DAO

TumReinySeemyyt

The topic appears catchy but the content is not, GT will make a significant difference as seen in DAO created on XDAO, voting power is not based on the amount of money but the quorum reached by majority means a lot, now a regular Joe can have a say as well.

fav53

The OnionDAO is trying to bolster the security and health of The Onion Router (Tor) network but we need your help. Like crypto the health of Tor depends on individuals running nodes to handle the traffic that runs on top of the internet through the Tor stack. This also means that Tor shares the same vulnerabilities that crypto faces: if you control enough of the exit nodes you can abuse the network and strip away the anonymity and privacy that is so needed by the people who rely on Tor. The OnionDAO was created by Mentor.Eth in response to the invasion of Ukraine. When Russia knocked out the communications equipment during their unprovoked invasion the Ukrainian government relied on Tor to deliver life-saving information to citizens and military personnel alike. We currently manage 4% of the exit nodes but that's not enough, there are too few operators with only 1500 exit node relays that were active for the past 30 days. Running an OnionDAO Tor exit node is as simple as 123. 1. Sign up for one of our curated (but independently owned) VPS providers 2. Run the OnionDAO setup script and wait while it automagically configures your relay 3. Collect monthly POAPs for being amazing! All of these instructions are conveniently located on the main site or on [GitHub](https://github.com/Onion-DAO/tornode), join our Discord if you need any assistance or have any questions or recommendations on how to improve the initiative. The health of Tor relies as much on the VPS providers as it does the exit relay operators so bonus POAPs are available to anyone who also finds a suitable VPS and adds it to our curated list. The list can be found under the "Find Tor Providers" instructions in the current initiaves section of [https://oniondao.web.app](https://oniondao.web.app).

Ok_Lunch1400

>ConstitutionDAO was a crowd-funding movement to buy a first-edition copy of the U.S. constitution. PEOPLE is the token representing a share of the ConstitutionDAO. Since the bid for the document has failed, the PEOPLE token is now representing a DAO movement with historical significance. >Currently, the PEOPLE token has no explicit use cases as the founding team has chosen to close the project and burned their multi-sig that controlled the raised fund. Lmao

juunhoad

Seems that some DAO coins are pumping, weird shit.

juunhoad

Seems more DAO coins are pumping, they are so useless lmao.

SlowMotionPanic

Yeah, really. All coins were premised and half of the total supply was just gifted to Yuga Labs despite the DAO being totally independent and disconnected. Of course they happen to share the same staff, but, you know, totally above board and all that! ApeCoin holders are merely going to provide exit liquidity for the *real* investors in Yuga, which are the rich people that own a pre-mined third of all total tokens given as a gift to them before it went public. It is an amazing scam and a “metaverse” project is just enough cover for FOMO lunatics to justify their spend. They may as well go buy the shit out of Million token at that rate. They exist to provide exit liquidity and the fall is going to be brutal.

Mallardshead

This might be good for something like OpenSea yes. It's deadly for everything else though because as a security, shareholders/tokenholders have legal ownership. The easy money that DAO's, devs, and VC's are accustomed to goes away. Oversight is amplified. The space is going to lose quite a bit of talent which goes to where the money is, which I believe will be the applications and real businesses built over the LN. Then there's the issue that the facade of *decentralization* is gone. Blockchain technology really has zero value without this. They are slow, expensive, and difficult to maintain things. Centralization makes things hyper fast, cheap, and efficient.

New_Reputation

Third largest volume today on Binance is a DAO token that has no use. DAO already over and done. lmao. what a joke

GJDMIULC

* You can't transfer a security to someone that is not registered to receive securities. If you do, in order to redeem it they must register. Otherwise you can transfer them freely as they are a property, but only to persons or institutions registered. International sales have their own sets of rules. * You cannot issue coins or tokens. This requires form S-3. * Insiders/Devs/DAO's cannot sell their securities without a form S-4. More importantly, they can no longer trade on material action before the public knows, which is an enormous problem currently, especially amongst exchanges. This is a crime if you are trading securities. Go easy on me. Aren’t all three of the above inherently good? No more rugpulls, insider trading, ponzis? And existing legitimate altcoins can spend the legal fees needed to comply with securities laws and file the required S-1s, S-3s, etc?

Mallardshead

I never said ETH or alts were unusable abroad or even the US, I'm just saying they require stablecoins and robust exchange support to give them value. Bitcoin was born long before exchanges and stablecoins. So when the rest of the world uses these unregistered securities, I'm not certain they'll be worth much. And if they're not worth a whole lot, lose their liquidity, and won't pump, devs leave, DAO's weaken, security erodes, and protocols go zombie. Rat kings take things over. Everyone packs up like gypsies and goes to where the money is. Most recently that's been NFT jpegs. Before that it was DeFi middleware. Before that it was ICO vaporware. You'd assume that next it would be web3 or the meta verse, but when those terms are vaporware themselves... Eventually they all end up developing on the LN because that will be where the money is.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

eQuiFY

Anything DAO is a pump and dump for me.

Main_Sergeant_40

Check out Badger DAO

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

CrimsonFox99

Good commentary, though the numbers may be a bit off. GET per ticket has been anywhere between .02 and .11 recently, depending on the day. At the current rate (using the 519k from last quarter) of 2MM tickets per year, that would be roughly 100k tokens (at .05 per ticket) "burned" into the DAO fund annually for future staking rewards, burning, etc., which will also increase in value as the token itself does due to adoption.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

jdfarrell45

Class action lawsuit? In some decentralised court? Judgements made through DAO votes?

LIGHTLY_SEARED_ANUS

You're the first person in this sub I've seen ask this question. There's never been any real transparency, but the Tron DAO is alleged to have $10 billion in BTC, USDT, and TRX in reserve to support USDD, and the current max issuance for USDD is set at 1 billion tokens. Make what you will of that.

I_am_not_doing_this

very interesting thought, what does the DAO country have to do to separate it from a normal DAOs?

kiyyang

If we create a new country with blockchain, what would it look like? Traditional countries were built on the basis of geographic conditions. But first time in history, we can build a country on blockchain without geographic conditions. We can now use DAOs to mimic national institutions, issue currencies, elect a president and have a court. We may build a better country without geographic condition. It is hard to imagin but I think we can. If a new country could be created using DAO, what kind of country could be created? Also, I think it is good time to think about what a country is.

sibov8

It's going to be incredibly interesting for sure. I think we could see DAOs lose their bad rep and rise from the ashes once again. bitDAO has 2 billion dollars in it's treasury, this kind of money is no joke and can make moves for sure. That's my prediction tbh, NFT season is over and it's now time for DAO season.

CointestAdmin

#Polygon Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the Polygon Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > **Background - Polygon is many-sided**. There's the main Polygon PoS network that acts as a sidechain to Ethereum, and then there are so many side projects, many of which deal with Layer 2: > > - MATIC: The main Polygon token, which is present on multiple networks > - Polygon PoS: The main Ethereum side-chain network that most are familiar with. It saves checkpoint state on the Ethereum network every [256 blocks (5 minutes)](https://research.binance.com/en/projects/matic-network). > - Polygon [Hermez](https://docs.hermez.io/#start-here-for-hermez-10-documentation): ZK-rollup Ethereum Layer 2 > - Polygon [Zero](https://blog.polygon.technology/introducing-plonky2/): A fast ZK-stark/ZK-snark hybrid solution built on the Plonky2 protocol. It proofs are theoretically [100x faster than current ZK proof calculations](https://blog.polygon.technology/zkverse-polygons-zero-knowledge-strategy-explained/). > - Polygon [Miden](https://blog.polygon.technology/polygon-announces-polygon-miden-a-stark-based-ethereum-compatible-rollup/): Stark-based ZK-rollup Ethereum layer 2 > - Polygon [Nightfall](https://blog.polygon.technology/zk-proofs-protocol-polygon-nightfall-launches-on-testnet-to-provide-low-cost-private-ethereum-transaction/): Enterprise version of Polygon that uses "ZK-Optimistic Rollups" (ZK proof for privacy and optimistic-rollup for scalability) > - Polygon Avail: Standalone network or side-chain solution > - Polygon Plasma Bridge: A legacy bridge that shouldn't be used anymore. > > This post will mainly focus on the Polygon PoS network. > > ------------------ > > **CONs** > > **Still requires the Ethereum network** > > The Polygon PoS network is a side chain for Ethereum. It has its own network security, but staking is still done on the Ethereum network and requires paying expensive Ethereum smart contract gas fees. > > Similarly, going from Layer 1 Ethereum to Polygon is mainly done through the Polygon PoS bridge, which also costs expensive Ethereum gas fees. (This will gradually phase out as more CEXs provide direct onramp to the Polygon PoS network.) > > **Has plenty of competitors** > > There are just too many competitors, which dilutes adoption and liquidity for Polygon's ecosystem. While Polygon PoS isn't a direct competitor to most Layer 2 rollups and monolithic "Ethereum killers" because it is designed from ground up to be Ethereum sidechain, it does experience indirect competition. And the other Polygon Layer 2 rollup projects are direct competitors. As of Jan 2021, Polygon Hermez is only in [17th place in TLV](https://l2beat.com/). > > **Less resistant to DDoS attacks** > > Like all networks with low transaction fees, it at risk to DDoS attacks since the barrier to making transactions is low > > In early Jan 2022, [Sunflowers Farm \(SFF\) unintentionally DDoS-attacked the Polygon PoS network](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/01/06/polygon-under-accidental-attack-from-swarm-of-sunflower-farmers/) and completely congested the network because it was more profitable to play the game and spam transactions than pay network fees. Transaction fees shot up 20x. Eventually, a hacker exploited the SFF game and reduced its price to zero, and users rejoiced because it cleared the congestion. > > **Centralized governance of the PoS chain** > > Governance is currently centralized. > > The Polygon team single-handedly [increased the transaction fee from 1 to 30 Gwei in Oct 2021](https://thedefiant.io/polygon-transaction-fee-hike/) to combat spammers. They didn't communicate this with the community or ask for feedback ahead of time. > > The Polygon team also [secretly hard-forked the network](https://cryptobriefing.com/a-hacker-stole-1-6m-after-exploiting-a-polygon-bug/) by pushing out a patch 1 day after a hacker stole $1.6M from the network from the Polygon PoS genesis contract in Dec 2021. The team didn't publicize the reason for the emergency patch until over 3 weeks later. > > They have only very recently starting looking to decentralize governance through a [Polygon Ecosystem DAO](https://blog.polygon.technology/state-of-governance-decentralization/), but that could be a long time away. > > Also, the top 4 staking validators out of a total of 100 validators [own 49% of the supply](https://wallet.polygon.technology/staking/) of MATIC, but the staking validators are only used for validation and [block production](https://forum.matic.network/t/matic-system-overview-bor/126), not governance. > > **Split attention on multiple projects** > > For better or worse, Polygon is working on multiple Layer 2 solutions (Polygon PoS, Hermez, Zero, Miden, Nightfall, Avail) and constantly researching different protocols. This is a rather Google-like decision to have multiple competiting products where it becomes the Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none. Some of these protocols are really exciting, but the crypto community doesn't know about them because there are too many to focus on. > > **Tokenomics of MATIC Tokens** > > The MATIC token has limited utility. It's used for staking (validation and block production). Once the pool of staking rewards runs out of funds, all staking rewards will need to come from transaction fees, which are tiny. Currently only 75% of the coins are in circulation, and the Polygon Team has an ongoing [token release schedule](https://research.binance.com/en/projects/matic-network) for dumping tokens on the open market. > > ------------------ > > Disclaimer: I currently do not own any MATIC. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yk4/coin_inquiries_round_polygon_conarguments_november/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Polygon) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

Regret92

Harmony CEO put peoples money into “African Vegan DAO” despite the rest of his team being opposed. Loopring has very underwhelming price action. Zooming all the way out, it has been very short-lived pumps followed by steep dumps. That, and their PR sucks. Just my opinion though.

Mallardshead

PoS doesn't require a continuous use of resources. It doesn't have its own free market or economy of scale. It's the equivalent of electing a senator to a lifetime position, who is required to do no work, and can set his own earnings with colleagues. I won't even go into staking derivatives and the network effects they give dapps and power they give DAO's, and what influence this plays on validators. If you're going shitcoin, and you're going to try moding with the expectation of respect, at least get a basic understanding of what's happening inside your orgy of swaps, wraps, burns, mints, and stakes, run by dapps that do nothing but optimize token interactions to keep the orgy going. Just want you to know why you're on Vitalik's Twitter feed begging for a bailout when your shitcoin gets flushed. Grow up. https://twitter.com/HODLneverSODL/status/1467573571312570370?s=20&t=0VfzJUmbwPJXoX827mwvvA

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

stonkdocaralho

DAO's,DEX's,DID's,Dapps, decentralized lending and borrowing protocols etc. This guy that seems so worried about the needs of the African people seems to not pay much attention that this might be revolutionary to them. Even Vitalik already assumed that

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

TheGhostTooth

DO DAO

bluefootedpig

Yeah, I've bought some DAO coins that return high rates because they want early adopter and stuff like that. The rate slows over time, thus rewarding early adopters more. The other thing is some platforms have a short "bonus" or award for taking out a loan or providing liquidity. They get it from backers to again, drive people to use the website. I think the key is to know what makes the stablecoin stable. Is it a dollar reserve? or a mix bag of investments? is it over collateralization? It is paired with another coin? we have many ways of creating stablecoins, and it is important to know how your stablecoin gets it's stability.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

cdnkevin

I don’t follow that community. Do they have a DAO?

ImpeccableArchitect

Im not interested in arguing about which one is 'real bitcoin'. Both bitcoin core and bitcoin cash are 'real bitcoin' going back to satoshis genesis block, with diverging use cases. im more interested in practicalities: bitcoin core for saving, bitcoin cash for spending, and 2nd layer solutions on both which enable smart contracts, and in theory DAO, DEX, etc. BCH has smartBCH and BTC has liquid and another thing i forget the name of. EVM compatible sidechains are already here on BCH and not far away on BTC. My only criticism of the OP would be that calling it bitcoin and bitcoin cash supports the toxic maxi argument that 'there can only be one' which is clearly not true.

Suzxy

DCA into solid FA projects. Stake my long term bags. Research new gems. I already have FLUID Finance and TEAM DAO on my radar, also accumulating FLD rewards before the TGE this quarter.

sigmanaut_

paideia (DAO toolset) is planning quadratic voting and other things to reduce this, but they're solvable problems once you get the weak point out (corruptable humans)

torvaman

i used to be quite bullish on harmony ONE, and thought they had what it took to survive a bear market. recently with all their questionable DAO choices, i dont feel that same conviction. its my smallest bag by far, but i think im about willing to part ways with them. Anyone else lost confidence in them? wondering what other people think and please have more rationale than i sold because price went down

eunit250

> Balcony DAO I would expect Bitcoiners to be more interested in decentralized chains that have bitcoin fundamentals (being built without a central controlling entities), and have asset layers built into the base.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

ColossalSchism

I can definitely relate to this. I'm not as anti-NFT as some people on this sub but I do think way too much of the focus is on profile pictures and art. The real value is in asset backed projects. It's crazy how much of the focus is on projects like BAYC. You'd expect projects like Balcony DAO in real estate, BlockBar in beverages, LinksDAO acquiring a golf course, etc. would be where most of the hype is, but they're constantly overlooked.

CointestAdmin

#Polygon Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the Polygon Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > **Background - Polygon is many-sided**. There's the main Polygon PoS network that acts as a sidechain to Ethereum, and then there are so many side projects, many of which deal with Layer 2: > > - MATIC: The main Polygon token, which is present on multiple networks > - Polygon PoS: The main Ethereum side-chain network that most are familiar with. It saves checkpoint state on the Ethereum network every [256 blocks (5 minutes)](https://research.binance.com/en/projects/matic-network). > - Polygon [Hermez](https://docs.hermez.io/#start-here-for-hermez-10-documentation): ZK-rollup Ethereum Layer 2 > - Polygon [Zero](https://blog.polygon.technology/introducing-plonky2/): A fast ZK-stark/ZK-snark hybrid solution built on the Plonky2 protocol. It proofs are theoretically [100x faster than current ZK proof calculations](https://blog.polygon.technology/zkverse-polygons-zero-knowledge-strategy-explained/). > - Polygon [Miden](https://blog.polygon.technology/polygon-announces-polygon-miden-a-stark-based-ethereum-compatible-rollup/): Stark-based ZK-rollup Ethereum layer 2 > - Polygon [Nightfall](https://blog.polygon.technology/zk-proofs-protocol-polygon-nightfall-launches-on-testnet-to-provide-low-cost-private-ethereum-transaction/): Enterprise version of Polygon that uses "ZK-Optimistic Rollups" (ZK proof for privacy and optimistic-rollup for scalability) > - Polygon Avail: Standalone network or side-chain solution > - Polygon Plasma Bridge: A legacy bridge that shouldn't be used anymore. > > This post will mainly focus on the Polygon PoS network. > > ------------------ > > **CONs** > > **Still requires the Ethereum network** > > The Polygon PoS network is a side chain for Ethereum. It has its own network security, but staking is still done on the Ethereum network and requires paying expensive Ethereum smart contract gas fees. > > Similarly, going from Layer 1 Ethereum to Polygon is mainly done through the Polygon PoS bridge, which also costs expensive Ethereum gas fees. (This will gradually phase out as more CEXs provide direct onramp to the Polygon PoS network.) > > **Has plenty of competitors** > > There are just too many competitors, which dilutes adoption and liquidity for Polygon's ecosystem. While Polygon PoS isn't a direct competitor to most Layer 2 rollups and monolithic "Ethereum killers" because it is designed from ground up to be Ethereum sidechain, it does experience indirect competition. And the other Polygon Layer 2 rollup projects are direct competitors. As of Jan 2021, Polygon Hermez is only in [17th place in TLV](https://l2beat.com/). > > **Less resistant to DDoS attacks** > > Like all networks with low transaction fees, it at risk to DDoS attacks since the barrier to making transactions is low > > In early Jan 2022, [Sunflowers Farm \(SFF\) unintentionally DDoS-attacked the Polygon PoS network](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/01/06/polygon-under-accidental-attack-from-swarm-of-sunflower-farmers/) and completely congested the network because it was more profitable to play the game and spam transactions than pay network fees. Transaction fees shot up 20x. Eventually, a hacker exploited the SFF game and reduced its price to zero, and users rejoiced because it cleared the congestion. > > **Centralized governance of the PoS chain** > > Governance is currently centralized. > > The Polygon team single-handedly [increased the transaction fee from 1 to 30 Gwei in Oct 2021](https://thedefiant.io/polygon-transaction-fee-hike/) to combat spammers. They didn't communicate this with the community or ask for feedback ahead of time. > > The Polygon team also [secretly hard-forked the network](https://cryptobriefing.com/a-hacker-stole-1-6m-after-exploiting-a-polygon-bug/) by pushing out a patch 1 day after a hacker stole $1.6M from the network from the Polygon PoS genesis contract in Dec 2021. The team didn't publicize the reason for the emergency patch until over 3 weeks later. > > They have only very recently starting looking to decentralize governance through a [Polygon Ecosystem DAO](https://blog.polygon.technology/state-of-governance-decentralization/), but that could be a long time away. > > Also, the top 4 staking validators out of a total of 100 validators [own 49% of the supply](https://wallet.polygon.technology/staking/) of MATIC, but the staking validators are only used for validation and [block production](https://forum.matic.network/t/matic-system-overview-bor/126), not governance. > > **Split attention on multiple projects** > > For better or worse, Polygon is working on multiple Layer 2 solutions (Polygon PoS, Hermez, Zero, Miden, Nightfall, Avail) and constantly researching different protocols. This is a rather Google-like decision to have multiple competiting products where it becomes the Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none. Some of these protocols are really exciting, but the crypto community doesn't know about them because there are too many to focus on. > > **Tokenomics of MATIC Tokens** > > The MATIC token has limited utility. It's used for staking (validation and block production). Once the pool of staking rewards runs out of funds, all staking rewards will need to come from transaction fees, which are tiny. Currently only 75% of the coins are in circulation, and the Polygon Team has an ongoing [token release schedule](https://research.binance.com/en/projects/matic-network) for dumping tokens on the open market. > > ------------------ > > Disclaimer: I currently do not own any MATIC. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yk4/coin_inquiries_round_polygon_conarguments_november/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Polygon) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

UnamazingHero

I don't think this is useless. I don't think it's going to be successful, but this seems like a better crypto use case than many others. Platforms with NFTs built into your digital identity is what most NFT proponents think the future of internet usage will be, particularly once VR becomes more prominent. The use cases I think make the most sense are this type of platform, NFT ticketing platforms like YellowHeart, and NFT real estate projects like Lofty or Balcony DAO.

zacht0626

can't wait for PUMP to finish up presale and start buying projects that the DAO can invest in!! Such a cool concept, I love the idea of on-chain voting.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

agMu9

\- Monero (strong privacy, anti-mining pools, anonumous core team) \- Dash (privacy, DAO)

juunhoad

Of course these DAO decisions are "flawed", well not flawed, they are unfair. Whales just dictate what happens to the chain. Small holders votes don't mean anything.

Loose_Screw_

You can't really conflate the block-size wars with the DAO hack and the Terra meltdown. This current suggestion is eerily similar to what ethereum did though.

Loose_Screw_

This is the DAO hack all over again. Maybe history does repeat after all.

Wisgood

It's only a matter of time before people begin to realize the value of DAOs though, and it makes sense that your PFP should be a token that gives you your vote, rather than just giving every decision to whales by coin voting. NFTs have been branded as frivolous jpegs but they're really quite valuable when functioning as a seat on the board of a company, and we'll be seeing real world products of them soon. There's even a DAO making a feature film about The DAO, and they got Ridley Scott on board, so it's not like Ethereum isn't using them properly. It's moreso the hyper pump propaganda that needs to settle before people realize what the tech actually does.

crystalpeaks25

cant believe the DAO approve of this

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

gambler018

What was the ETH DAO hack?

stock-prince-WK

Lmao check out METIS DAO. Do some research. METIS is Ethereum.

MostlyPseudonymous

Classic. Someone says they'd never bet against ETH but oh by the way some random DAO coin. Oof!

stock-prince-WK

Algorand is cool but I will never bet against Ethereum. So I only invest in Layer 2s. METIS DAO has the brightest future imo and its my only true buy and hold long term bag.

pyr0phelia

If I have Crypto sitting in cold storage how safe is it? The BTC, ETH, & XMR, I have on my hardware wallet cannot be stolen or transferred unless I move it. We saw in 2017 what it would look like to recover assets on a decentralized chain when Ethereum hard forked after the DAO hack. It took a global effort and every mining community on the network to agree to roll back the hack. Those conditions have not changed and because of the explosive adoption since then it is unlikely a similar effort could be duplicated. SOL doesn’t operate that way. They own the chain, the IP, and for all intents and purposes the keys. If a GOV authority went to then with a warrant and demanded my SOL they would be forced to hand it over(same with exchanges; see Canada v freedom convoy) and there’s nothing I can do about. But that’s not the point. The point is if the GOV can compel the organization to hand over my SOL through legitimate methods, that means bad actors can do it through illegitimate methods. SOL may consider themselves a blockchain like Bitcoin and Ethereum but they don’t have anywhere near the same safety measures a decentralized blockchain has.

CointestAdmin

#Polygon Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by Maleficent_Plankton which won 1st place in the Polygon Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > **Background - Polygon is many-sided**. There's the main Polygon PoS network that acts as a sidechain to Ethereum, and then there are so many side projects, many of which deal with Layer 2: > > - MATIC: The main Polygon token, which is present on multiple networks > - Polygon PoS: The main Ethereum side-chain network that most are familiar with. It saves checkpoint state on the Ethereum network every [256 blocks (5 minutes)](https://research.binance.com/en/projects/matic-network). > - Polygon [Hermez](https://docs.hermez.io/#start-here-for-hermez-10-documentation): ZK-rollup Ethereum Layer 2 > - Polygon [Zero](https://blog.polygon.technology/introducing-plonky2/): A fast ZK-stark/ZK-snark hybrid solution built on the Plonky2 protocol. It proofs are theoretically [100x faster than current ZK proof calculations](https://blog.polygon.technology/zkverse-polygons-zero-knowledge-strategy-explained/). > - Polygon [Miden](https://blog.polygon.technology/polygon-announces-polygon-miden-a-stark-based-ethereum-compatible-rollup/): Stark-based ZK-rollup Ethereum layer 2 > - Polygon [Nightfall](https://blog.polygon.technology/zk-proofs-protocol-polygon-nightfall-launches-on-testnet-to-provide-low-cost-private-ethereum-transaction/): Enterprise version of Polygon that uses "ZK-Optimistic Rollups" (ZK proof for privacy and optimistic-rollup for scalability) > - Polygon Avail: Standalone network or side-chain solution > - Polygon Plasma Bridge: A legacy bridge that shouldn't be used anymore. > > This post will mainly focus on the Polygon PoS network. > > ------------------ > > **CONs** > > **Still requires the Ethereum network** > > The Polygon PoS network is a side chain for Ethereum. It has its own network security, but staking is still done on the Ethereum network and requires paying expensive Ethereum smart contract gas fees. > > Similarly, going from Layer 1 Ethereum to Polygon is mainly done through the Polygon PoS bridge, which also costs expensive Ethereum gas fees. (This will gradually phase out as more CEXs provide direct onramp to the Polygon PoS network.) > > **Has plenty of competitors** > > There are just too many competitors, which dilutes adoption and liquidity for Polygon's ecosystem. While Polygon PoS isn't a direct competitor to most Layer 2 rollups and monolithic "Ethereum killers" because it is designed from ground up to be Ethereum sidechain, it does experience indirect competition. And the other Polygon Layer 2 rollup projects are direct competitors. As of Jan 2021, Polygon Hermez is only in [17th place in TLV](https://l2beat.com/). > > **Less resistant to DDoS attacks** > > Like all networks with low transaction fees, it at risk to DDoS attacks since the barrier to making transactions is low > > In early Jan 2022, [Sunflowers Farm \(SFF\) unintentionally DDoS-attacked the Polygon PoS network](https://www.coindesk.com/tech/2022/01/06/polygon-under-accidental-attack-from-swarm-of-sunflower-farmers/) and completely congested the network because it was more profitable to play the game and spam transactions than pay network fees. Transaction fees shot up 20x. Eventually, a hacker exploited the SFF game and reduced its price to zero, and users rejoiced because it cleared the congestion. > > **Centralized governance of the PoS chain** > > Governance is currently centralized. > > The Polygon team single-handedly [increased the transaction fee from 1 to 30 Gwei in Oct 2021](https://thedefiant.io/polygon-transaction-fee-hike/) to combat spammers. They didn't communicate this with the community or ask for feedback ahead of time. > > The Polygon team also [secretly hard-forked the network](https://cryptobriefing.com/a-hacker-stole-1-6m-after-exploiting-a-polygon-bug/) by pushing out a patch 1 day after a hacker stole $1.6M from the network from the Polygon PoS genesis contract in Dec 2021. The team didn't publicize the reason for the emergency patch until over 3 weeks later. > > They have only very recently starting looking to decentralize governance through a [Polygon Ecosystem DAO](https://blog.polygon.technology/state-of-governance-decentralization/), but that could be a long time away. > > Also, the top 4 staking validators out of a total of 100 validators [own 49% of the supply](https://wallet.polygon.technology/staking/) of MATIC, but the staking validators are only used for validation and [block production](https://forum.matic.network/t/matic-system-overview-bor/126), not governance. > > **Split attention on multiple projects** > > For better or worse, Polygon is working on multiple Layer 2 solutions (Polygon PoS, Hermez, Zero, Miden, Nightfall, Avail) and constantly researching different protocols. This is a rather Google-like decision to have multiple competiting products where it becomes the Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none. Some of these protocols are really exciting, but the crypto community doesn't know about them because there are too many to focus on. > > **Tokenomics of MATIC Tokens** > > The MATIC token has limited utility. It's used for staking (validation and block production). Once the pool of staking rewards runs out of funds, all staking rewards will need to come from transaction fees, which are tiny. Currently only 75% of the coins are in circulation, and the Polygon Team has an ongoing [token release schedule](https://research.binance.com/en/projects/matic-network) for dumping tokens on the open market. > > ------------------ > > Disclaimer: I currently do not own any MATIC. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yk4/coin_inquiries_round_polygon_conarguments_november/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Polygon) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. Interoperability may be crypto's future - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but as Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/?context=10000). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20-30 for a token transfer or $60-100 for a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper on this and quantifies how "[people are entirely “locked out” of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained these concerns, suggesting that ETH could become cannibalized by competitors and L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with many of the points in [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://newsprees.com/vitalik-buterin-speaks-to-argentina-decentralization-goes-far-beyond-money/). The community looks to him for key deliverables like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as a true open source project](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, absent 'leader' like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/), which takes us to... > > - **Architecture**: > > - Incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on key, dominant infrastructure. Client and hosting diversity thus remains an issue: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [~82% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): [64.8% of validators use Prysm](https://twitter.com/sproulM_/status/1451065804183662592). > > - [Centralization of infrastructure has been an ongoing concern for the community](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c) and I think clients and consensus infrastructure need to further diversify lest they remain points of failure. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/umsqe8/monthly_optimists_discussion_may_2022/).

Jaha_jaha1

Yeah ETH literally forked because the devs got mad that someone stole from their DAO fund. We’re at almost 2k validators and that is very decentralized compared to many other projects. I don’t get the whole narrative that it is a bad coin. I use it all the time. Who in eth can say that? They can’t even build a dapp without running out of money in fees. People who buy eth have probably never even used the clunky EVM system. Solana is slick, fast and cheap.

Jaha_jaha1

Etherium imposed an invalid transaction state on the blockchain when the DAO theft happened. All transactions in ethereum are NOT immutable and if the community of devs feels like they need to invalidate a transaction, they can. The devs decided that theft was enough to invalidate a transaction. What’s to stop them from shutting down a transaction of stolen NFTs or if a whale sends their funds to the wrong wallet? Eth had an undo button. Period.

Jaha_jaha1

That’s what Etherium basically did when someone stole ETH from the DAO lol they basically forked and “undid” the theft that happened

immibis

It's like ETH/ETC except if there wasn't a timelock on the DAO funds, and the creators of ETH owned most of the DAO, and they reversed a whole bunch of actual spending transactions, destroying all possible trust in the new chain.