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Estimates and projections are absolutely part of estimating (I mean you literally cannot say the word without also saying estimate) intrinsic value. NOBODY KNOWS THE INTRINSIC VALUE OF ANYTHING. It is an estimation. I'm starting to feel like I'm talking to the wrong crowd here.
The paper "money" is a currency. Gold & Silver is money. The difference between currency and money is that the money is a STORE OF VALUE (for a long period of time/ centuries). The currency is subject to inflation & deflation, so it changes its value over time.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be a store of value. Money SHOULD HOLD ITS VALUE. Absolutely. Buying a hot dog today should cost the same in 10 years. HOLD its value. Bitcoin doesn't HOLD its value, it GAINS value. I believe it will always gain value over the long term. This leads to hodling bitcoin. You need velocity of money in an economy to thrive. HODLing removes it from circulation causing more price volatility.
>Just to be clear, it is the CEX that is going to be regulated and not the token itself. It's the function of the token (essentially a dividend paying instrument) that will mean it is a security and that is what will cause the problems somewhere down the line with regulators in each nation that people reside in that purchase the token. I really do think it would be of benefit for the project to seek external council about the way the token is proposed to function and how differant jurisdictions regulatory frameworks will class it. Understanding its potential legal classification early might afford the project the opportunity to "tweak" things with the token and avoid a heap of regulatory problems down the road... >If not, I can always relay questions to him and provide responses here. Look, I won't be investing just based on the 20% tax thing. It's just not a viable structure to work with based in my tax jurisdiction. My government decided that every transaction = a taxable event which means that everytime I were to recieve the dividend payout, I need to log the price of the token, convert it to AUD, calculate the value of the dividend and then pay approx 30% (my current tax bracket) of that value in tax to my government (to be paid EOFY). This creates a HUGE problem if the token price fluctuates a lot as the taxable VALUE is calculated at the TIME the taxable event occurred. So for example let's say in January the token value is worth $8,000 and the dividend value I'm paid out = $400 x 30% = $120 tax owed. Then in June the token value crashes to $400 but I still owe the tax department the $ value worked out at the time each taxable event occurred. If I'm using my investment to pay the tax owed, this means if the price crashes around EOFY that I can end up with significant draw down as I need to sell enough to pay the tax liabilities incurred throughout the previous financial year (this very scenario played out with $TIME....). I would suggest Y5 look into ways they could minimise the onerous tax reporting for holders in such tax jurisdictions. Maybe along the lines of what several DAO's did to minimise taxable events for those of us in such jurisdictions. This was done through a "wrap" mechanism so that all "dividends" auto compound within a smart contract and a taxable event only occurs once the mechanism is unwrapped (DAO's called it rebases but its essentially the same function as dividend = value being returned to token holders). This also allows it to be carried multi year without causing draw downs to pay out tax liabilities each financial year on profits as the profits are not realised until unwrapping. There is another added benefit to wrapping as well, in my tax jurisdiction if an investment is held for 12 mths or greater, the Capital Gains Tax is discounted by 50%. So, instead of paying 30% in my case, it becomes 15% if the taxable event occurs at 12mths or longer. That's a substantial saving. No one loves taxes or regulations... but they are both coming to the crypto space! Projects that start taking these 2 things seriously and structuring in such ways so as to benifit holders across different jurisdictions are going to be the projects that rise to the top as crypto becomes more regulated. Good luck with it, I will keep an eye on Y5 moving forwards. Interested to see how things progress and who knows, it may become viable for me in the future.
But at least the price of bitcoin is set and you can see it traded openly and can see value go up and down. A JPEG can be worth millions today and nothing tomorrow, it has no specific VALUE and can’t be appraised like bitcoin can
Thank you u/ncdevman. Can’t wrap my head around the seething anger munger and buffet (famous for their acumen in selecting VALUE STOCKS) are able to draw out of this community. And to your point, he was 85 when Satoshi mined the genesis block!
Thank you u/ncdevman. Can’t wrap my head around the seething anger munger and buffet (famous for their acumen in selecting VALUE STOCKS) are able to draw out of this community. And to your point, he was 85 when Satoshi mined the genesis block!
It’s great to see someone explain this so clearly, it’s always confusing to people who are new why the bitcoin is the relative point in crypto. 1 bitcoin is just 1/21 000 000 parts and that’s all you need to know. Even if the market cap increases, the VALUE of 1 btc remains even if ita PRICE changes.
>HOW DOES THAT INCREATE THE VALUE OF THE STUPID SERIES OF NFTS that currently are in the nft market? I will assume you said "how does that icnrease the value of the supid series of nfts that are currently on the nft market" Ugh, it doesn't? That is like saying how is a website about dogs and cats going to increase the value of a business website offering solutions to help scale small businesses. It doesn't. It's not meant to, there is no relation to each what so ever.
Their potential to count tickets cool. That serves monpurpose in the argument that NFTS alone with mo utility behind it shoild have value. And everything that nfts purport to provide to ticketing already have existing tech that does it better. And begs the question, using it for tickets cool, HOW DOES THAT INCREATE THE VALUE OF THE STUPID SERIES OF NFTS that currently are in the nft market?
> Fiat currencies work through inflation. $1 in 1900 equals $0.07 in 2022 That's not what we're talking about though. The argument that 1 BTC = 1 BTC is the same that $1 = $1. The comparison that the VALUE of the dollar just like the VALUE of Bitcoin changes over time isn't what we're talking about. If you want to talk about inflation, then fine. First, let's look at Bitcoin. Sure it's deflationary long term, but there are dark crypto winters. Someone who had $60,000+ Bitcoin in 2021 would only have $20,000 worth today. Is that how people should be living? So you think it's unfair that I expressed it in USD right? Fine. 1 BTC in 2021 could buy you a Tesla Model 3. It can no longer do so. In fact it can't even buy you a Toyota Camry today. If people need to pay bills, rent, etc, landlords aren't going to accept a 60%+ paycut in value. Second, no one is advised to hold USD cash from 1900 to 2022. That's just dumb. Everyone who talks about that is retarded here. There's a reason IRAs, 401ks, etc all exist and with retail investing at an all time high now, I'm surprised people still think that savings = holding cash in your bank or under your mattress. Or maybe y'all are just being really dishonest because that hasn't been the recommended way of saving for decades now. Instead of talking about $1 cash, why not talk about how people actually manage their money? [$1 in the S&P500 in 1900 would be worth nearly $90,000 in 2022](https://www.officialdata.org/us/stocks/s-p-500/1900?amount=1&endYear=2022). My problem with this sub is people don't even manage fiat in their life properly. Yes, right now you can talk about the 20% decline in the stock market, and people also like to point at 2008, but we also can't ignore that the S&P500 is up 150% over 2007 highs. If we go back 30 years, the S&P 500 has 10x-ed. 40 years? Basically what people save for retirement 30x+. Now that doesn't sound sexy compared to 28394723% growth in Bitcoin but guess what? If you actually saw your Bitcoin grow that much you would be on a private island now and not chatting on Reddit. 99.9999% of you all missed the meteoric rise in Bitcoin, but somehow think that by getting in now or whenever you did you can still get rich. And finally, all this talk about inflation. Yes, inflation is a buzz word in 2021/2022. But did you care about inflation over the decade before the pandemic when it was < 2% average? Even 10 year average of inflation including today is < 3%. But let me guess, you never cared there were tried and true ways of beating inflation all these years and all of a sudden it's the worst thing in the world.
Correct, so the only way to calculate value is either it's utility (not sure Bitcoin utility is much higher than the cost of a wire transfer) or it's scarcity (like a baseball card). Buffett and Munger use calcuations and models to value present and future value of companies that PRODUCE VALUE. Why would they ever invest in crypto to begin with? Buffet has alwasy been critical of non-producing assets (gold, etc). Seeking their opinion or approval is akin to asking a professsional Football player their thoughts on Curling. Why is this sub so desperate for their approval?
This is just flat out insane line of thinking and this is why buttcoiners make fun of us. You're a 100% complete fool if you can say for certainty that BTC is going back up. I'm bullish on BTC and think we'll hit 70k in the next 6 years, but to think that BTC can't ever have a major bear market or that it would never take 10 years to bottom is so stupid. I also love how you're 100% convinced of BTC's future lifelong trajectory based on 12 years of trading data. I downright hate this shitty moonboi mentality "BTC WILL ALWAYS GO UP THERE IS NO WAY IT WILL NEVER STOP GOING UP THE LOSS IN VALUE IS ONLY TEMPORARY AS IT WILL GO BACK UP IT ALWAYS DOES" Like seriously, thinking ike this make this entire community look fucking stupid IMO. I personally think BTC will go up long term, but for fucks sake mate you make us look stupid if you just say "THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY BTC IS EVER GOING DOWN LONG TERM." Idk, funny how it's apparantly a fact that BTC is going up but somehow its down 60+% off the highs....you must be the only person on the planet who figured this out, or else BTC wouldn't be down 60% for this long.
Lightning has some of the BEST potential in the entire Bitcoin eco-system, which is admittedly still growing, but at an exponential rate. It's easy to forget, or not even realise, this isn't just the transfer of 'money'. This is the transfer of VALUE in the form of data.
It has no functional value, that doesnt mean it isnt worth anything. Gold can be made into things. Crypto cant. There arent even much in the way of assets you could point to, like a corporation. Even if it goes under its property, its factories have value. Dollar bills have no REAL VALUE. yall do know this. It gets its value from the fact we accept them as value, but the value of a dollar is just a few cents of paper. saying their isnt a floor to how far down it can go, is just reflected in the fact that if it imploded, there is no value outside of crypto, to dissemble and sell off. where gold has a floor due to its use, even if its speculative value went away, people would still buy it to put in electronics and other things. Not a fan of kramer, but yall are using the colloquial def of "real value" rather than the investor def of 'real value"
> if bitcoin isn’t showing that it is setup to fight inflation, when it’s the highest it has been in 40 years, then what “time” is it waiting for? >"the first place a majority of big and small investors are pulling their money out of? The riskiest of risky investment areas, of which, Crypto’s, including bitcoin, take the cake. Bitcoin is a protocol if humans pull their money out in times of inflation because they find it "risky" it will fall. The "risky" thing with Bitcoin is not so much Bitcoin itself, it is rather created by how we humans treat it. If we didn't pull out our money in a time of inflation it would not fall and fail to protect people in a time of inflation. I personally suspect the rise of Bitcoin up to 69k and fall of Bitcoin of Bitcoin down to 19k has been manufactured and timed by Bankers so that people like you can point at it and say. See it doesn't work. > Also, what time are you waiting for, as far as bitcoin goes for a “store of value” if at a time, when I would argue, is the most important time for it to be a store of value! Ironically, it is losing VALUE more quickly than the very assets it is supposed to store value against! Bitcoin so far has been a store of value for timeframes longer than 4 plus years. And many savers do save on that or longer timeframes. For example a 20 year old might save 4 or more years in order to buy their first home. And after that will save on timeframes that are 20 plus years for their retirement. > So, again I ask, what is the point of bitcoin? What is the point of any of these “rare”, “unique” “limited” coins? If you do not understand the point. Congratulations you are not one of the billions of people that live in a time or country where you have the need for something like Bitcoin. But billions of other people live in countries where no banks will give them access to banking services or where their currency is experiencing high inflation. Or lived or will live in a time where something like Bitcoin could protect their life savings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjvSqaGhKQI Also Bitcoin using lightning network cuts fees. A creditcard fee is around 3% for a merchant. On a product on which the merchant earn say 5% cutting away the 3% fee would increase the profit the merchant makes with over 50%. That is the difference between staying alive and prosper or not for some businesses. > I’ll take my chances, over the long term, with the S&P. Good for you! But not everyone in this world lives in US and have access to S&P.
I think bitcoin had one hell of a run, really. I think the fact of the matter is that when free money was running rampant and there was a ton of disposable income (thanks to the government turning on the printing press) that high risk, zero backed and meaningless assets rose. Now, where are the first place a majority of big and small investors are pulling their money out of? The riskiest of risky investment areas, of which, Crypto’s, including bitcoin, take the cake. You say time will tell on inflation…if bitcoin isn’t showing that it is setup to fight inflation, when it’s the highest it has been in 40 years, then what “time” is it waiting for? Also, what time are you waiting for, as far as bitcoin goes for a “store of value” if at a time, when I would argue, is the most important time for it to be a store of value! Ironically, it is losing VALUE more quickly than the very assets it is supposed to store value against! So, again I ask, what is the point of bitcoin? What is the point of any of these “rare”, “unique” “limited” coins? I’ll take my chances, over the long term, with the S&P. Bitcoin is nothing more than hype and boy, does it ever get hyped up, constantly….
US dollars ALREADY HAVE VALUE. Central bankers do no work to create them. If the coin is able to gain traction, good for them. It's hyper competitive though. Good luck. Almost all of them fail so your imagined money creation of limitless cryptos just isn't true. The ones that do make it have no one at the top that can just create new units and enrich themselves at will like the central banks have.
Fiat continues to fall and decrease in value over time - hasn't stopped anyone from spending it for over 200 years now. Why would an appreciating currency be a problem? In fact, it is better as that means you are leaving MORE VALUE FOR FUTURE GENERATIONS than you started out with. Currently someone can leave their kids with a million dollars and that won't even buy a month's ration in a few decades!
Still hard for people to understand bitcoin like all the other lesser coins is worth itself fiat has nothing to do with it bitcoin is a currency and has a exchange rate just like going from American dollar to a Mexican peso or any other currency UNTIL GOVERNMENT CAN UNDERSTAND THIS IT WILL ALWAYS BE OF NO REAL STAND ALONE VALUE
THIS IS REAL VALUE: Total value of lost bitcoin = $140 billion Of the existing 18.5 million Bitcoin, around 20 percent — currently worth around $140 billion — appear to be in lost or otherwise stranded wallets, according to the cryptocurrency data firm Chainalysis. Lost Passwords Lock Millionaires Out of Their Bitcoin Fortunes www.nytimes.com/2021/01/12/technology/bitcoin-passwords-wallets-fortunes.html
I am buying the projects that have real workd utility. Things like end to end encrypted coomunications. Decentralized Cloud computing. Nfts with user data controls. Most things, not worth touching. Utility amd bluechips. Cosmos ecosystem projects like $SCRT, $ALTER, $JKL, $BTC, $ETH. launching new feature today, we have AlterDapp which is a end to end communications, reminiscent of TG built on secret network. Video conference comming soon via huddle01 partnership. Access by staking 10 SCRT (10 USD VALUE) To any validator. Hard to not be bullish on this. https://scrt.network/blog/secret-feature-alter-stake-to-access
> Number of miners and number of transactions are related but also not dependent. They are incredibly closely related. Again, the relationship is so close you can reasonably well decide when to buy and sell just from energy usage alone > As you probably know, Every 3.5 years the mining rewards are also cut in half. So what? If at any point that gets low enough to make mining not worth it, then bitcoin completely dies since it would have zero security at that point on. That's not something to brag about... it's actually a massive flaw of bitcoin, kind of like a time bomb in your chest. > More miners = less rewards per miner due to competition. Yes that's why the number of them levels out right around proportional to the number of users, not "just more infinitely"... I said linear relationship not "vertical line" > And since miner PROFIT is dependent on their costs and mining is highly portable, miners are incentivized to find the cheapest energy they can to lower their costs… They already did that. Priced in. > But in the end, what it all comes down to is VALUE. It’s not just about what is the cost to support the network, but what is the value for that spent energy. Literally $0 since you can do everything exactly as well with PoS and use no energy.
Right- energy usage scales with the number of MINERS. Number of miners and number of transactions are related but also not dependent. Some Miners are shutting down right now due the recent price drop. As you probably know, Every 3.5 years the mining rewards are also cut in half. Also, More miners = less rewards per miner due to competition. Some miners shut down as rewards drop, competition increases, new (expensive) equipment is needed, etc. And since miner PROFIT is dependent on their costs and mining is highly portable, miners are incentivized to find the cheapest energy they can to lower their costs…. Which is generally where energy is readily available but demand is low. This leads to an entire other tangent about mining incentivizing us of renewable energy and helping to financially support the build out grid infrastructure to support solar, geothermal and other renewable but geographically isolated energy sources. But in the end, what it all comes down to is VALUE. It’s not just about what is the cost to support the network, but what is the value for that spent energy. Look past the money-making incentive for miners and western investors to the value of the Bitcoin network to the vast number of unbanked people in the world, the millions of global refugees, residents of countries who’s national currency has been inflated to zero, people who want to send money to family in other countries without paying western union 20%, small business owners who struggle to stay profitable paying the 3% credit card fee, etc
> What kind of returns have you gotten over the last 5+ years ? Been up 3000% and down 99% on my main investment. Make sure to get your initial investment out ASAP. It will be a huge relief just playing with house money. Because if everything goes to shit, at least you didn't loose something. > Is there something you wish you could tell your past self at a similar point during the market cycle ? Only realized gains are real gains. Do NOT treat your crypto money as real money. If you're suddenly up seven digits, don't think 'Oh I'm a millionaire now!'. You don't. You only have it if you sell. If you treat unrealized gains from a distance it will have much less of an impact when it goes down. Pay attention during the bear market. Don't try to time the market. DCA. > Any advice for someone looking to make decent returns from relatively conservative (in crypto terms) investment. Don't listen to this sub. Most of my money comes from doing the exact opposite of what this sub says. READ fucking whitepapers, and with read - don't just glance over them. Understand it. FIND projects that create actual VALUE for businesses, not projects that rely on new investors to keep them afloat! Watch out for red flags, like relentless moon marketing. I've never seen Ethereum promise you returns, but I see ads every day that I could become a millionaire if I buy dog coins. I don't say don't buy it. Sometimes you take risks, just be aware it's a gamble and use gamble money for that, not your main stack. Just put your main money in projects that you believe in LONGTERM. For example, all my money is in projects that are from 2017 so I know these are teams that will work through a bear market Finally, don't chase the dragon. Don't put money into small projects if you don't have any desire to understand how exactly they work, because if you don't care you won't keep up. You will watch mainly the price and if it falls your faith is gone. If you don't really care and just want a good chance to make moderate gains with moderate risks (crypto-relative), just stay with ETH and/or BTC.
Crazy how ignorant people can be on THE fucking crypto subreddit. Banking is a fucking huge industry, ever heard of it!?!?!?!? Moving currency from one person to another IS A FUCKING SERVICE. Not to mention the plethora of dapps, games, etc. You can think they are useless, but they are still services that DO HAVE VALUE to some people. Just because YOU think they have no value, doesn't mean they do... And the even funnier part is that those companies that you say generate goods & services....their stock price is determined by...you guessed it, SPECULATION.
The vast majority of the banks are going to create their own token issuances using the federated side chain feature. They value privacy for their own interbank settlements. The VALUE comes from connecting each of these walled gardens with XRP, so that when a bank wishes to travel outside of its garden to a new garden, they will use XRP. That is how the system has been designed.
I receive Satoshi MICRO PAYMEMTS almost daily. I settle invoices with overseas suppliers P2P. (note- the other P wants BTC and thats why I pay them in BTC). There are three takeaways accepting BTC PAYMENT within a stones throw. One will give me a free beer, as they want me to wait for 1confirmation. Fair enough. I have increased personal wealth by SAVING in Bitcoin at the right times. Bitcoin STORED the VALUE in a way that makes my old dad shake his head in amazement as if I discovered fire. So... with that in mind, forgive me for saying your opinions are being affected by narrative, rather than the realities of Bitcoin.
What else would a Store of Value be? It's pretty obvious from the name that's what it is supposed to do. The whole point is that it is not very volatile, it STORES your VALUE. If it goes up 100x then it isn't storing your value unless your living through some sort of Weimar Germany/Venezuelan level of economic catastrophe. Anything that has that kind of crazy 100x potential, has similar potential to the downside, which you are currently in the middle of learning right now.
Agree. Markets go up. Markets go down. Bitcoin is no different. The best counter argument to OP, IMO, is what market after this crunch will make the largest comeback? Bit coin went to the 50k to 60k range for a while. I can't see any evidence that it won't again. It may be a year from now or it may be next month. 🤔 All it takes is for the group think to believe it's going up, just like all the Markets. I've doubled my money in Bitcoin twice. Jumping out at a high and buying back in at a low. The only reason to jump out now would be if you believe today's price is a high. I don't believe that. Buy low, sell high. It's real simple. The Holders dream is that one day in the future Bitcoin will stabilize at a MUCH higher VALUE than the dollar. That one day dollars will be measured by bitcoin and they will spend bitcoin on purchase. THAT is the reason they hold. It seems a lot of them are in their 20's. As for us middle age gamblers, we recognize the risky opportunity and continually keep eye on which way the wind is blowing. We all say "weak hands" because we understand the group think. How it works. We all believe a dollar is worth a dollar, but inflation fucks that belief. We all know the more people believe Bitcoin will eventually be worth more in value, the larger the comparison to the dollar, the more people run to buy into the bandwagon. More buy in = greater bitcoin value. So do you think more people or less people will buy into it in the long term? That's the only question both us gamblers and the holders need to answer, IMO.
You should not be sad, you are born at the perfect time, to witness and participate in the greatest upset of the current financial system in history! Unless you born into royalty, we are all born slaves, where the fiat masters control your life thru control of the supply of the money, the thing you need to live and plan your future. With the discovery of Bitcoin, things have changed, Bitcoin represents the separation of money from state. Put another way, the ability of the slave owners / elite / government to determine your destiny. It may not seem so now, because significant change is often slow, the most important thing you can do now is to stop looking for other 'opportunities' and spend your time reading and understanding how Bitcoin will change the future and your world as you know it. Start to learn that other 'opportunities' are all flawed in one central way, their 'yield' is denominated in fiat tokens (i.e USD etc ) no matter how much interest they claim it will pay you, it percentage yield would have to keep ahead of the rate of the growing money supply otherwise you are in fact losing. Start valuing things in Bitcoin terms, don't listen to others, listen to yourself, if you buy a Bitcoin, or a fraction a Satoshi/s, you are investing in your future, a Bitcoin or Satoshi's VALUE remains the same forever 1 BTC = 1 BTC 100 years from now. As I said do your own research, read, the most important resource you have on your side is time, you are young, you have that advantage, use it wisely.
There’s no excuse not to pay dividends. That’s literally how the value of a share was determined up until tech-bros convinced gamblers it’s in their best interest. The formula for the value of a share is P = dividend/(r-g) where where p= current price, equity return, and g is growth expected by dividends. No dividends equals NO VALUE. You literally ONLY make money if you sell. In Tesla’s case it’s even worse because they have multi stock classes and the unless you’re a board member your votes don’t even count so as a share holder, you basically own an IOU that hopefully can be cashed out one day. You own nothing and you will like it.
OP didn’t really use the correct metrics either, but his article is well written, correct, and thought through. What he is talking about is PRODUCTION VALUE. If a consumer buys 1 $20 item instead of two $10 items the REAL GDP stays the same. But one business loses $10 of production value and gross sales. That mean half as much taxes are paid. However, people tend to buy some things every week no matter what the price, gas, food, diapers, medicine, electricity, water. This is where his logic twists just a bit, people will STILL buy 2# of food regardless if it’s $10 or $20, they will just find 2# of something else to eat, like tuna casserole and meatloaf instead of steak and chicken breasts. Therefore the industry providing the most value will thrive, where as the industry already overvalued will have to figure out a way to compete, and we’ll as their entire supply chain. And that is what slid past.
I don’t understand why people use economics to satisfy the value argument of crypto. Crypto has value through the energy it took to create it, which is electricity. This physics example provides the proof. Work= force X distance Force- electricity Distance- difficulty in Algorithm. Where Economics brings value to an ecosystem that has chosen said currency. Currency, itself CANNOT BE A STORE OF VALUE. Money is a store of value. Sorry for the tangent 😂 Physics brings value back to money so why in the world aren’t we using crypto.
You always have to think - "what is the VALUE that I'm buying." Is there anything underneath that actually generates value? If not, you're just speculating and hoping maybe someone else gives you more money later. Which isn't bad necessarily! But you need to understand what is going on. Ask yourself: "If nobody EVER buys this back from me, will I still be happy with this purchase?" If it is a cryptocoin or NFT - probably not. If it's, say, a house, then yes you might still be happy with the house even if nobody ever buys it from you. Even stock - though the normal way is to sell it to someone else - even if nobody buys it from you, you still have income from the business that's worth something.
>No one is going to buy the share Gurl you're tripping right now. The mere fact that the shares **still represent a portion of Tesla's assets gives it value**. All those cars and properties and machineries, not to mention the trademark and patents. They can all be traded for cash. THAT'S WHAT GIVES A SHARE ITS VALUE. >I'm not gonna list the benefits of cryptocurrency since there are too many and I'm not gonna convince u that crypto has value now or in the future because it's subjective like all things are. Of course you don't want to contribute to this mental exercise. Because this is exactly why crypto is different from a share. Simple as that.
>Actually, you could give no distribution to tokens after the depeg event, and instead only use one snapshot. The fact that post-depeg buyers are getting some of the new chain is mostly for goodwill and not necessary at all. That's fraud then. >Also Ogs werent trying to exit, and most of them couldn't anyway because they were staked for 21 days. Validators had invested hundreds of thousands of dollars to run the infrastructure. The minting mechanism worked as it was intended and inflated Luna to almost zero value in order to attempt to restore the UST peg (before eventually failing with 7 trillion coins). If they weren't trying to exit..... Where TF did trillions of coins come from that are on the open market? The ENTIRE problem IS because people exited! The algorithm was based on a closed loop..... If users were not in UST, they sell and HODL LUNA. That then would result in the inflationary forces being held in the HODLers wallets.... and not hitting the open market! The very fact LUNA death spiraled is testament to the fact that OG LUNA holders WERE dumping LUNA out into the market so as to put a line under their risk exposure and take the loss early. Does that mean EVERY OG sold.... Of course not! But tge inherent problem with ALL algorithmic stableized coins is that they ONLY function when there is TRUST and the MAJORITY are willing to hold the inflationary forces in play in their own wallets! Once enough (only needs 10-15%) break ranks and start selling, it causes a stampede for the exits and your straight into a death spiral from that point on! ALL of these algorithmic mechanisms are stable and appear to function fine..... As long as the user's TRUST. The problem is, they ALL become inherently UNSTABLE in a downturn or bear market as trust evaporates! The algo can't be coded to account for these outlier bad events without becoming unworkable for the 90% of the time the market is good. So, these outlier events get discounted and they focus on the 90%..... Then something like this happens and it's a complete failure! >I can't tell if you just have a poor understanding of the technology or if you have a good understanding and are trying to be manipulative. Either way it doesn't matter what you or I think, or if you call this fraud. Anyone can fork any blockchain at any time and based on any snapshot and they can do whatever they want with allocations. If enough people support that chain it gets value. I've got ZERO problem with a PLANNED fork based on a UPCOMING block.... That's NOT fraud! Where it becomes fraud is trying 1 option (minting trillions of new LUNA), selling tokens to new investors, when the play doesn't work out like it was hoped, retroactively chosing a historical block to do a fork from and not honouring the tokens you already sold out into the market as being of the same VALUE.... So, you print money (mint tokens), sell them claiming they are real, then after everyone bought them, decided that they are not real and will be valued less during the airdrop..... This 1 project is going to be responsible for fast tracking regulation into the crypto space..... And you better believe that what you all are doing with this fork IS a very deliberate act of fraud and it makes the printing of trillions of LUNA and selling them to new investors.... Theft by deception! Has that been gotten away with in Crypto before.... 100% it sure has! Back when regulators and governments didn't have their beady little eyes looking at this space, this type of criminal action was the norm! Things are changing though and regulators ARE watching Terra right now after all the complaints they just received from investors who lost EVERYTHING! Forking will not be a way to run away from these problems this time.... Regulators and ledgislation will force these problem to follow and be attached to LUNA v2! I'll certainly be part of the class action about the illegal weighting of the airdrop that disadvantages new LUNA holders when we bought, 1 LUNA = 1 LUNA!
I think the real issues is that these people can't understand the MONETARY VALUE the IDEA of bitcoin has. They can't fathom that a concept has real world value. A Finite, decentralised payment system has an insane amount of potential to advance societies and the ones that can see it and invest will be better off for it.
Yes, you are basically comparing apples and oranges, that's the whole thing. Nobody is "holding cash". Because it's stupid to do so. Not because of inflation or whatever, just because it earns nothing (just as holding bitcoins earns nothing as well). You do an investment. ​ And please, stop bringing up the "222000% value", you sounds like one of these scummy mobile funs trying to sell of these "INSANE VALUE PACK".
But I don't know if you remember what they said about bitcoin? It was trash and the value would go to 0... A couple of weeks ago they announced that the 'FAIR VALUE' is 37.8 K. Like they measure how much electric energy was consumed for production... They missed the big move and that hurt their feelings:)))))))
Bernie used the name of the stock market to scam. He never invested anything. That is a wrong comparison. You are also talking about the block chain as a new tech. That says nothing about about all the scams happening. This includes Terra. That says nothing about trying to make money from something that has absolutely no value. That is what is happening. That is why something can be worth 80ish dollars on Monday and worth less then 1 cent on Friday. Because it HAS NO REAL VALUE. And no we don't need a stock market on the blockchain. You REALLY think it would make environmental sense to have millions of buy and sell orders go through the blockchain? Keep dreaming. Also the "blockchain" the code is law. Tons of hacks. Tons of scams have happened. Some state hacker group in North Korea stole hundreds of millions of dollars from the "blockchain." Yeah, no. You can do it. When it all burns down around you, please do send me a DM. I do love seeing things burn.
It is the VALUE to ME. It is the value that \*I\* see in it. I've seen incredible value beyond dollaric numbers when I saw bitcoin ruling the darknet. I saw a virtual demigod in the making. I don't assign the value as some objective truth. Again it is the value as I see it in my subjective mind. I care about the service being made and given I give little meaning to what other people think the price is (especially those who rush to sell...)
Dude this is crypto, not the stock market. you lose VALUE not money, unless you sell, THEN you lose money. ​ Historically, crypto has always bounced back twice as strong after major dips, crashes whatever, don't be the guy that doesn't understand crypto. HODLERS always win. Buy the dip. this is how people become rich.
It's moving into cash. In the end people invest to make money that they want to spend on goods and services. If you don't, then all you did was give your money away. ​ This has been the Bitcoin Bear case for a long time. Bitcoin inherently doesn't provide a return in value unless you sell it, therefore, it must drop in price eventually. It lives and dies off of exuberant mob support that the next guy to buy is going to buy higher, so you can make money. That's it. That's how it accrues value. ​ In simple terms, value of a bitcoin or any other crypto is EXTRINSIC VALUE, not INTRINSIC VALUE. It has no balance sheet. It has no free cash flow. It has no dividend. I say this as someone who has traded in the crypto markets for over half a decade and run a miner. Because I know some people will say that I am uninvolved.
Just because you can send bitcoin to people doesn’t give it value. The fundamentals can not be avoided. Bitcoin may have an artificial limited supply, but I can do exactly the same thing with 1 satoshi that I can with all 21 billion bitcoin. NOTHING. Gold has value because it is limited but at the same time has utility. A store of value can not just be limited in supply, but that supply itself must have VALUE outside of price.
Bro, everyone's in crypto just to get rich. Be honest. Yeah after you've been here for a while, you start buying into ideas of a revolution and change in banking and all, but the modern banking is actually already pretty successful. Blockchain technology is new which was basically tested through cryptocurrencies. Now countries are giving out their own cbdc. Even India launched one, based on blockchain. I believe in crypto. It will not die down, at least for a decade. But in the end, the only reason bitcoin is so high is cause everyone has a consensus that it should be that high. The day that fell, it's going down. It has NO UTILITY. Charlie and Warren are basically the one's who popularized VALUE INVESTING. They invest in profit making companies who have assets under them. Bitcoin does not, therefore they just can't see the value in it.
Nope. Price is what something sells/buys/trades at. A "mutual" agreement on a purchase/trade. Value is determined by whomever. Again, I can value something higher than what the price is. I think BTCs VALUE (to me) is a 100k a coin...but the PRICE is currently $40.5k
Yes...and the market is sustained by whom? People who determine the VALUE of whatever it is. Value is absolutely subjective. If everybody thinks it has no value, then it doesnt as a whole. I mean this is how markets work. Yes, I know how NFTs work. The people who buy them don't have to, in order to place a value on them. In a general sense, I would assume the majority of NFT buyers are paying these high amounts because they see the VALUE of buying them early and selling them later....that's the buyers view of the NFTs utility. Of course there are other reasons why people buy them (scams, laundering, etc) but in order to sustain that value, others have to believe in that value as well. Again, all subjective.
Who's playing games? Purchasing a stick with no utility (to you) for $100mil, doesn't mean that someone else might not need it (and value it) to pay $100 mil. See what I'm saying? People could be buying an expensive NFT (and im thinking most of them) because there's VALUE in it...because of DEMAND. They're thinking of it as an investment because others do. Just because something doesn't have UTILITY, doesn't mean it can't have value to someone else. Take crypto for example. Generally, Joe Schmoe doesn't see the value in it...but you and I do. And that value is sustained by the rest of the crypto community. That's what dictates it's value.
You’d pay 41k for a Bitcoin?!? You’re an idiot… why would you pay $41k for a bitcoin if it’s value is only exactly $41k. You’d just be breaking even… unless you think the value of Bitcoin will increase… unless you think the current price is below the fair market VALUE… maybe even undervalued at the moment?
Its actually insane how many people have been brainwashed by that word. TECHNICALLY, all economics are a "ponzi scheme" because there is a limited amount of customers (humans on Earth). Literally the VALUE of everything is determined by who is willing to buy it. A "ponzi scheme" is nothing more than basic economics. Its akin to "conspiracy theory." A buzzword used by those in power to dismiss anything that threatens that power.
Corollary to this: stop acting as if ANY crypto moves up or down in price based on its own merits. They ALL more or less just follow the market as a whole and this is because they are ALL just speculative investments and do NOTHING OF REAL VALUE in the real world.
>By shredding it, he deflated the currency and INCREASED the value of everyone else's current USD. The TOTAL "VALUE" of dollars is the exact same. So he's showing that Bitcoin is more valuable than USD, by redistributing his wealth to other USD holders instead of to BTC holders? Sounds smart.
The fact that this is the top reply is really sad. None of you clowns know the first thing about basic fucking economics. By shredding it, he deflated the currency and INCREASED the value of everyone else's current USD. The TOTAL "VALUE" of dollars is the exact same.
> surprised but also disappointed to see the very mixed to even negative reactions The majority of people in this sub are n00bs who first got in since 2020 and are convinced that if they just sit on their stash and rotate, then with no further effort they'll some day be dragged out of their depressing hand-to-mouth existence. Anyone selling is "betraying the revolution!!!" because that means their stash just got priced at CURRENT_VALUE instead of at ONE BILLION DOLLARS per BTC. They cannot comprehend the notion that if something isn't used in commerce then it has no financial value whatsoever.
Appreciates? Bitcoin does not Appreciate..... appreciate what exactly? Companies produce goods or services that they sell, hence they make profits and can grow to produce even more goods, services and profits. THEY APPRECIATE IN VALUE. Bitcoins value is based on you selling it to a greater fool, that is speculation, not appreciation. Bitcoin is a zero sum game. In order to make money someone else HAS TO LOSE. Do you understand that, because I'm more than happy to explain it further.
The original question is show me their authority over the network. You cant seem to do that. Them being Sued doesnt give them the power to freeze transactions. Them owning a lot of tokens doesnt let them issue more tokens. They have no authority over the network, because it is decentralized.... >So name me a bunch of other companies that work on XRP that own 55% of the supply Potato IQ question. >Well when the price tanks, people won't have a need for manitaining their nodes, so they will be progressively taken off line Can you show me a correlation between node longevity and price? There is no incentive to run a node currently, price is irrelevant. Please dont tell me you think fees go to miners... Please dont be that uninformed. >Yes but meanwhile most top tens did a 10x. XRP never left the top 10... Again Price =/= VALUE. IF you bought Doge coin and it did 100000X in 1 year, does that make it a Better project? your entire argument is based around Price instead of actual VALUE... its really really dumb. >The problem with XRP is people like you who are trying to pass XRP off as some type of DLT, which it's not uhhh pardon? "Distributed Ledger Technology (DLT) refers to the technological infrastructure and protocols that allows simultaneous access, validation, and record updating in an immutable manner across a network that's spread across multiple entities or locations." - source https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/distributed-ledger-technology-dlt.asp Can you point out and please im begging you here to be specific, What makes XRP NOT DLT? lol... >So yea you have a Big bag (you bought in 2016) and I often see you come to the defense of XRP and ripple with the same tired arguments. Its not defense, its People who dont know what they're talking about claiming things and then when I ask them for proof, they have none... Again, Show me Ripples authority over the network, code, protocol, transactions etc.... you cant because it doesnt exist. This is literally the simplest thing ever to make me shut up and go away and you cant do it because you dont know what you're talking about >The fact of the matter is, is that a decentralized ledger technology shouldnt have leaders or entities that control 55% of the supply, nor be named on lawsuits. Joe lubin is involved in MULTIPLE lawsuits, I guess that makes ETH no longer decentralized right? Maybe go back to the drawing board and form an actual argument please. The SEC isnt Suing XRP because they cant, just like they couldnt Sue BTC... theres no one to sue. They Could however Sue Ripple or Bitmain...
Biden: 'Hey lets study bitcoin. Much like, say, a man may study a flock of birds on a Sunday afternoon, leisuring along, like a leaf on the window.' \*BITCOIN VALUE UP 10%\* European Union: 'Hey lets defeat a bill that would effectively ban bitcoin in our global bloc and significantly disrupt a trillion-dollar industry while simultaneously eliminating billions in wealth' \*BITCOIN VALUE DOWN 1%\* Makes sense.
refugees are losing everything. they can't use their banks, they can't use their currency. it has such low value in other countries. the people who had converted to bitcoin - still have some semblance of wealth when they arrive in other countries. this is why we're jerking off on this. crypto 100% solved a need that couldn't be fulfilled any other way. it RETAINED VALUE while they fled their country.
BTC drops a bit: GOLD IS STORE OF VALUE!!! BTC goes up 100%: All media quiet BTC drops a bit: GOLD IS STORE OF VALUE!!! BTC goes up 100%: All media quiet BTC drops a bit: GOLD IS STORE OF VALUE!!! BTC goes up 100%: All media quiet
.35% of Bitcoin wallets hold 92% of all Bitcoin that exists. Bitcoin, NFTs and digital real estate are going to take something potentially cool, which is a virtual world with actual value that can be navigated using virtual or augmented reality equipment, and they are going to be used to instantly monetize it, turn it from whatever it might evolve into organically, and instantly into a giant virtual LL Bean where perverts can virtually sexually harass men, women and children, and where meta-neutrality will never even be a concept that anyone discusses because the corporate interests will make things just shiny and consumer friendly enough that no one will even think about it IF A CRYPTOCURRENCY DOESNT FUNCTION AS A CURRENCY, AND THE ENTIRE REASON IT HAS VALUE IS THAT PEOPLE ARE SPECULATING ON THE FACT THAT IT WILL BECOME CURRENCY, THEN WHAT VALUE DOES IT HAVE? You've basically just admitted that it's worthless. And yes, things have value if we say they have value, but we say the dollar has value because the United States has products, services and natural resources that people want, and we also have the largest economy in the world, so our currency has value because our nation has value. What does Bitcoin do? Why should it be a store of value if that's it's solitary function? Blockchain isn't even as useful as Linux and Linux is free. Gold hoarding is only an issue in recessions and, as we are seeing, Bitcoin does just as poorly as stocks in economic downtimes. It tends to outpace stocks during the upticks lately, but it's not a replacement for gold. What should you do? Buy as much Amazon, Microsoft, Google, Apple and Facebook as you can. Those companies own 98% of the servers that comprise the cloud, and if Microsoft and Amazon both had to liquidate their assets tomorrow, they have a half a trillion in cash reserves between them. People will have to familiarize themselves what the term quadrillion soon because of the profits those companies will be generating before you die.
TODAY the SWAPP PROTOCOL TEAM removed 23.8% from the TOTAL SUPPLY. 114 MILLION SWAPP TOKENS removed permanently form the minted supply. TOTAL US dollar VALUE: $788, 948.76 https://etherscan.io/tx/0xde61e2ad9816b918804105e267df92ed78f7771a69451c6a953a79e1d8b8a76a https://etherscan.io/tx/0xc501bcc58df499cf30f50022b2c993d466e98463decc3dddf5d9031e078131d3
>So your basic argument is that people are not allowed to form opinions on events that they were not directly involved with because that's how capitalism works...? I think you need to go back to the drawing board with that argument lol I can see you still dont get it. Ill use smaller words. A person who creates VALUE has every right to distribute that value however they see fit. As someone who played no role in the creation of this value, you have no basis to judge its distribution as fair or unfair. Do you agree with this statement? if not you cant be helped.
Throw in Active Worlds, I used it for a long time in the 2000s. I laugh at almost every opinion on what the 'metaverse' promises because it entirely ignores what has come before, what what works, and what doesn't. I will write a full article at some point, for fun more than anything but I will expand on the virtual jacket or shirt. They will have NO VALUE. The rules of each 'metaverse' will be set by those whom use it - IE yourself. So why would you set the rules to observe someone else's ideals? Your fashion items will be free, they will be hosted by yourself of your 'host' and they will have no value across the entire internet because of this. They are infinite rather than unique.
A replicated Bitcoin isn’t real bitcoin. I don’t think you know how forks work. You can’t send it to any Bitcoin address and claim it as “Bitcoin”. People are comparing BTC to Gold not because BTC is an element, people are comparing it to gold because it is a STORE OF VALUE. Or a HEDGE against inflation.
Dude... I really don't want you anything bad...but you surely understand zero of the whitepaper or any technical studies in the world if you don't get the pizza thing... Countless people including me in the beginning are trying to tell you THE SAME... Changing the unit of anything of value, by slicing, hammering, spitting on it or in BTCs case having 8 past comma numbers (Lightning can even devide more)...THE VALUE WONT CHANGE! Get that man! I love you! Peace!!!
That's not a popular opinion in the sense that everyone thinks their crypto is in that one percent that will make it. A better way of thinking about it is the dot com bubble busting caused 78% of ALL dot com VALUE to be wiped out. A counter to that argument is that has already happened several times to crypto.
Most people don't care about "decentralization" and "faster TPS" and whatever other altcoins try to offer. The main problem that we all need to fix is STORE OF VALUE because our savings keep melting away with INFLATION and other factors. Bitcoin is king when it comes to SOV. I believe that 99.99% of altcoins will be rendered obsolete by Central Bank Stable Coins. These stables coins will be used for daily transactions and "faster TPS" and whatever other BS altcoin creators try to upsell you on. And say 99.99% instead of 100% because we may still have niche users looking for privacy or other features. Fortunately, CBSC's can never replace BTC as SOV and neither can any other altcoins. I see a future where people save in Bitcoin, transact with CBSC's, and gamble with altcoins hoping for a moonshot. Why would I gravitate to \[insert altcoin here\] when I can transact with a stable coin, backed by my government? Sure governments are NOT trustworthy, but neither is your team of coin creators. I would't care about my government's stable coin being affected by inflation, because I wouldn't hold it long enough to matter.
It isn't a currency. It's a speculative asset. If it was a currency you wouldn't be holding it, you'd be using it to buy Starbucks. Currencies DON'T STORE VALUE. I do like the word unimpeachable though. It too is incorrect as if BitCoin were "unimpeachable" there wouldn't be 20000 other tokens trying to impeach it.