want electricity I can get it for $30 a month. I pay rent in a condo because I am not in any dire straits now, but it is good to have a worst case backup plan. Never going to sell my stack.
Wellll there is a bit of a benefit. My neighbor can't have a loud donkey. Or a quiet one. And I don't even have to argue with him about that. The HOA prohibits it. And they can't have stinky chickens laying eggs poopin' everywhere either.
Bet you're glad you're not dealing with something called an "HOA."
I entered the scene in late 2010 and let me tell you.. This was peak grassroots bitcoin time! Police raiding home mining operations because they swore it was a "Grow operation" and a bunch of jock cops confused AF reported it in as "Some kind of.... small business?" Youtube videos of people in none HOA neighborhoods that were calling in noice complaints because dude converted his shack garage into a mining operation. Yes, Bitcoin has made me millions and it's about to make me 10's of millions if not 100's with this new rocket launch to the moon (we'll get there this time boys before running out of gas before returning to the nearest save point). I know it sounds like "Rich person" speak, but to me those days were peak bitcoin days not the 1 million moon.
Property taxes and insurance will rise (and HOA dues if you have them). If you rent, landlords will pass those costs on to you as well. We pay about $600 per month in total costs for a very nice paid-off 2100 sq foot house in a great neighborhood. It would be $3,000 per month if we were renting it.
I bought 18 years ago, a condo. Don’t regret it at all. Yes it’s stressful to have a big responsibility but same time the mortgage and HOA fees still less than my rent was prior. I also have a 350k increase in home value (bought at 500 - now worth 850k) … absolutely best investment I made.
Mortgage plus property tax, maintenance, HOA if applicable, closing costs, down payment and house equity opportunity costs (could be in an asset like corn). Home ownership can be the right choice for some, but there is a valid argument for renting as well. Very situation dependent.
I have like 20 ex-coworkers who did. I try not to disclose my holdings but I had some issues because a neighbor complained about the noise from my mining gear around 2018 and one of my coworkers is also in the same HOA Anyway he talked in the office about my mining and then all of my coworkers felt the need to have an opinion about it and started giving me unsolicited advice. Fast forward to the mort recent ATH and I’m at at party with most of them and they all are asking questions about how much money I made. And now everybody has the opposite opinion. Not that I care or asked for the opinion before or after.
Property tax and HOA fees apply the same way whether you buy a house leveraging a mortgage or not. Plus, if the government or the HOA seizes the house for non-payment then in a mortgaged scenario they seize the bank's money/asset primarily, in the unmortgaged, everything they seize was yours. Which is the higher risk to the homeowner?
I am "that guy" on my HOA. There purely for self defense and for calling out Karens. I have voted against every bullshit fine for five years. When Bitcoin was at 15k, I suggested this with the expected response. I am selling my last two units and buying more Bitcoin. Fuck'em.
Spend a lot of time looking into hoa Financials, do ya? LOL, almost all HOA's have a strategic reserve.
No, lol. Almost all HOA's have strategic reserves, and they should. It's a financial cushion that protects the community. When unexpected expenses come up it is much more efficient & convenient to have the funds readily available to cover the expense from the reserves. They can then address the issue of replenishing the reserves later. Often it would be put to a vote in the community to charge a one time assessment that would serve to replenish the reserves quickly, or to allow normal dues to slowly replenish the reserves over time. Possibly even a combination of the two. The natural reaction of most homeowners would be to forego the assessment & replenish slowly, but that can have risks. If another large unexpected expense comes up before reserves can be replenished, it can cause a financial predicament for the community.
hahaha..! I lived in a condo about 10 years ago and sat in the HOA meeting... there was a weird guy with weird ideas, his name was Franck! He was a total nutjob and didn't want to pay his HOA because of his 'service' to the board. He also voted against everything... including all the budgets.
This was my first thought too. Can you imagine everyone paying their HOA fees, then the Bitcoin bear market hits and the fund loses 50% of it's value and the community needs a new swimming pool? There would be a riot from the members.
Pretty much this. HOAs have enough internal bickering about inane stuff, without adding investments. Let alone highly volatile/sceptical ones. Leave the Bitcoin activity to each individual member, don’t involve the HOA.
If a HOA has extra funds they should lower the assessment
Absolutely not. The purpose of the HOA's treasury is not to build wealth, it's to pay for expenses. You want to put money in and take money out within the next twelve months with minimal loss of value between the time it's deposited and when it's spent. Bitcoin is WAY too volatile for that.
Bwa. Using a custodial that is used by Blackrock is not really the risk. It is getting incompetent people leading an Organisation that is the risk. Plenty of HOA are rugpulled with classic bank accounts and USDs.
Start with 20% of budget to ease them into it. Use multisig wallet with the HOA attorney as a signer. Do not use a KYC exchange or you put everyone at risk. After this is shown to be successful publish an ebook on Amazon and rake in the cash. Convert cash to bitcoin. You're welcome.
This would absolutely never fly. Way too easy for your HOA president to go on vacation and never come back.
Now that's something you don't see every day. Your HOA has unembezzled funds left over?
Become secretary. Implement it. Coinbase account in name of the HOA.
there are plusses and minuses, shit quality in new construction as you note. Old buildings often have many kinks worked out... if a new place has problems they haven't been discovered yet. You can have warranty but good luck fighting for what you're owed and the quality of the work you get out of it. I've known more than one home owner where the warranty just kept sending morons until they eventually paid for someone competent out of pocket in order to get the problem solved. HVAC stuff just has a fixed life, buying an old place just assume you'll replace it out of the gate. The cost to do so is a rounding error in the purchase price and shouldn't drive your decisions. Perhaps it turns out good and will last enough decade, great. Unless something gravely incompetent was done (like improper drainage), once structural stuff has settled it'll be fine for the duration. Why bother? Old places take up many of the best locations. New places often force you into an HOA which if you like what HOAs do is a slight positive to a dramatic negative depending on who controls it at any given time, and if you don't like what HOAs do is fairly negative at best. New places will make different layout/style/etc choices based on modern trends and codes... some good, some bad, some depends on taste. Like new places ending up having huge pointless and largely unusable front yards due to some municipal ordnance that didn't exist before the 90s ... and yet still somehow being built right on top of the neighbors because the developer hyperoptimized to get every dollar out of the land they bought. On the subjective stuff I usually like the design choices in older homes better, but there is no accounting for taste. As far as the value change I dunno, go compare a prior purchaser vs investing the same value in the S&P500 ... even in super hot markets you usually find the house did worse. Of course, thanks to government 'help' it's a lot easier to get a huge loan for a house than it is to invest in the S&P500. (Help in scarequotes because the distortion of the lending market is part of the driver of home prices). The real windfall the earlier buyers got is the government secured loans, not the change in price, I think. Maybe that makes it sting a bit different. :)
I put her face on a pumpkin and the HOA made me take it down for being obscene
Imagine an HOA in a large condo building. They evicted their richest tenant, but the cost of running the building doesn’t change at all. So the remaining tenants have to pick up the cost of the rich tenant. Just because the bitcoin miner is gone doesn’t mean that the electricity infrastructure gets magically cheaper. The electrical grid costs the same with or without the miner there.
painting your mail box the wrong color creates systemic risk ask any HOA president
You need to sell some more for property taxes, HOA, and insurance. And some more to cover gains taxes on all that sold BTC too.
Oh ok. Your answers were confusing. When I said "what?" you replied "home owner association in the UK", which obviously I understood as meaning that the HOA was *in* the UK. Are you saying that it's in Australia? I think I got it now. But I don't own a home currently, so ..
Our HOA was the worst. They included a rider one month for lighting in the parking garages. When the bill ran over their budget, they just stopped the work. No light in the last two parking garages. No roof on the last two buildings as well. Also they had “disaster insurance” in the sum of 35K per unit. Katrina showed them and wiped it flat. How’s that $35K policy helping you look for a new condo. It’s barely a down payment on the next cheapest condo.
Good god how big is your neighborhood?!? Our HOA can barely pay the bills.
Yeah lol I could see that. In that case it would be such a bizarre and over-reaching HOA rule that would basically be impossible to enforce haha
I'm assuming the HOA as an entity has written rules only allowing purchases of bonds with its excess cash. Basically I'm assuming people pay into the HOA fund and the fund can't park the excess money in anything except bonds. The individuals living inside the HOA can purchase whatever they want. Just my interpretation and I might be wrong.
To be fair, we are kind of paying ourselves too. My HOA holds 12 million in bonds (we’re not allowed to invest in stocks) also so I very pension and 401k holds a large chunk of bonds
Let's take advice from someone with a track record of making poor decisions. Sure. > the kind you could pay, if needed, if working a minimum wage job lmao, what do you think this is, the 80s? And no mention of avoiding a house that's part of an HOA? That's far more important that getting solar panels.
Your money is scared so you’ll just buy high and sell low and blow out. You want to get rich quick, because you’re desperate, given the shitty system we’re in. So the solution is to become less dependent on money. For starters, you can shitcan college. Unless you’re better than most at something (and trust me, people will pay for your college tuition if you are) college is for suckers. It’s a massive scam and money drain. Next, avoid starting families unless your spouse is on board figuring out how to live skillfully “in poverty.” Don’t succumb to buying a house in the suburbs to become a lifetime slave to debt, time to a shitty boss, and rent seeking authorities (property taxes, utilities, HOA’s). The whole thing is bullshit.
Sounds like you would like the benefits of a townhouse. Large house living with less outdoor maintenance, and typically somewhat less home maintenance. This is dependent on the HOA you’re in, but we are in one where our house and property is our responsibility, but it’s certainly less property than most single family homes that have the same square footage of our house.
Considering I sat as president on my condo HOA for six years before buying my current home I couldn’t agree more. But ours was good I like to think. Just focused on maintaining a clean property and upkeep
why buy somewhere with a HOA. they are the worst damn thing.
That’s a fair point also. Thinking of downsizing for sure which could allow me to do both if I’m smart. As far as investing and buying. We were thinking of renting mainly because we get tired of the upkeep after a while. But there’s always condos on the beach. Still got pay the HOA but maybe less commitment on the weekends. Thanks.
I disagree. I'll make more gains investing in BTC when you factor in interest, insurance, property taxes, HOA, maintenance, etc.
Well, we’re one step better than HOA leaders. It’s a weird space full of FIRE, optimistic socialists, libertarians, cynical capitalist, fin bros, cyber punks, VCs, normal people moving up the “risk on” ladder but scared of leverage.
Was going to spend my bonus on crypto but I have to pay 7k for hail damage from last year to my HOA. Literally everyone wants to drain your money
I wouldn’t exactly say $1100 more just for the residence alone is “close to the same.” Especially after taking into account the slight increase in every other bill, as well as property taxes and potential HOA fees too. Lol. But that’s almost identical to my current financial costs compared to what they will be with a mortgage instead. The equity is possibly the biggest reasons it’s more than worth it to me. But the cost nowadays is outrageous, it’s basically impossible to get a nice home in a quality neighborhood for under $400k-$500k where I live.
This idea that investing rather than owning your primary home is absolutely absurd unless you have the knowledge and skillset to earn a competitive enough salary that beats the economy’s cost of living in your city/town..and even then it will still be better to own…unless there’s just terrible purchase options/unreasonable HOA fees/taxes that you don’t feel are financially optimal for your life plan…owning a reasonable property with low overhead that’s well below your means always trumps renting. Now if you have enough money in your pocket that can go stratight to a business of some sort and you know or feel that you will make a significant amount of cash flow come in by investing in the business rather than subsidizing your own housing by owning…then go ahead. Dont buy a home. Invest in crypto etc
Context and nuance to your situation are probably 70% of the equation. (Ie kids, location). If you need a place to live you need a place to live. Rent v buy has tradeoffs as well (apartment v house) for maintenance and HOA. I'd argue Bitcoin and real estate are scarce hedges against each other. On paper, you should only buy Bitcoin and sleep in a tent in the woods for free:)
I agree that home ownership requires some financial stability to be prepared for potential unpredictability. Everything else, though.. most rentals are cash-positive for the property owners. Meaning rent covers all of what you described (property taxes, insurance, mortgage, HOA fees if applicable). Sure, repairs could set back that cashflow, but point still stands. I suppose you don't know me, but I rented and now own a home. I don't share your friends' complaints re: it being a huge pain. In fact, quite the opposite, I can't think of anyone I know who feels that regret. Sure the occasional "dammit need to do XYZ", but I'd still say I hear more complaints re: "my landlord sucks", "my neighbor sucks", "they still haven't repaired xyz", "my rent is increasing", "I can't renew and need to move again". I'm surely not saying that home ownership is for everyone, but in many cases it's a source of stability, wealth, and satisfaction. I'll also add that one thing I'd agree on is that today's interest rates make it a much harder decision than when you could grab a mortgage at sub-3%.
You never really own your home the US. Property taxes, insurance, if you hold a mortgage, HOA fees. That's all before maintenance and keeping the property in good shape. Roofs, electric, plumbing - especially in the colder states during the winter..
Like HOA’s ? Yeah those are a joke
Mortgage is the minimum you pay each month (plus repairs, taxes, HOA, etc). Rent is the maximum you will pay each month. Way less surprise or unexpected costs renting
"Can we own the property we're living in?" Not without counter party risk. When someone else has the power to take it from you at gunpoint, whether it be an invading army or your own government from you not paying taxes, it doesn't really feel like real "ownership" to me. I own a home, and I'm fully aware that Uncle Sam is my landlord. (shit, sometimes it even feels like the fkn HOA "owns" my place)
Yeah I'm sorry, but I don't believe that's a realistic scenario, either. Not calling you a liar. Maybe lucky, maybe a different market, but that's not happening here, either. Even a $160K property in my area that was freshly renovated and has no HOA is not renting for $1500. Zero chance.
It's very expensive to be a home owner besides the initial outlay of capital to buy the property. And housing market is rough right now since interest rates were jacked up. Homes are selling for 20%+ less than during the depop event. So someone selling is down 20% plus all the insurance, property taxes, HOA fees they paid over 2 years. "Wealth extraction" my ass.
Homeless can't afford them whether someone lives in them or not. And owning an empty million dollar house is not cheap. No homestead deduction so about $4000+ in property tax, $2000+ insurance, $1000+ for HOA dues. A few utility bills and it adds up fast.
Show me your math. It's actually quite a bit less in many high HCOL areas, but to be fair, one significant factor for me is that I live in Texas where property taxes are quite high. Here is a rough example I've seen, and these numbers are on the generous side $350,000 property $2,000 rent \* 12 = $24K cash in $5,000 annual property taxes $1,920 property management fees (8% rent) $2,000 average annual maintenance costs $400 insurance premium $3,000 HOA dues \---- $11,680 net positive cash flow 11,680/350000 = \~3.3% Yes, there is a lot of variability here, but this is an average/decent year for most renters. The "much less than 3%" thing mostly applies when you fall pray to one of the many non-negligible risks landlords face. Such as a deadbeat tenant, or expensive repairs like the ones I described above.
Landlording is great until you have to evict your tenant. 8 months of not collecting rent plus the place was left trashed all the while I was paying property taxes and HOA fees. I sold it. Paid off my mortgage in the house I live in and bought BTC. Living debt free just waiting for my BTC to be worth enough that I can quit my soul sucking job as well. I didn't even mention all the maintenance and repair costs over the years. Rental property never again. Investing in stocks can be good but can be risky as well. I really believe BTC is the highest return/lowest risk investment option there is right now. Its volatility is a stress inducing rollercoaster at times but I do think it will be less volatile and worth much more in time.
This is an annoying response. You can't just get a USDA loan on a house an hour outside of a major city. In many states an hour outside of the city is a suburb with even worse home pricing and HOA communities. When was the last time you actually looked at property outside any major US city to see what is available for a USDA loan? The amount of houses or property that qualify are extremely limited and far away from any towns that would allow for someone to make a living.
Hmmm, maybe you could buy the company, as in the Property management group that enforces your HOA
Own all the properties in an HOA and you basically own all the votes.
Haha I know (has an HOA) but one can dream! Lol
>your HOA has entered the chat< “I don’t fucking think so buddy”
I find that when most aspiring bitcoin miners say they have a “free” power source, it doesn’t actually turn out to be free for them once they start using it. For example, I knew someone who lived in an HOA condo community with external storage closets in the basement level. The storage closets had power outlets that did not count towards the unit owner’s electricity. The HOA covered the electricity cost of the storage units. So this someone plugged a miner and the HOA found out fairly quickly and had it shut down. There’s no such thing as “free” electricity.
Not everybody lives in a country where HOA have more power than the government. In fact, most people don’t.
Yes and no. If you have an HOA and don’t pay their fee they can pretty much take your home and kick your ass out. Also annual property taxes. For the vast majority of people, these are way cheap compared to a mortgage but I wouldn’t say you have total financial freedom.