CC

Icy_Giraffe_21

Can I have your CC # for the weekend ? I promise you'll make money

metalzip

> they knowingly sold you a faulty lock that could easily be picked. btw, is that proven? since when NVK/CC known it's buggy

lexicon_riot

yes it was? CC wallets were drained

b1mm3rl1f3

It's the next CC... really wouldn't recommend it. It might take days, weeks or even years.. but something will eventually happen with bitkey. Just a hunch.

FitCompetition1804

While that whole ordeal was extremely unfortunate, it was also easily avoidable with best practices. That’s the problem, people just trusted and didn’t verify. Even those that trusted CC’s RNG to generate their seed phrase but used a proper passphrase were unaffected. Those that generated their own entropy were not affected. Those that used multisig, multi vendor were not affected. I get it, the vast majority of people aren’t going to do these things. Too complicated to comprehend for most and for those that do understand, too lazy to implement layered security measures. If you educate yourself enough, there’s nobody stopping you from having your own enterprise level amount of security and redundancy for an asset that you actually control If the shit ever hits the fan. Self custody isn’t for everybody, and we need simplicity for general population adoption. But the whole point is they give up a lot of Bitcoin’s inherent benefits by turning over that custody to somebody else.

JumpProfessional3372

Whats your new wallet? Did you go with RNG in CC and/or the new wallet?

Bred_Slippy

Think it's great how they stepped up following the CC debacle. Kudos. 

Oakenkai

As long as you rolled dice and especially if you also added a complex passphrase, there is really no reason to move and probably more risk with moving than staying. The only downside is CC likely will go out of business and therefore firmware upgrades will stop, but this is a longterm concern that can easily be remedied via transfer to new wallet when the time comes. If you don't have a passphrase, you can keep the same device, same backups/seedplates etc, and just add a passphrase wallet on top of your existing seed phrase wallet for that extra security, and the move the coins to the new wallet. This wouldn't cost anything and would add that extra bit of security in case there is ever a chance the dice-rolled seed phrase is compromised (like if the device dice roll function didn't work as designed).

TheMoonMoth

Hot Take: I'm still sticking with my Cold Card set up. Yea CC fucked up big time - I'm never going to be giving them more money. However, I also don't want to give someone else money either. My CC set up was expensive to begin with (seedplate, redundancy device, offline power) - and I was lucky enough to have pushed my understanding of self-custody to the point where I rolled my own entropy with dice. With this secure set up, I don't see any reason to move my utxo's to another wallet - even a free one. That move has network costs that I think even are too expensive for what I would be trying to get. Be honest, moving to another wallet carries as much risk as staying on CC (providing the generation had manual entropy). I even think it's safer for people to use now since the community has turned a painfully critical eye on the device. I think of this man often: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/joXRbY2Q1Jw

Reasonable_Band1536

I just buy daily using the Gemini CC, but have now become interested in finding out about whales vs retail. Do I need a chart or could I find articles on this? Not trying to complicate things, just interested.

IpuMan

Bru! I don't know about you doing DCA since the ATH but I'm doing it since 17k, using Fold CC to all my expenses and getting sats back it's pretty solid!

NoobPwnr

Thanks for sharing. Yeah the CC stuff shook me, too. I've been an Electrum user for years. I've had a Trezor sitting in my drawer I've been meaning to get to. And at this point I'm feeling the same sentiment as you and likely going to just go full exchange. Family-planning, 401k-combining, benefactor-signing. With funds hidden in an offline wallet that no one knows how to access - hardly even me lol.

Full-Atmosphere-4818

Well this is a "Duh!" given it already did this with CC. But AI cannot "hack" into a proper seed phrase. At this point notihng can. But what he probably means is it can exploit code errors and other such things. Yeah, we know this. Also, we have no clue who this guy is and if he really has any expertise at all.

Laukess

I've bought a few HW from different vendors after the exploit, and they honestly all seem inferior to the CC. Really sad. Would be interesting if the company died, and their IP was open sourced, so the community could build something from the ashes. I don't follow the SeedSigner people, but would be interesting if a group of people like them would make new firmware for the old devices. Not really sure if this is feasible. Would probably be easier to just vet the code instead of rebuilding it from the ground up, but I'm not sure it could be done in a way where people would be comfortable using it. Maybe we just let it burn, and hope a group of cypher punks builds a new wallet in the spirit of the ColdCard. Maybe some of the big manufactures realizes that some people want a more hard core HW wallet, and they build something for those people. Let me dream. It is weird having a device available that is superior to every other device, but not being able to buy it, because you can't trust them anymore.

nerull13

Je viens d'apprendre le hack de CC. J'allume ma coldcard modèle Q. J'ai toujours mes bitcoin... Je crois que la passphrase m'a sauvé. J'ai tout déplacé sur ma TREZOR 3. Cette chance...

Full-Atmosphere-4818

I think you misunderstand..... how do we know more code on other devices does not have some fault like CC did, but novel? We just assume... Oh we dealt with this issue so we are all free and clear. I don't think it is that easy.

Aazimoxx

Yes but this is with the benefit of hindsight, with the knowledge that those transactions are all part of a larger heist. There are already almost 100,000 BTC transactions every day between 0.01-1 BTC, and the initial wave was about 500 transactions to a single address. If instead that initial wave had been 500 transactions to 500 other addresses, it wouldn't have been a blip on the radar. Even if someone was specifically analysing for movement from dormant addresses, well that may cut that down to say 100-200 of those CC addresses (depending on parameters), but then still hardly enough to grab attention unless someone was very specifically looking for this exact thing. Most such 'dormant watch' efforts would be concentrated on an order of magnitude larger than what was dealt with here - watching wallets of 50-100 BTC+, and dormant for 10yr+. There also isn't any rush if you *don't* consolidate, since no-one's writing a news article and posting on Reddit about a few people randomly reporting that their coldcard is empty. In isolation, people screw up all the time and get ripped off by people close to them, or munge a passphrase, or commit a major opsec mistake somewhere between 'today' and 'many years ago' which ends up with them getting drained, or.. simply lie about losing the funds, for tax/scam/divorce/attention/whatever purposes. It's literally not becoming widespread news at all without that consolidation, until likely many months later.

RetiredAvocado

Bitcoin and computers don't understand any seed words as words. Words stand in for numbers, and make the numbers easier to record. Take 12 four-digit numbers from 0001 to 2048 in exact order. Does it seem harder to guess the same number now? 0047 2004 1156 1956 1011 0068 2031 0050 1911 1324 1309 1968 Bitcoin network does not know anything about any words. It uses addresses, keys, and signatures. A key for an address is a large number. Guessing the number will let me spend from the address for that key. Don't need any words at all. CC created keys in a small range due to a bug. The small range of keys was scanned over time, keys collected, and emptied in 3-6 waves. The latter waves may be due to white hats.

LazyTech8315

Thank you. I'll have to watch the videos and forgive the CC reference. 🤣 The towers are a good idea.

Laukess

I actually think you're 100% right on the conviction being the variable that determine allocation. I don't think your description of conviction is correct though. None of the factors you describe change my conviction. Conviction to me is about knowledge. If you understand why you own bitcoin, and you know it's value proposition, price wont affect your conviction. I don't think the CC exploit should shake your conviction, as we've always known that custody carries risk, but it's still a far more reasonable argument as a factor that lowered your conviction than price. I also don't think reading news should have an effect. As you learn, you should know why all the FUD is basically baseless. News about adoption should also not affect your conviction. Yes, it might have a negative or positive effect on price, but again, price is not conviction. Anyway, I think 1%-5% allocation is reasonable for someone who's not into bitcoin, but want a bit of exposure in case it takes off. I think you can find some analysis on this if your interested. Your portfolio will be better off in most cases i think. If your well off, and don't want the risk, 20% sounds reasonable. Even if you lose it all, it won't be catastrophic, and if your well off, it's probably more important to secure your wealth compared to maximizing gains. For young people with a lot of time ahead of them, and high conviction, I think going 100% is sound. It's a bit extreme, but it might be the only way out for a lot of people. As time passes and the volatility lowers, this becomes a worse argument, and at some point having a 50% allocation might be the best choice. A disclaimer, I think bitcoin is still in a position that it can absolutely rip. Like $500k-$1m in 2029. Like some LLM math said that if we saw the same market cap gain in bitcoin as we've just seen with gold, bitcoin would basically be above $1m. Bitcoin is a lot lower market cap, so I think we could easily induce way more FOMO because the percentage price gain would be way higher and we've already had a history of insane runs. Obviously a lot of people think the fun times are over, because they look at the past 5 years. If you're in this camp, 100% allocation is probably not the way to go. I'm very happy that I went 100% when I found bitcoin, even though I had no money. Way better off today than if I would have gone 50% bitcoin.

Full-Atmosphere-4818

It's funny to see people claim it's impossible to break but then when you point out the CC incident they blame something else. It does not matter if it is like picking out a grain of sand if something ELSE is wrong that makes that analogy useless. These wallets are complex systems made by humans and technology is growing fast. Bad actors find yet another flaw and then that flaw is fixed and then it finds another. This does not even count the fact thar quantum will be able to break all passwords in one second someday no matter how many seeds are used. Can't wait til we wake up to that one day. The older I get the more I understand Lao Tsu's statement in the Tao... "Amass a wealth of riches and nothing on Earth can protect it."

logavulin16

Yes but all have consistently bled to BTC. I too have always liked LTC. It’s the kind of coin you send cash to your friend to pay for a pizza delivery. That being said, the market has essentially proven that this is not a particularly useful technology to do so. There are other ways to send $20 to a friend, or pay for a tank of gas that are more familiar and convenient, and there is little to no improvement on this with LTC or other CC. BTC however offers sovereignty and store of value with the greatest security the world has to offer. It is the #1 most secure asset in the world. My point being, early hypotheses about technology are often wrong. The technology is invented, then the use cases are discovered along the way.

Ok-Sympathy9768

Yup, me too,started buying GBTC in my tax advantaged account long before the ETFs. Tax free growth made a big difference; along with not having to worry about self custody. The puritan NYKNYC group may never accept this. The CC shit show just reinforced my belief in ETFs

Hefty_Difficulty_259

\-125k from a home equity loan and 90k in CC debt. Had a chance to cash out with half a mil back in March 2024 but thought it was the start of alt season. Doubled my income to keep up with payments on the interest. Patiently waiting for the next bull run. 😥 could chapter 7 but then might have to sell the crypto.

Teqtoke

Yeah fuck CC

DeepNRadish

yeah but i am scared to enter it in CC. I don't trust CC firmware. So i want to know is there any possibility that my seed or pass can get leaked just by entering in CC and checking xpub. I am not going to do any transaction on CC, its not Anti-Klepto. nonce attack possible.

Porcellanidae

Enter the passphrase in the Jade, than import the xpub from Jade into a software wallet of choice. Check if it has the same txid's as your CC one. Than you can be sure that there were no typos. 

Laukess

>The attack began at 01:31 UTC on July 30. Within exactly 41 minutes, 1,196 high-value addresses were systematically drained of 1,082 BTC. What is this based on? Why could they not have started the attack 5 years ago? >According to preliminary exchange IP data and community tracking, the victim pool is heavily concentrated: Some talk about the bitcoin community in Asia being more likely to roll their own seed. This group would probably also be more likely to buy the CC. I don't think an odd distribution on it's own tells the whole story. I lot of factors went into who got exploited and how much they lost. Regions don't hold the same amount of bitcoin, and some regions might feel the need to protect their bitcoin better at lower purchasing power. Maybe some regions are more likely to use multi-sig because of the geographical location. Maybe you're more likely to live far away from your parents in NA, but less so in EU. >**3. Incomplete and "Surgical" Wallet Draining** I think this points to the opposite. The attacker got lucky finding the bug and did a piss poor job at executing it. If they were more skilled, they could do what you imply, but target multi-sig. They didn't. >**4. The Contact Paradox** Them having a list of emails does not imply that they have all user data saved. They could have chosen to not send emails out about the exploit and still have saved the user data. Would probably be the better move if they saved the user data, and didn't want the heat.

Skinny_Human

That’s not really the same thing. The CC (fuck you CC!) problem reduced security to around 72 bits because of a flaw. A genuinely random 90 bit passphrase would require hundreds of trillions of trillions of guesses on average. At a billion guesses per second, that would take around 20 billion years. More entropy is always better, but 90 bits of real randomness is still extremely secure.

fllthdcrb

The passphrase has a very different role. Put aside the fact the user is usually allowed to create it freely, while the seed phrase is normally generated by the wallet. The seed phrase is restricted to words from a fairly small list, words which have been chosen to have certain properties to make them easy for humans to handle and limit errors.\* A passphrase can be essentially any string (UTF-8, NFKD, according to the spec, although it's of course wise to limit what you use for the sake of wallets where it might not be possible to enter many things). Yes, you can make the passphrase a set of words, but the seed phrase is already supposed to be doing that. The passphrase is meant as an extra parameter to allow having multiple wallets under a single seed phrase, and/or as an extra defense. Plus, with the current design, I think people would be less likely to do it correctly when having to do it themselves. (In the CC case, that has/would have saved people, but it's not something that they should be required to do, especially unknowingly.) As for the amount of entropy, I think that a seed phrase should at least match the security level of Bitcoin private keys. The latter are 256 bits in size, but due to the way ECDSA works, the effective security is actually about 128 bits. So, I would want at least that many bits to start with, i.e. 12 words. I'm not entirely sure if that makes sense, but that's my opinion. \* Properties include: For the English wordlist, the first four letters (including the lack of a fourth letter in some cases) are unique for each word, facilitating quicker and less error-prone entry. Also, having a power-of-two number of words allows them to be cleanly mapped to binary numbers. A BIP 39 phrase also incorporates a checksum, so a wallet can catch errors in entry, after reversing the mapping process. (Unfortunately, the number of checksum bits is *w*/3, where *w* is the number of words—12, 15, 18, 21, or 24. So a 12-word phrase has just a 4-bit checksum, making an incorrect entry with valid words validate 1 in 16 times.)

fllthdcrb

> have no idea what a ColdCard is lol A hardware wallet that, until recently, was highly regarded for its secure design. Unfortunately, it turns out the company's firmware development was sloppy, and some of their products for a few *years* have contained code meant only for testing, which used a software PRNG instead of the RNG inside one of the secure elements (a chip) that was supposed to be used, limiting the entropy available for generating seed phrases to a catastrophic extent, allowing someone to sweep many CCs where such phrases were used instead of imported phrases and without passphrases, simply by generating all of the possible seed phrases. None of which is a flaw in Bitcoin itself. At worst, it's a thing that can happen in this space if all parties aren't careful enough. That is an inherent risk, to be sure, but I'm guessing part of why the incident didn't affect Bitcoin's price in any perceptible way is that it was limited to products from one small company, and didn't even affect all customers. I mean, just the fact there are people like you who *still* haven't heard of CC shows it's not that important in the big scheme.

leopard-monch

Typical of NVK. We all know that there are lots of super esoteric, highly sophisticated attacks against computer systems. The idea that a threat-actor who can employ these mechanisms wouldn't also be able to get to your ColdCard seed, assuming it's even necessary to physically getting to it and not simply calculating them all because they lack entropy, is laughable. Yes, some NSA spook can extract parts of my memory by injecting malware on my system and having a single pixel blink some data for a hidden camera to pick the signal up or whatever. Guess what, if they can do that, they also can simply look at my ColdCard uber-hacker metal seed backup plate. Much easier. Nothing new here. I guess people were impressed by this seemingly highly technical gobbledegook. Somehow, most OG's wouldn't touch hardware wallets at all. I wonder how many people lost funds by simply installing Linux on an old laptop, putting Electrum on it and never connecting it to any network ever again, while simply having the seed on a piece of paper with their birth certificate or something (see videos below). My guess is a lot fewer than were affected by the CC entropy bug or various wrench attacks due to personal information leaks from hardware wallet sales. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9K3CozQpzM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9K3CozQpzM) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK4JmfMCDBg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK4JmfMCDBg) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBVyFRb6ZZc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBVyFRb6ZZc)

Skinny_Human

Dude I am still on the fence about this, you’re not wrong at all. The whole point of moving away from CC is reducing trust in someone else’s entropy generation, so replacing one hardware RNG with another does leave the same class of risk. Dice remove that dependency entirely. The tradeoff is that now I’m the potential failure point, and I am prone to fuck ups because I am human!!

Laukess

I haven't looked into their setup. I think it's supposed to be more like a single sig with better recovery paths, and less like a traditional 2-of-3 multi-sig. Based on what you've written, it sounds like the hardware key is generated by you, so unless there's an exploit, they don't know what it is (the exploit would be in the same vain as the CC exploit. You generate a seed that's deterministic). Maybe they could exfiltrate the phone key, as it's on a phone where you also have access to your personal clout account, which is what is needed to unencrypt it. They are in control of the app, and can push new code to it. The server key seems dangerous because they hold it, but again, unless they can gain access to the offline hardware key, or the key generation can be exploited, they can't decrypt it. One of the design decisions I don't like is the fact that you are likely to have the hardware device and your phone at the same place. Your house burns down, and you've just lost access. I think it's a tradeoff they've taken because they don't want people to leave backups elsewhere, because people don't want to do that, they want an app that can handle everything for them. If you're looking for an alternative to single sig because you don't want to worry about backups, it's probably a decent product. If you're looking at a 2-of-3 setup, and want samething that's easier, I don't think this is it. Again, haven't researched the product much. Never seemed like a good alternative to my own setup. Take everything I say with more than just a grain of salt.

Skinny_Human

OP I think your post makes a good distinction between theoretical security and operational security, but I think it draws the boundary in the wrong place. A hardware wallet does not need to eliminate human error to be superior it just needs to remove important classes of failure, and keeping signing keys isolated from a general-purpose, networked operating system does exactly that. The fulfilment breach is serious, but it compromised privacy and increased social-engineering risk, not the cryptographic security of properly used wallets. Saying that, a dedicated phone is still a general purpose computer whose security ultimately depends on the OS, application sandbox, wallet implementation and the user never accidentally expanding its attack surface. The CC incident is the stronger criticism because it demonstrates something genuinely uncomfortable: “open source” describes auditability, not assurance. Reproducible builds, competent independent review, deterministic or independently verifiable entropy, mature implementations and a history of adversarial scrutiny matter far more than simply publishing source code. But there is also a false symmetry here between hardware-wallet complexity and hot-wallet simplicity because both require the user to protect the seed, recognise phishing and understand recovery, while the hardware wallet additionally gives you an isolated signing environment. Saving a hardware-wallet seed in Bitwarden doesn’t prove the hardware wallet was pointles it proves that violating the security model can nullify one of its principal benefits. So I wouldn’t tell someone with $300 that they are irresponsible for using a reputable hot wallet dude nor would I tell them to spend $250 protecting it. I’d tell them security should scale with the value at risk. For modest amounts, a reputable hot wallet with a properly protected backup can be entirely rational; as the amount becomes financially significant, the additional isolation of a well-designed hardware wallet becomes increasingly worthwhile. The relevant comparison isn’t “cold storage versus humans”; it’s which architecture leaves the fewest catastrophic failure modes after accounting for the particular human who has to operate it!!

Mulvita43

Any crypto I have invested in. Soooooo Sol, Hbar, LINK, CC…etc

Skinny_Human

The passphrase saved lots of people using CC man

carbonetc

I never had a Coldcard but I bet they repeatedly recommended a decent passphrase and now we've seen how many somewhat savvy people ($100M+ worth) ignored that advice (not to shift any of the blame away from CC's monstrous negligence). I'm not sure why regular people would take what you're lobbying for any more seriously than the ubiquitous urgings to use a passphrase. I'm all for something like that existing, but it isn't going to save regular people. Have you ever tried teaching a regular person anything? "Stop making me think" is their mantra. This is going to be part of the role of financial institutions in the 21st century. Regular people will rely on their custody services because they can't manage it and shouldn't try. Bitcoin doesn't exist to force people to self-custody, it exists to create the option of self-custody for the people who need it. As long as someone in some authoritarian nation is able to build and transmit wealth without anyone's permission, I don't care if Grandma needs a bank. There's an enormous excluded middle between it's all self-custody or it's all Bitcoin banks.

johnnyhonda

You can verify the CC firmware is generating the same words for a set of dice rolls, the algorithm is deterministic for a given input. Here is one online generator that computes the words from a given input with different configurations: https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ There are numerous examples of videos people showing you how to check the device https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVgPoQrbi7A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aToKeArNIuo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXJNLvAVar0 There are also videos of people doing this with multiple hardware wallets to ensure they are doing the math correctly.

ClottedYouth

This is FUD and speculation. I just bought a MK5 a few days ago and it has already shipped. Their online shop says the units will ship with updated firmware. I'll use dice for entropy and the CC will remain an air-gapped signing device.

OkProject2361

The more I see these types of posts I wonder how BTC grows. It either grows via the very institutions we don’t want to take over OR it stays where it is. Normies aren’t going down this path. Hell, after the CC fiasco I’m done with self custody…It feels like the bottom is in. All I have to say is I’m not missing my next chance to exit during the next bull. I’ll keep 0.21 but everything else is for sale then.

Ok_Knowledge_4977

Anyone follow this YouTuber by the name of SouthernBitcoiner? He setup CC with passphrase weak to strongest. Apparently those got swiped as well after few days. So passphrase also affected if the seed word is compromised?

ejon7

if you truly understand what happened, you wouldn’t feel that way. I rolled dice, lost no funds, and will continue to use the CC. what I won’t do is EVER trust a device with my entropy…… always create your own

liquid_at

the reason cro went up was because they offered the first crypto-CC with cashback in CRO, where holding CRO would get you significantly better conditions. After Gen1 these bonuses were reduced and by now they are basically non-existent. You can get a CC with better conditions anywhere now. People just know it was up, but not why. There is no reason for CRO to return to where it was.

Icy_Giraffe_21

Are there confirmed cases of CC with passphrase losing funds ? Pretty should all who were affected didn't have one.

Altruistic-Walrus-34

Some years ago, I had a hard time using an old PC to calculate the last word, and I drilled its hard drive afterwards. No regrets haha. That experience led me to start developing an offline BIP39 calculator. After the CC incident, I was kind of forced to come clean and make it public. [https://www.seedmate.net/seedmateblog/what-is-seedmate](https://www.seedmate.net/seedmateblog/what-is-seedmate)

Laukess

yeah, I think it was more me wanting a cheap ColdCard than it was about CoinKite making money, but it's probably smarter to just destroy the inventory even though it's kind of sad. Surely with a fuckup like that they'll have a hard time selling CC's at full price. Even using it in a multi-sig setup seems iffy at best.

Laukess

Yeah, I thought dice roll support and a way to use the device would be low hanging fruit, but as far as i know, the 2 big manufartures does not support either. Quite wild. Would imagine the dice roll feature would come to most hardware wallets in the future, after the CC exploit though. Lets see. I think you might have just sold me.

Laukess

Looking at other HW's to replace my CC's, and most of the choices are pretty sad, especially if you're looking to buy 3-5 from different manufactures. The fact that showing the 24'th words isn't standard across every device is crazy to me.

thatoldtimerevision

If they messed up the entropy rng, what else did they mess up? Do you know? Are you willing to bet your BTC on it? It's all risk, no reward. There's no reason to ever touch a CC again.

Pisces1975

Precisely why I lost confidence in cold wallet. What happen to CC can jolly well happen to ledger etc

RoyYourWorkingBoy

It's fine to buy a new CC now, they destroyed all the bad units. /s What a clown show, Coinkite can't go bankrupt soon enough for me.

OkProject2361

I was using Trezor, then moved my stack to my Fidelity crypto account after the CC fiasco. Everyone is so confident that this is a one time issue. I’m not. AI models will continue to hunt for any and all vulnerabilities and I’m willing to recognize that I’m not technical enough to keep up. I had a good 5 year run for self custody, but I just gave it up. I know, not your keys, not your cheese. Take a step back and really assess it for yourself.

Mr_Ander5on

Whether or not it was an inside job, the company exhibited gross negligence and I don’t know how anyone would buy or use a CC at this point.

Henrik-Powers

Had a friend turn me onto to CC and he had been using them exclusively since they came out. He pretty much lives off grid and I haven’t been able to reach him, don’t even know if he knows about any of this yet, definitely worried he’s lost some of his bag but I’m not 100% sure as he was paranoid and talked about dice rolls.

DarrelXero

Yes. To build a multisig that no longer uses the CC you will have to move all of the funds once the new 2 of 3 wallet is created.

PupHendo

Is the process of replacing 1 coldcard (in a 2/3 multisig setup) creating a fully new multisig address (with the CC swapped for a different wallet) and transferring the funds?

Elistheman

No trust. My CC is in the drawer collecting dust. I can’t believe this was touted as the best BTC wallet.

tenor_tymir

Shilling their own products is t necessarily deception, even if undisclosed. People were t forced to use CC or click the links. Advertising is moral free. Welcome to the internet.

Rey_Mezcalero

Wow Cold Card was the bedrock for offline storage and then this happened I know it was just one line and not all of them but goes to show how we quickly things can fall apart. While I can’t imagine a hardcore person put their crypto in CC and not paying attention to news…but imagine a horde of people still unaware and more wallets being drained and one day in the future they see everything is gone. Quantum computing is going to be devastating

Skinny_Human

You need to get back on the horse and start stacking again sir. Use dice for your seed phrase and your pass phrase. And never use a CC again.

zmooner

What made you choose CC in the first place?

CiaranCarroll

The point of dice rolls is that same input produces same output if you use a separate device (not a CC) that uses the same algorithm, e.g. Ian Coleman's site properly configured, so you can verify that your entropy is used in the seed generation in your device. You don't know what you're talking about.

CiaranCarroll

A painful lesson, I'm really sorry that voices here and elsewhere in Bitcoin were not louder about the risk of this exploit. A lot of the responsibility is on people who propagated FUD about the "risks" of dice rolls. I have to question whether that was coordinated, and why other HWWs don't support them. It should be ubiquitous given how central to Bitcoin's principles the idea of verification is. People need to start asking questions around who is behind these accounts. I remember there was more commentary on this when I bought my CC Q a few years ago, so why did it die off. Why were people caught so unawares? Maybe it was simply a preference for over-engineered solutions in technical communities, and an antipathy to the analogue solutions available to anyone.

arcrad

It wasn't. I said as much in the first sentence. Also this isn't only about the CC backdoor

Mr_Ander5on

It’s doubtful that the T&C that nobody reads will hold up for gross negligence. They also have to show that you read and understood them, that’s why you have to scroll through some, click I agree, etc. CC is set up without your name so they would have no record that you agreed to their terms.

JumpProfessional3372

Lot of the people who followed CC's paranoid guide are on the same boat, kept using coldcard as always, no need to update unless we learn that old firmwares can leak a private key or stuff like that. Obviously these issues, if hey happen, while they are critical, they are less risky than the RNG bug.

Laukess

Fair enough. After the CC exploit I've been looking at different HW's and I'm honestly quite disappointed in the Trezors. Hopefully they'll update their firmware to allow for some of these features in the future. Personally I would rather spend a little more to avoid the Coleman software, but it obviously depend on the stack you have. I would honestly feel better about just using the RNG form the device even though that's hard to recommend after the CC exploit.

nochkin

It's not how you store in case of CC, but how you generate initially.

HeroicHeron

"the input is rejected and the step repeats. The device refuses to continue rather than accept bad entropy." And what if the code that is supposed to execute this step fails to execute properly and instead let's the seed generation continue? The whole problem with the CC entropy bug was that due to faulty code, a properly coded TRNG path was never executed. On a theoretical level, if the CC had some kind of code for double-checking the entropy, a different piece of bad code could have let to that step being skipped over as well. The only way to truly and permanently eliminate the low entropy RNG attack vector is to roll your own seed and convert it manually to BIP39 words which is incredibly easy to do. The main improvement we can hope for from the hardware wallet ecosystem is more support for generating the 24th word checksum when importing a seed. Only a few devices do this currently. Even if this step is faulty or has malicious code, there is no risk to the user as the seed simply can't be initialized.

Laukess

I wonder if it could be turned into a non-profit organization, run by a different set of people. Whenever CC's were mentioned, people always complained that it was too advanced, even though all the features were hidden away. People still think that it's air gapped only. Considering that was the response, I don't have much hope that other manufactures will take this path. Maybe rolling your own entropy will become more standard. Allowing your device to show the list of valid checksums after entering the 11/23 words seems like a small ask, so I could se that becoming widely adopted. Looking at other hardware wallets after the exploit has honestly been sort of disappointing, especially because you really should have multiple different devices if you're going with multi-sig. Maybe we'll see more hardware wallets share more features. No reason why every manufacturer couldn't have a device with a camera so they could be used with SeedQR in a stateless manner. Was pleasantly surprised when I learned that was a feature of the Jade Plus.

Gangaman666

I've been around for over a decade. I've tried every hardware wallet under the sun, apart from cold card. I knew this guy was a scumbag a long time ago. And there was talk that the RNG was weak. Also the device was overcomplicated not fully open source and poorly put together. I chose keystone pro (the original) as my airgapped (daily) and trezor as my true cold. It was 2021 the revelation first came out about weak entropy. Every time I tried to warn people against cold card I was attacked by CC fanboys, which I found asinine, who the hell fan boys a hardware wallet company! They must have had one hell of a marketing team.

Abbreviations_Royal

Good analogy. Likely unpopular opinion: the hardware of CC's haven´t become useless overnight either, the reputation and trust of the code it utilization has. Im uncertain as to what level of scrutiny the verification of the latest firmware versions has gone through, but I´d imagine that after such a catastrophic event the providers and the external observers both will have way higher levels of scrutiny that arguably makes CC's safer than ever, even if that may never help change the consensus trustlevel back to previous levels.

kilingangel

Moved my shit out of CC to my old Trezor one LOL. Now I’m wondering if I even need a new device.

lookn4a304

Guess what nationality is behind CC. Every fucking time…

FehdmanKhassad

Maybe time spent in the game. Reputation. How long has ledger existed? How long has CC existed?

nitr04

Can we please agree to not only use abbreviations like "CC"? This post will not show up if you search for "Coldcard".

tribepride25

I’ve had coins in two HWW for five years. After CC, I created a Fidelity account last week. Feels so much better to have security and not have the pressure of keeping my coins safe. I love the delayed withdrawals, 2k a day, and having to get withdraw addresses approved. Really makes it impossible to get drained. I’m still trying to decide how much to move there, but I like the idea of 1/3

Icy_Giraffe_21

Is everyone hear saying they are done with CC, former users or just sharing their feelings. Seems like a lot of people never even had one and are just riding the wave without any insight or knowledge of the situation.

JumpProfessional3372

>Safer on am exchange There is nothing wrong with believing this. But for people who believe this is better to avoid self-custody at all costs, otherwise more cases like the CC will keep happening in the future.

JumpProfessional3372

I do not agree nor disagree, but I'd like to refine it more: Only a small amount of people on a hardware wallet that used bad firmware **and created the seed using the wallet RNG functionality**, were affected. And from these affected, some also had a strong passphrase and survived. Because many followed the CC paranoid guide to create the seed (bypassing the RNG and rolling dices) and were not affected.

Charming-Designer944

What threat vectors are your main concerns? Discarding CC and moving to a soft wallet is not an improvement in nearly all aspects.

RichHomieWan

Thank you. Now that I’m leaving CC I decided to pick up the Trezor 5.

Remarkable_Gap_3418

As if paying with CC and an asset you self custody is the same. Can you chargeback an asset you self custody in a decentralized wallet? Go get your wallet drained and see what options you have for remedy. What a dumb comment.

fllthdcrb

> joystick method wouldn't work because human randomness is too predictable. Well, it can maybe be made to work. You just can't use the raw values. Instead, use something about the input the user can't actually control, such as precise variations in timing.\* However, this creates a problem of verifiability, compared to inputting dice rolls. CC's processing of dice is documented, and is pretty easy to check through independent means, because you can roll the dice, write down the values, and use those values both with the CC and whatever else. But you couldn't do that with this other method. \* Of course, this is assuming the observed timing is reliable. I always found the responsiveness of the CC's keypad pretty bad, often having to re-press a key because it doesn't register the first time. Given this, I don't have much faith in the firmware being able to time input precisely enough.

MinimalistMindset35

I don’t have an aversion to that- I already have that set up but don’t CC wallets were drained even with a passphrase.

MinimalistMindset35

The line keeps moving and that’s frustrating. In 2021 I was told that if you create a passphrase no one could hack it, now I’m being told your passphrase needs to be 20 characters with random unique words upper and lowercase characters etc. I have a single sig with a passphrase but it’s hard to trust the randomness of hw now when CC went 5 years with that attack vector. I’ve been on the fence about moving my funds to a new wallet with an even stronger passphrase bc messaging is changing so much right now who knows what will be the best practice in a few weeks

damchi

>CC single sig with passphrase was also hacked. CC single sigs with **a bad** passphrase got hacked. Look up how to create a good (high-entropy) passphrase and use that. >Twitter is saying you now need multi vendor multi sig Screw Twitter "experts" and "influencers" even more. Most of the ones saying you ABSOLULETY NEED a multi-sig setup now are the ones who couldn't stop signing praises to Coldcard before. A multi-sig (especially an X of Y setup) is mainly useful in cases of joint administration of the bitcoin (where multiple ppl have to sign) and where immediate access is of essence and hardware failures need to be mitigated. For us normies, a single-sig + GOOD passphrase is the way to go.

MinimalistMindset35

If you’re gonna be dismissive why even comment? CC single sig with passphrase was also hacked. That’s part of why I said I’m rethinking self custody. Twitter is saying you now need multi vendor multi sig and that’s not a feasible option for me. I’m not overreacting-my entire net worth is in Bitcoin so I’m reacting appropriately.

MinimalistMindset35

I’m gonna need you to use words precisely or don’t comment. I never said self custody is dead I said the CC exploit has made ME reevaluate self custody. Your comment implies I made a broad statement when I made a more nuanced statement about my own setup. Words have meanings, use words correctly.

Large_Still_1224

Thanks for the feedback. Yah I honestly forget how I created the seed until after I migrated. Totally had just “set it and forget it”. I guess I still am slightly insecure about how I did the dice rolls. I’m assuming I did the 100 rolls since I had a 24 word seed, but can’t be 100% sure. I also can’t find the original vids or website I learned it from, which is what’s prompting me to redo this and start fresh. Plus I’m worried if there’s any other risks I don’t know about with the CC hardware.

EyesFor1

Don't rush. With 100 dice rolls you are perfectly safe. This comes down to choice. You are choosing to migrate not because you have to but because you want to. Take your time, there are loads of accounts of people loosing there funds whilst rushing away from CC when they didn't even need too.

azauca

I used CC for several years, after this, I’ll never trust them again.  My Q is now in the trash.  

GoldmezAddams

As I understand it, there are signing attacks that can occur from malice or incompetence, particularly if it is generating predictable nonces. I want more dust to settle before I even consider using my CC to sign again, and even then, the trust is so completely gone I may not even do that.

fllthdcrb

TBF, even Coinkite was always (AFAIK) promoting dice rolls as an option. (I believe it was something that was talked about even before CC was a thing.) I take it people are saying CC users would have been fine if they'd used that option, and they most likely aren't wrong. But that doesn't change the fact the company shipped a product with a flaw that should never have made it out the door. From their perspective, dice rolls should have been just a way to please people who wouldn't trust the entropy source, not secretly the only way to be secure. That said, this incident does show that a certain amount of paranoia is justified from users' perspective. And let's be real: rolling dice is a pretty solid source of entropy. It's tedious, but you can't really go wrong. But... it's also tedious, so only paranoid people want to do that. > Funny thing is that a well regulated exchange might actually get slack if they lose the funds but people are just coping with the cold card incident. Not really a fair comparison. If an exchange loses money, there are ways their customers might recover it, like insurance and courts. They have a clear fiduciary duty, so there's a good chance of winning a suit if they were negligent, fraudulent, etc., even though the courts are way too expensive if there isn't at least a small fortune at stake. With self-custody, you're a lot more on your own. Maybe Coinkite can be sued, but it's less certain the money can be recovered, especially if they don't have much to be able to pay a judgment. In any case, anyone doing self-custody should be prepared for the risks associated with it; that has never changed.

McBurger

This is when DCA takes the most discipline lmao. Classic CC wants to wait until the fomo starts to rally and buy high instead

Sitonyourhandsnclap

True and as others have said it doesn't rule out the chance of still coming up with any possible seed. Whereas the PRNG of CC device was actually limiting what could be generated so making things very easy for hackers 

Skinny_Human

Trusting the device to make your seed is the same as CC

JumpProfessional3372

But do we have more people actively auditing Trezor code than we have in Coldcard? If not, that wouldn't add much value. Because that's the difference between "source available" (CC) and "open source" (Trezor).

JEI2E

Another exchange shill, yawn. Meanwhile, everyone who used a passphrase, kept their coins. Yes, even the ones with impacted CC devices. "Not your keys, not your coins" still holds true. The chance of a hardware company messing up, is infinitely smaller than yet another exchange going bankrupt.