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GBTC (Grayscale) vs OBTC (Osprey) - Investment Comparison including NAV (Net Asset Value) Premium/Discount
Osprey (OBTC) vs Grayscale (GBTC) (buying and selling bitcoin on stock exchanges)
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Another idea, buy Osprey Bitcoin Trust (OBTC) within your 401k. Right now OTBC is selling at around a 8% discount to NAV. Osprey has announced that they plan to merge with a bitcoin ETF. If that doesn't work, the trust will be liquidated within 180 day (September 2024 by my math). When that happens, the discount to NAV will close. Essentially you can buy BTC at a discount. Good luck. [https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240305394342/en/Osprey-Bitcoin-Trust-Announces-Exploration-of-Strategic-Alternatives-and-Voluntary-Deregistration](https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20240305394342/en/Osprey-Bitcoin-Trust-Announces-Exploration-of-Strategic-Alternatives-and-Voluntary-Deregistration)
Any word on Osprey Bitcoin Trust, ticker symbol OBTC, converting into an ETF? They are much smaller than GBTC but they always had a much lower expense fee than Grayscale at 0.49% vs 2%.
Yes. At this moment, management fees on Bitcoin trusts traded on stock exchanges range from 1% (OBTC) to 2% (GBTC) - annually - ever single year! For physical Bitcoin bought on a crypto exchange and then held in self-custody, you just pay the one-time trading fee of the exchange, somewhere from 0% to 2% (0.25% to 0.5% are common on exchanges like Coinbase or Kraken) depending on the exchange and your trading volume. No fees for holding thereafter. So if you are going to hold the Bitcoin for more than a few months, and you know how to use a Bitcoin wallet, you are definitely better off buying physical Bitcoin. Of course fees for Bitcoin ETFs are expected to come down somewhat due to increasing competition, but we are unlikely to see them go much below 1% annually.
$OBTC more transparent actually revealing reserve wallet address in custody with Coinbase after gbtc refused to and it's similar in discount and the fees are much lower. Problem is when BTC dies who knows what happens to this. Usdt insolvent and decoupling from usd incoming any day they want to announce it. That's why BTC is discounted 50 percent with gbtc and still no one is buying it. They hijacked crypto with tether and sbf Alameda got 70 percent of all tether printed or 40 percent either way unless sbf paid usd for it then most likely it's ftx coins which have tanked. All planned
Yes, you are correct. Their fees are high. Given the 42% discount to current NAV though I don't consider that too bad. I could invest in OBTC instead as their fees are only .49% however, they are not nearly as large as GBTC and I have not researched then enough to feel comfortable with them. Are you familiar with Osprey Bitcoin Trust (OBTC)?
OBTC has much lower management fees but poor liquidity.
2017: JP Morgan Chase: “Bitcoin is a fraud” 2021: JP Morgan Chase “We are excited to be onboarded to the JPMorgan wealth platform. OBTC remains the lowest-priced publicly traded bitcoin fund in the U.S”
> Could the code of Bitcoin be changed to change to Proof of Stake is what I’m ultimately asking. Yes, you could fork Bitcoin while keeping Nakamoto Consensus but changing Sybil resistance to PoS. OBTC, BTCS, and BCI are all PoS BTC hard forks.
It amazes me that GBTC is trading at a 30% discount to NAV. Taking the 2% management fees into account, it means the market thinks it will take GBTC close to 15 years to turn into a redeemable ETF. That's incredibly pessimistic. I've been loading up on GBTC and OBTC just for the arbitrage.
Makes perfect sense. For a buy-and-hold for several years strategy, any of them probably make a lot of sense including OBTC as I understand even it has grown a lot in assets through the last couple of years.
Extremely low volume trading. I can’t get in and out of OBTC nearly as easily on Schwab. Ended up going with BITO which worked perfectly
I imagine that if GBTC converts to ETF then OBTC will do the same soon thereafter so with OBTC at less than half the cost and nearly identical NAV Discount (approximately 30%), I'm long OBTC unless I'm missing anything else.
Why not buy OBTC instead of GBTC? I understand that the fund and trade volume are fractions of GBTC but OBTC currently offers essentially the same NAV Discount (close to 30%) at less than half the costs. If you're LONG Bitcoin then why not buy and hold OBTC? If GBTC converts to ETF then I'm sure that OBTC will have to do the same soon after in order to stay competitive. Let me know if I'm missing anything.
Yes, it has been at a discount for a long time but I don't recall seeing it at 30% discount, same with OBTC. If/when they convert to ETF then investor funds are adjusted to Bitcoin market value, right? At that point investors "earn" that discounted price, I understand, and then can cash it out upon selling their "now ETF" holdings?
I think you're misunderstanding the process. Grayscale offered private placements of GBTC to every accredited investor who wanted it. They only create more units to match demand by investors. When there was a positive premium, many investors bought at net asset value in the private placement, hoping to sell and capture the premium when the units became unrestricted after 6 months IIRC. In fact, many investors would buy via the PP and immediately hedge by shorting bitcoin futures, with the expectation that they would capture the premium in a low-risk manner. That's one reason the premium disappeared and the discount became so massive: the collateral underpinning these hedged trades collapsed in value and many of those investors/traders became forced sellers. When the premium turned into a discount, Grayscale also suspended new private placements. Similar process for Osprey. Their trust is worth ~100MM because that's how much demand they had from investors for their private placements. Osprey created as many units as they could, just as Grayscale did. They can't just dilute on a whim, new money has to come in from investor demand and only arrives while the premium still exists. That's what makes these vehicles different from an ETF. There's no Authorized Participant who can create and redeem units to ensure the secondary market price matches the net asset value. The premium/discount in GBTC and OBTC are completely out of the control of the managers of these trusts.
I mean it’s also just that OBTC started at the wrong price and volume and they’ve burned all of their initial investors so hard that no one wants to touch them now.
Yeah, that's understandable. I think that's exactly why GBTC dominates OBTC in volume and assets even though the latter is essentially a carbon copy with a 75% lower management fee. Apparently the market cares more about liquidity and the prospect of eventual conversion to an ETF than the management fee. I know I certainly do.
That's my point. Just because an insider sells, doesn't make the security itself a scam. And yeah, because OBTC trades like a closed-end fund, there's no assurance of liquidity. It can only be directly bought at NAV from Osprey themselves via a private placement, and those units will be restricted from being sold in the secondary markets for a period of time. Lack of liquidity also doesn't make it a scam, but it's a risk buyers should be aware of.
Why would Elon selling some shares make Tesla a scam? I’m saying OBTC is something you do not want to be stuck bagholding as you might not be able to liquidate your shares without far underselling them. Tesla isn’t like that.
Much like GBTC, OBTC started trading at a premium which withered away over time and became a discount. That explains the underperformance. Weak volume is probably explained by the crowded field of bitcoin products nowadays...OBTC originally gained interest due to their cheaper management fee than GBTC but it seems that hype has dropped off. GBTC at least has the prospect of conversion to an ETF to maintain interest. As far as creators liquidating shares, I can't find any info to indicate that. But either way, I don't think that implies it's a scam. Tesla isn't a scam just because Elon sold some shares.
You can harvest losses on securities. You may be referring to wash sale rules, which hinges on whether they are 'substantially similar' securities. That's probably up for debate, but in my understanding even 2 ETFs that track the S&P 500 aren't considered substantially similar, so I would suspect that switching between GBTC and OBTC wouldn't trigger wash sale rules (but ask a CPA if you want a more informed opinion).
I'm curious what makes you think OBTC is a scam
Gee wiz, a lot of enthusiastic replies, but few are addressing your question. Perhaps a plus for swithcing positions is that GBTC's leadership has been said to have excessive and unreasonably large salaries, which cut into their value. Then again, GBTC share price could increase if they gain SEC approval as a spot. I don't know about Osprey (and i believe you are referring to OBTC). I am curious about your strategy, though, since i thought both OBTC and GBTC are treated as securities, thus harvesting losses wouldn't be possible, or am i missing something?
Yo thank you!! I haven’t heard of this one. This is exactly what I’m looking for because OBTC looks like garbage. I almost made the trade and then realized my trade would have been 50% of their entire volume lmao
Well the reason I ask is because I currently have losses on my GBTC so if I can just switch it to another bitcoin holding fund I can harvest the losses and then just move the money back into GBTC a month from now. The issue is after looking more into OBTC it looks like a scam. Now I’m annoyed because I already sold the GBTC but then when I went to buy OBTC I noticed the incredibly small volume and got confused…now I’m fucked in this account so maybe I’ll settle for micro strategy? But they’re up 3% today which makes no sense either. GBTC seems to be the only safe bet for bitcoin holdings :-/
I have a self-directed IRA full of Bitcoin. It works but the setup fees are quite high, and there is also a small annual fee for the custodian and the LLC registration. So it only pays off for $100k and more I would say. Below that threshold it's more cost effective to open a regular IRA with a custodian and buy GBTC or OBTC. OBTC has low liquidity but only 0.5% annual fees. Just make sure to buy with a limit order. I know there are also "Bitcoin IRAs" that buy Bitcoin on your behalf, but the premiums and fees made this inferior to the two options above the last time I checked. If you are a hardcore "Not your coins not your crypto" person, there is only one option of course: self-directed IRA.
thoughts on OBTC vs GBTC for my IRA account?
OBTC has much lower management fees though. Low liquidity, so use limit orders and be a bit patient.
OBTC also a good option. Fee is lower, fund is smaller, but also aiming to become a true spot ETF. I own this in my Roth
You could buy $GBTC or $OBTC and have tax free bitcoin
No it defeats the whole purpose of bitcoin, if you’re that concerned buy GBTC or OBTC on the stock market
Yeah, I don't like the 2% fees on GBTC, but it's currently the only option for me to get exposure to BTC in a tax deferred account without going the self-directed IRA route. If liquidity isn't a concern, OBTC seems like a good option as well.
Can you buy OBTC OTC? Fees on OBTC are better than GBTC. AUM is much smaller (144M vs. 33B). This may make it subject to wider discrepancy in price vs. NAV - although both are currently at ~ -20%. I do GBTC in my rollover account, with the expectation that once they convert to an ETF, the fees should decrease.
It is stupid. I don’t know anything about GTBC or OBTC other than both being in OTC markets. It seems like you’ve done your own analysis and found OBTC to be better value. I’m not sure you’ll get constructive answers from the maxis here. They certainly aren’t going to help you feel confident in your analysis.
I don’t waste time or money trying to avoid taxes If you want exposure to crypto,although indirect,buy GBTC,GDLC, or OBTC in a Roth IRA. The only thing is really love for these exchanges to do is to make it easy to report transactions in tax prep software like TurboTax. I can sign into my brokerage accounts via TurboTax and pull the 1099s and have it added easily.
most of us don't believe it will be 20 years before getting a real bitcoin etf. OBTC is 0.93% as another alternative right now
well a lot of us here want bitcoin exposure in retirement accounts. your choices currently are closed end funds like GBTC and OBTC, or this. personally i go with gbtc
Unchained Capital is launching one soon and they are very reputable and they help you set up multi-sig. You can sign up for the waiting list on their site. I'm going to roll a small 401k over to them when they launch. I'm addition to GBTC, consider OBTC. Lower fees and tracking much closer to NAV then GBTC. I have some of both in my IRA where I also invest in stocks.
OBTC is shit. Their premium is ridiculous. Stick with GBTC.
If I plan on holding 1-3 years within my Roth, maybe liquidity will improve and I’m mostly just trying to capture the run up form like $49-$300K and then whatever OBTC rises to with like $10K invested, I’ll redistribute my accrued appreciation and may take out a down payment for a house and then continue to buy regular BTC out of money I would be putting back for a down payment? What do you think of that strategy?
OBTC is another option. Similar trust like GBTC but with lower fees. Though it's newer so less liquidity.
tldr; Greg King, CEO of Osprey Funds, a boutique digital asset investment firm, believes that Bitcoin could reach $100,000 or $200,000 within the next three months. He added that Bitcoin's market cycles usually end with a 900% appreciation. He also disclosed his firm's plan to re-file a Bitcoin ETF with their OBTC fund. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*
>Four of the products are from Grayscale Investments and include: 1. Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC) 2. Grayscale Bitcoin Cash Trust (BCHG) 3. Grayscale Ethereum Trust (ETHE) 4. Grayscale Ethereum Classic Trust (ETCG) 5. Osprey Bitcoin Trust (OBTC) is part of the Osprey Funds. >6. Per the coverage, only the bank’s private clients will have access to a sixth Bitcoin fund, which the technology and financial services firm New York Digital Investment Group (NYDIG) recently developed.
Can't short OBTC because their are no shares available for sale. Is this an example of institutional buyin into Bitcoin?
Thanks for all the good info everyone. OBTC is actually available to trade on TD. It looks like a strong option. The only difference I can find with it vs Greyscale are just the lower fees.
Thanks. It looks like OBTC has a management fee of 0.49% compared to Greyscale's 2.5%. It appears that I can buy either on TD. Is there a reason you'd recommend Greyscale over OBTC?
yea but they can't handle AMC prattle-- I'm a diversified ape. I have ETFs and individual stocks -- Been trimming stocks so much 3 of my top 10 holdings in fidelity are now crypto-- BITW ETHE and OBTC
Buy ticket symbol OBTC for Bitcoin trust ETF, it's maintenance free way to own Bitcoin indirectly. No wallet management etc.
Can anyone tell me why OBTC is trading below NAV? I get that GBTC is trading lower than NAV because of its management fees, but is there something better than OBTC now?
You mean buy Bitcoin with one half, deposit the other half into a traditional IRA and buy GBTC and OBTC?
traded out of Grayscale due to the expense rate.. OBTC supposed to be better then traded out of that for more diversification with BITW then paper handed it into this rally;( yes I'm kicking myself as I was expecting Bitcoin Rally cuz of the gov stim $$$--
Either buy the trash that is GBTC or OBTC at a premium. Pretty much choosing to shoot off your left or right nuts.
There is little alternative for tax advantages accounts unless an ETF comes out. Sure as hell not buying OBTC at a 10% premium.
Why would someone pay a premium to buy OBTC vs buying GBTC? Imagine of GBTC converts to an ETF, an automatic 10% profit
OBTC premium is alive again. As a GBTC holder, hey Grayscale fuck you.
DON'T buy OBTC. They hold 1/3 of the bitcoin that GBTC does. Sure, their FEES are lower, but their price premium means you're paying them for vapor.
Yeah, OBTC is trading about 2% premium above the trust’s holdings. GBTC is selling at about 10% below the trust’s holdings. GBTC 2% annual fee OBTC .5% annual fee GBTC is the better buy as trusts are trusts, the only difference is the management fee, and getting around 12% more Bitcoin per dollar invested = assuming Bitcoin stays flat for the next 15 years it will literally take 15 years to make up the premium difference.
Buy OBTC instead (if it's available to you), you'll pay 0.49% annual management fee vs 2.0% for GBTC.
Buy OBTC instead (if it's available to you), you'll pay 0.49% annual management fee vs 2.0% for GBTC.
GBTC’s managers are a bunch of greedy asshats. But I would never buy OBTC at a premium when GBTC is at a 10% discount.
Why would you even consider buying OBTC at a premium when you can buy GBTC at a discount? Check the volume for OBTC - last I checked there was no liquidity. But maybe I’m just sour that I lost 150k on OBTC in a matter of two hours when the premium suddenly shrank. Never again
I bought 750k worth Feb 19 for $55.32 a share when btc was around 55k. The premium evaporated and became a discount. Currently down 81k. But I’ve done worse. I lost over 150k in OBTC. Fuck these two btc trusts.
All funds like these historically open at crazy premiums due to the investments of some the initial clueless investors, dumb money so to speak. after a lengthy period of time it goes towards NAV. OBTC was trading 250% above premium too last month when it started, now its only at 11% premium. The first period of the funds starting time should be removed to prevent misinterpretation of the data. GBTC has been trading near NAV (by near i mean +- 10-20%) for most of its years, as most of these funds do.
GBTC was accredited investor’s way of dumping hot premium trash onto retail. The fund issued shares like no tomorrow and now everyone is getting screwed. The fact this thing is trading at 15-20% discount just shows why we need a Bitcoin ETF. This thing doesn’t deserve 1% fee let alone 2%, but I guess it is still better than buying OBTC at a premium.
Lol, OBTC is the exact same setup, trading at a premium, just lower annual fees
Oh that explains why Fidelity blocked OBTC for like a week.
Noob here, why is a Bitcoin ETF different from GBTC or OBTC?
GBTC is one of very few choice people have to get BTC exposure. In the current stage it doesn’t remotely justify its 2% fee and the management at GBTC shows no interest in getting the premium back. But I’m sure has hell not touching OBTC at such a premium.
And yet, still better than buying OBTC at a premium to NAV
what's surprising is that while GBTC is trading @ a 5% discount as I'm writing this.... OBTC is trading at nearly a 25% premium [https://bitbo.io](https://bitbo.io)
I have a decent holding in GBTC for a while and I have been adding ever since the discount few weeks ago. I just don’t understand why OBTC is trading at a 10% premium when you can get GBTC at a discount.
Other than the 1.5% fee difference is there any reason why GBTC is trading at a discount and OBTC is trading at a premium? The difference is well over 10% seems kind of extreme for 1.5% in fees?
Great strat! I’ll definitely have to look into this. Thought: One thing you’d also need to consider when arbitrage swapping different assets (i.e. ETHE - GBTC) is their asset price ratio. For example, if you swap out of GBTC into ETHE because you spot a 10% premium difference, but ETH has gained 10% value to BTC, it’s basically a wash. But for same asset (i.e. OBTC - GBTC) it’s all about the premium. As stated earlier by others, the 0.5% vs 2% fee is negligible.
Isn’t GBTC and OBTC taxed the same way? An extra 1.5% fee shouldn’t be the reason of such a huge premium/discount. feels like I’m missing something.
Anyone here can give me a quick explanation why GBTC is trading at a discount while OBTC is at a premium?
Please don't - learn from [my mistake](https://www.reddit.com/r/OBTC/comments/ln3zzr/why_the_helll_did_obtc_crash_today_when_bitcoin/)
OBTC is a crock. At one time they were significantly higher than a 14% premium, trading at the same price as GBTC despite giving you a lot less BTC per share. It may adjust over time, but for the moment, OBTC is suckering people in with the pose of lower fees, but in doing so, is selling them something that greatly overvalues the current price bitcoin.
I agree. None of these funds are tracking BTC price very well, including GBTC. Buying actual BTC is preferred, unless it's an IRA, and then GBTC and OBTC are useful. OBTC's premium is much closer to NAV now, with a 0.49% management fee. GBTC currently trades at a "discount" to BTC , with a 2% management fee. In the end, it seems that the price ends up being whatever folks want to pay for GBTC or OBTC. I don't think there's any recourse for either of these funds though. They are on OTC markets. There isn't any guarantee for them to be tightly coupled to BTC. I do think whenever one of these new BTC trusts come out, people shouldn't buy in right away because there is going to be a premium. I hope more people see this and look into the NAV before buying. Also, hopefully an approved BTC ETF will track the price better and whoever runs it will be held more accountable that it tracks the price accurately.
Just because GBTC behaved the same in 2015 does not mean it is not unethical. No one will knowingly pay 3X more for what something is worth. You'd have to be an idiot to pay a 'premium' of $55 for something worth $17 unless some paid decoy buyers misled the herd into buying at $55. No idea what happed with GBTC back in 2015 but OBTC is highly unethical. Do not count on its share price to track BTC price. These funds are all trash at the best.
I’m holding GBTC and I’ve felt the negative premium squeeze too. I’ve thought about ditching it for OBTC, but NAV on that shows the share price should be around $14-15, not the $21-22 it’s been selling for. That’s a huge premium. So, if your choice is the OTC market instead of actual BTC, GBTC seems like the better choice for me. The fact that GBTC is using $250M cash to buy back shares is encouraging, but that translates to about 5M shares, a drop in the bucket. Maybe will bring down the negative premium by 1-2%. The only thing that will really reduce/eliminate the negative premium is an increase in BTC price and therefore GBTC share demand with more people buying it. But GBTC put a stop on share sales this week (I think it’s still in effect). Then they can buy back shares as it’s sold in the OTC market with no further shares going out for sale. I’m just a novice, and this is not financial advice, but I believe this will help the negative premium shrink, and even get back to an actual positive premium. I’m worried what will happen to GBTC when a Bitcoin EFT get approved by the SEC, but that’s probably no earlier than September. So if you want BTC action via OTC (anyone investing thru their IRA) market, it’s GBTC. Of course I’m only talking about USA investors. By the way, I’m so pissed, I opened a Coinbase Pro account today. But most of my $ to invest is locked in IRA.
The goal isn't unlimited adoption the goal is decentralization. >I believe they are far better off using something like Paypal, Coinbase, Robinhood or investing through GBTC/OBTC etc Do you somehow miss the people daily complaining that the exact parties you cite are holding their coins or that their accounts were hacked or SIM swapped? Let alone the way people gullible enough to use GBTC are getting reamed on the premiums every which way - it's not even worth the tax savings (which is itself basically the government trying to incentivize you not to own Bitcoin, which you're encouraging).
2830sh Hodl GBTC its on Sale! From articles I'V read 1% discount would B the Norm 2% ann fee OBTC is Trading @ 150% Prem .49% Fee that one is Down TODAY!
I've been swing trading GBTC OBTC and ETHE for some time now. They make all of their upward motion in the after hours then cough it up all day. Buy whichever is lowest in the last hour of trading and sell at open. Usually between 3 and 11% a day, doesn't matter if they went up or down or if the markets are fritzed. Getting pretty fucking rich. Enjoy.
> Digital Currency Group - the parent of Grayscale Investments - announces authorization for the purchase of up to $250M worth of Grayscale Bitcoin Trust (GBTC). The GBTC of late has consistently traded at a discount to net asset value (that value being made up wholly of bitcoin). The fund currently has north of $14B in AUM. In other news, a check of job listings suggests Grayscale is planning on an ETF launch, as the company last night posted a number of ETF-related positions. Grayscale's trusts currently come with sizable fees and do not trade on the major exchanges, but instead OTC. Checking prices, bitcoin (BTC-USD) had a highly volatile night, but is currently about flat from a day ago at $55.7K. The all-time high is roughly $58.5K. There have recently been a couple of Bitcoin ETF launches in Canada, and the Osprey Bitcoin Trust (OTCPK:OBTC) in the U.S. which charges a smaller fee than GBTC.
buy OBTC has a premium for consideration too
​ >**Monthly Account Admin Fees:** This 1% annual recurring fee is charged monthly to the credit card on file, and covers Alto's account maintenance and tax reporting costs. This fee is is charged monthly and is based on the total account size for that month. > >**Per Transaction Fees:** Each time you execute an order in your Coinbase wallet, a 1.5% fee will be included in your total order size. Fees seem steep when compared to OBTC which I can easily buy at my brokerage and only has 0.49% annual fee and ZERO transaction fees sources: [https://help.altoira.com/alto-cryptoira](https://help.altoira.com/alto-cryptoira) [https://ospreyfunds.io/products/](https://ospreyfunds.io/products/)
Looks like it's on its way down there....OBTC -7% while bitcoin up today
There are other stocks that track Bitcoin now that have lower fees and track Bitcoin more accurately. OBTC has lower fees, BTCC.U tracks more accurately and has lower fees. Unless GBTC lowers their fees, the outflow to their competitors will continue. That said, if BTC goes up, you're still gonna make lots of money. The decision for yourself to move to their competitors will probably come down to tax implications.
OBTC has 0.00034136 BTC per share and a 0.49% fee. At close Friday each share represented roughly $16.27 worth of Bitcoin (NAV), and OBTC traded at $24.21 (148% of NAV). GBTC has 0.00094680 BTC per share and a 2% fee. At close Friday each share represented roughly $45.11 worth of Bitcoin (NAV), and OBTC traded at $43.80 (97% of NAV). You’re right, but you weren’t right a week or two ago :) It’s crazy how volatile these are with regard to discount/premium. https://ycharts.com/companies/GBTC/discount_or_premium_to_nav (can’t find a chart for OBTC). Personally I have half and half in my IRA, but when I bought OBTC it was trading at a discount to NAV and GBTC was at a premium to NAV. Either way, once prices stabilize, I’d prefer OBTC’s lower fee.
Is the premium on OBTC supposed to decrease over time or will it always be this high (~100%) ?
I’d get a lawyer on this. Coinbase kept triggering my bank’s fraud system to the point that my card kept getting locked. I had to pull out my money(luckily this happened before my bank blocked them). I’m using OBTC and GBTC for exposure without dealing with these exchanges.
Uhm.... OBTC was trading at around a 50% premium today. The only people ditching GBTC for OBTC are people who cannot do math.