MMT

riscten

OP's point is interesting for exactly this reason. When fiat was created, they built in inflation to incentivize spending. Holding makes little sense because your money loses value. That's Keynesian/MMT economics in a nutshell, and something Bitcoin goes the complete opposite way. Bitcoin, by being deflationary, discourages spending. But while it offers no financial incentives to transact, it does offer functional incentives, like allowing for near-instant, decentralized, global payments, as well as microtransactions on LN.

ZeusFinder

MMT my friends

The_Realist01

Aggregate demand will be equal to now. Quantity down, cost up, equal spend. As I mentioned. Impact to the entire economy is neutral, or deflationary. Also, everyone until Clinton knew what inflation meant definitionally. It changed thereafter, more due to the media, but also idiotic people parroting MMT.

Ulysses_Zopol

Well, money is a fear-laden topic, and like any fear-laden topic full of dogma and belief. The idea that MMT and central banking, especially the American form, can be considered a form of theft is so antithetical to the concept of a caring, benevolent political system. Such contrarian thought breeds resistance. And that is just the economic, monetary theory side of things. Now add to that the fear complex computer science, cryptography, large numbers can create. Add the narratives of drug money, guns, killers, child pron, hacked exchanges, lifelong prison terms, the real danger of losing your wealth to Russian hackers. Of being solely responsible for your money, using incomprehensibly complex technology. And now look at volatility. The fear that 100K can turn into 80K within a few weeks, as we have seen over the last few months. All this adds up to tremendous resistance.

ChaoticDad21

Dude does NOT come in peace. He’s a Bitcoiner AND even an MMT guy. What a disgrace to the metals community he is.

AppropriateOwl1370

The financial illiteracy in a sub that is mainly concerning itself with digital currency is baffling. Its a fucking state, not your piggy bank of pocket change from blowing strangers behind a McDonald's. They print their own fucking money. They are printing 500 billion this month to spend on pew pew. As if internet mo ey is a fucking concern for them. See Steven Hail: “proponents of modern monetary theory… claim [that a] government need not balance its budget and are instead calling for the government to balance the economy, which they argue is a different thing entirely” (Hail, 2017). Paul Krugman suggesting that what MMT argues is that if a state has a fiat currency and only borrows in its own currency then they do not face debt constraints but do instead suffer an inflation constraint that they have to manage through the control of aggregate demand. As he put is “the budget deficit should be big enough to produce full employment, but not so big as to produce inflationary overheating” (Krugman, 2019). In summary, MMT might be suggested to describe a process for the management of aggregate demand within an economy with its own fiat currency. Several MMT authors (Mitchell et al., 2019; Wray, 2012) make clear, the relationship between modern monetary theory and tax is intimate in a number of areas. For example, it is argued that tax drives the value of money (Wray, 2012, p. 47). This is because it is the promise that a government makes to only accept the currency it creates in settlement of the tax liabilities that it issues that in turn creates demand for its currency. Currency itself consequently has a fiscal nature and underpinning.

Sundance37

All I have ever wanted was the government to be forced away from MMT. If we have sound money in our entire society, that is a good thing.

noticer626

MMT is what is taught because that's what the government wants to be taught. Public universities get their money from the govt so they obey.

BtcOverBchs

Given that MMT is the prevailing practice, yes of course Econ and Finance majors specialize in learning about MMT. Of course Austrian Econ is taught, but that’s not the world we live in.

colinallbets

It sounds like your coworker takes the MMT mindset to heart, and isn't interested in understanding the bitcoin protocol's value. There are likely many topics you'd have to get concensus on, first, before explaining value of btc in a way they would internalize. You're better off telling your coworker to hfsp and moving on with you life.

OldAbility6761

Because these idiots have no idea what MMT is, they are too stupid to realize a block chain would destroy the economy because of how our monetary system is structured

NotoASlANHate

This is Insanity. The value of Bitcoin will go down by 90% if the US govt decides to halve its debt. Go learn some MMT please. The REASON bitcoin is 100k is BECAUSE of the large US national debt. hahaha, usa is going to ruin its currency if it does something stupid like this.

BigDeezerrr

I think its all the new redditors joining for the bull run. Been sering a lot of "inflation is good and necessary" and other MMT talking points that OGs here would never spout.

_FreeThinker

Most probably, we do not want a finite money supply, especially in light of Modern Monetary Theory (MMT). Bitcoin is an asset class and an exchange medium. It does not have to replace USD or any other governmental currency. A sovereign currency is required by the government to fund services and programs that no private institution will tackle, these are especially economic fields where economic externalities are most pronounced. Bitcoin will not replace USD, it probably should not. Bitcoin will replace gold, and maybe some treasury. Bitcoin can also replace inefficient money movers like ACH transfer (most banks), credit card companies, and remittance companies, etc. I think to imagine that a deflationary currency should be what a government should rely on to run a country is naive and economically & politically uneducated.

therealcpain

Then supply your argument. Step outside the Keynesian / MMT theories when you do so.

FollowAstacio

Thanks. I’ll have to look into blockchain technology more bc I was under the impression it was new. Thanks for broadening my horizons. I would say it has a use case now though (and probably back then too). Money. I agree it has flaws, but the non-fungibility and finite supply make it a better money than our fiat for citizens. Fiat is better for Keynesian and MMT governments (or ig all governments if you think about it), but it comes at the cost of hurting the economy itself and thus the vast majority of the population. The decentralized nature is probably what makes it possible now whereas in the 80’s who really has a node? Now EVERYONE has a node and so now we can actually use the blockchain for creating digital assets without risk of censorship. I have no problems with laws in general, but as an economist, you can probably agree that it’s important for civil people to not have their assets seized by tyranny.

FollowAstacio

Thanks. I’ll have to look into blockchain technology more bc I was under the impression it was new. Thanks for broadening my horizons. I would say it has a use case now though (and probably back then too). Money. I agree it has flaws, but the non-fungibility and finite supply make it a better money than our fiat for citizens. Fiat is better for Keynesian and MMT governments (or ig all governments if you think about it), but it comes at the cost of hurting the economy itself and thus the vast majority of the population. The decentralized nature is probably what makes it possible now whereas in the 80’s who really has a node? Now EVERYONE has a node and so now we can actually use the blockchain for creating digital assets without risk of censorship. I have no problems with laws in general, but as an economist, you can probably agree that it’s important for civil people to not have their assets seized by tyranny.

LinusVPelt

The GFC was a disaster caused by unethical behavior by both speculators and the authorities. Precisely the main cause of all financial speculation and crisis affecting western economies in the past 25 years has been Alan Greenspan's introduction of the MMT under the principles of 'lower for longer' and 'no more recessions', conducts which have been carried on by the Fed until now and created the largest wealth inequality gap ever seen since the public stock market exists, and a zombie economy kept on life support by a debt which is more and more unsustainable every year, and will eventually have catastrophic consequences. All the above has nothing to do with a political party or specific candidates. Under Trump's administration the market was artificially pumped not less than with his follower and predecessor. The only thing that the SEC really did on cryptocurrencies so far has been to favour the big banks and the legacy financial system as much as possible. Just as an example, the approval of the BTC ETFs has been one of the most blatant displays of corruption and unfairness by government officials. Gensel is a disgrace and in a fair world would be prosecuted for his conduct.

DyehuthyTV

There is something call it: **MARKET SEASONALITY** ([*Annual Returns & Quarterly Returns*](https://www.coinglass.com/today)*, you will find Seasonal Patterns on every* [*Asset Classes*](https://www.fool.com/terms/a/asset-classes/)) Bitcoin has the most Clearest Seasonality based on Fundamentals (*macro and economics cycles*) that any other Asset Class (market) can have. \- Bitcoin is one of the Assets that have the higher Correlation with [FIAT Global Money Supply (M2)](https://en.macromicro.me/spotlights/173/bitcoin-vs-major-central-banks-m2-supply) \- MACRO (Monetary Policy) \- Bitcoin also have a High Correlation with [Business Cycle (US Manufacturing Index, ISM-PMI)](https://x.com/bravosresearch/status/1799089746683043973) To understand the Correlation between Monetary Policy (*Money Printing, M2*) and Business Cycle (*"Economic Growth Idea"*), you must understand the Current Monetary System: [MMT Economics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/13qdi0x/the_fiat_money_was_design_for_debasement_your/) \+ [More Info](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1h5tdzu/comment/m08qtcl/) But unlike other Asset Classes, **Bitcoin has a Perfectly Inelastic Price (**[*An In-Depth Look at the Economics of Bitcoin - CME Group*](https://www.cmegroup.com/education/featured-reports/an-in-depth-look-at-the-economics-of-bitcoin.html)), this makes Bitcoin's Price discovery completely predictable with respect to the economic cycle, here you have to add the **Currency Debasement** (*Cumulative Inflation,* [*Purchasing Power of the U.S. Dollar Over Time Chart*](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/purchasing-power-of-the-u-s-dollar-over-time/)) Study Bitcoin, yes, but to understand Bitcoin people must understand what we have now as "money" (*FIAT Money*) and how this and how this “money” shapes what we understand as economy :D Cya, mate!

DyehuthyTV

First of all, it is necessary to understand that there are 2 types of money in the “modern economy” ([MMT Economics](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/13qdi0x/the_fiat_money_was_design_for_debasement_your/)) \- **Broad Money** (*FIAT Money, Inflationary, Circulating Money Supply*) \- **Monetary Base** (*Banks Reserves "Notes or IOUs" FED Balance, what backs Broad Money. Gold Standard was a form of Reserves that was abolish in 1971*) How Fiat Money Works: [Banks, QE, and Money-Printing, Fractional Reserves Banking - Lyn Alden](https://www.lynalden.com/money-printing/) Expansionary Money and Circulation Credit: [Fixed Supply Money Does Not Lead to Economic Collapse - Swan Bitcoin](https://www.swanbitcoin.com/economics/why-a-fixed-supply-money-does-not-lead-to-economic-catastrophe/) the Economic-Monetary believe behind the idea of "Economic Growth" ([How The Economic Machine Works by Ray Dalio](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHe0bXAIuk0) & [Nayib Bukele. How the U.S. Government is financed](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyG9rzYUtvo)) **You must have to understand this essential part of how what we call money works today (*****FIAT money, currencies*****). For Understand Bitcoin, you must understand the current Monetary System.** Bitcoin is a Monetary Base protocol, i.e., the Reserves and Savings that the Legacy System has denied us for decades through a “vampiric” (*acumulative inflation, diluting your purshasing power, making you poor*) system. Cuz without the ability to save money (wealth) you become a slave to the system, not a “participant”. The current monetary system (FIAT Standard) is designed to increasingly undermine your ability to have savings, but Bitcoin Fix this, given you back your freedom by not diluting your Energy (*work or contribution to society*). Bitcoin is a Conservative Monetary Protocol, it respects the Conservation of Energy. **But the most important thing here, is that you must continue study and learn everyday! To understand “what money is” or "what it should be".** Cya!

Over-Quarter7110

Ive been seeing a decent amount of "some inflation is good and necessary" and other MMT falsisms being parroted. I wonder if its just due to all the new users around here now that price is up.

IndubitablePrognosis

Sorry, I think you're in a bit of a conspiracy hole there. "Inflation" can be conflated with "inflation of the money supply" but that's not what it is. It's readily disproven because you have other causes of prices going up, and you can have an increase in the money supply without prices going up. It's not to say the money supply and government spending isn't a huge problem. There also IS some crazy "economics" being taught in the world (MMT). And I DO have misgivings about inflation stats.  But money supply is money supply. "Inflation" is prices going up. 

Live-Wrap-4592

It was a compelling argument but very clearly flawed. MMT is, sadly, dead. Even in america

uclatommy

Price action on BTC seems to say "inflation is coming!" So that means we all love MMT, right? Government can print unlimited money to inflate away deficits and debt causing BTC number go up. With BTC strategic reserve coming, it seems US Govt is now incentivized to inflate its currency. In response foreign governments will not want to hold US debt and will themselves try to acquire BTC.

syrupmania5

He's full MMT I feel.  The dems cater to that crowd slightly but Trump is fully not even pretending to care about hard money.

BigDeezerrr

I felt like there's been a strange crowd here lately. Been seeing more "some inflation is good", pro-BTC taxes, and general MMT sympathy thats goes against the point of BTC.

onesculpt

\> "So what? At-will printing is the only problem with printing. Fixed, algorithmic, locked-in supply proportional to staking is not a problem, it's **exactly** the same as mining in its effect. * People with lots of ETH get more ETH, directly proportional to their starting wealth * People with lots of BTC can buy a lot of ASICs and get more BTC, directly proportional to their starting wealth" Proof of Work vs. Proof of Stake: Proof of Work (PoW) is about real hard work. Only through real effort and energy consumption can the network be secured. Hard work creates real value. Proof of Stake (PoS), on the other hand, is more like the fiat system, where just having wealth creates more wealth, leading to risks of centralization. If you’ve really studied economic theories like Modern Monetary Theory (MMT), Keynesian economics, and Austrian economics, you’d understand that real money needs to be created through hard work. Money isn’t the same as currency. Bitcoin, backed by PoW, represents that hard work, which is why it has real value. \> "No it's literally 100% inflexible. Set in stone. No clue what you're talking about. Nobody can change the algorithm, any more than bitcoin. (All they can do is make a whole new coin and try to convicne everyone to move to it, which can also happen with bitcoin)" Policy Changes and Scarcity: Ethereum has changed its monetary policy multiple times, like when it forked after the DAO hack. This shows it’s not truly set in stone. Bitcoin, however, can’t be changed without massive agreement from everyone: miners, nodes, and users. That’s what makes Bitcoin stable and predictable. \>As shown above with the two bullet points, ethereum protects your value exactly equally as well. So nope. Sure, staking might look like an efficient way to earn more ETH, but think about where that ETH comes from. It’s created out of thin air, just like fiat money. Even if the comparison isn’t perfect, the idea remains: without real work or energy behind it, the currency can become inflationary. Hard money, like Bitcoin, requires hard work to create, and history has shown that’s what gives money real value. \>Ethereum has been worth billions for ages now under PoS, when was it attacked? Why is it not being attacked? If it's "low security"? Do hackers/attackers just not like free money? Or...? By the way, Ethereum hasn’t been around “for ages.” It was launched in 2015 (or 2016 if you count when it really took off), and it only moved to Proof of Stake in 2022. Since then, it hasn’t reached its all-time high again. Why? Because PoS can lead to inflation, similar to fiat money. Ethereum has faced many forks and changes, and its security is still not on the same level as Bitcoin’s. Bitcoin’s network is the most dominant and secure, backed by the power of PoW. What does Ethereum offer besides Smart Contracts, NFTs, and PoS? Is it really a good store of value compared to Bitcoin? \>No, the VALUE is just as scarce. Bitcoin you hold 1 BTC, and later you still hold an equally scarce value of 1 BTC Ethereum you hold and stake 1 ETH, and later the total number has doubled, and you have 2 ETH, each of which has half the true value (purchasing power) as before. 0.5+0.5 = 1, the same value as you had before, you hold the same portion / scarcity of ethereum. Just as guaranteed and stable as BTC. If you check the ETH/BTC chart on CoinMarketCap, you’ll see that ETH has consistently lost value compared to Bitcoin. There are reasons for that. Bitcoin’s dominance as a store of value is unmatched, and ETH’s inflationary tendencies under PoS just can’t compete. \>I have, which is how I know ethereum is superior in literally every way. I used to think the same way back in 2021, and I understand why it felt convincing at the time. But after diving deeper into economic theories and really understanding the difference between hard money and fiat-like systems, I realized why Bitcoin’s approach is fundamentally different. Maybe it’s worth revisiting some of those concepts with a fresh perspective.

doives

It’s also easy to shrug off for the treasury and The FED. Modern monetary theory states that if you’re a money printing nation (a government that issues its own currency), you can keep printing and spending, as long as you keep inflation under control. Lots of people at the top subscribe to MMT. I honestly believe that those in charge do not care about our debt. They care more about the USD status as a global exchange currency/the petrodollar. Because as long as the status quo holds, the USD will (in theory) be fine. Becoming a stablecoin standard is probably the future/modern version of the above.

aprx4

MMT is literally copium in macroeconomy. They can't pay the debt but they think it's still "fine" as long as they can pay the interest (by printing more money). With MMT government don't need to rely on taxes for public spending but they're still gonna tax you more "to control inflation". In US, progressive figures like Warren and Sanders love the idea simply because it means they can print and spend without restraints.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Yuzo Kano, CEO of Bitflyer, criticized Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) on X, warning it could lead to runaway inflation and loss of faith in money, particularly affecting Japan's struggling economy. Kano argues that MMT's approach of excessive money printing to boost the economy could result in economic chaos. He cautions that if inflation rises sharply, it may become uncontrollable, exacerbating Japan's economic challenges. Kano's comments highlight concerns over fiscal policies and the potential risks of MMT in Japan. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

757packerfan

Yes, we have read MMT and rejected it.

no_spoon

Has no one read MMT here? The debt doesn’t matter if inflation is in check. The US isn’t borrowing this money. They are simply issuing treasury bonds as a means of keeping deficit spending flowing through the US dollar. Yes we need to curb the deficit but as long as unemployment and inflation are in check, and as long as we keep buying stuff from China, the deficit is just a reflection of US dollar strength and foreign investment.

sevseg_decoder

I’m sure someone used it in a book you have but the word was introduced in the 15th century and was common a long time before the 1980s. We were definitely started on the MMT model by then. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billion#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Oxford%20English,12)%2C%20and%20so%20on.

jt7855

We both are aware of the Fed’s loose monetary policies led to inflationary pressures. We both know the Fed raised rates and popped the stock market bubble which led to the 1929 crash. But you blame the Great Depression solely on the money stock aka money supply. You claim the money stock is what drives an economy. That is obviously incorrect. Money is a medium of exchange and as long as the market participants accept this medium for goods and services and are able to settle transactions, then there is enough money. So the real problem came from something else. That something was the lack of savings. The lack of savings can be naturally attributed to errant policies by the federal government. Those policies attempting to centralize the control the economy and eliminate/steal people’s savings. Something we’ve already discussed. Gold confiscation and banning was definitely an FDR favorite. Now, you want to claim that gold standard forced every other nation to adjust because the US adjusted rates. Well, we live in a fiat world now and there is little change in how Central Banks adjust rates. The Gold standard is not to blame for bumbling monetary practices. They meet at Jackson-hole WY. They still try and coordinate interest rates. Blaming the gold standard is a silly and shallow argument. Naturally you want to attack economist that you disagree with because it doesn’t suit your agenda. I can’t blame you there. I don’t respect the socialist Keynesians or MMT crowd. I know they are wrong. BTW use your own arguments and not google. I am not going to give you an F for using someone else’s words. But that isn’t cool.

Ok-Tooth-4994

1. Yes MMT. 2. The value of bitcoin will need to be astronomical to actually fuck up the feds plans. I read the paper. Same could be said for any commodity. It’s a hit piece on Bitcoin more than anything. 3. It’s not debt. It’s fake. That’s the point. It never needs to be paid. The countries can come ask for it if they want I guess. But then what? Having cheap dollars is beneficial to our global economy. The same as having cheap Chinese goods is beneficial. Nation states that print their own money are in a different category when it comes to debt to gdp. That’s the main point.

JiuJitsuBoxer

Now you are talking MMT, to which I never got the answer to the following question. What happens when people stop using the currency that government prints, and uses something like bitcoin? The FED recently did a paper on this a few days ago and concluded that government will be forced to balance budgets. [https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/working-papers/unique-implementation-of-permanent-primary-deficits](https://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/working-papers/unique-implementation-of-permanent-primary-deficits) \>What future generations? If debt is not paid off, but continued to be racked up to pay off old debt, it still needs servicing. US interest payments currently are more than US military costs (!). This money has to come from taxation, or... MORE debt, which devalues the currency even more. \>When in the history of US deficit has any future generation ever paid the price for their grandparents debts? Never. Cause that’s not how it works. They print the money. It hasn't happened because they kick the can down the road. Get into more debt to pay off old debt. The only time this hasn't happened was with Volcker, which was basically economic chemotherapy. It hurt everything, including inflation. But when Volcker did that, debt/gdp wasn't at this level, which makes it impossible to do again. Why do you think national debt is measured against GDP? And what has historically happened with nation states where debt/gdp ratio was above 120%?

JashBeep

My understanding is that this is from a pro-MMT "documentary". This particular edit, I think he is answering a different question in the second half. There's a longer version that has a lead in from the narrator and the whole thing just stinks. No doubt the guy stuffed up badly but the documentary seems to have edited it to make it look even worse.

syrupmania5

Maybe MMT is correct, and by establishing unlimited printing and no taxes you remove the illusion?

kingbee0102

COVID gave them the MMT trial run they were wanting so bad. It absolutely failed on a massive scale

SpanishPikeRushGG

I'm sure MMT people could find a way.

Junior_Client3022

Oh brother. It's been corporate greed this whole time now just this once it's some kinda dance around by-product of corporate greed because of inflation but without acknowledging the fact that it was all consequences of inflation. Inflation is a cause. Not an effect. Inflation is the increase in a base supply of currency. Inflation is not "rising prices"  Rising prices are just one effect of inflation... diluted savings another.... opportunists another...   It's all consequences of printing money. Usually ending up in the hands of corporations ...To the very entities that you try to justify the subsidies to with MMT. Lastly, We know you're full of shit when you start throwing out "models"  No one can predict the future. "Markets are unpredictable" Think for one second and try to rationalize the truth to yourself that there is no such thing as fortune telling or predicting the future.  There are no real super heros or X-Men. Just think dude. Use your brain lol. Keep trying to time the market you'll lose your ass to "models" -Same thing goes to the idiots who think they can groom an entire economy. 

Junior_Client3022

Oh brother. It's been corporate greed this whole time now just this once it's some kinda dance around by-product of corporate greed because of inflation but without acknowledging the fact that it was all consequences of inflation. Inflation is a cause. Not an effect. Inflation is the increase in a base supply of currency.  Inflation is not "rising prices" Rising prices are just one effect of inflation... diluted savings another.... opportunists another...  It's all consequences of printing money. Usually ending up in the hands of corporations. To the very entities that you try to justify the subsidies to with MMT.

fuji_ju

False, MMT models show that this time, greedflation was the largest contributor. It's not always the case.

Hour_Eagle2

MMT explains inflation as corporate greed. This is not a serious economic school of thought.

fuji_ju

MMT is able to make predictions based on models. Austrian economics cannot. Keynes has blindspots, classical economists also. It doesn't mean that they can't all agree on some things.

Hour_Eagle2

Weird how the more the currency is debased the higher assets go up. MMT is fantasyland economics.

fuji_ju

I mean, the MMT dynamic models work, while the Austrians don't even have models lol. Steve Keen showed that the 2022 inflation was mostly greedflation and not so much due to the printing press. It's counter-intuitive but it's also backed by research.

zootananny

Taxes serve little purpose in our debt-entrenched, MMT boondoggle that is the U.S. government

Florida_Man0101

Think of the dollar and debt as lubrication to keep the American engine roaring. Modern Monitary Theory MMT means the US can go into as much debt as it wants to until it can't.

Few_Employment_7876

It doesn't matter. These tests that compare to household debt are idiots. MMT explains it all. Do the research.

The_Realist01

When rate cuts occur, risk assets (equities) get hair cutted in favor of bonds. Typically bonds rally hard with rate cuts, not sure that will be the case given guaranteed inflation over the next decade. I expect a ton of volatility either way, with only continuing short, medium, and long term funding issues for western central governments. In response to poor bond offerings, I’m expecting either increased tariffs or taxes to shore up annual deficits. Both will harm consumer spending and we’ll enter either stagflation or a considerable economic downturn. That situation will lead to rampant printing we haven’t seen to date yet because governments are teetering between Keynesian and MMT approaches to federal funding. As long as it is not entirely illegal for citizens to own (6601), taxes into oblivion (looking at you democrat party), I expect bitcoin to really take off on the backs of institutions, banks, and corporates finally and actually realizing that holding fiat as a corporate or transactional base medium of exchange and or SoV is a terrible proposition for their shareholders and stakeholders. It’s either bitcoin or gold and honestly, in the 10 years it takes to get there, gen X to millennials will be running the show. Gold should be out of the lexicon in terms of interest, as well as the benefits of bitcoin with ease of transferability, storage costs, natural currency for internet transactions, stock to flow rates, borderless, and permissionless reasons.

thecoat9

So obnoxiously annoying. We don't have a tax revenue problem, we have a spending problem. No matter how much the federal governmnet collects in taxes it spends more than it collects in revenue. Frankly if you look at federal expenditures in relation to GDP it's pretty clear that the federal government expenditures are reliably a percentage of GDP. I want the federal government to stop deficit spending, maybe even work on realizing a surplus to pay down existing debt after which I'm then happy to entertain tax policy to increase revenue, until then though they are just going to piss away any revenue increases and drive the nation further into the hole and despite what the MMT crowd thinks, eventually we (the citizenry or our progidny) will deal with the consequence of profligate spending. I am however happy that Harris is finally publicly elucidating her bat shit policies instead of remaining a blank template for individual policy projection. At least if she's elected her supporters won't be able to claim surprised at the shit show, meh that's to much to hope for, most think she's the greatest thing since sliced bread despite her participation in the gas lighting about Biden's mental state and the undemocratic palace coup that has elevated her to the party nominee.

MagicCookiee

Nothing triggers me more than the MMT stupidity. It takes a special kind of retard to follow their economic policy suggestions.

argjwel

MMT was proved wrong in the pandemics.

Knerd5

MMT has never been practiced. If it were, instead of raising interest rates to quell inflation taxes would have been raised. Taxes have not been raised therefore no MMT.

Terrible-Pattern8933

MMT clowns be like -- But the debt is owed to ourselves so it does not matter.

nishinoran

Yup, right once about international trade, then spent the rest of his career shilling for Keynesian economics, MMT, and whatever the Democratic platform said.

aprx4

MMT is extremely unpopular and not even supported by anyone in Fed or government. And because they don't believe in MMT, they think that debt should be reduced but don't know how, which means they are just pretending that current situation is fine. The funny thing about MMT is that it assumes state has no restriction in printing money, logically taxing people become meaningless. But ironically MMT says government needs to significantly increase tax to 'restrain' spending otherwise MMT would cause hyperinflation. It is not a solution to anything.

cryptoAccount0

Go learn basic MMT, and look at the demand curve of the USD vs Supply. Econ 101. Maybe you need to take that class again lol

mchrisoo7

Always funny to me how many people are claiming that the MMT allows for such a conclusion. It's just wrong. MMT is not implying that the debt level does not matter.

robotfightandfitness

They’d be correct. BTC allows you to capitalize on people that think an increasing money supply is a problem. “100 years ago $1 could buy you xyz!” Ask how much an iPhone should cost and then MMT starts to make sense. It’s always “just another quarter and they’ll really see the problems with the debt!” I’m still waiting

Stock_Coconut1004

MMT - Modern Monetary Theory - says that the level of government debt does not matter because the government can always print more money to cover the interest. This is why you stack sats.

whyteave

The government doesn't subscribe to MMT so I don't know how you can blame inflation on a theory that isn't practised.. Literally the main point about MMT is you need to control inflation above all else. Which is clearer not what has happened. Why hasn't Japan's economy imploded with a debt to GDP ratio of 263 percent?

whyteave

This is a common misconception. MMT main concern is about keeping inflation under control.

fainje

Lol, thats MMT. Countrys can print endless FIAT money, but noone tells you about hyperinflation. Thats why we bitcoin.

UrU_AnnA

Opt out the MMT inflation game, pivot to Bitcoin.

4xfun

Rule 1: no one can predict the future Rule 2: past behavior does not predict future behavior  Rule 3:but when everybody is fearful Rule 4: price action does not matter. 1btc = 1btc Rule 5: focus on the long term  Fact 1: MMT policy will keep on MTTing  Fact 2: BTC has very good fundamentals 

2xfun

The world is controlled by capitalist. The majority of these people made their fortune via the stock market and speculating with real estate. The MMT policy will be in place forever until hyperinflation pump their **assets** to the moon.

uncapchad

But MMT says that govts need not worry about unlimited printing or ever needing it to be paid back. Many countries, including US, started adopting *some of* this thinking following the financial meltdown [https://www.investopedia.com/modern-monetary-theory-mmt-4588060](https://www.investopedia.com/modern-monetary-theory-mmt-4588060) So is this just going to be an ongoing headline for all eternity because there's no way to kill this debt and keep an economy going without mega pain and suffering.

Narrow_Elk6755

https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2021/12/staff-discussion-paper-2021-17/ Here's my central banks rationale on it.  Which outlines their desire to prevent competition, to allow financial repression in lieu of raising taxes to actually pay for things. If you see the seigniorage section it even mentions MMT.

Narrow_Elk6755

The Bank of Canada outlines it pretty bluntly and honestly: https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2021/12/staff-discussion-paper-2021-17/ They even mention MMT, and give credence to it, prior to the 8% inflation they created.  Alongside their desire to not have to tax money to spend money, and the desire to rather debase peoples salaries. >Sovereign currencies have also been a source of state revenue via seigniorage, which refers to the difference between the face value of money and the cost to produce it. Seigniorage is effectively “an alternative source of revenue for the state, beyond what government can raise through taxation or borrowing from financial markets” (Cohen 1998, 39). At times, printing money has been an expedient way for governments to finance unexpected emergencies such as wars—a kind of fiscal option of last resort (Cohen 1998; Eichengreen 1994; Glasner 1989). Enhanced fiscal capacity was indeed one of the motivations for creating national currencies in the first place (Helleiner 2003). How much would it matter if currency substitution undermined a state’s ability to generate seigniorage? Today, seigniorage is not a major source of revenue for most states.7 As many scholars have noted, governments that rely too heavily on printing money to finance expenses tend to produce higher inflation (Cohen 1998; Cukierman, Edwards and Tabellini 1992; Fischer 1982). To the extent that high inflation is a common driver of dollarization, seigniorage could be seen as a potentially self-extinguishing privilege—one that governments may lose if they abuse, provided that residents can access viable substitutes for the official currency. At the same time, there has been considerable debate recently about the role of sovereign currencies in supporting greater fiscal capacity. Proponents of modern monetary theory (MMT), for example, argue that currency-issuing states face few—if any—budget constraints (Kelton 2020). It is far from clear if this idea applies as widely as MMT scholars suggest (Bonizzi, Kaltenbrunner and Michell 2019; Henwood 2019). Still, seigniorage is likely to remain an important resource that governments want to preserve, not only as a source of ongoing revenue but also, more importantly, as a flexible fiscal option in exceptional circumstances. Seigniorage is also critical to the financial autonomy of central banks. If seigniorage revenues fell so low that central bank operations had to be financed through taxes, this could raise important concerns about central bank independence and the politicization of monetary policy (Engert and Fung 2017).

DyehuthyTV

Banks also have "electronic cash" to settle transactions among themselves, just because it is called "electronic cash", does not mean that it is an "Exchange Rate Currency" (Dollar, Euro, Yen, etc) As Satoshi say, its a Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash with Fix Supply (Monetary Base) is not a "Exchange Rate Currency" where a few people can control the "Monetary Protocol" (Network) ;) **This is, basically, the difference between BROAD MONEY (Circulating Money) and MONETARY BASE (Circulating Reserves)** >He invented bitcoin so we could buy literal goods online.  **No, here you are wrong, he invented Bitcoin to give us an Alternative, that is Descentralized Monetary Base (Protocol), wich means anyone can have access, incluying bad actors, he Invented Bitcoin to Replace the BANKING SYSTEM (*****That actually expand the Monetary Base, by Fractional Reserves*****), he didnt invented a "Electronic FIAT Version".** **If you believe that Bitcoin can be used as a FIAT Money, you dont understand Bitcoin at all! ;)** >“The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that’s required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust.“The root problem with conventional currency is all the trust that’s required to make it work. The central bank must be trusted not to debase the currency, but the history of fiat currencies is full of breaches of that trust.” >— Satoshi Nakamoto" You sound like a BSV Scammer Fan! >I love what bitcoin is today but I’m also completely aware this goes completely against what Nakamoto intended.  I seem to be responding to a Fake Bitcoiner, and I can assure you that there are many, who want more control over the bitcoin network and make changes, and still do not understand the fundamentals of Bitcoin because they are still with a Keynesian mentality (MMT Economics) = More Control & More Spending over the Bitcoin Network. Bitcoin go agaisnt this! If you understand it, of course! If you dont understand it, sorry I dont have time for explain it to you ;) (*Go Study Economics first!*)

lifeanon269

What part? For more info on the Atlantic Dawn, this is a good initial read: https://britishseafishing.co.uk/atlantic-dawn-the-ship-from-hell/ Lots of other info in this subreddit on MMT versus the more Austria economic theory that bitcoin follows. With bitcoin, government budget deficits would be much less common than they are today under MMT. With tighter fiscal policies, subsidies for things like super trawlers that don't have public backing would be much more difficult to pass under a properly approved federal budget. When a government can just print money, they don't need to worry as much about budget deficits since any debt taken on and any interest on that debt taken can be lessened through inflation. That inflation lowers the value of the currency and thus the debt's burden, but also hurts the working class by diminishing the value of the money they've worked hard earning.

Rationally-Skeptical

Definitely read those guys too. I’d include Adam Smith and Ayn Rand in that list. But it’s critical to also understand MMT, what money actually is today, how it technically operates, and the role of debt. Most Bitcoiners and gold bugs I’ve talked with at length are embarrassing ignorant on these topics.

schmelf

Agree to disagree 🤷‍♂️ I got a BS in economics and can tell you the main theories we learned were all Keynes, who’s main bullshit theory is that as long as spending is high the economy is good and that’s where this bullshit MMT theory is derived from. It’s all theoretical models that fall apart in the real world because they drive growing levels of wealth inequality.

thebubbleburst25

The banks loan the money into existence. So the closer you are to that money, the more money you'll get before the assets blow up. MMT and QE is really just a wealth transfer to the upper middle class and up

supersb360

You should watch the MMT documentary called “finding the money”. It says the governments deficit is actually societies surplus. They are crazy. But it made me realize every dollar the government sends into the world does not go to citizenry, it goes to corporations. The govt deficit is corporate surplus. The wealth inequality we have is precisely because of the government. And we can’t stop it. The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks

SteveW928

Thanks for that link, it will make great fodder for a series of blog posts or podcast episodes. The problems with it, are many. First, it uses Bitcoin a lot in the wording (when rhetorically convenient), while also using the term 'crypto' (when also rhetorically convenient), while being quite confused about the differences (whether accidentally, or purposely... I suspect the latter). Second, it trades off a lot of idealistic concepts, while ignoring reality when convenient. (Again, it is well crafted, rhetorically.) It isn't grounded in reality. Economics and Bitcoin are more engineering & societal type issues than pure math, theory, or science. You have to have an accurate view of human nature, societies and systems (and their problems), governments and their problems, etc. and I don't think this critique does. You have to make tradeoffs, as perfect isn't possible. It's use of logic and logical fallacies is troubling. It ignores them internally, while implementing them when useful. It has many technical problems, for example (as a miner myself) understanding of Bitcoin mining. It also, IMO, has many economics problems, though I suppose this depends one one's economic views (ie: Austrian, Keynesian, MMT, etc.) I feel bad if you were taken in by this, but you had some nice gains. You were a successful trader, but I'm not very confident you really understood Bitcoin.

Absalome

First off, I'd drop the "told you so" portions, along with the swearing. That'll only alienate people and they'll disregard anything afterwards, or feel attacked. Furthermore, "They" in reference to the government is going to be dismissed immediately as conspiracy theory "They". My response would have been: Every dollar the government prints decreases the value of the dollars you have. And they can do this at any moment they like. Bitcoin doesn't have this problem because there is a finite about of Bitcoin. Read into Bitcoin/inflation/MMT.

jasperdogood

Money is nothing more than a unit of accounting similar to an inch or a foot being a unit of linear measurement. When planning a construction project like a building, or highway, or airport, the project will be constrained by the availability of steel, or concrete, or machinery, or skilled workers, but not the availability of inches. That understanding is at the heart of MMT. Governments create fiat currencies in order to provision themselves. Let’s say a burgeoning government wants to buy hay to feed its army’s horses. It offers a local farmer seemingly useless paper dollars to buy his hay. The farmer has no use for these useless dollars so he refuses to sell. The government buyer then explains that the government will require a tax to be paid or the government confiscate his farm ( yes, it is coercive) those seemingly useless paper dollars are the only acceptable means for paying the tax. Suddenly the farmer and all his neighbors who will be similarly taxed will have a need for those paper dollars. This is how a currency is born. The government who is the issueer of the currency doesn’t need taxpayers money in order to spend, they can create money with keystrokes. The taxpayers are the ones who need the government’s money to satisfy the imposed tax liability. The extra money that is not taxed away by the government circulates throughout the economy and causes the economy to flourish. By the jargon of double entry accounting we call that untaxed money floating around the economy the federal deficit. Historically, whenever that so-called federal deficit has become too small the economy ceases to flourish and a recession has occurred.

supersb360

Wonderful documentary but those MMT people are batshit crazy

IndubitablePrognosis

According to MMT, it's to control inflation.

entropys_enemy

Note that MMT proponents generally think interest on US bonds should be set at 0% or that bond sales should be eliminated entirely (effectively the same thing as 0% interest).

The_Realist01

Sorry, some people think a hard cap of 21m btc is somehow similar to MMT? What? Those people were dropped as children more than a few times.

Narrow_Elk6755

When he spent more than the democrats while gutting taxes it made me feel like MMT was true, I became a believer.

Narrow_Elk6755

Canada says the rational outright: https://www.bankofcanada.ca/2021/12/staff-discussion-paper-2021-17/ the difference between the face value of money and the cost to produce it. Seigniorage is effectively “an alternative source of revenue for the state, beyond what government can raise through taxation or borrowing from financial markets” (Cohen 1998, 39). At times, printing money has been an expedient way for governments to finance unexpected emergencies such as wars—a kind of fiscal option of last resort (Cohen 1998; Eichengreen 1994; Glasner 1989). Enhanced fiscal capacity was indeed one of the motivations for creating national currencies in the first place (Helleiner 2003). How much would it matter if currency substitution undermined a state’s ability to generate seigniorage?  Today, seigniorage is not a major source of revenue for most states.7 As many scholars have noted, governments that rely too heavily on printing money to finance expenses tend to produce higher inflation (Cohen 1998; Cukierman, Edwards and Tabellini 1992; Fischer 1982). To the extent that high inflation is a common driver of dollarization, seigniorage could be seen as a potentially self-extinguishing privilege—one that governments may lose if they abuse, provided that residents can access viable substitutes for the official currency. At the same time, there has been considerable debate recently about the role of sovereign currencies in supporting greater fiscal capacity. Proponents of modern monetary theory (MMT), for example, argue that currency-issuing states face few—if any—budget constraints (Kelton 2020). It is far from clear if this idea applies as widely as MMT scholars suggest (Bonizzi, Kaltenbrunner and Michell 2019; Henwood 2019).  Still, seigniorage is likely to remain an important resource that governments want to preserve, not only as a source of ongoing revenue but also, more importantly, as a flexible fiscal option in exceptional circumstances. Seigniorage is also critical to the financial autonomy of central banks. If seigniorage revenues fell so low that central bank operations had to be financed through taxes, this could raise important concerns about central bank independence and the politicization of monetary policy (Engert and Fung 2017).

bittercoin99

I live in Canada, so I'm just along for the ride. Plus I have my own circus to pick a side in. RFK says he wants to integrate Bitcoin into the existing system. He claims he recognizes why it's superior to fiat and can help to fix our clearly ailing socioeconomic model. Trump is ignorant of it but not irrationality opposed, and Biden seems to actively work against it. Yes I definitely want RFK to get more attention so he can defend his position on this to a wide audience. Debasement = Theft is pretty easy to understand. I'd like to see the existing system and its supporters publically defend MMT.  Only one candidate seems likely to instigate that...

fresheneesz

It's not a long bill. What part of it conveniences you that it's "MMT bullshit"? All it says is how to wind down the fed. It does not detail what comes next. Perhaps it should, but I don't see any evidence of any MMT bullshit.

necessary_dm

I am not saying Bitcoiners actively support MMT, but many are uninformed as to what it is and when they see legislation going through Congress that appears to be pro-Bitcoin on the surface, they will get behind it not realizing that they are actually supporting MMT. I'm not twisting anything. All I'm trying to get across is to understand the intention of certain foundation altering bills being introduced. Bitcoin and MMT both want to end the fed, but in very different ways.

necessary_dm

That is literally one of the goals of MMT is to end the fed. To erase the debt and just print. Yes, we all want to see the Federal Reserve Act abolished and adopt a sound money system. All I am saying is that MMT is not the path to doing it. It's going in the opposite direction of Bitcoin. Psyop, lol, must've had a healthy bowl of Conspiracy'Os in the morning.

nottobetakenesrsly

MMT doesn't map onto reality. The vast majority of money creation is via commercial banks, not governments. When governments issue debt, they are mostly seeking the monetary format they can spend in the real economy; commercial bank deposits. Select commercial banks are obligated to buy government debt at auction (sometimes called primary dealers). However, money is only "printed" when commercial banks expand their balance sheets to acquire the debt - otherwise, debt issuance is absorbed by existing supply. MMT will stay theory and not practice (and it's not even a good theory; just "feel-good" guidelines for central banks).

b3zd0my

Hmm. Most people who want to end the Fed are entirely opposed to MMT. But you raise an important idea. In my experience, most who want to end the Fed want a commodity backed system (whether gold or silver ... or btc ... or whatever) to replace it. The Fed made MMT possible in the first place. It'd be good to make sure the MMT's don't get their way

Paragon_Voice

I only recently heard of MMT after learning more about the film where the hilarious clip of the "Chief Economist" spends 2 minutes failing to explain how money is created in our system originates. But after looking into it, it really is just more idiotic.

Paragon_Voice

On one hand, MMT would hasten the end of the USD, rocketing it into hyperinflation. And once they realize what they've done, Cantillon Effect goes hard, as they print more money to buy Bitcoin, or other hard assets, meanwhile raising the taxes of the general populace, preventing them from owning anything. At least with our current system, it is a slower death, and allows more people to wake up and flee to Bitcoin. I legitimately fear something so irresponsible as MMT from gaining any traction.

PelosisPortfolio

MMT makes good observation of how this idiotic system works. It would be wise to hear them out on that. Their solutions however are even more dangerous than sticking with status quo.

Paragon_Voice

If this is a MMT thing, it's actually worse than the system we currently have. At least by tracking our debt, it retains a shred of fiscal responsibility to hold the U.S. accountable for printing endless money. Under MMT, they would just do away with keeping track of the debt, and just print into oblivion with no accountability. It's funny, the MMT'ers are calling out the fallacies and flaws of our current system, making it seem like they're the good guys. But when you step back, they are just playing the game to get support for a worse system. I even see Bitcoiners agreeing with MMT'ers, not realizing what they're actually trying to do. And that kind of blind support is dangerous. Again, I haven't read enough of this bill to see if that is the intent, though, but I will. And everyone else should take note of what forces are at play on the death bed of the fiat dollar. Everyone is just waiting for its final death knell.

stayyfr0styy

MMT (modern money theory) is gaining traction, and the chair of the council to economic advisors to the president can’t even answer the question of why the government borrows money when it can just print money. MMT is the most ridiculous economic idea ever taken seriously. It’s almost satire, they believe that government debt doesn’t matter and may actually somehow be better the more it goes up. They ignore scarcity, they ignore currency devaluation, they think that endless government spending can’t cause hyperinflation and that private companies (that don’t control the money supply) are responsible for inflation. Bitcoin is the exit strategy. Let them live in their fiat system, we will too, we will hold appreciating bitcoin and spend depreciating fiat and debt.

piemel83

The debt based monetary system is quite logical and is the reason we got pulled out the Stone Age. Read for example Sapiens by Harari. If I need money to buy a productive asset, say a machine to produce a good. I borrow the money and buy the machine. I now have a profitable business. I pay back the loan and have created wealth. I might borrow more and grow my company. Nothing worrying about it. Where it goes wrong is if money is put into unproductive assets, growing money supply without growing the economy itself. Read a book about modern monetary theory (MMT).

amadeupsound

Deficit spending = monetary inflation. There has been on average ~10% annual monetary inflation in the US since 1980. MMT ideas seem to be holding strong in both parties, which means there’s no end in sight at the moment. Dollar devaluation will only get worse until this Keynsian (on steroids?) idea is proven to be detrimental to the populace, which anybody with their eyes open can already see is happening.

threepairs

What/who is MMT?