VALUE

biba8163

> Banker shitcoin XRP bagholders could only dream of this being a Banker Shitcoin. Banks has no interest in XRP. JP Morgan's paper about CDBC/Stablecoins is "UNLOCKING $120 BILLION VALUE IN CROSS-BORDER PAYMENTS" why banks have no interest in XRP: - **High volatility of XRP leading to limited willingness from banks in using it to facilitate payments** - **Relatively high costs owing to spreads between fiat and XRP** https://www.jpmorgan.com/onyx/documents/mCBDCs-Unlocking-120-billion-value-in-cross-border-payments.pdf?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_little-text-block In 2024, Ripple itself also says Stablecoins provide revolutionary ways to transfer value across borders and reshape the financial world and Ripple is now using investor money to buy a company to launch their own stablecoin > Stablecoins like USDC offer a revolutionary pivot... efficiently transfer value across borders, bypassing traditional banking systems and eliminating many associated risks....Lower transaction costs compared to traditional banking. As low-fee alternatives to traditional money transfer methods, stablecoins can facilitate global transfers without foreign exchange fees. As the integration of stablecoins into the banking system continues, they promise to reshape the financial world, offering enhanced efficiency, inclusivity and innovation. This evolution is not just about adopting new technologies but is a step towards a more interconnected and resilient global financial system. https://ripple.com/reports/the-functional-evolution-of-digital-assets.pdf

CVV1

The idea of digital property where we go to work or hangout that has VALUE attached to it is incredibly stupid. We can hangout with our friends online in Fortnite for free.

biba8163

It's almost as if XRP is a pump and dump token that noobs keep falling over and over again for and now Gensler has become a scapegoat for why it also dumps... - XRP was $0.63 at the beginning of this year - XRP was $0.80 in July 2023 when they won the SEC case and bagholders were saying they were gone to moon once they win - XRP was $3.50 in 2018 **2016** > "We’ve reached a tipping point where financial institutions are moving beyond blockchain experimentation and projects to real world applications that are driving significant bank-to-bank volume,” said Ripple CEO and co-founder Chris Larsen...Ripple’s growing, global network includes 12 of the top 50 global banks, 10 banks in commercial deal phases, and over 30 bank pilots completed, among many others also using Ripple’s solutions. https://web.archive.org/web/20220518122127/https://ripple.com/ripple-press/financial-institutions-join-ripples-global-network/ Ripple **deleted** this page and all the hype and lies https://ripple.com/ripple-press/financial-institutions-join-ripples-global-network/ **2017** > Forty Seven Japanese Banks Move Towards Commercial Phase Using Ripple...Over 90 banks globally are working with Ripple, including top global banks such as Santander, Bank of America and Axis Bank. http://web.archive.org/web/20170603165808/https://ripple.com/insights/forty-seven-japanese-banks-move-towards-commercial-phase-using-ripple/ Ripple **deleted** this page and all the hype and lies **2018** > "major banks will use XRP as a liquidity tool in 2018" and "an order of magnitude dozens of banks" will be using XRP in 2019 - Brad Garlinghouse https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/05/cnbc-interview-with-brad-garlinghouse-ripple-ceo.html Look at the JP Morgan about how CDBC/Stablecoins is "UNLOCKING $120 BILLION VALUE IN CROSS-BORDER PAYMENTS" and it tells you why XRP won't be adopted by banks: - **High volatility of XRP leading to limited willingness from banks in using it to facilitate payments** - **Relatively high costs owing to spreads between fiat and XRP** https://www.jpmorgan.com/onyx/documents/mCBDCs-Unlocking-120-billion-value-in-cross-border-payments.pdf?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_little-text-block In 2024, **Ripple itself also says Stablecoins provide revolutionary ways to transfer value across borders and reshape the financial world and Ripple is now using investor money to buy a company to launch their own stablecoin** > Stablecoins like USDC offer a revolutionary pivot... efficiently transfer value across borders, bypassing traditional banking systems and eliminating many associated risks....Lower transaction costs compared to traditional banking. As low-fee alternatives to traditional money transfer methods, stablecoins can facilitate global transfers without foreign exchange fees. As the integration of stablecoins into the banking system continues, they promise to reshape the financial world, offering enhanced efficiency, inclusivity and innovation. This evolution is not just about adopting new technologies but is a step towards a more interconnected and resilient global financial system. https://ripple.com/reports/the-functional-evolution-of-digital-assets.pdf *This was after telling them in 2019 that StableCoins backed by U.S Dollar don't solve ANY problems and that XRP is the Standard bridging currency used for money transfers and remittance.* > If you give them a dollar for deposits, they’ll give you a JPM Coin that you can then move within the JPM ledger. Wait a minute, just use the dollar!" he said. "I don’t understand. If you’re just moving within the JPM ledger, and it has to be dollar-to-dollar, one-to-one backing, I don't understand what problem that solves. - Brad Garlinghouse in 2019 https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2019/03/06/ripple-ceo-brad-garlinghouse-on-jpm-coin-other-banks-wont-use-it/

swift_trout

The arithmetic is not complicated. There are 2.7 trillion dollars in circulation. That number is growing. There are 19.7 million Bitcoin There will NEVER be more than 21 million. That means that the VALUE of one Bitcoin is $136,000. The price is now $65,000. Half the value. That’s a good price.

biba8163

Here are some bookmarks and saves. **2016** > "We’ve reached a tipping point where financial institutions are moving beyond blockchain experimentation and projects to real world applications that are driving significant bank-to-bank volume,” said Ripple CEO and co-founder Chris Larsen...Ripple’s growing, global network includes 12 of the top 50 global banks, 10 banks in commercial deal phases, and over 30 bank pilots completed, among many others also using Ripple’s solutions. https://web.archive.org/web/20220518122127/https://ripple.com/ripple-press/financial-institutions-join-ripples-global-network/ Ripple scammers **deleted** this page and all the hype and lies https://ripple.com/ripple-press/financial-institutions-join-ripples-global-network/ **2017** > Forty Seven Japanese Banks Move Towards Commercial Phase Using Ripple...Over 90 banks globally are working with Ripple, including top global banks such as Santander, Bank of America and Axis Bank. http://web.archive.org/web/20170603165808/https://ripple.com/insights/forty-seven-japanese-banks-move-towards-commercial-phase-using-ripple/ Ripple scammers **deleted** this page and all the hype and lies **2018** > "major banks will use XRP as a liquidity tool in 2018" and "an order of magnitude dozens of banks" will be using XRP in 2019 - Brad Garlinghouse https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/05/cnbc-interview-with-brad-garlinghouse-ripple-ceo.html Look at the JP Morgan about how CDBC/Stablecoins is "UNLOCKING $120 BILLION VALUE IN CROSS-BORDER PAYMENTS" and it tells you why XRP won't be adopted by banks: - **High volatility of XRP leading to limited willingness from banks in using it to facilitate payments** - **Relatively high costs owing to spreads between fiat and XRP** https://www.jpmorgan.com/onyx/documents/mCBDCs-Unlocking-120-billion-value-in-cross-border-payments.pdf?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_little-text-block In 2024, **Ripple itself also says Stablecoins provide revolutionary ways to transfer value across borders and reshape the financial world and Ripple is now using investor money to buy a company to launch their own stablecoin** > Stablecoins like USDC offer a revolutionary pivot... efficiently transfer value across borders, bypassing traditional banking systems and eliminating many associated risks....Lower transaction costs compared to traditional banking. As low-fee alternatives to traditional money transfer methods, stablecoins can facilitate global transfers without foreign exchange fees. As the integration of stablecoins into the banking system continues, they promise to reshape the financial world, offering enhanced efficiency, inclusivity and innovation. This evolution is not just about adopting new technologies but is a step towards a more interconnected and resilient global financial system. https://ripple.com/reports/the-functional-evolution-of-digital-assets.pdf *This was after scamming investors and telling them in 2019 that StableCoins backed by U.S Dollar don't solve ANY problems and that XRP is the Standard bridging currency used for money transfers and remittance.* > If you give them a dollar for deposits, they’ll give you a JPM Coin that you can then move within the JPM ledger. Wait a minute, just use the dollar!" he said. "I don’t understand. If you’re just moving within the JPM ledger, and it has to be dollar-to-dollar, one-to-one backing, I don't understand what problem that solves. - Brad Garlinghouse in 2019 https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2019/03/06/ripple-ceo-brad-garlinghouse-on-jpm-coin-other-banks-wont-use-it/

GiverTakerMaker

Fink is not your friend. He is trying to convince people bitcoin is JUST A STORE OF VALUE. This false narrative suits him. If people start using bitcoin as a permissionless currency his empire crumbles.

biba8163

Ripple has been scamming people with the news that banks are on the verge of adopting XRP since 2016. People are still falling for this 8 years later. **2016** > "We’ve reached a tipping point where financial institutions are moving beyond blockchain experimentation and projects to real world applications that are driving significant bank-to-bank volume,” said Ripple CEO and co-founder Chris Larsen...Ripple’s growing, global network includes 12 of the top 50 global banks, 10 banks in commercial deal phases, and over 30 bank pilots completed, among many others also using Ripple’s solutions. https://web.archive.org/web/20220518122127/https://ripple.com/ripple-press/financial-institutions-join-ripples-global-network/ Ripple scammers **deleted** this page and all the hype and lies https://ripple.com/ripple-press/financial-institutions-join-ripples-global-network/ **2017** > Forty Seven Japanese Banks Move Towards Commercial Phase Using Ripple...Over 90 banks globally are working with Ripple, including top global banks such as Santander, Bank of America and Axis Bank. http://web.archive.org/web/20170603165808/https://ripple.com/insights/forty-seven-japanese-banks-move-towards-commercial-phase-using-ripple/ Ripple scammers **deleted** this page and all the hype and lies **2018** > "major banks will use XRP as a liquidity tool in 2018" and "an order of magnitude dozens of banks" will be using XRP in 2019 - Brad Scamminghouse https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/05/cnbc-interview-with-brad-garlinghouse-ripple-ceo.html Look at the JP Morgan about how CDBC/Stablecoins is "UNLOCKING $120 BILLION VALUE IN CROSS-BORDER PAYMENTS" and it tells you why XRP won't be adopted by banks: - High volatility of XRP leading to limited willingness from banks in using it to facilitate payments - Relatively high costs owing to spreads between fiat and XRP https://www.jpmorgan.com/onyx/documents/mCBDCs-Unlocking-120-billion-value-in-cross-border-payments.pdf?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_little-text-block In 2024, Ripple itself also says Stablecoins provide revolutionary ways to transfer value across borders and reshape the financial world and Ripple is now using investor money to buy a company to launch their own stablecoin > Stablecoins like USDC offer a revolutionary pivot... efficiently transfer value across borders, bypassing traditional banking systems and eliminating many associated risks....Lower transaction costs compared to traditional banking. As low-fee alternatives to traditional money transfer methods, stablecoins can facilitate global transfers without foreign exchange fees. As the integration of stablecoins into the banking system continues, they promise to reshape the financial world, offering enhanced efficiency, inclusivity and innovation. This evolution is not just about adopting new technologies but is a step towards a more interconnected and resilient global financial system. This was after scamming investors and telling them in 2019 that StableCoins backed by U.S Dollar don't solve ANY problems and that XRP is the Standard bridging currency used for money transfers and remittance. > If you give them a dollar for deposits, they’ll give you a JPM Coin that you can then move within the JPM ledger. Wait a minute, just use the dollar!" he said. "I don’t understand. If you’re just moving within the JPM ledger, and it has to be dollar-to-dollar, one-to-one backing, I don't understand what problem that solves. - Brad Garlinghouse in 2019 https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2019/03/06/ripple-ceo-brad-garlinghouse-on-jpm-coin-other-banks-wont-use-it/

na3than

Of course! It says "$1,000,000 VALUE" right there on the bag. Why would they lie?

AppointmentEither789

Companies that PRODUCE goods and service (VALUE) unlike bit shit fuck coin that is fools gold

zxsmart

Only a fool sells a deflationary currency to pay off debt denominated in an inflationary one. Debt is GOOD. Borrowing in an INFLATIONARY CURRENCY THAT YOU KNOW WILL LOSE VALUE, is an ABSOLUTE NO-BRAINER. AND debt is not a taxable event! I swear to god some of the people on /r/bitcoin are the most economically ignorant people =/

Rationally-Skeptical

It's needs a use case to maintain value long-term. "Protection from inflation" begs the question of "how?" A use case is how it does that. Apologies on the second point, I meant to say THE VALUE OF censorship resistance is limited. It can ultimately be constrained by cutting off the on-/off-ramps but we're aways away from that. Definitely need a more practical use case to invest. Love the tech, looking for the application.

0fficial_moderator

Fundamental analysis applies probabilities as well- it just measures different variables that are FUNDAMENTAL to the VALUE of a company.

WhiteFluff21

Yeah but whats the actual VALUE, like a stock is part a company, a partial ownership.

Yodel_And_Hodl_Mode

> Obviously, we need this. I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Bitcoin become a global currency, but it's far more important for Bitcoin to be a store of value. You said so, yourself, only you didn't realize what you were saying because you're used to thinking in dollars. You said: > It's a huge deal so that central banks and governments can't **steal our time.** Exactly. Now think it through. People say "Time is money" but that's just a silly saying. Time is actually VALUE, because time is very *valuable.* Thus, what matters most is the ability to store value. That's what Bitcoin does well. I do think Lightning - or some other layer 2 solution - will turn Bitcoin into a currency that's cheap and easy for anyone to spend, but smart people aren't going to spend it for the kind of everyday purchases where you'd use currency. Smart people are going to save their Bitcoin. If you could go to the store and pay with stocks instead of dollars, would you? Hopefully not, since the point of owning stocks is to gain value over time. For me, that's the point of owning Bitcoin: to gain value over time.

swift_trout

The one thing Bitcoin does better than any asset is HOLD VALUE. So HOLD BITCOIN. HODL. Buy more and HODL.

StatisticalMan

Is BTC value impacted by the Fed or the price in dollars? If the fed causes the price of everything to go up including BTC has the VALUE of BTC gone up?

CoolCatforCrypto

Your take on innovation and how it relates to btc is completely wrong. I am accepting your dissenting view and explaining why it is very far off. The innovation in btc is not your normal innovation like windows, the web browser, the iphone and the keurig k cup coffee machine were. The innovation of blockchain is not in tech it is in its DESIGN PHILOSOPHY: HOW EXISTING TECH IS ASSEMBLED IN A UNIQUE WAY TO DELIVER VALUE. All caps is not designed to scream at you but to point out a fundamental fact about bitcoin as a crypto and the blockchain it runs on. When you drill down you will find most of the tech that btc is built on is not all that innovative - it is off the shelf tech, again, ASSEMBLED AND DESIGNED IN A UNIQUE WAY that delivers bitcoin/blockchain uniqueness: To wit: Database sharding - 10 years old Key pair encryption - 50 years old Interplanetary File System - 10 years old State machine replication - 50 years old There's a bunch of other stuff you could list but these are the key pieces of tech. There's not much else out there that is more "elegant" than bitcoin blockchain. I don't understand what you are getting at at all here. Nothing better - more innovative - is going to replace bitcoin blockchain. And if you seek serious discussion on bitcoin you must understand bitcoin as a blockchain first. No blockchain, no bitcoin. BTC owes its existence to blockchain, not the other way around. About me: I have a small IT consulting shop, incl blockchain. I have completed two courses of study. on blockchain. One at the Blockchain Council and one at the Wharton School Univ of Penn \[exec education\]. Cheers, CCC

Full-Atmosphere-4818

Nice to see a well-thought out response. Here are my counter-responses. First, there is no evidence that inflationary currency (and the resulting lack of savings it causes among citizens), causes an economy to do better. That Keynesian philosophy is false. In fact, the best growing GDPs the last 100 years are ones that had the highest savings rates and lowest spending. The majority of the US dollars ever printed have been printed since the pandemic. How do people feel about their personal economics? Second, currencies only have value if people think it does. Supposedly, currencies represent the assets of production of a whole country. But Argentina and Turkey have runaway inflation even as their GDP grows. The VALUE of their currency is shrinking as the amount of currency grows. More of a currency is always dilutive and thus always inflationary. Thus, you need investments that have a chance of beating inflation. Third, the dollar has lost 99% of its value since going off gold in 1932 and 95% since Nixon ended the gold exchange with other nations in the 1970s. The "hardest" money does best and that means low inflation and less debasement. Nothing has or ever will beat BTC on that front. BTC is a deflationary money supply. In fact, 17% of all mined BTC has already been lost! Mostly due to lost keys. But it has not stopped the value from going up millions of percent. Although that won't continue, the fact that BTC is harder than gold, is more portable and more democratic, it does very, very well I believe it will continue to trounce the dollar for decades to come, in fits and spurts.

vario

> DISCLAIMER: $HEGE IS A MEMECOIN WITH NO INTRINSIC VALUE. DON’T RISK MONEY YOU ARE AFRAID OF LOSING. THE PRICE MAY GO UP OR IT MAY GO DOWN. WE ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PRICE OF THE TOKEN This is literally the footer of the website. No different. Good luck with the unregulated gambling.

eggerium

Private Food gardens are the first Step for recultivaton the planet and people! Vegan is Human, no need for killing. In the Garden growes the truth... No need for Believing in any hypocrite Religion! I need food, not Stress! Because of that: I hate Hypocrite Religion! The Nature teach life, the church only NONSENSE! God's PROHIBITION is bread for the church DESTROYING the planet and people, with Patronizing and Arroganz doesn't make sense!... Basic Lifestock has roots! We need to create Associations to care for us and our Environment! Not schools for following Nonsense only! Good gardens growing good life, prayers are for NOTHING, food has VALUE, the church only big words. Handwork produce Value, Mouth work produce only Stress and mess!

virus5877

because the more money they print, the less value each individual dollar has. Turns out, they can increase the SUPPLY as much as they want, but the overall VALUE is determined outside of their control. LOL

shibe5

**2010** * **Why Bitcoin Can’t Be a Currency** - The Underground Economist **2011** * **So, That’s the End of Bitcoin Then** - Forbes * **The Bitcoin Is Dying. Whatever** - Gizmodo Australia * **Why Bitcoin Will Fail as a Currency** - The Calculating Investor **2012** * **Wired, Tired, Expired for 2012: EXPIRED** - Wired **2013** * **Bitcoin Is A Remarkable Innovation, Here’s Why It Will Fail** - Salon * **From Game Over, Bitcoin. Where Is The Next Human-based Digital Currency?** - OUI Share * **Bitcoin Is A Joke** - Business Insider * **A Prediction: Bitcoin Is Doomed to Fail** - The New York Times **2014** * **An early obituary for bitcoin** - Reuters * **Bitcoin Bears Say Told You So** - Bloomberg * **The Exact Date for Bitcoin’s Final Crash to $0.00** - Wall Street Daily **2015** * **R.I.P. Bitcoin. It’s time to move on** - Washington Post * **Bitcoin Is Getting Annihilated** - Business Insider * **Five Reasons Bitcoin Revolution is Over** - Sputnik News **2016** * **Bitcoin Is Dead, Long Live the Blockchain** - The Street * **From Bitcoin’s Rallying Again—But Isn’t Getting Much Attention Anymore** - WSJ * **Bitcoin was supposed to change the world. What happened?** - Vox **2017** * **Why Bitcoin Is Worthless** - Seeking Alpha * **Bitcoin has no future because of its anonymity, SocGen CEO says** * **What is a Good Price For Bitcoin and Other Cryptocurrencies? Zero** - Jonathan Harris **2018** * **BTC will be ‘WORTHLESS and have ZERO VALUE’ in 2019** - Express * **Sorry, Bitcoin Fans. Digital Currency Is Still a Dream** - Bloomberg * **There’s a ‘decent probability’ bitcoin goes to zero, says Vanguard economist** - MarketWatch * **Bitcoin has fallen to its lowest point since November and will probably be totally wiped out** - Independent **2019** * **The END of Bitcoin as we know it** - Irish Tech News * **Treasury Secretary Seals Bitcoin’s Impending Death by a Thousand Cuts** - CCN * **Bitcoin – The end of an Era** - TradingView **2020** * **Cryptocurrency is Dead** - Finextra * **The Value of Bitcoin Will Drop to Zero** - Cointelegraph **2021** * **The Bitcoin Delusion** - The Spectator * **The fundamental value of bitcoin is zero** - Insider * **Adios Bitcoin!** - The Institutional Risk Analyst **2022** * **Crypto Is Dead** - The Spectator * **Crypto-assets Are Worth Nothing** - Politico https\:\/\/miningsyndicate\.com/blogs/news/the-most-memorable-bitcoin-obituaries-through-the-years

Spaceseeds

Redditor for 6 weeks teaching us all propaganda, sounds legit. BITCOIN IS RISKY. IT IS VOLATILE AND COULD LOSE 50% OF ITS VALUE, BUY STOCKS BECAUSE THEY DONT DO THAT. Sure buddy. Diversification, sell the winners to buy the losers. Go ahead. More sats for the rest of us

jps_

Confidently right. They both VALUE the assets they hold differently. The reason they value the assets differently is because they have to. Because one asset can't be liquidated immediately, it has a lower value (per actual ETH) than the asset that can be liquidated, and the difference is the time premium assigned to the locked interval.

Haunting-Student-756

BTC doesn’t care what u think. Tick tock next blocks. PEOPLE WHO CHOOSE FIAT AS A STORE OF VALUE WE CALL THEM POOR

PreventableMan

i'm just happy that the idjits that was screaming "HALFING IS COMING VALUE WILL BE CRAZY THIS TIME" and shown incorrect. we all knew this halfing was different

Girafferage

Honestly, I dont think the VALUE of Bitcoin will get there in that time, but I do believe the price will be there. Inflation will eat away at your loan either way - win or lose.

FinestLife

Btw the Euro depreciated 14% since 2021 so the logic is the same for the Euro. Entire point if the post is that measuring "all time high" in a currency does not necessarily mean it's VALUE is really at a new all time high, not this time anyhow.

FinestLife

Now I see your hangup. My original post, which I never re-edited said the VALUE of BTC has not even come close to the value of the last all time high. The entire issue is that the perceived ATH keeps getting put out as it now has a higher value than ever, when that is not accurate, whether you are buying a house with it now vs 2021 or a potato. It's not really arguable, it is what it is.

brennanfee

I don't have time to teach Economics 101 in forums. But one of those is about commitment to repayment of debt, and the other is the pool of available dollars. They are only related that as the pool of dollars increases, the VALUE of the outstanding debt and dollars decreases. Our "full faith and credit" is only a statement that all of our debt will be paid no matter what. They are orthogonal, and by you "equating" them indicates a level of ignorance that is troubling.

yekcowrebbaj

So basically your only argument for Dogecoin is that it is an extra volatile money substitute? You realize that “money” is defined by three qualities- medium of exchange, as a unit of counting, and STORE OF VALUE- which in theory means it does not depreciate. Currency was/is traditionally a store of value until the US Government introduced quantitative easing. Cryptocurrency, specifically Bitcoin, was created to combat unlimited inflation fiat and you have simply replaced it with a picture of a dog. There is nothing revolutionary about how you’re approaching macroeconomics and by saying you don’t want Doge to act as stable store of value you’re essentially saying you don’t want it to be actually used as currency. There is nothing good about a dollar that can swing 20% in a day, has unlimited inflation, and won’t even be close to the current inflation rate of the dollar until like 2075 or something if the model even ends up working like they want.

the_lone_unlearned

Yes, the VALUE in Bitcoin is that it is great money. It has high utility as money and is perfectly scarce, that's what you want in money. People can define what is and isn't intrinsic value any which way they want. It is meaningless. All that matters is the actual value the thing has in serving a specific purpose or purposes. Bitcoin has zero value as a component in physical technology, while Gold has value there. Bitcoin has zero value for making pretty jewelry, or making physical coins, while Gold has value there. Bitcoin has zero value as a money printer for govts and central banks, while fiat has value there (some people would say that is 'bad' value though). Bitcoin also has zero value as a place to live, or as a company that pays earnings, because it is neither of those things. What Bitcoin does have value as is digital money, and that is what everyone is using it for, so that is the only thing we need to judge it on. And anyone who actually understands Bitcoin knows it has immense value as digital money. Thus the question of intrinsic value is meaningless. The necessary question is "what is Bitcoin's value as digital money?" and the answer is that the value is enormous.

thetaleech

The ONLY aspect of gold that is superior is malleability. Silver is right there with it. Copper is malleable, but not quite as much. We are able to make copper just as thin as gold - it’s “less easy” but not in any significant way with modern tech. Copper and silver are both resistant to corrosion too. Everything you listed is true, but also true of copper (except luster) and are all just more reasons we choose copper. It’s just as good as gold but LESS RARE, LESS SHINY, AND THEREFORE CHEAPER. My entire argument is built to shut down the anticrypto crowd who says “CRYPTO IS NOT LIKE GOLD BC GOLD HAS INHERENT VALUE.” The inherent value of gold is simply not a real factor in its real world value. That is about RARITY, NOT USEFULNESS. BTC IS like gold.

Frogolocalypse

> SO VOLATILE CAN NOT BE A STORE OF VALUE. I started buying bitcoin at $400. How am I doing? Objectively.

vovouenas

man, just do your research on what a store of value actually is. This is not about who’s an expert or not on reddit. This is about education. Something SO VOLATILE CAN NOT BE A STORE OF VALUE. It is as simple as that. If it worked for you, that’s amazing! It doesn’t make it a store of value, STILL. As simple as that.

NoisePollutioner

Highly upvoted comments like this concern me. Bitcoin's competition is clearly NOT the USD or any other fiat. Bitcoin's competition is true STORE OF VALUE assets, including gold, but most importantly stocks. Stocks are, by far, the most common vehicle for storing value over long time horizons. Almost everyone buys them to fund their retirement, which is often decades away. People who point out how much better Bitcoin is than shitty fiat are missing the point. It's a strawman. Yes we know how much the USD and other fiat sucks for long term value storage. But that's not the question. The question is this: #Why is Bitcoin a better long term store of value than stocks, bonds, and real estate?

analogOnly

My biggest fear here is they pull something like "we'll give 1.5 or 2x in CBDCs what ever you give us in dollars" (meaning 1.5x or 2x the VALUE) to turn people onto it. Then they prevent people from buying BTC (or whatever they choose) with it.

WVBitcoinBoy

It keeps going up because it’s the answer to Money As Debt. It corrects the inflationary fiat system with something better. Growing pains will be bountiful. The old will not want to give up the Guard, even though it’s time to do so. Bitcoin is the next step in our planetary and human evolution. What do you think THAT is worth?? 🤷‍♂️ EVERYTHING WE VALUE ON THIS PLANET DIVIDED BY 2.1 QUADRILLION! *screaming it for the ones in the back*

djduni

Bro you lost ALL respect when you say ignorant shit like the “us vs them” mentality makes it cultlike…no…that truth is what fostered initial INTRINSIC VALUE THROUGH network effect.

o_psiconauta

You're not understanding. You're still attached to the ideal meaning of the words. They didn't wish it into existence. Is just a concept used in finance. In finance the intrinsic value of something is what it will generate as returns for the investor discounted by the risk free rate of the period. Is not related to enjoyment or any subjective measure. Is a concept. And there are methods for calculating it. But is just a concept that any financial asset has the intrinsic value of whatever they will return in the future. And people estimate the future to get a band of intrinsic value. You seem to be thinking of intrinsic value as the subjective value a person can derive from a thing or experience or whatever Wich is completely different for each person, and in that sense, sure, no thing has intrinsic value because each person perceives value differently. BUT THAT IS NOT THE CONCEPT OF INTRINSIC VALUE IN FINANCE. And in this case is not even about proof. Is an axiom that is accepted by finance and economic professionals and investors around the world. The axiom is accepted because it's obvious. It just states that the worth of an asset equals the future returns they can get to investors beyond the risk free rate. In an investing point of view, value is not subjective is just the extra money you get back from a investment.

Background-Paper-686

Tbh OP is a idiot but you are also an idiot. If you would take the slightest second to view the development progress from the past year, see what we have coming up, see how we went from 1B marketcap to 5 mil, to about 35M right now gearing up towards our next 10x, see how we have an $11MILLION dollar investor (who has over 100M in crypto assets) then you wouldn't make such uniformed uneducated comments and wouldn't compare a coin like Catgirl in your mind to a coin like Pepe or Wif (NO VALUE WHATSOEVER). DUMBASS.

RedditxSuxx

Guys, there's NO INTRINSIC VALUE. THerEs No IntRINsic ValUE! THHEERessse noooOO inTrIinnSIICC VALUe bfkdnskdndksmzn 🤮🤮🤮

CantFeelMyFaceNo

Lol imagine if everyone in the world did this, took out a loan to buy Bitcoin. Imagine how much VALUE would be generated from litterly nothing. Infinite money glitch achieved

Buttcoinmodssuck

Michael Saylor is not the CEO of Microstrategy. That’s a basic fact that tells me you haven’t done your research. If you have been in crypto (which isn’t Bitcoin but that another conversation) since 2013 and you STILL don’t UNDERSTAND that Bitcoin is digital property and the VALUE of that, then it’s hopeless. Even just reading the Bitcoin standard should’ve given you an idea of Bitcoin’s value.

am-i-a-peepee

Not really bitcoin, but the fact that people are too stupid to understand and have a hard time grasping what it is. IT’S A DIGITAL CURRENCY THAT OPERATES ON A DECENTRALIZED NETWORK CALLED BLOCKCHAIN THAT ALLOWS FOR PEER TO PEER TRANSACTIONS WITHOUT THE NEED FOR INTERMEDIARIES LIKE BANKS, AND ITS SCARCITY IS ENFORCED BY ITS CODE, MAKING IT A STORE OF VALUE AKIN TO DIGITAL GOLD. All summed up in one sentence and these dumb mfs still won’t get it.

kungfu1

Bitcoin in a nutshell during a bull run: ITS GOING TO $1000000000000000 WHEN WILL IT EVER STOP BITCOIN MAY JJST REACH A NUMERICAL VALUE SCIENTISTS HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE! !! Bitcoin in a nutshell during a bear market: WHATS HAPPENING WHY IT NO GO BRRRRRRRRRR MY LIFE IS RUINED

JnyQest

Everyone who has been screaming cycle cycle cycle is a 12 year old at best... lol... the past will never be the future again... if BTC IS A STORE OF VALUE.. buy when you can... hold for as long as you can...

GrandioseEuro

I bet a lot of people who invested in [ASSET WHOSE VALUE HAS NOT GONE UP] wished they invested in [ASSET WHOSE VALUE HAS GONE UP]. _Brought to you by the 20/20 Hindsight Gang_

PopFirm5291

10 Mil per coin or more is the TRUE VALUE of Bitcoin

OlderAndWiserThanYou

> the purpose of Bitcoin doesn't change whatever the price of Bitcoin Ah what? This Bitcoin's (BTC) purpose is STORE OF VALUE, so the price does seem to matter. BTC now just the hooker at a frat party. There's no "deeper meaning" here. That's now elsewhere, if anywhere at all.

PaulVanByte

Mr topsmart why are u wasting time for such a dumb head as me? Do u NEED a proof of your ego or your VALUE?

callebbb

Okay? How much money is buried and never recovered? How much gold was looted, buried and never recovered? Perhaps the only issue you have is that this number is auditable with Bitcoin, while the other situations are not. Ultimately, if the cap of Bitcoin supply was 1 Bitcoin, we could just add more decimal places to increase divisibility. The amount of Bitcoin in circulation doesn’t matter. The nominal number could 21 thousand, 21 million, or just 21, for all I care. It simply doesn’t matter. I still disagree completely with you. More REALISED VALUE has been lost to centralized solutions like MTGOX, FTX, Celsius, etc, than lost seed phrases. Sadly, the whole argument is built on an assumption that the 10 year or older coins are all lost, which is a lofty assumption. I know one thing. Self custody is the only way to protect one’s assets from government overreach and confiscation. They did it with Gold…

callebbb

You’re valuing the lost coins at today’s prices, rather than their value at the time of acquiring. Trust me, more VALUE will be lost due to centralized authorities fractional lending, insider theft, and other counterparty risks, than losing one’s keys.

NaplesBeach_4Evah

Dbuk….. I’ve never thought about price/value and I’m learning (I hope) from you. In your post I’m replying to….. if the VALUE of money were to go down, then a product’s price would expect to go up (because the PRODUCT hasn’t lost value, so more money would be needed to buy it?). Start my day off with a gold star…. Am I right?

Afraid-Wafer-140

After this I won't further engage in pointless conversations like these. But do give you a short overview: The course of stocks and major cryptos, such as bitcoin, does not only move up or down due to factual changes (say: a company brings out a new product and will now have higher profits or BTC mining rate decreasing due to a halving). They also change (upwards or downwards) due to the psychology of people. If people expect a rise or a fall the market will move too, due to a rise or a fall in demand and / or supply. (Eg. dogecoin going up after a tweet of elon musk or Boeing stocks going up when a new middle east crisis flammes up (due to people ANTICIPATING a rise in the VALUE of said company). With the upcomming halving event we are touching BOTH these factors. An inside reaction (decreased supply due to halving) and an external factor (people EXPECTING a rising course and thus buying BTC in said ANTICIPATION (= a rise in demand + a decline in supply). Considering these two factora are not contradictory, it's highly unlikely that they would cancel each other out and thus not have any result at all. Rather it's highly likely, and part of the nature of markets, that an event like that WILL have an effect on the valuation of BTC (or the exchange rate of BTC to USD if you will).

Left_Ad_7955

Did you use an active management protocol like Gamma ? Their "management" of concentrated liquidity/CL pair (uniswap v3) made me loose money on my LP because of rebalancing, and they dare say it's because I didnt stake the LP (so no rewards but I still should get fees + NOT LOOSING VALUE IN PUMP...). TLDR: I hate Gamma and concentrated liquidity v3 pools for volatile assets.

Constant-Ad-4172

Bitcoin will keep on rising. It is a STORE OF VALUE. Get rid of your debt, then come back to Bitcoin. Wish you the best bro 🙏🏻

Corbimos

Yes it does in the new paradigm bitcoin created. You dont own the bitcoin because you dont own the keys. FULL STOP. Not your keys, not your coins. Hypothetically, lets say I had $1M worth of bitcoin in an ETF and they were hacked and lost all of it. How much of that value would i get back? At the most i'd get the FDIC insurance on it. That's like 200k. What other asset do you "own" that works like that? The money in your bank account that is an IOU from the bank. YOU DON'T OWN BITCOIN IN AN ETF. YOU OWN AN IOU FOR USD VALUE OF BITCOIN. Why is this so hard to understand in a bitcoin sub? I'm fine with poeple wanting to own ETFs, but they aren't owning bitcoin.

Corbimos

Yes it does in the new paradigm bitcoin created. You dont own the bitcoin because you dont own the keys. FULL STOP. Not you keys, not your coins. Hypothetically, lets say I had $1M worth of bitcoin in an ETF and they were hacked and lost all of it. How much of that value would i get back? At the most i'd get the FDIC insurance on it. That's like 200k. What other asset do you "own" that works like that? The money in your bank account that is an IOU from the bank. YOU DON'T OWN BITCOIN IN AN ETF. YOU OWN AN IOU FOR USD VALUE OF BITCOIN. Why is this so hard to understand in a bitcoin sub? I'm fine with poeple wanting to own ETFs, but they aren't owning bitcoin.

Sure_Hedgehog4823

There is no bias. I asked you to prove the economy is doing well, not by showing me people agree with you but by proving we are operating more efficiently (ie the economy is improving or good). Of course this would be impossible because it’s not the case. The US and the businesses that run it are simply increasing the VALUE for shareholders by taking on DOUBLE the debt to provide the “growth” you are so fascinated with. Soon we will need to utilize TRIPLE the debt to provide that same growth & even then people like you will say look ! We are growing ! The economy is great. But anybody who understands balance sheets knows there is no way out of this and at some point we will not be able to 5x 10x 20x our debt to maintain a measles 3% GDP growth excuse me 2.5%. Does this make sense?

Constant-Ad-4172

In a short period of time, yes, BTC is quite volatile. But if we are talking long term, say 5-10 years, It performs MUCH better than gold and is a better investment. The way you have set up your portfolio is quite good. You are maximizing profits yet remaining safe and not exposing yourself to too much risk. Nothing wrong with liking shiny things. I like em too! But when talking about assets and money, you shouldn’t take into account their visual properties. Visual properties have nothing to do with STORE OF VALUE and therefore this post. This is what many people in this comment section don’t understand.

Constant-Ad-4172

1. I never said it has no uses. 2. I said it is not a good STORE OF VALUE compared to bitcoin. 3. Follow the discussion. You are making the same exact point as others. 4. I love fast cars. I wouldn’t use them as a STORE OF VALUE tho. 5. A gold watch has value that is assigned to it by its owner. But this is not the value I’m talking about. 6. I’m not back tracking. You’re not understanding my point.

Constant-Ad-4172

You’re still not getting it sir. Like I said, gold has many uses and might even have many more in the future. But this does NOT make it a good STORE OF VALUE. Bitcoin does a better job at being a store of value which is very important for our economy to work. Bitcoin in itself has no value at all, but in a large community when used as a store of value, it is perfect. It does an amazing job of storing value across time and space.

CryptoNerdSmacker

Ripple made it very clear from the start, they intend to move VALUE at the speed of INFORMATION. Through XRPL and XRP they are making this happen.

Tropic_Tsunder

value can be created artificialy. intrinsic value is a natural base property of anything. Like how a fancy steak at a steakhouse might cost 100$ and provide 1000 calories of nutrition to a person. but you could buy that same 1000 calorie steak from a butcher for, say, 25$ and cook it yourself. So despite the VALUE of that steakhouse dinner being 100$, in terms of foods most basic core use (providing nutrition to sustain life), the steakhouse dinner has no more INTRINSIC VALUE to human survival over the 25$ steak you cook yourself. they both provide you with 1000 calories of sustinence, so at their core one does not have any more or less absolute value to survival over the other. they both provide equal nutrition keep you alive. so the 75$ difference between the 25$ steak you buy at the butcher and cook yourself, and the 100$ steakhouse steak is purely artifical value. that value is created through having fancy decor and nice candle on the table and whatnot. But the basic core value of that 100$ steakhouse dinner is no better at helping you survive than the base cost of the steak you make yourself. Sure, there is obviously value in a nice dining experience. proven by the fact that we have nice dining experiences. but if society collapsed and you were barely able to survive and were on the verge of starvation, you would never trade the shirt on your back for 1 fancy 100$ steakhouse dinner when you could instead trade it for 4 dinners worth of steak to cook yourself. thats the intrinsic value. you will always need food to survive, and if it really came down to it on a deserted island, 4 steaks are better than 1 steak, which is why intrinsically the value of the fancy steak is not really any more than the plain steak. same would apply to designer jeans VS plain costco brand jeans. sure, the designer jeans have more value because of branding and advertising and whatnot, but the core base function of clothes are to protect us from the elements. if you were a homeless person who was cold every night and didnt have any pants, would you would never pay 5x more for the jeans with the fancy logo on them over the plain jeans without the branding. because the intrinsic value of jeans is keeping you warm and protected, and the fancy jeans dont serve that function any better. They have more value artifically in society, but if society changed or collapsed they would lose that value. whereas the costco jeans would always have that same base intrinsic value from the real function the serve you at their core.

Realistic-Guard-9854

Admit that it's true that it has no intrinsic value like houses or gold. But that's because this wasn't designed to serve like houses or gold. It's supposed to work as a cross-national currency. A form of money that doesn't need government approval to be sent across borders. A form of money that can be carried in human memory, which itself is a revolution. For the first time in human history, men don't have to carry anything but 12 seed phrases in their head to transfer vast amounts of wealth anywhere in the world. There is no money or asset like that. People, including Bitcoiners, too often overlook this feature, which on its own has massive value in a globalizing world of commerce and wealth and where political volatility and uncertainty is raising demand for an asset that can easily and safely store and move value. This is a fact so can't be disputed. But you could also argue that just an entry in the bitcoin network -- which is essentially what it means to own bitcoin -- produces no income or cannot be directly traded for real goods and services. That's also true. (Unless governments endorse bitcoin, I doubt that will ever happen. And if it did happen, bitcoin is deflationary, meaning it's foolish to pay it for items that depreciate in value while bitcoin will appreciate in value due to its limited amount.) But you can still sell your bitcoin to buy things just as you would sell houses or gold to buy things. People exchange money for bitcoin and it's a sprawling network of tens of millions of people that forms the market for bitcoin. In other words, it's fungible and more so than houses or gold. Besides, bitcoin is an asset and store of value. Why would you for example pay houses and gold to buy consumer goods? That's silly. But if you really wished to make money by selling bitcoin, it's much easier to do so than with houses or gold. So bitcoin has all the strengths of a currency, a house and gold, but to a partial extent if you understand what I mean. It has the characteristics of a currency in that it can transferred easily but can't buy items (yet). It shares the limited nature with houses and gold, but it doesn't produce a roof over your head or a shiny something that mankind have also mentally and industrially put store in. That's why it's an extremely controversial thing. Proponents will focus on the strengths, opponents will on weaknesses. But at the end of the day, it's the market that determines its value and that's shown through the price. There's a gap between value and price, but they almost always self-correct to converge and we're seeing the price go up continuously because people believe it will go up. People who see value will believe the price will go up and those who don't will bet the price will go down. That's natural. But a foolish thing to do is to overlook the strengths and focus on the negatives. In my view, as long as the bitcoin network grows, the value of bitcoin will go up, WHETHER IT HAS VALUE OR NOT. After all, it's just a ledger, a notebook where people put their names to claim ownership. And so are fiat currencies. Bitcoin just protects the value you've created better because it doesn't inflate or get manipulated by people more powerful than you. So I'd put some of my wealth in bitcoin as a hedge.

_artemisdigital

Here is my modest attempt to answer you. The only thing that's not "backed by anything" in this scenario, are the brain cells of the people making those claims. There isn't a single person, that ACTUALLY KNOWS how bitcoin works, and how money today works, that would make such claims, because at this point, it would be like claiming the earth is flat. # BITCOIN It's backed by: * Billions of dollars of worldwide unstoppable physical computer infrastructure (miners). * oh and also... fucking Maths (cryptography). It literally provides the same value / service as the internet, but for money. Internet is a physical network infrastructure that lets us exchange information. Bitcoin does the same but for value. You exchange value in a cheap, bordeless, censorship resistant, inclusive way. No government can stop it, and the network doesn't discriminate. It doesn't care about Gender, wealth, nationality, being banked or unbanked, or even being a human (because computer programs can also use blockchain networks). The only thing that matters is that you pay the network fees. That's why MOST of the adoption comes from Third World countries, especially those with extreme levels of inflation, or where most people are unbanked, or war zones like Ukraine. Of course, privileged, self-centered ignorant, and arrogant westerners, will be quick to ignore all that, and plebs will blindly repeat the propaganda poured into their ears by an elite social class that has been robbing them blind for fucking decades, through inflation. Your grandpa's salary alone, could buy a house for your grandma and 4 kids without working 40 years. Wake the fuck up. # VALUE Wtf is value ? Value is what people decide it is, and I'll prove it to you. * Some people think value is The *"exchange value"* aka the price (supply vs demand). * Others think it's the *"intrinsic value"* aka how actually provably and undeniably useful it is, like drinkable water, food, energy. Some people also think; *"During the Gold standard era; the US dollar used to be actually valuable because it was backed by gold, which does have intrinsic / real value !"* Mfcker - Gold doesn't have more intrinsic value than fucking sand on the beach. It has pathetically low manufacturing applications compared to cheaper metals like aluminum, iron, or copper, and jewels are 100% useless by definition. The truth is, oxygen and water are much more useful and have a much higher intrinsic value than gold or diamonds. Yet we "value" gold and diamonds more than water. **That's because diamonds and gold are RARE**. Scarcity is often used to determine value, even though it doesn't make sense. There are precious stones rarer than diamonds, yet nobody gives a shit about them. They cost nothing. So not only the US dollar today is worth jack shit, BUT EVEN during the gold standard, if we're fully intellectually honest, it was completely nonsensical to argue that it was *"backed by real value"* as if fucking gold had any real value to begin with. Let me throw you in a desert to starve, and then we'll see if you prefer a gold bar, or a bottle of water and a cheeseburger after 3-4 days... TLDR --> People DECIDED that gold was gonna be the cultural big winner of precious metals, thousands of years ago. # # The US Dollar & FIATs It's FIAT. It's shit. It has infinite supply. It's backed by nothing. Fugazzi. Vaporwave. *"but, but, muuurh duurh it's backed by the US economy and the US military !!"* Really ? Well then can I get some piece of that military power and economy if I exchange it at a desk in a bank ? No. You don't get shit in return, because it isn't worth shit aside than the belief you put in it. If a country refuses to transact with your USD as a currency, you're fucked because FIAT is toilet paper. In fact, toilet paper is better because I can wipe my ass better with it. Banknotes are too slippery. You think *"not using the USD as a currency"* is unrealistic ? Russia now forces what they call "unfriendly" countries, to buy their natural gas, by paying in Rubles. Germans rely heavily on gas to produce energy for their manufacturing industry, which is the pillar of their economy. They don't have nuclear power plants like the French, to offset a gas shortage. So they are ROYALLY FUCKED now. ​ # CONCLUSION People who ask you that question are not just people who don't understand how bitcoin works. It's mostly that they don't understand how money works. They have a much bigger problem. But that's the beauty of bitcoin and crypto. It forced ALL OF US to question a system we took for granted. It opened our eyes. It opened mine.

Aggravating-War-2753

The only thing that gives any currency any value is the fact someone will accept it as resolution to a transaction. That being said bitcoin not only can be used to trade back into most mainstream currencies giving it VALUE as a wealth security, in the case of your own currency going kaput, but bitcoin also can actively at this moment be used to buy things directly and is backed by one of the most secure electronic monetary systems that has ever been created. There are entire countries that have shipped antminers to their citizens to work as home heating funded by the government, El Salvador has created a self sufficient mining operation fueled by the power of their volcanos proving that there are already enough vested interests involved, even in the early stages of crypto before mass adoption has even started, showing it is feasible that even after the last btc is mined (which would be after all of our lifetimes) there will be enough vested interest into the sustainability of the project that people/corporations/governments would continue to mine btc just for the sake of securing their own wealth and prosperity making it one of the only currencies ever to have a potential of worldwide corporate support and competitive accumulation which is exactly why it is compared to gold or even above it given that we never know when they may make a particle manipulator using the Higgs boson to create as much gold as they wish but that is a talk for another time

mossgard007

Bitcoin at $500K means little when bread is $200 a loaf. This might not mean your Bit is increasing in VALUE, it could also mean the dollar has lost almost ALL of it's real buying power.

mehoart2

FFS stop ! You're getting upset about people that have NO VALUE in your life... and then you're subjecting all of to those people. Leave them alone and for fucks sake don't repost shit.

Buttcoinmodssuck

You don’t understand what money is and you don’t understand the concept of SCARCITY. If you understood money and SCARCITY you would see WHY 12 institutions want in on Bitcoin. Bitcoin requires 100 hours of studying to begin to grasp its value. You haven’t studied Bitcoin. This post is a prime example of why most retail is “thousand dollar net worthers” you don’t know how to accurately evaluate the VALUE of an asset or investment. There are financial analysts creating charts that value Bitcoin currently at 500k and you think you’re smarter than them. Smh And the funniest part is you provided no actual evidence for why Bitcoin can’t get to 1M, your belief has no actual statistics to back it. You have a limiting paradigm and that will lead to you making bad investments

waldito

>"BITCOIN ACTUALLY IS JUST MEASURING INFLATION. THE VALUE OF BITCOIN IS GOING UP CAUSE THE VALUE OF OUR DOLLARS IS GOING DOWN." \-Jeff Booth

Admirable-Style4656

a currency (bitcoin included) only has value compared to other things. hence the term 'currency PAIRS'. so the VALUE of bitcoin goes up COMPARED to other things, ie USD, gold, real estate, etc.

Historical-Bother-20

This is one of the most stupid FUD I have ever seen. Apart from the fact that Blackrock scooping up ALL the BTC would drive the price going parabolic, theoretically, even if the daily worldwide trading volume was 1 BTC (representing billions of dollars) and BR having 99,99% of alls BTC, miners would still be rewarded with BTC (fixes amount) and fees. The number of BTC transacted per block is irrelevant. What is relevant is the VALUE in each block and the fees people are willing to pay. What is this?

IcyMasterPeas

The whole POINT of BITCOIN is to absolutely remove 3rd party involvement and put that power into the hands of the holder (HODL!) of the asset. While an ETF may be useful in increasing the VALUE of the asset, it has nothing to do with possession.

FairBlamer

> OP doesn’t think there’s ANY dollar value BTC could reach that he would consider consciously selling at, but he admits he’ll sell for USD when he needs to buy something in USD. You’re being intentionally obtuse. I’ve already explained this above, but here you go again (with caps so maybe you can read it this time): OP will not sell Bitcoin JUST FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF ACQUIRING SOME SPECIFIC AMOUNT OF ANOTHER CURRENCY SUCH AS USD. OP will absolutely sell Bitcoin in exchange for another currency IF AND ONLY IF OP WANTS TO BUY A SPECIFIC ASSET FOR WHICH THE MERCHANT DOES NOT ACCEPT BITCOIN BUT INSTEAD DOES ACCEPT SOME OTHER CURRENCY. Therefore, the answer to “will you sell when Bitcoin reaches $100k” is “no I will not sell JUST BECAUSE Bitcoin reaches some arbitrary USD value; I will only exchange my Bitcoin for another currency IF AND WHEN I DETERMINE I REQUIRE THAT CURRENCY FOR SOME OTHER PURPOSE THAT CANNOT BE FULFILLED BY BITCOIN YET BECAUSE NOT EVERYONE IN SOCIETY UNDERSTANDS BITCOIN’S VALUE YET” In other words, there must be some FINAL END ASSET which OP desires which cannot be acquired with Bitcoin because the merchant does not accept Bitcoin as payment yet, before OP will make the determination to part ways with his Bitcoin in exchange for some other currency (such as USD). This is NOT a contradiction and you have NOT provided any counter arguments to this line of reasoning whatsoever. Try again.

Jacked_1

\> Not everyone who is interested in owning crypto is interested in self custody. Most dumbass shit I've heard in a while. If you're not interested in **self-custody**, you're not interested in **owning** either. Jesus fuck. It's by not realizing you're contradicting yourself that makes it easier to just push custodial solutions rather than help develop more accessible self-custody and taking the time and proof-of-work to educate. If the average person can't even be bothered to read a 9-page whitepaper on the simplicity of how it works and take an hour to understand how to secure what is theirs, then they likely don't deserve to own it in the first place. Look at FTX, they're now breaking ToS to credit back investors in the FIAT VALUE at the time of bankruptcy. This is when 1BTC != 1 BTC - And it'll only happen if you DON'T take custody. If you think ETFs are any different, after everything's that's happened with the financial system in the past 50 decades, you're still just as brainwashed.

CointestMod

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is a Cosmos con-argument written by gnarley_quinn. > > THE ANTI-SHILL FOR COSMOS: > INFLATION - Much too high. Staking rewards do not offset the supply increase. > There is a significant discrepancy between the inflation calculated by Messari and CoinMarketCap versus the stated inflation from the various Cosmos ecosystem scanners. > Whether it is because of some hidden lock mechanic for some tokens, and since these values are suppose to represent the circulating supply, it is not a good look for investors to have to justify why the stated inflation does not match the calculated one. > The staking rewards are averaged at 21.57% which is below the calculated inflation value, but above the stated inflation value. The staking rewards claimed on the COSMOS website also state the average APY is less than ten percent, which is significantly lower than the stated inflation. > There is a different incentive to holding which is airdrops. Depending on snapshots, you could get lucky with an airdrop that goes ballistic. > > > SOURCE INFLATION SUPPLY TODAY SUPPLY LAST YEAR > Messari 26.60 % 286,370,297 226,186,564 > Coinmarketcap 26.66 % 286,370,297 226,127,431 > Mintscan 13.82 % 313,077,417 Not provided > Atomscan 13.82 % Not provided Not provided > Cosmoscan 13.81 % 319,984,721.29 Not provided > UTILITY - Limited use. There is no reason to hold the token other than speculation > There is actually very little utility for the ATOM token. By staking ATOM, you are able to vote in Cosmos Hub governance decisions, but that is about it. There doesn't seem to be much reason to actually hold it other than it might go up or down and thus you could sell it. For context, other projects require their token to be used for fees or NFT sales. According to cryptofees, the COSMOS chain doesn't seem to actually make any money, the projects built on it do - which still doesn't seem to give a reason to hold ATOM. > DAILY ACTIVITY - It is a mystery! > Try as I might, I could not find statistics anywhere about how many addresses are actually being used on the COSMOS chain. To me, this is a massive red flag. I can find transactions on several sites quite easily, but not being able to find statistics showing me the total number of wallets created, and what percentage of them are currently being used seems impossible. This is a massive issue in terms of transparency on the chain. > Transactions > For what its worth, the average transactions seems fairly consistent, but until I can see the number of wallets that are active, I have no way of knowing if any of these are real users, bots, or just staking rewards. > MARKETCAP DOMINANCE - Falling all year > Obviously the entire crypto asset class is down this year, but if you compare like for like, you can still get a sense of whether the token is holding up well or not. > The marketcap dominance for COSMOS is roughly half of what it was at the beginning of the year. Reaching a top of around 0.6 % of the Crypto market in February, it now sits at 0.3 %. All altcoins will lose dominance in a bear market, but you would want the crypto to hold its own in the class as much as possible. Dropping 50% is not a good thing. > The dominance picked up prior to the announcement of 2.0, but has since fallen away again. > Marketcap dominance > TOTAL VALUE LOCKED - Where is it? > This value helps understand how many people are staking COSMOS and in a sense how commited investors are to the project. Yet once again this is a figure that is difficult to ascertain. > According to DefiLlama, there is no reported TVL directly for the ATOM token. Once again, they list all the projects built on top of the blockchain. The bonded tokens provided on mintscan also seem to correlate to this value. The highest individual TVL seems to CRONOS or KAVA, but I personally dont believe the locked tokens on an individual project on a blockchain should count towards the TVL on another chain. This is not necessarily a bad thing about the TVL for the ecosystem, but it begs the question again, what is the point of holding the ATOM token? > DECENTRALISATION - Some validators have too much control of the network > There are currently \~175 validators which is gives a Nakamoto Co-efficient of just 7. This is roughly the same level of decentralisation as Binance and is a terrible score. COSMOS really needs to increase the numbers of validators quickly because the distribution of tokens across the staking validators is a significant risk. > Nakamoto Coefficient > BIGGEST COMPETITION - Polkadot still higher in most cases > All cryptos are essentially in some sort of competition with each other. Due to the rationale, goals and purpose the blockchain, the biggest competitor to COSMOS is likely POLKADOT. > Again, the crypto asset class is down, by comparing marketcap dominance, Polkadot is still more than double the marketcap of COSMOS. > While Polkadot actually has about half the number of validators as COSMOS, the staking mechanism results in a much better Nakamoto-Coefficient of 85. This means Polkadot is 12 times more decentralised than Cosmos. > \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* > CONCLUSION: > Holding the ATOM token is pretty much only for speculation - you may get some free stuff or see the price rise. > TLDR: Just read the bold headlines ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find submissions for other topics.

Digital_Scarcity

Wrong and misleading - this meme appears to be the corruption of the actual metric that BTC settles more VALUE in USD terms than tradfi networks, not TPS. That's what L2s like lightning are for. The base chain scarcity and security problem is solved, now we're solving scaling.

malte_brigge

>If "x" happens 20 years from when I saved it, IT SHOULD HAVE THE SAME VALUE AS WHEN I EARNED IT. I hate rampant inflation too, but you're ignoring the fact that the roofer can achieve this – or get close to it – by putting that money in a high-yield savings account like Ally or Discover. He can make a return that at least keeps him on-par with inflation, or close, without needing to invest a dime.

Jub-n-Jub

Man, that's a rough statement to read. What kind of just system would punish people that try to save? These same people are the ones that are able to recover from unexpected expenses. You know, because they had been putting away money just in case there is an unexpected expense. And then to incentivize gambling is also disgusting. If I put in an honest days labor roofing I should be able to put the value of that labor aside to pay for my child's "x". If "x" happens 20 years from when I saved it, IT SHOULD HAVE THE SAME VALUE AS WHEN I EARNED IT. To then tell that roofer that he needs to learn how to invest so he doesn't go broke is criminal. No different than giving someone a paycheck, that they earned, and telling them that they will lise it all unless they take it to the casino. Fiat is slavery.

CointestMod

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is a Cosmos con-argument written by gnarley_quinn. > > THE ANTI-SHILL FOR COSMOS: > INFLATION - Much too high. Staking rewards do not offset the supply increase. > There is a significant discrepancy between the inflation calculated by Messari and CoinMarketCap versus the stated inflation from the various Cosmos ecosystem scanners. > Whether it is because of some hidden lock mechanic for some tokens, and since these values are suppose to represent the circulating supply, it is not a good look for investors to have to justify why the stated inflation does not match the calculated one. > The staking rewards are averaged at 21.57% which is below the calculated inflation value, but above the stated inflation value. The staking rewards claimed on the COSMOS website also state the average APY is less than ten percent, which is significantly lower than the stated inflation. > There is a different incentive to holding which is airdrops. Depending on snapshots, you could get lucky with an airdrop that goes ballistic. > > > SOURCE INFLATION SUPPLY TODAY SUPPLY LAST YEAR > Messari 26.60 % 286,370,297 226,186,564 > Coinmarketcap 26.66 % 286,370,297 226,127,431 > Mintscan 13.82 % 313,077,417 Not provided > Atomscan 13.82 % Not provided Not provided > Cosmoscan 13.81 % 319,984,721.29 Not provided > UTILITY - Limited use. There is no reason to hold the token other than speculation > There is actually very little utility for the ATOM token. By staking ATOM, you are able to vote in Cosmos Hub governance decisions, but that is about it. There doesn't seem to be much reason to actually hold it other than it might go up or down and thus you could sell it. For context, other projects require their token to be used for fees or NFT sales. According to cryptofees, the COSMOS chain doesn't seem to actually make any money, the projects built on it do - which still doesn't seem to give a reason to hold ATOM. > DAILY ACTIVITY - It is a mystery! > Try as I might, I could not find statistics anywhere about how many addresses are actually being used on the COSMOS chain. To me, this is a massive red flag. I can find transactions on several sites quite easily, but not being able to find statistics showing me the total number of wallets created, and what percentage of them are currently being used seems impossible. This is a massive issue in terms of transparency on the chain. > Transactions > For what its worth, the average transactions seems fairly consistent, but until I can see the number of wallets that are active, I have no way of knowing if any of these are real users, bots, or just staking rewards. > MARKETCAP DOMINANCE - Falling all year > Obviously the entire crypto asset class is down this year, but if you compare like for like, you can still get a sense of whether the token is holding up well or not. > The marketcap dominance for COSMOS is roughly half of what it was at the beginning of the year. Reaching a top of around 0.6 % of the Crypto market in February, it now sits at 0.3 %. All altcoins will lose dominance in a bear market, but you would want the crypto to hold its own in the class as much as possible. Dropping 50% is not a good thing. > The dominance picked up prior to the announcement of 2.0, but has since fallen away again. > Marketcap dominance > TOTAL VALUE LOCKED - Where is it? > This value helps understand how many people are staking COSMOS and in a sense how commited investors are to the project. Yet once again this is a figure that is difficult to ascertain. > According to DefiLlama, there is no reported TVL directly for the ATOM token. Once again, they list all the projects built on top of the blockchain. The bonded tokens provided on mintscan also seem to correlate to this value. The highest individual TVL seems to CRONOS or KAVA, but I personally dont believe the locked tokens on an individual project on a blockchain should count towards the TVL on another chain. This is not necessarily a bad thing about the TVL for the ecosystem, but it begs the question again, what is the point of holding the ATOM token? > DECENTRALISATION - Some validators have too much control of the network > There are currently \~175 validators which is gives a Nakamoto Co-efficient of just 7. This is roughly the same level of decentralisation as Binance and is a terrible score. COSMOS really needs to increase the numbers of validators quickly because the distribution of tokens across the staking validators is a significant risk. > Nakamoto Coefficient > BIGGEST COMPETITION - Polkadot still higher in most cases > All cryptos are essentially in some sort of competition with each other. Due to the rationale, goals and purpose the blockchain, the biggest competitor to COSMOS is likely POLKADOT. > Again, the crypto asset class is down, by comparing marketcap dominance, Polkadot is still more than double the marketcap of COSMOS. > While Polkadot actually has about half the number of validators as COSMOS, the staking mechanism results in a much better Nakamoto-Coefficient of 85. This means Polkadot is 12 times more decentralised than Cosmos. > \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* > CONCLUSION: > Holding the ATOM token is pretty much only for speculation - you may get some free stuff or see the price rise. > TLDR: Just read the bold headlines ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find submissions for other topics.

maxcoiner

What you're really asking them to do is to VALUE bitcoin over fiat. That's a hard ask for anyone at all who hasn't spent many hours reading monetary history and a book like The Bitcoin Standard to lay out the reasoning first. This just isn't ever going to happen. Not at any point in the future. They have to put in the time learning before they'll value it enough to keep it. So just focus on education; they'll do this on their own if properly educated.

Rice-Fragrant

You’re correct, technically the fiat currency is backed by IOUs, which has a NEGATIVE VALUE if it pays back at a rate less than real inflation/debasement…. So you are correct, USDs are “backed” by DEBT/CREDIT that has a value of BELOW ZERO if the debt can’t be payed with at least break even rates.

insanescv

k. repeat with me. electronic STORE of VALUE. that is what btc is. n00bs always tryna make things their not.

cannedshrimp

Right, but it’s fundamentally not that power hungry PER VALUE (which again is what matters) compared to other industries. Furthermore, being power hungry is only a problem in a scenario where the energy is dirty and or has other demands. Fortunately the data show that the miners are preferentially moving away from these types of energy for one very obvious reason: cost. The ONLY potential concern I have is miners trying to use stranded hydrocarbon energy, but the massive social backlash against that has been a strong driving factor to keep that at bay. There is an abundance of relatively green wasted energy in various forms globally that could power the network many times over with low emissions and little to no added cost to other energy users.

TheDanMan007

Your conclusion is why the lot of us are as bullish as we are I suppose you think pennies aren’t scarce also? If so, at least you would be right about that If 1 Sat (0.0000001 BTC) was worth 1 penny ($0.01), 1 Bitcoin would be worth $1,000,000. THAT’S A HUGE VALUE INCREASE OVER TODAY’S $34,000/BTC 1 million dollars per Bitcoin, when the smallest divisible fraction of Bitcoin is worth one penny At $1M/BTC, Bitcoin would have a market cap of $21T… HUGE, right? No, not really. $21T is a drop in the bucket compared against ALL asset global classes [Global household wealth is estimated at $418T](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/distribution-of-global-wealth-chart/) US debt is $33T **alone**. $33T multiplied by 100 pennies ($1.00) is, in scientific terms, a fuckton of pennies 33 quadrillion pennies, just to account for the current US **debt** That alone is a larger number of **units** than Bitcoin alone is capable of accounting for (21 quadrillion). Just the **US debt alone**, not counting [the total estimated global value of USD at 45.5T (45.5 quadrillion pennies)](https://www.sifma.org/resources/research/research-quarterly-equities/) Yes, Bitcoin is scarce and anyone who can’t see that after this breakdown is a fucking clown Hope that helps with your perspective 👌🤟

CointestMod

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is a Cosmos con-argument written by gnarley_quinn. > > THE ANTI-SHILL FOR COSMOS: > INFLATION - Much too high. Staking rewards do not offset the supply increase. > There is a significant discrepancy between the inflation calculated by Messari and CoinMarketCap versus the stated inflation from the various Cosmos ecosystem scanners. > Whether it is because of some hidden lock mechanic for some tokens, and since these values are suppose to represent the circulating supply, it is not a good look for investors to have to justify why the stated inflation does not match the calculated one. > The staking rewards are averaged at 21.57% which is below the calculated inflation value, but above the stated inflation value. The staking rewards claimed on the COSMOS website also state the average APY is less than ten percent, which is significantly lower than the stated inflation. > There is a different incentive to holding which is airdrops. Depending on snapshots, you could get lucky with an airdrop that goes ballistic. > > > SOURCE INFLATION SUPPLY TODAY SUPPLY LAST YEAR > Messari 26.60 % 286,370,297 226,186,564 > Coinmarketcap 26.66 % 286,370,297 226,127,431 > Mintscan 13.82 % 313,077,417 Not provided > Atomscan 13.82 % Not provided Not provided > Cosmoscan 13.81 % 319,984,721.29 Not provided > UTILITY - Limited use. There is no reason to hold the token other than speculation > There is actually very little utility for the ATOM token. By staking ATOM, you are able to vote in Cosmos Hub governance decisions, but that is about it. There doesn't seem to be much reason to actually hold it other than it might go up or down and thus you could sell it. For context, other projects require their token to be used for fees or NFT sales. According to cryptofees, the COSMOS chain doesn't seem to actually make any money, the projects built on it do - which still doesn't seem to give a reason to hold ATOM. > DAILY ACTIVITY - It is a mystery! > Try as I might, I could not find statistics anywhere about how many addresses are actually being used on the COSMOS chain. To me, this is a massive red flag. I can find transactions on several sites quite easily, but not being able to find statistics showing me the total number of wallets created, and what percentage of them are currently being used seems impossible. This is a massive issue in terms of transparency on the chain. > Transactions > For what its worth, the average transactions seems fairly consistent, but until I can see the number of wallets that are active, I have no way of knowing if any of these are real users, bots, or just staking rewards. > MARKETCAP DOMINANCE - Falling all year > Obviously the entire crypto asset class is down this year, but if you compare like for like, you can still get a sense of whether the token is holding up well or not. > The marketcap dominance for COSMOS is roughly half of what it was at the beginning of the year. Reaching a top of around 0.6 % of the Crypto market in February, it now sits at 0.3 %. All altcoins will lose dominance in a bear market, but you would want the crypto to hold its own in the class as much as possible. Dropping 50% is not a good thing. > The dominance picked up prior to the announcement of 2.0, but has since fallen away again. > Marketcap dominance > TOTAL VALUE LOCKED - Where is it? > This value helps understand how many people are staking COSMOS and in a sense how commited investors are to the project. Yet once again this is a figure that is difficult to ascertain. > According to DefiLlama, there is no reported TVL directly for the ATOM token. Once again, they list all the projects built on top of the blockchain. The bonded tokens provided on mintscan also seem to correlate to this value. The highest individual TVL seems to CRONOS or KAVA, but I personally dont believe the locked tokens on an individual project on a blockchain should count towards the TVL on another chain. This is not necessarily a bad thing about the TVL for the ecosystem, but it begs the question again, what is the point of holding the ATOM token? > DECENTRALISATION - Some validators have too much control of the network > There are currently \~175 validators which is gives a Nakamoto Co-efficient of just 7. This is roughly the same level of decentralisation as Binance and is a terrible score. COSMOS really needs to increase the numbers of validators quickly because the distribution of tokens across the staking validators is a significant risk. > Nakamoto Coefficient > BIGGEST COMPETITION - Polkadot still higher in most cases > All cryptos are essentially in some sort of competition with each other. Due to the rationale, goals and purpose the blockchain, the biggest competitor to COSMOS is likely POLKADOT. > Again, the crypto asset class is down, by comparing marketcap dominance, Polkadot is still more than double the marketcap of COSMOS. > While Polkadot actually has about half the number of validators as COSMOS, the staking mechanism results in a much better Nakamoto-Coefficient of 85. This means Polkadot is 12 times more decentralised than Cosmos. > \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* > CONCLUSION: > Holding the ATOM token is pretty much only for speculation - you may get some free stuff or see the price rise. > TLDR: Just read the bold headlines ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find submissions for other topics.

CointestMod

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is a Cosmos con-argument written by gnarley_quinn. > > THE ANTI-SHILL FOR COSMOS: > INFLATION - Much too high. Staking rewards do not offset the supply increase. > There is a significant discrepancy between the inflation calculated by Messari and CoinMarketCap versus the stated inflation from the various Cosmos ecosystem scanners. > Whether it is because of some hidden lock mechanic for some tokens, and since these values are suppose to represent the circulating supply, it is not a good look for investors to have to justify why the stated inflation does not match the calculated one. > The staking rewards are averaged at 21.57% which is below the calculated inflation value, but above the stated inflation value. The staking rewards claimed on the COSMOS website also state the average APY is less than ten percent, which is significantly lower than the stated inflation. > There is a different incentive to holding which is airdrops. Depending on snapshots, you could get lucky with an airdrop that goes ballistic. > > > SOURCE INFLATION SUPPLY TODAY SUPPLY LAST YEAR > Messari 26.60 % 286,370,297 226,186,564 > Coinmarketcap 26.66 % 286,370,297 226,127,431 > Mintscan 13.82 % 313,077,417 Not provided > Atomscan 13.82 % Not provided Not provided > Cosmoscan 13.81 % 319,984,721.29 Not provided > UTILITY - Limited use. There is no reason to hold the token other than speculation > There is actually very little utility for the ATOM token. By staking ATOM, you are able to vote in Cosmos Hub governance decisions, but that is about it. There doesn't seem to be much reason to actually hold it other than it might go up or down and thus you could sell it. For context, other projects require their token to be used for fees or NFT sales. According to cryptofees, the COSMOS chain doesn't seem to actually make any money, the projects built on it do - which still doesn't seem to give a reason to hold ATOM. > DAILY ACTIVITY - It is a mystery! > Try as I might, I could not find statistics anywhere about how many addresses are actually being used on the COSMOS chain. To me, this is a massive red flag. I can find transactions on several sites quite easily, but not being able to find statistics showing me the total number of wallets created, and what percentage of them are currently being used seems impossible. This is a massive issue in terms of transparency on the chain. > Transactions > For what its worth, the average transactions seems fairly consistent, but until I can see the number of wallets that are active, I have no way of knowing if any of these are real users, bots, or just staking rewards. > MARKETCAP DOMINANCE - Falling all year > Obviously the entire crypto asset class is down this year, but if you compare like for like, you can still get a sense of whether the token is holding up well or not. > The marketcap dominance for COSMOS is roughly half of what it was at the beginning of the year. Reaching a top of around 0.6 % of the Crypto market in February, it now sits at 0.3 %. All altcoins will lose dominance in a bear market, but you would want the crypto to hold its own in the class as much as possible. Dropping 50% is not a good thing. > The dominance picked up prior to the announcement of 2.0, but has since fallen away again. > Marketcap dominance > TOTAL VALUE LOCKED - Where is it? > This value helps understand how many people are staking COSMOS and in a sense how commited investors are to the project. Yet once again this is a figure that is difficult to ascertain. > According to DefiLlama, there is no reported TVL directly for the ATOM token. Once again, they list all the projects built on top of the blockchain. The bonded tokens provided on mintscan also seem to correlate to this value. The highest individual TVL seems to CRONOS or KAVA, but I personally dont believe the locked tokens on an individual project on a blockchain should count towards the TVL on another chain. This is not necessarily a bad thing about the TVL for the ecosystem, but it begs the question again, what is the point of holding the ATOM token? > DECENTRALISATION - Some validators have too much control of the network > There are currently \~175 validators which is gives a Nakamoto Co-efficient of just 7. This is roughly the same level of decentralisation as Binance and is a terrible score. COSMOS really needs to increase the numbers of validators quickly because the distribution of tokens across the staking validators is a significant risk. > Nakamoto Coefficient > BIGGEST COMPETITION - Polkadot still higher in most cases > All cryptos are essentially in some sort of competition with each other. Due to the rationale, goals and purpose the blockchain, the biggest competitor to COSMOS is likely POLKADOT. > Again, the crypto asset class is down, by comparing marketcap dominance, Polkadot is still more than double the marketcap of COSMOS. > While Polkadot actually has about half the number of validators as COSMOS, the staking mechanism results in a much better Nakamoto-Coefficient of 85. This means Polkadot is 12 times more decentralised than Cosmos. > \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* > CONCLUSION: > Holding the ATOM token is pretty much only for speculation - you may get some free stuff or see the price rise. > TLDR: Just read the bold headlines ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find submissions for other topics.

maynardstaint

Completely incorrect. Btc is a speculative asset. It has lost 90% of its value multiple times. THATS NOT A STORE OF VALUE. That is a wildly volatile speculative asset.

CointestMod

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is a Cosmos con-argument written by gnarley_quinn. > > THE ANTI-SHILL FOR COSMOS: > INFLATION - Much too high. Staking rewards do not offset the supply increase. > There is a significant discrepancy between the inflation calculated by Messari and CoinMarketCap versus the stated inflation from the various Cosmos ecosystem scanners. > Whether it is because of some hidden lock mechanic for some tokens, and since these values are suppose to represent the circulating supply, it is not a good look for investors to have to justify why the stated inflation does not match the calculated one. > The staking rewards are averaged at 21.57% which is below the calculated inflation value, but above the stated inflation value. The staking rewards claimed on the COSMOS website also state the average APY is less than ten percent, which is significantly lower than the stated inflation. > There is a different incentive to holding which is airdrops. Depending on snapshots, you could get lucky with an airdrop that goes ballistic. > > > SOURCE INFLATION SUPPLY TODAY SUPPLY LAST YEAR > Messari 26.60 % 286,370,297 226,186,564 > Coinmarketcap 26.66 % 286,370,297 226,127,431 > Mintscan 13.82 % 313,077,417 Not provided > Atomscan 13.82 % Not provided Not provided > Cosmoscan 13.81 % 319,984,721.29 Not provided > UTILITY - Limited use. There is no reason to hold the token other than speculation > There is actually very little utility for the ATOM token. By staking ATOM, you are able to vote in Cosmos Hub governance decisions, but that is about it. There doesn't seem to be much reason to actually hold it other than it might go up or down and thus you could sell it. For context, other projects require their token to be used for fees or NFT sales. According to cryptofees, the COSMOS chain doesn't seem to actually make any money, the projects built on it do - which still doesn't seem to give a reason to hold ATOM. > DAILY ACTIVITY - It is a mystery! > Try as I might, I could not find statistics anywhere about how many addresses are actually being used on the COSMOS chain. To me, this is a massive red flag. I can find transactions on several sites quite easily, but not being able to find statistics showing me the total number of wallets created, and what percentage of them are currently being used seems impossible. This is a massive issue in terms of transparency on the chain. > Transactions > For what its worth, the average transactions seems fairly consistent, but until I can see the number of wallets that are active, I have no way of knowing if any of these are real users, bots, or just staking rewards. > MARKETCAP DOMINANCE - Falling all year > Obviously the entire crypto asset class is down this year, but if you compare like for like, you can still get a sense of whether the token is holding up well or not. > The marketcap dominance for COSMOS is roughly half of what it was at the beginning of the year. Reaching a top of around 0.6 % of the Crypto market in February, it now sits at 0.3 %. All altcoins will lose dominance in a bear market, but you would want the crypto to hold its own in the class as much as possible. Dropping 50% is not a good thing. > The dominance picked up prior to the announcement of 2.0, but has since fallen away again. > Marketcap dominance > TOTAL VALUE LOCKED - Where is it? > This value helps understand how many people are staking COSMOS and in a sense how commited investors are to the project. Yet once again this is a figure that is difficult to ascertain. > According to DefiLlama, there is no reported TVL directly for the ATOM token. Once again, they list all the projects built on top of the blockchain. The bonded tokens provided on mintscan also seem to correlate to this value. The highest individual TVL seems to CRONOS or KAVA, but I personally dont believe the locked tokens on an individual project on a blockchain should count towards the TVL on another chain. This is not necessarily a bad thing about the TVL for the ecosystem, but it begs the question again, what is the point of holding the ATOM token? > DECENTRALISATION - Some validators have too much control of the network > There are currently \~175 validators which is gives a Nakamoto Co-efficient of just 7. This is roughly the same level of decentralisation as Binance and is a terrible score. COSMOS really needs to increase the numbers of validators quickly because the distribution of tokens across the staking validators is a significant risk. > Nakamoto Coefficient > BIGGEST COMPETITION - Polkadot still higher in most cases > All cryptos are essentially in some sort of competition with each other. Due to the rationale, goals and purpose the blockchain, the biggest competitor to COSMOS is likely POLKADOT. > Again, the crypto asset class is down, by comparing marketcap dominance, Polkadot is still more than double the marketcap of COSMOS. > While Polkadot actually has about half the number of validators as COSMOS, the staking mechanism results in a much better Nakamoto-Coefficient of 85. This means Polkadot is 12 times more decentralised than Cosmos. > \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* > CONCLUSION: > Holding the ATOM token is pretty much only for speculation - you may get some free stuff or see the price rise. > TLDR: Just read the bold headlines ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find submissions for other topics.

CointestMod

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is a Cosmos con-argument written by gnarley_quinn. > > THE ANTI-SHILL FOR COSMOS: > INFLATION - Much too high. Staking rewards do not offset the supply increase. > There is a significant discrepancy between the inflation calculated by Messari and CoinMarketCap versus the stated inflation from the various Cosmos ecosystem scanners. > Whether it is because of some hidden lock mechanic for some tokens, and since these values are suppose to represent the circulating supply, it is not a good look for investors to have to justify why the stated inflation does not match the calculated one. > The staking rewards are averaged at 21.57% which is below the calculated inflation value, but above the stated inflation value. The staking rewards claimed on the COSMOS website also state the average APY is less than ten percent, which is significantly lower than the stated inflation. > There is a different incentive to holding which is airdrops. Depending on snapshots, you could get lucky with an airdrop that goes ballistic. > > > SOURCE INFLATION SUPPLY TODAY SUPPLY LAST YEAR > Messari 26.60 % 286,370,297 226,186,564 > Coinmarketcap 26.66 % 286,370,297 226,127,431 > Mintscan 13.82 % 313,077,417 Not provided > Atomscan 13.82 % Not provided Not provided > Cosmoscan 13.81 % 319,984,721.29 Not provided > UTILITY - Limited use. There is no reason to hold the token other than speculation > There is actually very little utility for the ATOM token. By staking ATOM, you are able to vote in Cosmos Hub governance decisions, but that is about it. There doesn't seem to be much reason to actually hold it other than it might go up or down and thus you could sell it. For context, other projects require their token to be used for fees or NFT sales. According to cryptofees, the COSMOS chain doesn't seem to actually make any money, the projects built on it do - which still doesn't seem to give a reason to hold ATOM. > DAILY ACTIVITY - It is a mystery! > Try as I might, I could not find statistics anywhere about how many addresses are actually being used on the COSMOS chain. To me, this is a massive red flag. I can find transactions on several sites quite easily, but not being able to find statistics showing me the total number of wallets created, and what percentage of them are currently being used seems impossible. This is a massive issue in terms of transparency on the chain. > Transactions > For what its worth, the average transactions seems fairly consistent, but until I can see the number of wallets that are active, I have no way of knowing if any of these are real users, bots, or just staking rewards. > MARKETCAP DOMINANCE - Falling all year > Obviously the entire crypto asset class is down this year, but if you compare like for like, you can still get a sense of whether the token is holding up well or not. > The marketcap dominance for COSMOS is roughly half of what it was at the beginning of the year. Reaching a top of around 0.6 % of the Crypto market in February, it now sits at 0.3 %. All altcoins will lose dominance in a bear market, but you would want the crypto to hold its own in the class as much as possible. Dropping 50% is not a good thing. > The dominance picked up prior to the announcement of 2.0, but has since fallen away again. > Marketcap dominance > TOTAL VALUE LOCKED - Where is it? > This value helps understand how many people are staking COSMOS and in a sense how commited investors are to the project. Yet once again this is a figure that is difficult to ascertain. > According to DefiLlama, there is no reported TVL directly for the ATOM token. Once again, they list all the projects built on top of the blockchain. The bonded tokens provided on mintscan also seem to correlate to this value. The highest individual TVL seems to CRONOS or KAVA, but I personally dont believe the locked tokens on an individual project on a blockchain should count towards the TVL on another chain. This is not necessarily a bad thing about the TVL for the ecosystem, but it begs the question again, what is the point of holding the ATOM token? > DECENTRALISATION - Some validators have too much control of the network > There are currently \~175 validators which is gives a Nakamoto Co-efficient of just 7. This is roughly the same level of decentralisation as Binance and is a terrible score. COSMOS really needs to increase the numbers of validators quickly because the distribution of tokens across the staking validators is a significant risk. > Nakamoto Coefficient > BIGGEST COMPETITION - Polkadot still higher in most cases > All cryptos are essentially in some sort of competition with each other. Due to the rationale, goals and purpose the blockchain, the biggest competitor to COSMOS is likely POLKADOT. > Again, the crypto asset class is down, by comparing marketcap dominance, Polkadot is still more than double the marketcap of COSMOS. > While Polkadot actually has about half the number of validators as COSMOS, the staking mechanism results in a much better Nakamoto-Coefficient of 85. This means Polkadot is 12 times more decentralised than Cosmos. > \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* > CONCLUSION: > Holding the ATOM token is pretty much only for speculation - you may get some free stuff or see the price rise. > TLDR: Just read the bold headlines ***** Would you like to learn more? Check out the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find submissions for other topics.

Dazzling_Marzipan474

Read The Bitcoin Standard. People try to overcomplicate things. It's just MONEY that is decentralized and a STORE OF VALUE. As opposed to fiat CURRENCY which DEPRECIATES and is greatly manipulated with hidden taxes called inflation.

ReplacementPasta

>EXAMPLES Stocks Stocks is a great example, stocks on it’s own is rather useless, if the company does nothing, gives no dividends, and doesn’t grow. You’re at the mercy of if more people bought after you did, there’s no utility or use case. BUT if you receive dividends, you get value. Same with NFTs. There is the fact that when you buy a stock, you own a part of that company. The company propably owns something of value like factory or realestate. But yeah., when the debt of the company exceeds the net worth of the company, then the stock is essentially worthless in the "now" moment, at that point you are buying into the future operations of that bussiness. If it doesnt go anywhere, the stock is essentially worthless. ​ >2. Houses Houses is a great example, owning a house in a random remote island in Africa is useless to you, but if there’s development around it like cafes and supermarkets you gain value. The more development around your asset, the more it grows in value. But there’s no value, all you have are 4 walls and a roof. Yeah, houses are a non productive asset. But it fulfills a basic human need of shelter. There is always some inherit value to shelter, and the land has resources that are worth something. You shouldnt buy a house in hopes of it growing in value by itself. ​ >THATS VALUE, and as the Nft devs make the collection into a company, the more the company grows the better the NFT performs. I think people miss understand NFTs as a useless image, but it’s more then that. With NFT, you arent buying anything inherently valuable. Most NFTs dont even come with the rights to the picture. A company can create value for an NFT, like for example by making an NFT concert ticket, then there is inherit value to the NFT.

sandpaperboxingmatch

>It’s not based upon or tied to anything of value. > >... > >Plaintiff and the class have lost approximately $86 billion So it is Elon's fault that someone invested in something they believe to have nothing of value? This contradiction itself should persuade the judge to dismiss this case. Usually, those harmed LOSE because they were promised something of VALUE. This guy just seems salty he made a bad investment because Elon likes the coin. This is such a waste of time.

Independent-Space-23

well thought out response, but didnt quite understand what I am saying: value is subjective, but only to an extent. every human understands scarcity, and thus scarce things are (potentially) valuable. **scarcity is the number one factor, if we had to pick one alone, that determines objective value**. though, for example, there are few of my boogers, but do they really have value? hence **not even scarcity alone can determine objective value: context becomes key to whether scarcity does give value to the thing in question** Let's apply this to bitcoin. If you understand that Bitcoin ensures monetary scarcity, and that the world needs sound money, the objective value Bitcoin has to you goes through the roof (as objective as we special snowflake unique humans can view) Price is a simple way of expressing this objective value, because everybody else around you is also using it as a measure. But, it is PRICETHE VALUE OF THE THING ITSELF the problem with all current economic ways of thinking, is that they do not truly try grasp the concept of value, thus they mistake things that are worthless, such as currency, as the whole point of their economic existence. "investing in bitcoin \[to make fiat\] I am not investing in fiat, you chodes, I am opting out. back to the point you made, value does not come from productivity, you are actually making the argument for communism ironically, because they believe labor (which is another way of saying productivity) is the way value is determined the problem is labor/productivity is actually subjective: I may have no need for your labor at all in one context, and it be essential in another. an objective measure of value cannot be The benefit for society is bitcoin itself: a stable way of storing value: our current unstable way of storing value is a huge problem that drives environmental damage, all the way to trap music and consumer culture Fix the money, fix the world.

Remyleboo99

This seems like big news - tweeted by Walter Bloomberg: “MICROSTRATEGY, CRYPTO COMPANIES WIN FAIR VALUE ACCOUNTING” This means that when BTC goes up they can write that into their books and show it off in their earnings report. Previously they would only write the price they bought at and if there were “losses” (even if they didn’t sell). Now they can say that they have “gained” (again even if they didn’t sell). The rule from before sounded strange but I guess it’s balanced up now!

ChuckDeBongo

Couple of things: 1. Will people please stop saying “Black Swan event”? People used to say this because Black Swans they were extremely rare. Until they “found” Australia and it turned out it was a common animal over there. 2. I love this subreddit! It’s predicted 29 of the last 2 recessions. 3. There will be a mini-panic. Governments won’t do anything if it is short term, but will pump the system with money if it gets out of control (a la 2008/2009). They KNOW these economies need to undergo recessions in order to purge the system of malinvestments, but it cannot do it if the purge is too big. Hence, why it’s a slow moving train crash. The ONLY thing which is guaranteed is inflation will rise. Slowly or quickly. But it will go up. Mainstream currencies are guaranteed to lose value. I repeat. MAINSTREAM CURRENCIES ARE GUARANTEED TO LOSE VALUE. Hence, why I am investing in stocks, crypto, precious metal, etc. ANYTHING but holding cash (unless it is in a high interest account, and even then it’s a limited amount.). This isn’t financial advice, this is just what I am doing. You do you. But I’m (literally) cashing out. Peace out.

benditbackwards

Never! We are in a transitory phase of Bitcoin, where miners have to pay for their power in the local currency, as the demand and adoption increases, especially as the supply keeps shrinking ( due to halving and boating accidents ;) ) The VALUE of Bitcoin will increase, to the point where the people supplying the power, will demand to be paid in Bitcoin! At that point, no one will care about the price of Bitcoin in the local currency, because it will BE the local currency. Also and this is the game theory of Bitcoin, the difficulty adjustment dynamically adjusts based on the available hashing power, the inefficient miners will start to shut down due to competition from more efficient miners. There is always a struggle between the miners and the difficulty adjustment, rest assured, there will always be miners chasing the profit of the fees and reward as we move into the bright Bitcoin future!

Fear_Blind83

Found the Binance BNB SAFU wallet 👀 1,364,102.149150831147718361 BNB VALUE: $295,664,560.17 https://bscscan.com/address/0x4B16c5dE96EB2117bBE5fd171E4d203624B014aa