VTI

maaaaaxx7

Wow. Thanks for this example. I had to write it on a napkin to truly understand it and figure out what you mean. In the first example, I see the -4k not as a loss. If I held onto VTI, I would lose that anyway. Just not realized loss. For the second example, the -4k loss on the short put is an eye opener for me. Thanks for the breakdown. In regards to selling OTM calls, I don’t want to cap my gains since I’m going to hold on to some sort of broad market index anyway. Just trying to make some extra cash. By selling puts, I won’t cap any gains and the market tends to move upward long term anyway.

PapaCharlie9

VOO, VTI and all the Vanguard funds have **the worst options liquidity** you can find on the market. Holy shit, the bid/ask spread on the ATM puts and calls is so wide, you could sail an oil tanker through them. There are entire chains with 0 volume at the end of the day. So that's the biggest downside. Option trading is terrible on both VOO and VTI.

91havinfun

>Are there any down sides to this idea? >What can go wrong? *selling naked puts* Lmao thats rich. Also, isn't VOO significantly higher than VTI? How would selling VTI cover a VOO put assignment, unless you're selling puts 50% OTM, in which case I dint think they would ever fill. Even if they did, that's a major "picking up pennies in front of a steamroller" situation.

wild_b_cat

Nothing in that report actually does a proper backtest. It points out that if you own dividend stocks you should reinvest the dividends for the highest long-term growth, but that's a given. [Here's a simple backtest of Vanguard's whole-market index vs. its High Dividend Yield fund since inception in 2006.](https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/backtest-portfolio?s=y&timePeriod=4&startYear=1985&firstMonth=1&endYear=2023&lastMonth=12&calendarAligned=true&includeYTD=false&initialAmount=10000&annualOperation=0&annualAdjustment=0&inflationAdjusted=true&annualPercentage=0.0&frequency=4&rebalanceType=1&absoluteDeviation=5.0&relativeDeviation=25.0&leverageType=0&leverageRatio=0.0&debtAmount=0&debtInterest=0.0&maintenanceMargin=25.0&leveragedBenchmark=false&reinvestDividends=true&showYield=false&showFactors=false&factorModel=3&portfolioNames=false&portfolioName1=Portfolio+1&portfolioName2=Portfolio+2&portfolioName3=Portfolio+3&symbol1=VTI&allocation1_1=100&symbol2=VYM&allocation2_2=100) Now, that's just one limited datapoint, of course. Some people point to dividend funds with recent good performance (SCHD is the flavor of the day for them), and some studies have found that dividends have long periods of beating the rest of the market. But it's not accepted as a universal truth by any means.

blastoititis

VTI. Lost a very huge contract with Ant investments and robos, job market losses on firings, etc

Acceptable_Stay_3395

Why dont you just sell covered calls on VTI?

TheoHornsby

For ease of explanation, assume that VOO is $400 and VTI is $200 and they correlate perfectly. You own 200 VTI @ $200 ($40k). Also, ignore some minor math discrepancies below (assignment price). You sell one $360 VOO put. Both drop 10%. VOO is $360 and VTI is $180. OK, slightly below $360 and you get assigned and you have to buy 100 shares of VOO at $360. Sell 200 shares of VTI at $180 and that $360 covers the VOO purchase. So far, so good - well, at least in regard to the put. But you've lost $4k on VTI. Suppose both are near the strike and there's an additional 10% gap down (based on the original not current prices). VOO is now $320 and VTI is $160. 200 shares of VTI is worth $320 ($32k) but you have to buy VOO at $360. You've lost $8k on VTI and $40 ($4k) on the short put, ignoring the premium received. IOW, both are losing below the strike price. It's highly improbable that they drop 10% on a gap but at least you should understand the potential risk. And obviously, if they were dropping in a normal fashion, if not BTC, you'd roll the short put down and out to lower the assignment price. And if you're willing to take on such risk, consider the possibility of selling OTM calls on VTI to bring in more premium.

AP9384629344432

The actual ratio is a bit of guesswork. Factor tilting requires deviating from market cap weights. Personally, of my index funds (ignoring all my sector ETFs and individual stocks), I aim for 40/25/20/15 in VTI/VXUS/AVUV/AVDV. Adding a 5-10% stake in SCV isn't going to meaningfully change my portfolio returns, so I go big by making sure they are a large enough proportion of my portfolio. And I give roughly equal weight to AVUV/AVDV with a slight bias to AVUV.

blastoititis

VTI

maaaaaxx7

But if I would have just kept VTI, I would still be down 10%? Does that sound right? This way I’ll still some premium selling puts.

blastoititis

**Vanguard's Cost-Efficient ETF For Mega-Cap Blue-Chip Exposure** VTI IS IN TROUBLE.

chawklitdsco

I’ve seen people post this strategy a few times here and my feedback is always the same. It’s not a risk free way to tax loss harvest. If you sell 5% otm but the market is down 10% at expiry you are having to sell VTI down 10 to buy voo which would only be down 5 and incurring a 5% loss all else being equal.

maaaaaxx7

Can you explain more about the opportunity cost? These are not CSP. If the market goes up my VTI would also go up. I’m just trying to collect extra premium selling puts. But if the puts gets executed, I’ll just sell my VTI to cover it.

maaaaaxx7

Can you elaborate on the gap below the strike price? I’m thinking if VOO gap down then VTI should do something similar. Wouldn’t it be just selling one to buy the other. Almost like a wash.

catswhomeow77

$40k portfolio (Self managed. Novice investor, buy and hold long term) VTI ~52% O ~16% VNQ ~12% AAPL ~10% The above tickers are the core of the portfolio. The thought was to focus on VTI and dividend growth to supplement a 401k income in the future. Account set to DRIP so all dividend payments are paid as shares. These positions I’m not so sure about. So I only have starter positions SBR ~1% VYM ~1% VZ ~1%

OG-Pine

What’s the advantage of doing this over just selling outs in VTI, since that’s your current stock anyway?

bigmuffinluv

Oh? I use Charles Schwab as my brokerage account. I'd be thrilled if I could buy fractional shares of VTI/VXUS. I've been doing whole shares this entire time.

flobbley

I don't think you've done enough self education to be investing in the stock market the way you intend to. There's a world of difference between evaluating a company, it's cash flows, it's moat, it's place in the macroeconomic environment, it's cash on hand it's debt, and comparing that to the current stock price to determine if you think it's undervalued, and "put a $1000 in because it might become $1,000,000 one day". Keep educating yourself, surprisingly Martin Shrekli (yes that Martin Shrekli) has a great series about how to go about valuing companies on YouTube https://youtu.be/VI_riscmviI Until you've got better legs under you, stick with total market index funds or ETFs like VTI

EtherLust

Selling puts while holding a similar stock can be a viable strategy, but it's important to consider the risks and downsides before implementing it. Firstly, VTI and VOO are not exactly the same stock. While they both track the US stock market, VTI tracks the CRSP US Total Market Index, which includes small-cap and mid-cap stocks, while VOO tracks the S&P 500, which includes only large-cap stocks. Therefore, there may be some differences in performance and volatility between the two ETFs. Secondly, selling puts can expose you to significant downside risk. If the stock market experiences a significant decline and VOO falls below the strike price of your put options, you may be assigned the stock and forced to sell your VTI shares to buy VOO at a potentially unfavorable price. This could result in a loss if VTI has appreciated since you bought it. Additionally, it's important to consider the opportunity cost of selling puts. By tying up capital in selling options, you may miss out on potential gains if the stock market continues to rise.

TheoHornsby

It's not a bad idea but I see several issues. If the IRS deems the two to be 'substantially identical' then selling VTI at a loss and buying VOO would be considered a wash sale. In that event, the loss would be deferred until you sold the VOO shares and stayed out for 30 days. Since VTI is approximately half the price of VOO, you should only sell 1 VOO put for every 200 shares of VTI that you own. If the market tanked and VOO gapped below the strike price before you could sell your VTI shares, you'd be losing on both positions. IOW, assuming true parity, below the strike price of the VOO put, you'd be losing on both positions.

indigon1

RSP is equal weighted, may be better than VTI

R_Slow_Travel

Real question - How will this strategy fare LT against someone who stayed invested and auto-reinvested all divi’s into VOO or VTI the entire time with at least a 5 year horizon looking forward and has been doing so for at least the past 5 years? TYIA

AP9384629344432

As I say in the last few paragraphs of the big post, and the last paragraph here, I do not like fully passive index funds. For the literature, see AQR's paper "Size Matters, If You Control Your Junk." The empirical data on small cap's risk premium shows a statistically insignificant impact, that is, until you filter for value and profitability. The small cap growth universe is described as a 'black hole' of returns. I will only invest in something using a methodology like Avantis or Dimensional Fund Advisors, even though the expense ratio is higher (I already hold VTI/VXUS anyway). If I'm going to tilt this sector, I want quality.

BJaysRock

90% VTI

One_Put_3230

VTI

Dennyj1992

Index funds. VT or VTI and VXUS is all you need.

shortyafter

Btw /u/AP9384629344432, what are your ETFs of choice for small cap value? I think you have mentioned before you have both US and international? I have a small allocation to VTI then a whole bunch of dividend stocks. I was recently thinking about going back into VTI just to counter-balance that but you actually made a really good point about the weighting of that index. Maybe small-cap value would be a better idea. Also, what exactly was the thesis for this? I know you've written something before. Anyway not being lazy just be curious to hear what you have to say and you got me thinking tonight.

Viking999

I bought some VTI at 191 or so the other day. I'll buy some more at lower price points. There is no need to chase rallies. I actually hope VTI dips to 180 again. Buy low, we just usually aren't there.

AP9384629344432

Yeah this is part of the reason I haven't been buying VTI (and don't hold SPY). I dislike how top heavy it is. I don't want to have 13% of my portfolio in some of the two biggest companies on Earth. $5B market cap companies have a lot more runway than $2T ones that are massively exposed to regulatory or geopolitical risk. Instead, I take heavy tilts to small cap value ETFs. What I like about them is that no company is very top-heavy (top 10 holdings only make up some 8% of the fund, and there are 700 in total). You might like some of the top holdings of AVUV (BTU and AMR both have around half a percent of weight each).

apooroldinvestor

Markets go up and down and always will. Nobody can predict ANYTHING with certainty! Just dca into mostly VTI and maybe 20% your own picks and get on with life. Nothing matters in the end anyways.

PhiloPhrog

The best international etf which includes the US is VT, Vanguard Total World index, which is a 56% US 44% international mix. Rather than mixing VOO or VTI with another international fund, VT does it for you. Just remember though that people have been saying that the US was going to slow down for decades now. I was listening to a clip of investors in the late 90s saying that international was the way to go and the US is burnt out, yet the US has still outperformed for the past 25 years since then.

Princeps94

Closed my spy put at 3:59 for a nice 60% gain, gonna buy some more VTI tomorrow.

junkaccount1999

Would/do you buy single stocks in your IRA or only ETFs? Tech stocks like TSLA, MSFT, AAPL, AMD, NVDA etc a good/bad idea for a smaller % of portfolio? Main holding is VTI and SCHD

JavaScriptGirl27

Don’t touch individual stocks and just invest in VOO or VTI. Options are hard because it’s difficult to time the market. Options buyers are net losers while options sellers are net winners. If you try to dabble in options again - just wheel it out with SPY.

Alec_NonServiam

You could always sweep everything into a vanguard total market index for a month or two - VTSAX or VTI. Then switch to VOO when the wash sale window is up. VTI tracks pretty close to VOO but is not considered "substantially identical" since it is total market rather than S&P.

CONHEO13

VTI ,VT that's it

drkgla

Nonsense. We need more “Should I buy VTI/VOO” and “Which FAANG is best”. You will genuinely find better discussions on the gambling sub.

FldLima

30 yo. 90% VTI 2% SOFI 2% Palantir 2% NU 2% Ast space mobile

okie9999

Yep- I’m a weird one who owns both VTI and VOO haha.

InvestingNerd2020

The easiest with good diversity is a Total USA index mutual fund for IRAs. 2nd best is a S&P 500 index mutual fund in a 401k plan. 401k plans usually don't offer a Total USA fund. Example IRAs: Schwab SWTSX Fidelity FZROX or FSKAX Vanguard VTSAX ETrade SWTSX or VTSAX If the broker doesn't offer Index mutual funds for an IRA, below are the ETF equivalent for a Total USA fund: VTI (most popular) SCHB ITOT

silenceisbetter1

Rate my portfolio - 27 years old, confirmed idiot SPY: 33% VTI: 15% VXUS: 9% Target date fund: 4% Individual stock: 22.3% - Crm - 2% - APPL - 2% - UNH - 2% - MFST - 1% - AMZN - 1% - BRK.b - 1% - Abbv - 1% T-Bills: 16.7% - 4 month @ 4.8% - 6 month @ 5%

apooroldinvestor

Does it matter? My accounts up a lot this year. Your portfolio will go up and down the next 20 years, but if you hold QQQ VTI it'll be much higher in 20 years. If not then stocks will be your least worry.

Hifi-Cat

57, as above. STOP. There is NO quick in the market PERIOD. Put what's left into a all US fund like VTI, delete your trading app and focus on other things.. do NOTHING but put money in VTI going forward. If you can't do this...get an advisor.

InvisibleEar

In my opinion it makes more sense to use VTI/FZROX as an index you plug away at and don't think about for 20 years, but I'm not an expert either.

silenceisbetter1

Rate my portfolio - 27 years old, confirmed idiot SPY: 78.9k -> 33% VTI: 35.9k -> 15% VXUS: 21.8k -> 9% Target date fund: 9.6k -> 4% Individual stock: 52k -> 22.3% (- Crm - 6k -> 2% - APPL - 5.4K -> 2% - UNH - 4.8k -> 2% - MFST - 4.4K -> 1% - AMZN - 4.2k -> 1% - BRK.b - 4.2k -> 1% - Abbv - 4.2k -> 1%) T-Bills: 40k -> 16.7%

JimFromTexas77

Yep - First $20k to 401k, then next $6.5k to your IRA, and the rest to VTI and chill have 6 months emergency juss chillin in a HYSA @ 4% You'll have almost half a million after 10 years. Just this one simple trick...

JimFromTexas77

Just VTI and Chill set it and forget it or let it chill in a HYSA or 3 month bills overtrade and you lose

shortyafter

Sounds good to me man. You've got your style, it's obviously well-informed, you stick to it. Maybe you and I just both get rocked to "VTI and chill" people, or maybe not. Either way we're sure to have some fun along the way.

AP9384629344432

I'm actually not a Boglehead and Ben Felix definitely would not approve of my portfolio, which has 30% individual stocks. 20% is small cap value tilts, 30-40% VTI/VXUS. My model is more: start with base global index fund (Felix), tilt SCV (Fama/French/AQR/Avantis/Dimensional/Felix), commodity tilt (oil/gas/copper/met/thermal coal/fertilizer), then a handful of sector bets + individual gambles.

AP9384629344432

Do you include your emergency fund? I'm like 2% cash not including it, and 8% cash including emergency fund. I'm a lump sum investor, I just modify what I invest in depending on what's on a relative deal. For example, I basically stopped investing in VTI/VXUS the last few months and recently invested in small cap value ETFs and commodities mostly. Around last summer time I invested heavily in VTI/VXUS which paid off (especially ex-US stocks). If we get a major dip soon, I'll switch back to prioritizing the broad index funds.

sn_uv_tv_f

VTI is US, VT is whole world

Pancakesex

difference between VT and VTI? VTI has been my go to. am I missing something? Thanks in advance

dansdansy

Not a bad idea to move individual wins into a diversified etf like VTI. Though you'd want to account for taxes. You have a solid long term cost basis though (and I like the company) so maybe just let it run and diversify with any new buys.

rica217

I am only here to call myself a complete dumbass for following this clown into EATO. I had no idea what level of ... um... well... cognitive function I was dealing with. I am silly, and I belong in VTI and SCHD.

NewPalladio

All fair points. I was not an OG on robinhood but I did have one of those system issues, it was one of those record upside days, some people couldn't get out or buy into positions, true. I'm aware of the advantage of a mutual fund like VTSAX, you can later convert into VTI at no fee or tax implications if you wish to do so. Don't have mutual funds on Robinhood currently. I need to research more on their PFOF again, I don't find it much of an issue with ETF's currently.

1hotjava

Alternatives should only be a tiny portion of your portfolio. The majority (90%+)should be “total stock market index” like VTI / VTSAX

WoodnPhoto

Diversification is a great idea, but something like VTI would be a better choice than speculative and illiquid 'assets.'

apooroldinvestor

I don't invest in Financials. But you're diversified so good. To me small cap, mid cap is a waste of time. I'd just do some QQQ and maybe VTI. I like a little in semis and I have 10% in asml lrcx and nvda combined

apooroldinvestor

You're best to just dca into an etf like VOO and maybe QQQ then. Also big named like msft aapl asml lrcx and unh are very safe long term stocks but you should keep each position lower than maybe 4% or so in your portfolio and you should by shares very slowly with the hope that you can average down in your positions. The easiest way though, and especially for long term investing is to just buy VOO or VTI every week. You can buy dollar amounts at placed like Fidelity, so if you can only afford $50 a week you can buy $50 of VOO every week. But if you're young try and do at very least $100 a week. But if $50 or less is all you can invest its.better than nothing. Everyone has to invest! Better off doing it from a 401k at work though for the match.

Beerhavior

The traditional advice is to be something like 80% US stocks and 20% international, until you are getting within 10 or 20 years until retirement, then to reduce the stocks and start addiing bonds. Assuming you are relatively young, a complete no brainer hassle free allocation would be 80% VTI (US Stocks Market) and 20% VXUS (International).

hardcore_softie

You could just invest in index funds that track broad markets. You won't get eye popping returns instantly, but you'll always tie the market while doing zero dd ever. Look at VOO, VTI, and QQQ for starters. You're not going to find a good analyst or publication to feed you winners. That doesn't exist.

Barbi33

Get a financial advisor if that’s your cup of tea (it’s not necessary, especially with $300k). If you are happy with the area you live in and have your job and everything cooking, buying a house, or put a massive portion of it toward a mortgage of a higher valued home are both good ideas. Don’t listen to people talking about interest rates or similar topics as reasons to not do so: you can never time this shit, it’s a fact. You can always refinance. I did just that on my home. Originally had a 4.5% and refinanced to a 2.2 in 2020. If you want to get even more savvy about it, you could use a chunk of it as a down payment toward a house you want to buy, and invest the rest in a total market index fund such as VOO or VTI and start off your retirement journey ahead of the vast majority of people. Right now, you should immediately put it in a SPAXX or HYSA and earn 4-6% interest on it until you decide what you want to do. Seriously, before you decide anything get that money in a interest gaining scenario. Feel free to reach out with any questions and good luck with your leg up :).

The_BitCon

Your best bet currently is to hold cash and wait for the dust of the current economic drama to clear. Watch for the market to crash and burn within this year and then start to slowly buy up the best companies that will be around long after the SHTF, AAPL, AMZN, MSFT, COSTCO. then start adding global market ETF's and funds, SCHD, VTI, JEPI, JEPQ, DIVO. you are young, a great opportunity is coming your way if you can just be patient and wait a few more months, dont blow your whole wad at once, DCA into whatever you get in. ​ most will not agree w/ me on this one, but you should probably go buy physical gold/silver, not more than 10% of your current savings, hold those coins till you are 60

BetweenCoffeeNSleep

Added some VTI to the brokerage account. Decided against rolling down my April 21, $75 strike SCHD covered calls. I’m not bullish or bearish near term. I’m not looking at picked stocks right now (my only picked stock is PLTR at $7.56/share as part of a buy-write with August 18, $8 strike covered calls). I’m just adding VTI in my brokerage account and writing monthly, low delta (.2-ish) CCs on SCHD in my Roth IRA. I have SSO (2x daily S&P 500 ETF) positions in my accounts, which I’m letting sit. I’ll lump in more in January again if the market doesn’t recover by then. Those positions are -12.5% since going long January 2022.

NW_Runner

VTI has a bad option chain. SPY has the best equity option chain. Futures allow for more leverage. Index options may have better tax treatment. Neither index options nor futures create wash sales so that's nice too.

Cruian

Their holdings are already covered by VTI/VOO. Why hold extra?

magicscientist24

I think exchanging VOO for VTI might be your best option to reach deeper into different sectors without having to maintain 11 different allocations.

Graysteve

If your goal is to be conservative, you wouldn't want to overweight anything beyond their Market cap weight, and would stick with VT or some combo of VTI and VXUS. Dividend investing isn't conservative, it's overweighting historically profitable companies because you are after a certain outcome that traditionally has not outperformed the market overall.

Cruian

>Drop meaning sell it all? Depending on taxes. >Can’t just convert it to VTI since that is an ETF? No, the tax free conversion would be to VOO, but that wouldn't do anything to fix your overlap issue. >So get rid of the VGSLX as well? Unless you want to tilt extra towards REITs. >What is ex-US? "Excluding US" also known as international.

plowt-kirn

> Overwhelming majority will recommend SCHD be paired with VOO. Overwhelming majority of who? This is /r/investing, not /r/dividends. No, I don’t think there is any kind of majority - and certainly not an overwhelming majority - recommending that fund combination. I prefer total market funds. Either VT or a combination of VTI + VXUS.

seairelle

Okay thanks. Drop meaning sell it all? (30k ish in VFIAX) Can’t just convert it to VTI since that is an ETF? So get rid of the VGSLX as well? What is ex-US?

seairelle

Okay thanks. Drop meaning sell it all? (30k ish in VFIAX) Can’t just convert it to VTI since that is an ETF? So get rid of the VGSLX as well? What is ex-US?

seairelle

Okay thanks. Drop meaning sell it all? (30k ish in VFIAX) Can’t just convert it to VTI since that is an ETF? So get rid of the VGSLX as well? What is ex-US?

Cruian

>Do I have too much overlap? Yes. >Brokerage Account -VFIAX -VTI Roughly 80% of the weight of VTI is the entirety of VFIAX. I'd drop VFIAX if the tax consequences are little to none. >Roth IRA -VGSLX -VTSAX VGSLX is basically fully included within VTSAX. Your IRA + taxable mean you are extremely underweight on ex-US.

LanceX2

You want both. Im 37 yrs old. 35% SCHD and 22% All tech etf and 25% VTI. SCHD is large value and it does grow well and pays 3% dividend. It counterbalances VOO or Heavy Tech. When one does well the other doesnt do as well. Over time SCHD and VOO perform similarly

Cruian

>Could I just buy VTI, then? Total market index. Seems like the same idea, but simplified (same idea as VOO + something) Yes, exactly.

prestigious-yam99

Got it. Thanks. Could I just buy VTI, then? Total market index. Seems like the same idea, but simplified (same idea as VOO + something)

InvestingNerd2020

If you don't care for retirement investing (IRAs), then open a regular taxable brokerage account. Invest the money in a Total USA ETF or a diverse dividend growth ETF for 5+ years. Some ETF examples: VTI, SCHB, DGRO, or VIG. FYI...investing is a long-term process. Minimum 5 years. Trading is short-term with high risk of losing money, and low potential to gain money. 43% increase has a better possibility in 5 years than a short-term gamble.

Flakmaster92

VTI+BND+VXUS Or, if you don’t want to manually adjust the percentages over time, Vanguard has a set of “LifeStrategy” mutual funds where you just decide what percent of stock vs bonds you want (20% increments) and they handle the internationalization and rebalancing for you.

Lost-Aardvark-7182

I got it thank you so much. Are you a U.K. investor? Any tips on the equivalents of VTI/SCHD/QQQ/JEPI?

UnderstandingFalse43

What about just making it simple. VTI VXUS BND ?

Ok_Account4793

why don't you just buy the SPY or VTI ETF? you are long term bullish - but in the meantime no one knows how and when this conundrum will play out...

oszillodrom

Truly set and forget: VT and BND. (Or VTI + VXUS + BND, which is functionality the same.)

aznkor

Why VOO, IVOV, and VIOV instead of just VTI?

TheSneedles

There was a huge arb on VTI. TDA let’s you trade that stock 24/5 so you coulda shorted for free money. It’s gone someone snatched it

TheSneedles

Oh well if you have access to GOTC markets through Refinitiv Eikon or Bloomberg, you can short 2 shares of VTI about 0.75% under implied NAV:) I’m guessing Robinhood though

Seref15

I wish my 401k provider let me choose VTI/VXUS. I have no total-market funds available, I have to construct my own weighted portfolio out of small/mid/large/int/emrg funds.

1hotjava

$45k into VTI