NAV

watch-nerd

ETHE is a workable option in the mean time, discount to NAV isn’t too bad

Oldted67

That’s my point. People are excited about GBTC because they say the NAV differential will go away as if the trust itself changes into an ETF, but won’t the ETF be a total separate entity?

NewBrowserWhoThis

Will this actually stop the ETF from trading at a premium or discount to the NAV? I thought most ETFs work like this and I see premiums/discounts >0.25% all the time

Jd20001

I wouldn't say less risky at all. I own GBTC and their premium discount +2% fee has been nothing but a headache and mismanaged IMO. If fidelity had an true NAV product backed by real bitcoin ive leave these fools in a heartbeat

MiguelLancaster

okay, possibly not 'immediate' but why do you think that discount to NAV won't eventually disappear, especially if converted to an ETF?

MiguelLancaster

the ETF will trade at NAV GBTC in it's current form trades at a significant discount At current price (61K) one share is supposed to be $61 but it's currently $40-something

tastetherainbow_

Current discount to NAV is 15%, so NAV is $54.52.

bitsteiner

I bought into GBTC and I am up by about 20,000%, so it was not a terrible idea at all. I give the 14% discount to NAV a shit. And, if you buy into GBTC now, you can get bitcoin exposure at a discount. It will disappear in the long term. Grayscale wants to convert it into an ETF holding real Bitcoin, not just futures like the other ETF.

itsthesecans

I honestly don't know why anyone would buy the futures etf when they can buy the Grayscale Bitcoin Trust for a 15% discount to NAV. Also, what the "not your key, not your bitcoin" crowd needs to understand is that bitcoin has to be made more accessible to be more widely adopted by people. The futures ETF is at least a step in that direction.

EcstaticDistance4304

Thanks right now GBTC trades at a 17-19% discount to NAV due to the illiquidity of the structure (I think). So hopefully if it gets converted to an ETF the discount narrows to zero.

randomee1

ETF's by their nature trade extremely close to NAV...its basically the entire point and whole mandate to management is to do that.

Tron_Passant

Yeah seems like this would be a huge deal since they are like the world's biggest BTC holder. I've made some nice gains on GBTC but the NAV spread is shit right now and getting back to spot would be a great boost.

suckercuck

GBTC’s NAV is FUK

jonderdonk1

It's really simpler than that. GBTC is currently priced at a 16.61% discount to NAV. There are no guarantees that the discount will ever narrow. In fact, it is possible that it could continue widening for months or even years, especially if many holders of GBTC sell out to invest in ETFs.

NiGhTShR0uD

Yeah I've been in NAV since 2017/2018 so I've ridden the dragon from the highs to the depths. I really had high hopes for the project but looking at it from an investment perspective, there are more lucrative projects out there. I'll likely reinvest in the future though.

NiGhTShR0uD

I'm sorry but I had to exit my positions on NAV. I've held them for as long as I could. Still wish all the best for them.

Nutmasher

Not necessarily. I am worried that GBTC will continue to shed NAV. Who's to say -16% or -20% NAV is the limit? Grayscale's ETCG is -40% NAV and it was +50% in April. If the ETFs succeed and are available in IRAs, people will pull out of GBTC. At the moment, I am looking on a -8% breakeven at $65,000 before converting to the ETF (if available in the IRAs).

Nutmasher

I know Cathie Wood owns a lot of GBTC. Question is whether the new ETFs will be better instruments in retirement accts. I own GBTC and trade /mbt futures. I am worried that GBTC will continue to shed NAV. Who's to say -16% or -20% NAV is the limit? Grayscale's ETCG is -40% NAV and it was +50% in April.

bill_hilly

NAV

pictogasm

I converted my 401k to GBTC. I'm hoping GBTC is the first to convert to an ETF, hopefully eliminating the discount to NAV. Regardless, even with the fluctuations in discount to NAV, I'm still happy to keep it in my 401k.

Livid_Cryptographer7

All ETFs have third party custodians to hold the assets. All ETFs also have auditors who work with the custodian to ensure the reported assets are, in fact, held by the custodian. I imagine the custodians may actually hold the bulk of the NAV in hardware wallets with the addresses published so public knows what is held - as do auditors. A portion would be kept in transactional accounts to settle inflows/outflows. This is my best guess as to how it would work.

ajparent

The purpose of converting to an etf would be to eliminate the discount/premium to NAV. For current grayscale holders, that would mean an immediate increase of value to very close to NAV of the trust.

Chewie_Defense

I own much more BTC than miners. I also love to grab premium off the miners when the I believe market is mispricing them. Keep in mind though that miners have gone from net sellers of BTC to net holders. MARA went so far as to borrow against their bitcoin stack rather than sell it to cover operational costs and growth. Hut and bitfarms have moved their BTC to their treasuries Their stock price will have a NAV related to their hodl stack. Plus forward looking revenue based on future hashrate. I like the potential. I believe BITF could be trading around $25 by this time next year if I’m right about bitcoins market cycle peak not coming till Q2-3 next year (I know that’s not the popular opinion though)

ClaustrophobicShop

I always found them promising, but I thought interoperability was their thing...but they're not a DOT competitor. Regarding the business focused blockchains with sidechains, like NAV, etc, never really delivered. Hope Ark stays relevant.

Doggybone_treat

Lmao. That's where CKB came in. Way ahead of NAV. Everything is in place. Just waiting for more peoples to recognize it

watch-nerd

Yes, I hold it, the discount it's the steepest its been in a long time. I'm curious to see what happens when a futures BTC ETF comes out. Either: a) People flee GBTC for the shiny new thing, causing the discount to widen or b) People who don't want the futures-based ETF pile into GBTC, reducing the discount to NAV a) seems more likely in the short term

watch-nerd

I'm really curious how a futures-based GTC ETF will impact GBTC. On the one hand, it won't have a monopoly anymore, so may have outflows. On the other hand, a futures ETF isn't the same as a trust that holds actual coins. Discount to NAV is -17% right now. If that gap closes, it could be 'free money'. Or it could widen....

bill_hilly

NAV

WeekendQuant

You get a situation where you are paying a premium to NAV.

PoopKing5

These work in a retirement account. But you lose the tax benefits in a taxable account of the wash sale rule not applying to crypto. Also, mgmt fees and premium/discount to NAV can go against you in a bull or bear market if you’re looking to sell.

blueberry-yogurt

They've been looking into converting into an ETF. Even if they don't, though, what else can you do? Sell at a discount and buy the futures ETF if/when approved? Seems like that would be a worse deal since you'd lock in the discount, rather than hoping for an eventual return to NAV. Remember that last year, everyone was freaking about the GBTC \*premium* to the NAV.

pakage

NavCoin's privacy protocol - xNAV - is a combination of BLS signatures and Confidential Transactions. This requires no trusted setup like zk-snarks and allows for larger anonymity sets than Monero. Being proof of stake, transactions are fast, cheap and eco-friendly. The NavCoin blockchain supports both NAV and xNAV which can be swapped on chain 1:1. This protects NavCoin from being delisted as a privacy coin from exchanges since they can choose to only list NAV instead of xNAV. NavCoin also offers wrapped NAV - wNAV - on both BSC and ETH which means you can provide liquidity and perform other de-fi earning while being able to enter and exist the de-fi ecosystem seamlessly through a privacy coin. NavCoin is truly decentralised, it's a community driven project that never ran an ICO, and is funded by a decentralised community fund which sponsors project through on chain DAO voting. There are so many reasons why NAV is awesome and xNAV is a great privacy option. If you want to learn more about how BLSCT works, you can check out these resources; Comparing xNAV with Other Privacy-Enhanced Coins Introducing xNAV And generally check out the NavCoin medium account to learn more about all the facets of NavCoin.

pakage

NavCoin's privacy protocol - xNAV - is a combination of BLS signatures and Confidential Transactions. This requires no trusted setup like zk-snarks and allows for larger anonymity sets than Monero. The NavCoin blockchain supports both NAV and xNAV which can be swapped 1:1. This protects NavCoin from being delisted as a privacy coin from exchanges since they can choose to only list NAV instead of xNAV. NavCoin also offers wrapped NAV - wNAV - on both BSC and ETH which means you can provide liquidity and perform other de-fi earning while being able to enter and exist the de-fi ecosystem seamlessly through a privacy coin. NavCoin is truly decentralised, it's a community driven project that never ran an ICO, and is funded by a decentralised community fund which sponsors project through on chain DAO voting. There are so many reasons why NAV is awesome and xNAV is a great privacy option. If you want to learn more about how BLSCT works, you can check out these resources; [Comparing xNAV with Other Privacy-Enhanced Coins](https://medium.com/nav-coin/comparing-xnav-with-other-privacy-enhanced-coins-151b420629ac) [Introducing xNAV](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6XIk5WS-Gk) And generally check out the NavCoin medium account to learn more about all the facets of NavCoin.

Tron_Passant

Right now it's like 14% below NAV, so if people think it will get back there it's almost like buying BTC at a discount. I understand it's not the same as holding your own bitcoin. I have some of both, just curious what a competing ETF might do considering Grayscale is the biggest institutional holder by far.

GrapefruitGlum

I dont think it would affect the premium much. If anything it would bring to closer to NAV, since if one etf passed its only a matter of time until grayscale gets theirs approved also.

liracobopu

>Are there any type of "index fund" or "mutual fund" cryptocurrecies in the works right now? If you're in the USA, you could purchase [BITW](https://www.bitwiseinvestments.com/funds/Bitwise-10) with your brokerage account, but the NAV/market value can be wildly different. Recently, [Makara](https://makara.com/) and [Titan Invest](https://www.titan.com/) have opened up their crypto-based robo investing platforms. Personally, I've been using Makara and created a portfolio of [25% BTC 25% ETH 50% Universe baskets](https://makara.com/baskets) which puts me very close to the asset allocation of some index funds on DeFi (e.g. PiDAO BCP, Bankless BED)

blueberry-yogurt

> Bitcoin ETF from Canada That's the one that was charging a 300% premium to their NAV, right?

watch-nerd

Sort of. You can use Grayscale trusts, such as GBTC and ETHE, to proxy it. But they do trade at a discount to NAV, which could be a positive or a negative, depending on your POV. Also, the volume is a bit thin, so use limit orders to buy.

PaulP97

NAV is net asset value. Basically it’s the entire worth of the holdings, minus fees, then divided by the total number of shares. That number represents the exact dollar value of what the shares are worth, but you can just go on their website and it’ll tell you. https://grayscale.com/products/grayscale-bitcoin-trust/

knowledgelover94

What’s NAV? Are you saying GBTC is discounted from the price of bitcoin? Almost like you’re buying 17% more BTC buying their shares! I’m not sure I understand what the closed end fund means. GBTC plans on transitioning to what? Thanks for the insightful response!

PaulP97

The problem with GBTC is that it operates as a trust, meaning it trades as a closed-end fund and could be at a discount or premium compared to the NAV. As of right now, GBTC is trading at a 17% discount. An ETF would follow the NAV more closely. But the more important question is- will the ETF be physical holding, or futures-based? Physical holding would be a good thing. All the money that flows into the ETF would be used to purchase Bitcoin as an actual holding. Bullish. If it’s futures-based, then the ETF would trade based on futures contracts, which 1. Is a derivative, and would have no impact on the price of Bitcoin itself. Not bullish. And 2. Would be suspect to theta decay of the premium for the contracts, meaning you could potentially lose money even if Bitcoin is flat.

watch-nerd

If true.... That GBTC discount to NAV is looking like easy money.

manalexicon

The fund NAV exceeds the share price (and has for months) so they might be selling held Bitcoins to bring the NAV down to the actual GBTC price.

michelvankessel

KMD, QTUM, NAV, BLK and LTC...might buy some more LTC

ltdanaintgutnolegs

NAV coin ✊

Chewie_Defense

It was the only way to get BTC exposure in my Roth IRA, so yeah I have a size-able position in GBTC and ETHE. Fucking disgusted by it trading well below NAV though

NAGAuk

NAV

WhoisStJimmy

NAV will watch your career with great interest

LibRightEcon

Some discount vs BTC NAV is expected of course, because of counter party risk and the extremely high management fees. BTC is very cheap to custody, so real btc should always be at some premium vs custodial. If there was a way to quickly redeem GBTC shares for BTC, then the discount would probably stabilize around between ~1% to ~4% under the NAV. (depending on fees and lockup times) Basically, if you could buy a full block of GBTC, redeem it for BTC the next day, and end up in profit net of fees and overhead, then you would expect arb pressure alone would keep the price of the fund pegged close to the NAV. But since the SEC wont allow redemption to happen, there is no bottom price. OTOH There is a ceiling price cause by arb, and its around 20% premium over nav. It would be lower if not for the 6 month lockup. Given the risks and costs of GBTC arb, investors interest is generally unlimited @ ~20% expected gain over 6 months. So GBTC has a highish premium ceiling but no discount floor. Blame the SEC.

watch-nerd

There are important technical differences between a Trust, like Grayscale has, and a true ETF. A true ETF shouldn't have such a wide spread between NAV and price like GBTC does.

Bitcoin1776

One of the few plays I didn't better than BTC with... at one point MSTR was trading on par with the cash + BTC value, and BTC was at $15k. The trick is knowing how to do CALL SPREADS. Call spreads are god damn insane economically. Like, you can make a bet that TSLA will be worth 20% less than it is today (or better), a year from now, and double your money. You can make a bet, today that MSTR / BTC will be worth $50k at the next halving (and MSTR will be trading at NAV) and 5x your money... Call spreads are god damn insane whenever a stock gets depressed. I bought over $250k when TSLA was $530 a few times this year... got 100% returns when TSLA got to $700... and I gave it 2 years to get there, but only needed 6 months. When BTC drops 50% or more, you leverage in. When BTC doubles, you deleverage. With stocks, you do 'call spreads' on dips, and sell on peaks. The difference between a call spread and leveraging, is leveraging has unlimited upside... call spreads, it doesn't matter if it goes to $10,000 per share, or $800, you get paid the same... so it's easy to liquidate when you get 80 to 90% of max potential.

isenk2

But the NAV deviation of the etfs are fairly low right? So I think it is the price of gold that is going down, which kind of rebuts your first argument. Sorry, just playing the devil's advocate, because I am really curious about this.

thedeadlybishop

Great to see more options available for tax protected accounts. I do have concerns how wildly off these vehicles often trade from their NAV.

BerryGT

Unchained Capital is launching one soon and they are very reputable and they help you set up multi-sig. You can sign up for the waiting list on their site. I'm going to roll a small 401k over to them when they launch. I'm addition to GBTC, consider OBTC. Lower fees and tracking much closer to NAV then GBTC. I have some of both in my IRA where I also invest in stocks.

21Milly

If you absolutely must trade within the traditional brokerage box then GBTC is the way to go. It’s currently trading at a discount to NAV unlike MSTR which is trading at a significant premium.

KindlyBlacksmith4003

Yes, the GBTC premium/discount to NAV swings significantly. Currently it's quite cheap, -17%!

Aggravating_Wrap_964

NAV

Boredguy32

Everyone buy 1 share of GBTC also ($40) im sick of that stupid discount, lets get it back to NAV. 👍

Pmmenakedbitcoin

A true Bitcoin ETF would be like GBTC but likely lower fees and allow for shares to get exchanged for the funds NAV. So right now GBTC has had large premiums and discounts to the NAV of the fund. It would also lower expense ratios since they would be forced to compete with other bitcoin ETFs. At this point it would not make a huge impact. There are already many ways to get exposure to Bitcoin without actually buying Bitcoin.

manalexicon

So does GBTC, currently at a 12% discount to NAV.

zachuwf

Everyone loved NAV back then too

GFuggitt

Nope. Check their price to NAV. Still at a discount

thedeadlybishop

Must be why it’s trading 50% above NAV

givingbackTuesday

It’s different than an ETF though which is why it can have +\- NAV (Net Asset Value).

seven90seven

I'm currently GBTC, but thinking about switching to BTCFX because it will close at NAV everyday. Seems "less risky" than GBTC... which one did you choose?

nevermore5286

Actually, a few of the Grayscale trusts are trading at a discount to the NAV. If you go to their website, you can look up the particular coin trust you are interested in (I'll use ETHE for example). On their site they tell you the number of ETH per share (as of this writing, its 0.01013364 ETH/share). Multiply the ETH/share number by the current ETH market price ($3,326.50) and you get $33.7. If ETHE is less than $33.7, you are buying at a discount to the NAV. You can even factor in the 2.5% expense fee into that price and evaluate it that way. Currently ETHE is \~$32, so its a small discount, but that's how you can evaluate whether you are paying more than the underlying asset is worth. Obviously not financial advice.

Hazaisbae

Algo is 6% with no minimum req (and not technically staking since you can sell at any time). I’ve never heard of NAV though i’ll check it out

fudgeroll

What’s NAV about?

soundwave32000

MUDS -- a SPAC that was set to bring Topps public in the next couple of weeks. Got blown to hell when the news dropped in the last hour of trading on Thursday that Topps is losing their MLB license after 70 years. No way that the Eisner and the board at Topps didn't know about it...but nothing was disclosed and they even upped their guidance after earnings on Wednesday. There's a lot of retail investors that lost a shit ton over it, especially when brokers had to deny NAV redemptions at the deadline on Friday due to Mudrick Capital calling the merger off.

CryptoJamison

There used to be a premium over NAV but hope that the SEC, under Gensler, would grant a Bitcoin ETF drove it negative. Now that it’s unlikely we’ll get a spot etf product I’m hopeful they will return closer to NAV.

Major_Bandicoot_3239

That’s why I bought in my Roth. GBTC is selling at a 10-15% discount to NAV. ETHE is pretty similar.

fussyqbert

I'm not too sure about ETF's but with the Greyscale funds you want to watch the NAV premium/discount. It means Net Asset Value, and if the fund is trading at a premium (+%) or a discount (-%) to the underlying asset. https://ycharts.com/companies/GBTC/discount\_or\_premium\_to\_nav https://ycharts.com/companies/ETHE/discount\_or\_premium\_to\_nav ETF's might have something similar? Not too sure cause we don't have one available in the US afaik, so I haven't really looked into it. Sorry if that doesn't help at all XD

KashRiz

I think the market might be pricing in an ETF approval which is why it’s so low. But if it’s just greyscale that’s converted doesn’t the price immediately go up 17% to match NAV?

doug7980

PSA: the GBTC discount to NAV is now -17%. Loading up on some more in my Roth IRA

PaulP97

Yes. Plenty of funds trade at premiums or discounts relative to their NAV (net asset value), and people can take advantage and capitalize. Although it may require patience.

IndependentWarm9648

GBTC is trading at a discount to NAV. It’s the correct answer to your question. You can look up the current discount using YCharts. I think it’s approximately 12% at today’s open.

kasper747

$ETCG is at 40-45% dicount to NAV. Good luck

at-all-costs

Saved you the click Grayscale’s Bitcoin Trust and its Ethereum Trust both saw a big inflow of capital from institutions during the last quarter as the overall digital asset market briefly turned into a bear market during the early summer. According to 13F filings — a requirement for funds that manage over $100 million in assets — institutional investors collectively increased their holdings of GBTC shares by 1,125,760, or $42.7 million, and holdings of ETHE by 127,216 or $3.7 million for the filing period that ended June 30. Ark Investment management: Catherine Wood’s Ark Investment Management led the way by adding 881,842 shares of GBTC and 82,867 shares of ETHE, according to filings. Ark now owns approximately 9.5 million shares of GBTC and 721,936 shares of ETHE. As Blockworks has previously reported, Wood said in late June that Ark had “bought the dip” picking up more of Grayscale’s shares as well as expanding their position in Coinbase. Wood also believes that bitcoin has the potential to hit $500,000. Rothschild Investment: Rothschild Investment came next adding 100,000 shares of GBTC, almost tripling its exposure from approximately 40,000 last quarter. Rothschild also added 13,817 shares of ETHE. The firm has approximately $1.2 billion in assets under management. Parkwood: Filings show that Cleveland-based Parkwood also increased its crypto exposure. The firm added 32,000 more shares of GBTC bringing its total to 125,000 while also buying in to ETHE for the first time bringing its total ETHE holdings to 189,275 Institutional investors may be attracted to increasing their holdings of GBTC and ETHE because of their prolonged discount over the value of their holdings. According to YCharts, shares of GBTC are trading at a discount of 10.4% over NAV while ETHE has a discount of around 4% over its NAV. When the funds go through their periodic unlocks, the holder of shares has the opportunity to redeem the shares for bitcoin at market price which makes for the ability to obtain crypto at a significant discount should a bull market kick in. Both of Grayscale’s trusts have seen significant outflow from retail investors as regulators in Ontario, Canada have approved bitcoin and ether ETFs for the Toronto stock exchange. Retail investors tend to prefer the liquidity of an ETF versus the long lockup periods of a structured fund. While the SEC hasn’t signaled when it intends to approve the many bitcoin ETFs before it, Grayscale has previously said that the fund has a sunset on it as it intends to convert it into an ETF in the future. But until that happens institutional investors seem content to park their capital in the funds to get crypto at a significant discount.

Sandharbor

They can’t buy directly though because of regulations. Thats where grayscale is genius they figured out a way to provide access to institutions and stock market investors. My only gripe with grayscale is because it’s a trust the actual NAV and market price aren’t always on par.

bill_hilly

NAV will always have a place in my portfolio. Even though their refusal to market their peoject is probably one of the most bonehead moves imaginable, the project itself is pretty solid. It was also one of the first cryptos I bought in 2016.

J_O_N

Or what if moons are like warrants? Say for example, every 10 moons give the holder the right to buy 1 share of Reddit stock at NAV

moonbase9

Vert, ZEN, NAV

AverageJak

there isnt anything to understand. this is a discussion between traditional investor, trying to define true value (earning, NAV) against cryptonauts talking about something changing the world the simply argument is, that stuff goes up when people want to buy it. people want to buy cryptos.

AverageJak

No NAV no earnings. Its currency but trades like a stock.

eclipsed_sunrise

I just use a very simple strategy. Every week I put a small amount in my binance spot wallet as a stable coin. That stable coin then goes a flexible staking to earn whatever it can until an opportunity comes along in the market and I make a move. Even as small as 20 bucks a week can build up to large amount available. I don't go crazy and spend everything but have a set target of how much of what coin I want to buy. Worked for me so far and the latest run has taken my over all NAV up by 400%.

rocketeer8015

Better is a harsh word. I would ensure alternate revenue streams that could be used to pay rates if necessary and make sure my NAV has a nice buffer. If you have 2 million worth of RE with 1.8 million debt … could get ugly if the RE is suddenly worth 900 million and you struggle collecting rents.

arBettor

The ability to create and redeem units so the fund trades almost exactly at its net asset value (NAV) all the time. Over the past year, GBTC has traded at a premium as high as 33% and a discount as much as 21%. That's because no one can redeem units for the underlying bitcoin to arbitrage the value between the price of GBTC and its NAV. Also, a lower management fee would be nice. They could lower the fee before an ETF gets approved, but they have no incentive to do so now because no one can redeem units. Once people can redeem units they will have to lower the fee to stem outflows and encourage inflows.

galaxyuser

Nice one right there. Personally I upgrade my phone once a year cause I’m a tech enthusiast. However, I decided to spend less for my iPad upgrade by getting a mint condition used 2017 10.5” iPad Pro 512GB cellular on the cheap (it was going for just 420 USD). Very happy with my purchase. Saved a lot of money by doing this. Also decided this year, to wait it out for the prices of the S21 Ultra to drop quite a bit before buying a used 512gb silver (1040 USD). Poured about 20% of my NAV into crypto, and 15% into GME stock. Am very happy with both purchases as I got in at a very low average price.

CryptoQuestions100

Carve a conservative percentage (3,5,10%) into GBTC, which is currently at an approx 8% discount to NAV. Consult an expert on portfolio construction to ensure nice diversification and growth goals.

candreacchio

Well it's traded independently... However they have their own valuations of the investments or NAV which is publically accessible on their website -- https://invictuscapital.com/en/hyperion This creates a bit of an arbitrage opportunity when it trades below that value as they will buy and burn tokens up to that amount. Initially it was supposed to be a ico fund that focused on ICOs but yes they have transformed it more into a venture capital fund... And have done quite well.

candreacchio

Finally, a /r/cryptocurrency post that has IHF, this is my time to shine! For those who dont know, it is essentially a venture capital company. They did an ICO to raise money and invested a bunch into a fair few companies. They have just ticked over the 30M mark for their NAV, so any returns now will trigger buy and burns with the excess money. A lot of those companies have been ride-offs... but there are three main investments that have done well. [Quantfury](https://quantfury.com) - They own a 17% (IIRC) stake in this company, and have already made their money back and then some in dividends. They continue to expand year on year and are doing great. [OVEX](https://ovex.io) - They have just announced their exit from this company, which is yet to be approved. This exit is both cash as well as SRM tokens. [NOIA / Syntropy](https://syntropynet.com - They own a stake in this company, and it seems to be kicking goals left right and center, picking up interest from Microsoft as well as Oracle. IHF doesnt react the same way as the normal cryptocurrency market, as their investments are more around crypto infrastructure, rather than crypto itself.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Grayscale, an open-ended trust that holds around 3.10% of all bitcoin that will ever exist, is selling shares of GBTC shares at a discount to net asset value (NAV). The shares had to be locked up for six months before being able to hit secondary markets. With the premium, Grayscale was hoovering up bitcoin while retail investors were bidding up the price. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

znxbc

FUN, NAV, REQ and NANO at ATH circa 2017...

JonBoy82

\^This. NAV was criminally low over the past 45 days.

Admirable_Flower_469

They don’t mark things up, when the price is pretty trading at a premium it means people are investing directly into the grayscale bitcoin trust at a lower rate than people want to buy shares of the trust so I said shares become more expensive do you have to be an accredited investor to directly buy shares of the trust the shares are bought at NAV, I.e. the price of bitcoin at the time. They are unable to sell those shares for a period of like six months or a year so the price can fluctuate up and down would it trades at a premium to now the original investors that put money into it can sell their shares for a profit that is above the profit from simply owning the bitcoin is worth what a bunch of the shares get unlocked at the same time and they are wanting to sell their shares to take profits on bitcoins increased value or any other reason then there’s more selling pressure than buying pressure and the price of the GBTC trust trades at a discount to naff if an ETF opens up a lot of people may be wanting to sell their GBTC shares in which case the discount could be quite significant

Austins-Reddit

Discount/Premium to NAV = (Price / Net Asset Value) -1

simplelifestyle

People downvoting without even reading the article. Thank you OP for the explanation, I finally have a clue as to what happens with the GBTC 'premium/discount' dynamics. TL;DR: This is Bullish for Bitcoin > When Bitcoin trades at a premium, it also creates a bullish dynamic. Traders can essentially short GBTC, and buy spot BTC, and lock in whatever the premium is. This creates a lot of spot or futures buying, but very little sell pressure as the short action is on GBTC, not Bitcoin itself. > > **That’s why the recent move back towards parity (or no premium or discount, just GBTC reflecting its underlying net asset value, or NAV) is a bull signal.** It means that Bitcoin is being scooped up, and soon investors will not get a discount for buying GBTC instead. Once we cross back towards a GBTC premium, this could lead to huge inflows into the spot BTC market, and potentially push the premium even higher, so the effect gets compounded over time.

blockgraze

Definitely, if we see NAV get back to a premium here!

kulika23

This isn’t actually 100% true. You hold an asset, an ETF, which behaves like a stock but it valued based on the underlying assets which is actual BTC or whatever other crypto they buy. So your ETF holding is actually indirect ownership of actual Bitcoin. When you buy into an ETF, the liquidity is provided by a market maker. When that market maker has enough demand they transact with an ETF issuers transfer agent to create (or in opposite case, redeem) ETF shares. I’m not sure if any of the current ETFs in Canada allow for an inkind transaction (swapping the underlying asset + cash plug @ official NAV). Most market makers will create with cash and then the issuer will go invest that cash in actual Bitcoin.

Livid_Cryptographer7

It's the right strategy as long as it never goes below 31k. Most of us believe in the long-term outcome here which is significantly higher prices. But we could always be wrong and OR there could be very significant volatility to the downside along the way. I have a specific amount of my BTC that I intend to hold for the long-term - roughly 2/3 of the my position. The remaining 1/3 is to be traded slowly with the intention of growing the overall stack. I don't trade frequently - but I have thresholds in place to begin sales on the way up and thresholds to begin buys on the way down. For example, I placed a single sale of BTC at 54k on the way up. I also traded a ton of GBTC on its premium expansion/contraction throughout 2020. The money I made from doing that is what allowed me to rebuild those positions significantly at 32-39k BTC and repurchase the GBTC shares I sold for 20-40% NAV premiums at 10-15% NAV discounts. Maybe I don't always end up with such a positive outcome, but I grew my exposure to BTC/GBTC collectively by 7-8% without actually risking any "new" money which was a major psychological benefit when still feeling pretty shitty about the 50% drawdown on the position as a whole.