IP

Fission-235

I would love to see them do this! That would create some very interesting investment opportunities! Everything but China would be a winner from an investment standpoint. And then they would be less likely to steal our IP in the future 👍. Well, as long as we go about managing our overseas manufacturing partnerships very differently.

valderium

IMO Architecture encompass the entire stack: infra, llms, enterprise. It's going to require a reorganization of companies across all domains to validate it. I think execs (Dimon and the folks he talks to) thought they were getting AGI and the goal of hyperscalers was to get to AGI (META really wants it). I think Karp is also sharing that LLMs are priced like AGI but it's not. Worse, you're also losing IP. I think labor wage gains do compress as human capital (ugh, hate that term) is required, but the gains just aren't there. I think better architecture/paradigm to get to AGI is needed and hyperscalers aren't required to get there today. I think the c-suite was thinking AGI happens with massive scale and if it doesn't, then LLMs are good enough. Except they are crazy expensive. So shareholders are going to be left with public utility-like components of a business that was a cash cow with crazy margins before

DrElkSnout

what in the fuck happened with International Paper (IP)? What the fuck?

vasja_peredul

# 1. The Misunderstanding of Object-Oriented Programming (OOP) * **A Naming Regret:** Kay notes that he coined the term "Object-Oriented," but clarifies he did not have languages like C++ or Java in mind. He believes the term was a mistake and that it should have been called "Process-Oriented" or "Message-Oriented." * **Focus on the "In-Between":** The industry became obsessed with the internal structure of objects (the nouns and verbs). Kay argues the focus should be on the *messages* passed between them (the spaces in-between). * **Objects as Virtual Servers:** An object shouldn't just be a data structure; it should act as a "universal simulator" or a completely encapsulated computer. Every object should ideally have something akin to its own IP address or URL. # 2. Biology as the Ultimate Metaphor for Scaling * **Scaling a Doghouse vs. Growing a System:** Kay uses the analogy that you cannot simply scale up a doghouse to build a cathedral—the engineering principles break down. Similarly, traditional software construction methods do not scale well. * **The Cellular Model:** He points to molecular biology, noting that a biological system (like a baby growing from 50 cell divisions) scales by a factor of trillions. Cells work together by communicating through membranes that keep the interior separate, never directly sharing their DNA. * **Growing, Not Constructing:** He argues that we must transition from *constructing* software (like building a Boeing 747, which cannot grow) to *growing* it (like a living organism that doesn't need to be taken offline for maintenance). # 3. The ARPANET/Internet Success Story * **A System That Never Stops:** Kay highlights ARPANET (the precursor to the Internet) as the model for future software. It expanded by eight orders of magnitude, replaced every single physical atom and line of original code, and never once had to be taken offline. * **Applying the Macro to the Micro:** He stresses that the architectural metaphor of the Internet is exactly how we need to approach what we currently consider "smaller" programming tasks. Treating programs as "small" is precisely why modern software becomes so bloated and unmanageable. # 4. Critiques of Modern Tech (HTML and Browsers) * **The "Dark Ages" of Data Abstraction:** Kay heavily criticizes the path the internet took with HTML. He views the idea that a "browser" must natively understand rigid file formats as a massive step backward—calling it "one of the worst ideas since MS-DOS." * **Dynamic Negotiation:** Instead of rigid standards and browser wars, Kay envisions a system where objects over a network can dynamically *discover* and *negotiate* what each other can do by prodding and poking one another, rather than relying on brittle interop layers like CORBA. # 5. Meta-Systems and the Evolution of Ideas * **The Importance of Reflection:** He praises LISP and meta-reflection as the "Maxwell's Equations of software." A system without a meta-system is fundamentally handicapped in its ability to adapt and cope with complex, changing environments. * **Obsoleting Your Own Work:** Kay notes that Smalltalk was originally great at making previous versions of itself obsolete. He urges the audience not to let current, incomplete knowledge become a "religion" and leaves them with the advice to "Play it grand"—to aim for revolutionary leaps rather than settling for incremental tooling.

valderium

IMO Architecture encompass the entire stack: infra, llms, enterprise. It's going to require a reorganization of companies across all domains to validate it. Dimon and Karp are highlighting the core issue: management in America does not know how to use AI. Example: ***Coca***\-***Cola CEO*** James Quincey cited ***artificial intelligence*** as a factor in his decision to step down. They don't know what it can do and they don't know do to carrot/stick laborers to use it to produce shareholder value. And LLM/AI companies don't have the capital/relationships/IP (that's an antiquated term from the 20th century) to move in. When folks say AI is as revolutionary and innovative as electricity, I think that simile is ironically more salient: they are going to be governed liked utilities.

Upper-Olive4639

Counterpoint. Having cards with Dwight Schrute and Squidward on them is very very bad for a high fantasy game in the long term. Each UB set does well because it draws a ton of fans from that IP but many don’t return for the next set so they end up on this merry-go-round. 5 years ago, we’d get 40+ just for weekly tournaments in my area. Now we don’t even get the minimum of 8. I’ve spend the last year selling my 30 year old vintage magic collection worth $150k because of this.

RatGodFatherDeath

That’s the real market shift. HAS is an IP business that can also make video games and physical games and merch for those games.

Consistent-Guess94

Oh, I have. Everyday. Do not confuse today vs tomorrow. LLMs will be a race to the bottom to ensure the maximum output with the minimal input. There will be millions of LMs (note the lack of the first L) to serve specific niches. Enterprises are wising up … training niche models will become IP.

Whatdosheepdreamof

Right, so where is the R&D, in the IP theft from Anthropic and OAI? It seems like we're throwing stones out of glass houses here.

Samjabr

For once in my life I am rooting for Gynese thieves. We have two sociopaths running our top two AI labs. One is quite literally a scamster - how the fk do you turn a charity into a for profit? Not to mention stealing the IP of partners (Figma/Apple) The other one is using FUD to try to get the government to shut down all his competition. He's constantly preaching how AI will destroy all jobs, and then gleefully touts how awesome his AI models are. The richest part is the two of them created their LLMs by scraping data that didn't belong to them - and now they are crying like bitches because someone is doing the equivalent to them. These two sacks of shit are the embodiment of the type of person who will pull the ladder up behind them. You know the type. As soon as they are admitted to a club, they want to make it impossible for anyone else to join. Utter trash.

Whatdosheepdreamof

Honestly who cares if they are lying? I guarantee you they are not spending $100m+ per developer, or even $3bn like alphabet did? A $100m here, $1bn there, starts to add up... Forget about IP for a sec, because it's a null point, even the fact that you CAN distill a models reasoning should be reason enough to limit the amount of capital spent on researcher wages. $2-3tn spent so far on AI, no reason to spend that much when a significant sum has been to get to this stage. Maybe China has spent a significant amount, but it's not even a 1/10th of the cost.

Extension-Temporary4

I’m not going to sit here and say it’s about to jump 20%, or put any specific number to it, but I think snap has potential. Folks are so focused on how spectacles look, that they are missing the opportunity hiding in the shadows — the IP. That’s all I’ll say about that. 

MitchCurry

Just added to QXO (7% more shares), PRCT (13%), ISRG (6%), and NTDOY (13%). Nintendo is now my 2nd largest position (trailing MELI) by total cost basis (ex. ETFs which are \~1/2 of my total cost basis overall). My bull case on Nintendo: * Memory costs are cyclical and the JPY 100B FY27 guidance headwind from memory is transient * NTDOY guidance is legendarily conversative (some may even say outright sandbagging) * IP monetization is early (just 3% or total revenue) and will be a huge driver over the next decade * Install base of 100MM annual playing users drivers huge revenue regardless of future hardware sales * $14.3B is cash with zero debt. They can weather cyclical downturns, fund acquisitions, accelerate IP development, or just increase dividends Plenty can go wrong. I'm betting over the next 10+ years, they go right.

FrankReshman

Yeah, the Fortnite model of watering down your product so it appeals to the absolute largest number of consumers possible is incredibly profitable. But it's Hasbro who has been doing better than ever, not the Magic the Gathering IP. The IP is dead. 

SanDisk_Made_Me_Rich

I'm seeing great movies come out: The Odyssey & Obsession, which only cost $750K to make This just shows Disney has no idea what the fuck they're doing and have desecrated their IP: Start Wars in shambles, Marvel, Pirates of the Caribbean without Johnny Depp. It's a damn shame not only for the fans, but investors who've been bagholding a loss for years while Bob Iger gets rich in his Malibu/Holywood mansion

Open_State_6066

For me it’s the IP segment’s quarter over quarter run rate specifically. Once that stops shrinking sequentially, that’s a decent signal the AI capacity reallocation isn’t tightening further against the consumer volume side. Second thing: the adjusted EPS growth rate as the Ansys amortization annualizes through 2027, since that’s roughly when the accounting drag and the real cash economics should converge and the multiple debate gets a lot less noisy either way.

Market_Pro99

For me it’s the IP segment’s quarter over quarter run rate specifically. Once that stops shrinking sequentially, that’s a decent signal the AI capacity reallocation isn’t tightening further against the consumer volume side. Second thing: the adjusted EPS growth rate as the Ansys amortization annualizes through 2027, since that’s roughly when the accounting drag and the real cash economics should converge and the multiple debate gets a lot less noisy either way.

Market_Pro99

The variable missing from your list is worth digging into: it’s not just China exposure, it’s what sits inside that exposure. The IP licensing segment (pre-built circuit blocks licensed per unit) has been shrinking even excluding China, because fab capacity is getting reallocated toward AI accelerators at the expense of the high volume consumer parts, phones and PCs, that segment actually gets paid on per unit. That’s a demand mix problem, not a moat problem, and it doesn’t get fixed by China clarity or by finishing the Ansys integration. It shows up quietly because the core EDA software business is large enough to mask it in the headline growth number. On the valuation side, the trailing PE looks steep partly for accounting reasons. A meaningful chunk of GAAP earnings gets consumed every year by amortization of the intangibles created in the Ansys purchase, which is a real charge but not a cash cost. Forward multiples on adjusted EPS tell a different story than the trailing GAAP number does, so anchoring on the headline PE alone makes the stock look more disconnected from the underlying business than it may actually be.

Own-Recipe5908

The neat thing is if you're not hosting local you have that problem anyway, you don't really want your IP to leak to Openai->microsoft/USgov or anthropic. The neater thing is if you use the free open-source china models, you can run it local (Expensive hardware, but not that expensive for a firm) and it won't hack anything because it's literally just a .safetensor model weight, not a program, the programs to run it are free and no internet connection required.

IBUYVOTES

It's hard for me to see anyone with serious IP considerations pouring information into anything coming out of China. I could see why a cash strapped startup might do it, but that's a bit of a different situation.

mdatwood

> no risk of IP theft right Less risk, but not zero. For example, models can be poisoned to include a malicious package when generating code.

goober2341

You realize they'll self-host the models so there's no risk of IP theft right? That way, they're not sending all their data to Anthropic either.

CleanReplacement1525

This X 1000. Large american companies all have security specialists on board. NOT A CHANCE IN HELL anyone uses chinese anything for AI. The CEO knows, he will be held accountable when their IP is stolen, and there will be records that his own IT Security teams strongly recommended against him using chinese systems. Shareholders will sue the hell out of him for taking an insane risk like that. The CCP is tightly wound in with every chinese company.

bzl33

china is a country with massive unemployment, higher debt than us, older population than us, and relies on IP theft.

Fresh_Boysenberry576

Except most companies do not want AI companies to train their models on their IP so they will start self hosting models. Whether there will be enough consumer demand to justify all the data center investment is questionable imo

Ehh_littlecomment

I meant AI IP which they’re building all the data centres for. The core business is great.

DiceKnight

The crazy thing is they do actually have IP! They were fucking MINTING money but the amount wasn't changing a lot year over year which is just as bad as loosing money.

shitholejedi

The intrinsic value of a company includes the legal framework it operates under. IP laws being one explicit fact around that point

PiousLiar

Yea, currently in a AI/DL fundamentals class for my M.E. and the sheer amount of Chinese published papers (especially from the past couple of years) is astronomical. US lobotomized itself, and gave away their lead in science/tech development. China does do IP infringement, but to assume that’s all they do and their only mode for development and advancement is Red Scare 2.0 shit. Unironically, the Chinese century is arriving….

SigmaPhiZeta

You just proved you are absolutely clueless. At the foundation model level, it unequivocally a US-China race. Europe is NOT ripe for taking lmao they are YEARS behind and the gap will only widen, not narrow. Australia? Are you kidding me? Middle east? Not even worth mentioning, full stop. You’re confusing participation with competitiveness. Yes, every single developed country is investing in AI. That doesn’t make them a credible third pillar of frontier AI nor will they be anytime soon. Right now, it’s the US and China, followed by a massive gap to everyone else. You are also nuts if you actually think any Fortune 500 company will use a Chinese model just because it's cheaper. That’s an incredibly naive view of enterprise AI. Between data governance, security, compliance, IP concerns, export controls, and geopolitical risk, there won't be a single major Western company that uses these Chinese models, period. Also, cheaper open-weight models don’t magically shift leadership to Europe or Australia. That's such a bizarre take. If anything, they reduce barriers for everyone including US companies. The firms that own the best chips, largest data centers, strongest software ecosystems, and deepest enterprise relationships still have enormous competitive advantages.

Zealousideal_Book_40

The hardware cost is primarily specialized human labour and IP. The cost of raw materials is less than 1%.

Ehh_littlecomment

They don’t even have any IP. Just betting the house on renting out GPUs. Makes no damn sense to me.

phyziro

This is a typical strategy used by tech founders who found companies upon novel technology. This approach actually ensures that if the company: \- gets caught up in litigation, \- files for bankruptcy; and/or, \- some other material event occurs that leads to a wind down or forfeiture of company assets— the IP cannot be seized or forcibly transferred. Some predatory companies may: — attempt to seize IP using liens, — target IP through litigation, — use M&A valuations and business revenue accounting methods to buy valuable IP at discounted rates; — amongst many other nefarious things. What the founder did here was very smart. This ensures that if the company fails the owner can wind down operations without risking IP and none of the above methods risk his IP. My company uses this method. This ensures that we maintain maximum leverage over our IP. If a M&A deal occurs then we have two separate negotiating levers. One being the IP the second being a cash flowing company that validates the IP. The only problem here is that you bought a founders “dream.” Without a team that can execute on that dream that’s all it ever will be. You buy into execution, roadmap, team and founder competency; not grand visions. A founder that can execute on their big dreams and visions (e.g Steve Jobs, Elon Musk) are invaluable. They’ve proven capable of delivering, not just saying “I’m going to do this,” but it never happens. A patent is worthless until it’s not. Patents are mostly useless because the odds of owning a valuable patent are infinitesimally slim. Having a valuable patent these days is almost as lucky as winning the lottery, quite literally. So many patents result in novel technology or tools but most don’t go on to create massive new niches— e.g. the blender, the print and press — to name a few life changing innovations that also happened to be patented.

Flurp_

Ok but you realise they are running their "Chinese cheap AI model" (it's not cheap for starters) on the same chips and ram? It's not like that's changing. People really think anthropic and openai are crucial elements of the ai narrative, they're not. The bottleneck is not AI IP. It hasn't been for a very long time. It's extreme compute and the ultra high bandwidth data infrastructure to support it. And that IP is not simply copy-able or scalable. It is the most complicated industry in the world. China has managed to acquire the same ASML systems that Mu/tsmc/sk hynix/Samsung have. But that's not even *close* to enough to match the output quality, or to bump up supply. That's what a real moat is, and what the "us AI bubble" is based on

Anon_96818

A company with $2.5 billion in assets, not including IP, should be worth pennies?

Extreme_Lab_2961

They run a serious risk of that. Losing WB IP royally screwed them. Wheres the IP that’s going to attract eyeballs?

DizzyMajor5

Their quality is pretty terrible it's genuinely just throwing money away at this point. They don't have the old legacy IP like Disney and Warner Bros either 

kbenti

A lot. This is much more complicated than Solar Panels. The Chinese are trying to make solid state batteries right now. They are trying to make advanced node chips (<5nm) right now. Neither have been as successful as the ones that dominate the market. There are a lot of products the Chinese wish they could reverse engineer. Chemistry products are a lot harder. Material science products a re a lot harder. This has chemistry and material science, as well as other factors that protect their IP from reverse engineering.

Known_Palpitation805

The phase 2 results are stellar and are better than Brexpiprazole (Rexulti) which was FDA-approved in May 2023 for agitation associated with Alzheimer's dementia....and the Medipharm trial was in a much harder to treat (see older and sicker) population. The business is sustained by it's normal cannabis oil supply business unit and it has supply agreements the world over in tough to penetrate jurisdictions. It's not lighting the world afire but the business is at break-even and the phase 2 results aren't priced in in any way. IMO, the next 6 months will be a slow climb to mid-teens say. But with results like these, big pharma will come knocking and a partnership agreement is not an 'if' but 'when' and because the results are so good, the structure will be positive. Medipharm owns the IP as well. Either way, by years end, I expect a partnership and a SP at least at 30c quite possibly 50c if Fast Track and/or Break-Through is approved by the FDA for Phase 3. By next summer this could be at $1 or more if this company even exists by then. Medipharm has many irons in the fire, this Phase 2 being the most consequential, but there is more there and it's trading at fire sale levels.

Fun_Imagination_4678

When you compare this with Amazon in TCP/IP, Amazon wasn't really doing browsers or TCP/IP. They were basically providing goods . AI companies are providing intelligence, and intelligence is not commoditized. Their ability lies in building new models, and most foundational labs like Anthropic and OpenAI are releasing models every three to six months, which are better than previous models. Of course, models will catch up, but their ability in producing new models would make them win. If you have any specific questions, I am happy to answer those.

ThinkingOfTheOldDays

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

Deep_Calls_007

Anonymous User IWant69withMommy bought 200 million dollar Spy calls. IP location: White House

Equal_Analyst_5961

Yeah I get you. When it comes to the fandoms I think Nintendo has more hardcore fans than Sony. But that’s only on the gaming side. But Sony’s not just PlayStation like I alluded to. I do think it’s most valuable asset today isn’t PlayStation but its Music segment. Consider this, for the last fiscal year, PlayStation/SIE generated $31 Billion in revenue and $3 Billion in profit. Sony’s music segment on the other hand generated $14 Billion in revenue and $2.96 Billion in profit. That’s profits that are pretty much neck and neck with PlayStation’s with significantly less revenue. Also within the music segment is the heart of Sony’s anime business, which is Aniplex. So basically your Demon Slayer, Monogatari, Madoka Majika, Fate etc that’s got loads of passionate fans are basically from Sony. Sony has a tight grip on the fastest growing segment/demographic of entertainment (anime). Gaming is a somewhat mature business. We even see Sony’s anime strategy with the success of the Demon Slayer infinity castle movie last year. So the production company behind Demon Slayer anime is Aniplex. Aniplex then licenses the IP to its sister company, Sony Pictures (using Crunchyroll) to distribute it worldwide. The film is a massive box office hit and brings in $780 Million at the global box office (outgrossed Superman btw). That then ties back into Aniplex who owns the merchandise rights and sees a significant upside from merch and toy sales. Sony music Japan also owns the music too and gets a boost in revenue from that. This is called a flywheel. And Sony has perfected this flywheel vertical integration with it’s entertainment businesses. They also did it with The Last of Us where they took the IP from PlayStation, gave it to Sony pictures television to turn it into a hit show for HBO and then that drove up sales for TLOU games on PlayStation. See what I’m saying. Sony can take one IP and monetize it different ways and keep everything in house. Nintendo is now trying that with their IP but have to share the profits cos they do not own their own movie studio or theme park. In fact most of the box office upside for Mario movies go to Universal. Not Nintendo.  So yeah always remember that Sony’s not just PlayStation. They’re far from it. They’re the company that pockets your money when you stream Beyonce or Michael Jackson, or when you buy a Tanjiro figure, or when you watch a Spiderman film in theaters. That’s massive moat that is unique to them and them only. Whether you like it or not, fan or not, YOU WILL GIVE SONY MONEY. You can avoid Nintendo by not buying their consoles or games. With Sony it’s much harder to almost impossible unless you avoid all entertainment altogether 

goose_of_wall_street

You're making my point for me - Xaira's own pipeline goes through 10XG (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/10xgenomics\_xaira-preprint-activity-7340778812600631297-iTiU/). It's \*theoretically\* possible they could create their entire new tech, but 10X Genomics is aggressively litigious around IP and have already taken down NanoString. I can't imagine a competitor showing up anytime soon. The biggest threat is Ultima IMO

AsexualMeatMannequin

Using china’s models does not hand over IP to china

Vintageturtles

The stock market is forward looking, so blowout earnings help justify the run up in prices, but the market is looking for signs that demand is slowing. The idea is AI isn't profitable, and the demand for data centers is going to wane until someone makes money on AI. Just look at how many American companies are using China's AI Models and basically handing over their business info to a country known for IP theft. The explosive growth in chips has already happened, the issue now is can it hang on to the gains.

FunkyGrowMan

you can say negative things against arabs all day long on this site but the second someone has a negative view of zionists you are perma IP banned.

ThinkingOfTheOldDays

I care because fuck gyna and their constant IP theft.

LarkoVelvet

If this holds up, it could explain why the Apple-OpenAI partnership fell apart so quietly last year. Wild that we might get discovery documents showing exactly how much of Apple's hardware IP leaked during those integration talks.

RexDraco

At your age, safe investments are best. You start to need to take more risk later because you have less time to build and grow it. When you have more disposable income, that's when you start looking for higher risk investments because you can start diversifying with ease. For example, I personally believe AI and automation is going to be a gold mine, but I also believe almost all of them will crash and burn and one will reign supreme... I will need to diversify to benefit from this, which means a lot of gambling money. With safe investments, it's almost a certainty it will grow; even with a recession crash it will eventually pop back. S&P 500 is an easy choice for me in your shoes. With that said, why not also have some fun? What are your interests, do any of them consists of items that will grow in value over time? I like tabletop games and guns, both of which grew in value over time. I made my money back with both guns and magic the gathering, all just buy consuming. This is what commodities are, they're product with value that might go in greater value, but locally in your closet! You get to have fun with it! In my humble opinion, buying IP based Magic the Gathering booster boxes is free money. Go ahead, look at the prices for Spongebob. I sincerely think Avatar may be the nest big one, but Lord of the Rings and Marvel is up there too. Spiderman already is going up in value in spite some repeats in the Marvel sets. Some board games of mine I haven't even gotten around to play, they still have the plastic on, but they're out of print, so they're basically 5-10 times their value now. A lot of them lost value, but the ones that went up went up by a lot. My China SKS, for whatever reason, tripled my original investment in the timespan of ten years which is better than most stocks. I am just consuming, but I make more money than arguably most investors from being strategic in understand what retains value and grows and what doesn't (I for one think Funko Pops are gonna be huge, but I plan to wait for the crash, I think it's gonna be real bad but the original wave will randomly spike in value in ten years). This is a great way for someone young, such as yourself, to be both an investor and having fun.

Primary_Olive_5444

Hock Tan (Broadcom) the acquirer and the conquest for IBM. Gives them more compute IP, doesn’t need to rely on x86 and Arm. Mainframes will still be in demand.

Mindless-Bake8352

1) He was de-credentialed immediately. The laptop was bricked 2) He accessed Apple files, via an active Apple employee's computer, via an unknown bug 3) Apple IT security, flagged the activity and started logging "all" the activity, text and internal employee emails. They left the door open and recorded all the activity, which include instructions from him on how to avoid Apple Security. 4) He bragged how easy it was to evade Apple lol, essentially admitting on record that he stole IP

pineapplekiwipen

*What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.*

gUHrayt

This is, in part, exactly what Karp was ranting about not long ago. He’s enduring headwinds when landing new contracts in the industry from companies who don’t want their IP stolen by the tools that these companies want to use, which is exactly what the current LLMs are doing: harvesting the data fed into them.

konawolv

Ok, I misunderstood considering the post is about Microsoft stock and ai fears around its products. But yeah, basically, anything that is a front end software will likely become built in house. Hyperscalers will also eventually get hit too when everyone starts buying their own gpus and running open source models in house to save one token expenditure as well as keep their IP safe.

botname3822

Interesting that a movie about a decades-old character and IP is automatically "DEI" because it's a woman-led production. They never did those pre-DEI!!

Ppurplex

Ever heard about IP TV?

AppropriateBad503

Honest question. Are you another naive untravelled messianic-cult-of-america type who actually believes after the usas behavior since WW2 and especially the past decade that it will even be a member of western civilization in 10 years, let alone sticking its militism in energy corridors we depend on for a bit of coercion while calling it policing?  There is no bretton woods 3.  We all learnt from bretton woods 2.  You don't think we are letting you run ponzi as a militant messianic cult again do you?  You are out kids.  Totally out.  You are out of Europe, the Commonwealth, all of it.  And the EU alternative energy build out is exploding because they will never let you coerce them on resources or security again.  The hand is played.  You are gone.  Your bases, your monopolies, your operating licenses, your IP, and your people.  It's a hard divorce.  America has an ideology that is incompatible with western civilization. The posing is over.  You are out.  

tantricengineer

Imagine throwing your career away to do some IP theft. Maybe the payoff is good enough you'll never work again, but then again, pissing off Apple's legal team means you'll be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life.

WebOsmotic_official

Regardless of how this case turns out, one thing is becoming clear: AI companies need much stronger governance around employee onboarding and IP handling. There's a big difference between training on public data and bringing confidential company information into a new employer. The latter isn't an AI problem - it's a compliance problem.

Gositi

I think its doubtful if the dektop metaphor can count as IP.

yellowstickypad

Other country governments are definitely capable of doing that but for a good many decades it was just more convenient to buy American goods (software, defense, IP). Might be another few decades to fix that or it might never get fixed in our lifetimes.

drew-gen-x

That's why I am buying $VXUS, $EWJ, and $VPL over $VTI. I want Kioxia, ASML, SK Hynix, Samsung, and TSM over NVIDIA, AMD, and the US $SOXX stocks. This is another variation of the HALO trade buying the actual fabs manufacturing the damn chips. IP only gets you so far and then you are at the mercy of paying the price for fab manufacturing capacity just like everyone else.

Unique_Statement7811

Yes. Also negotiating with the original IP owner and signing an agreement for use makes it all legit.

Ok-Garlic-3202

Random Conspiracy Theory: Apple wanted their employees to leak information to OAI, so then Apple can sue OAI and get \[x\] (license OAI tech for cheap, etc). I recall DEC sued both Microsoft and Intel for stealing IP, and DEC got some nice deals from it (Windows ported to DEC Alpha; and a huge cash payout from Intel plus Intel had to buy DEC's under utilized fab for way above market value).

Familiar-Suspect730

Looking for a sharing subscription stock talk insiders Looking for stock talk insiders/ stock talk weekly shares account \\\[LF\\\] Stock Talk Insiders / Stock Talk Weekly \\\[H\\\] 50% cost split via PayPal / Revolut Hi everyone, I am looking to get access to \\\*\\\*Stock Talk Insiders\\\*\\\* (or Stock Talk Weekly), but the standalone monthly fee is a bit too high for me right now. I’m looking for 1 or 2 partners to split the cost evenly. Since this community operates on Discord via Whop, we would need to be smart about it to avoid IP conflicts. What works and what I have done before is that we create a discord server ourselves and I share the information shared directly on that server the moment a new post appears. \\\*\\\*My Payment Methods:\\\*\\\* Revolut If you are interested or are also looking for a way to make this subscription cheaper, please comment here first and then send me a DM!

FewWeek0

Don’t care that he wasn’t sued individually. That’s never how these lawsuits work. He’s the CEO of a company that misappropriated Apple’s IP.

Mother___Night

yes! great movie. shit was really contentious back in the day, which is why the sudden flare up (Apple essentially suing a MSFT proxy company) is so spicy. If those companies really want to go at it, the amount of antitrust and IP litigation would employ half the lawyers in the country.

terminalguy007

The dot-com comparison is worth unpacking numerically. In 2000, Intel traded at 50x earnings and 10x book — priced for secular dominance of a world that had yet to materialize. Today INTC trades below book value, which means the market is saying the physical assets — fabs, equipment, IP — are worth more in liquidation than as a going concern. That's a fundamentally different kind of pessimism. The 2000 crash was a valuation correction; this is a business model question. The foundry bet is the real variable. If IFS gets to 3–4 major external customers at 18A, the economics change dramatically — you're essentially getting the fab infrastructure at a discount because the market is pricing it as a failed CPU company, not as a potential contract manufacturer. TSMC didn't build its moat overnight. The bear case is execution risk and cash burn; the bull case is that you're buying optionality on a strategic asset the U.S. government has explicitly said it wants to exist domestically. Neither of those is a 2000 dynamic.

terminalguy007

The legal theory here is more interesting than the headline suggests. Trade secret litigation against a former partner — Apple and OpenAI had a deeply embedded commercial relationship around Siri and on-device AI integration — is notoriously difficult to prosecute. The plaintiff must prove (1) the information qualifies as a trade secret, (2) reasonable steps were taken to maintain secrecy, and (3) misappropriation occurred. The third element is where Apple will face the hardest fight: OpenAI has thousands of employees, many of whom likely interacted with Apple technical teams, and establishing that any specific capability in OpenAI's models derives from misappropriated Apple IP rather than independent development is a high evidentiary bar. The more common outcome in partner-turned-competitor IP disputes is a protracted discovery process followed by a confidential settlement — not a courtroom verdict. The real leverage Apple is seeking is likely contractual compliance or licensing terms, not damages. From a stock perspective, this suit is more relevant to OpenAI's IPO timeline and valuation than to Apple's. An unresolved trade secret lawsuit with a former integration partner introduces material legal risk that any underwriter will price into OpenAI's offering. For Apple itself, the investment thesis is unchanged: Services gross margins continue expanding (now above 74%), the installed base of 2.2 billion active devices grows steadily, and the Siri/Apple Intelligence trajectory remains intact regardless of OpenAI's status as a partner. Apple replaced its original OpenAI integration agreement at WWDC, suggesting the company is already managing the dependency risk. The litigation is likely more about competitive positioning and deterrence — signaling to other AI companies that Apple's internal technical IP has a legal perimeter — than about any near-term material financial outcome. Treat it as corporate legal positioning, not a fundamental catalyst.

realribsnotmcfibs

The thing is the biggest “debts” can be to Microsoft but Microsoft did not invest in anything but a shell company with a name. It does not actually hold any voting rights, any IP for chat gtp etc.

9966

You exchange magic beans to cursor who can sell them while the market still thinks they have value and then let the people if fine regard hold the bags when you've moved on and own the IP and infrastructure.

terminalguy007

The investor angle here is more interesting than the initial headlines.IP theft cases are notoriously hard to win. Apple has to prove (1) it had protectable trade secrets, (2) reasonable measures to protect them, and (3) misappropriation. The alleged facts — employees using company-issued laptops, emailing hardware summaries before departures, "show and tell" sessions during job interviews — are specific enough to get past a motion to dismiss, but converting that into a damages award is a multi-year process with uncertain odds.A few things worth parsing for investors:On AAPL: This isn't primarily a litigation bet, it's a signal. Apple rarely sues competitors unless it's trying to create leverage or deter future employee movement. The IP involved is reportedly iPhone hardware architecture — the kind of edge computing and on-device inference work that is central to Apple Intelligence. If OpenAI was genuinely absorbing that to build consumer devices, Apple's moat in hardware/software integration is the concern, not just the lawsuit.On OpenAI: Still private, so the equity impact is opaque, but this adds to its regulatory and litigation overhang. The FTC investigation, the NY AG nonprofit-conversion scrutiny, and now this — each individually manageable, collectively they're a pattern that could complicate any future IPO valuation. Precedent for IP damages in tech ranges from tens of millions to over a billion (Waymo/Uber settled for \~$245M plus 0.34% equity in 2018). If Apple gets into that range, it's material.The "whistleblowers" framing is also notable. If Apple's own former employees are cooperating as witnesses, the evidentiary record is stronger than a typical corporate IP suit. That moves this from "PR posturing" to "actual litigation risk."Still early innings. But worth watching how OpenAI's corporate restructuring and IPO timeline interact with this.

wowthisislong

Because crime used to be illegal and you would get fucking nuked from orbit for IP theft. Now its "if you aint cheatin you aint tryin"

Krillin113

Normal companies: get IP, show it works to some degree, get money. Musk: come up with sci-fi, lie you can deliver in 2-4 years, get money, start research, delay, get more money, deliver <50% of the promise. Seriously, he promised so much that inventing fuck g reusable self landing rockets from scratch is under delivering.

pigeon_shit

What’s crazy is all the memory tech is simply stolen IP from NLST…

WorldlyWar2143

Nah, I can imagine having my a cold day and hopping into my BMW only to discover I can go fuck myself instead of turning on my heated seats because I didn't pay the monthly subscription to BMW for it. Then I go complain online about it and catch an IP ban. Decide to torrent some games and get permabanned from ISP services. Go for a drive and get tracked by flock only to be met behind Wendy's, held down, and well.. you know the rest

ambidextrous12

SKHY IP0'd at 149$. The trading day ended at 172$ That's a 15% pump on a day in which the rest of the market is sideways and with the iram war reignition worries. But yeah "zero bids in force for the SK hynix listing"

Filthy_Joey

You mean they instructed you *not to* use stuff that can be related to your previous company IP?

Th1rt13n

Can you not read? Plus they are worth at least the spectrum & the IP they own. Elmo has got nothing to do with that. And if we’re talking about it, BO will come back, not that if Elmo didn’t exist that ast would not either. You’re mixing up too many things at once

Seienchin88

Don’t bet on it just yet… OpenAI, Grok and Anthropic have the protection of the American government and the U.S. knows if Apple succeeds it will severely hinder the AI boom the U.S. is at the moment betting everything on. This would also just be the beginning - Anthropic also has IP protected and even non public data from my company as well. It’s even very easy to check… but so far we didn’t dare to bring them to court given the U.S. government protection and our company suffered from nearly a decade of lawfare against us in the last when we got into a government supported company‘s way (we solved it by buying a large supplier for the DoD, hired thousands of Americans and have had always at least one American executive board member…)

CulturalChampion8660

Yea, i don't know. I never worked for Lockheed and only know what was causally told to me. He just mentioned that IP theft was constant. I dont work in the field, I don't know shit. The same guy that told me this spent 30 years building spy satellites. When MH370 went missing he casually mentioned he had worked on satellites in the 90's that tracked every heat signature from any aircraft or missile etc on the entire planet and that the US knows exactly where that plane is but doesn't want to reveal its capabilities. I dunno. 

venhuje

Jippity Joppity, your IP is my property

JehanScript

Yup, the other day I got to witness a "prompt engineer" write a long ass wall of text to have a LLM generate a picture of the disney princesses playing beach volleyball, he thought he was clever by not using anything relates to Disneys IP and was bragging about Jailbreaking the model when in reality the model knows that if you describe a brunette wearing a yellow dress you are talking about Belle because the model was trained in all the stolen IP from Disney. Dork shit

Apprehensive_Gap3673

Ironic because AI as we know it could not exist with systemic theft of IP

Dry-Magician1415

I wonder if it technically gives Apple the right to pull the ChatGPT app from the Appstore. If the IP that has been stolen has made it's way into the ChatGPT app, then it must violate SOME appstore rule and be grounds for the app being taken down. Either way they should threaten this. It would virtually kill OpenAi's consumer business.

42nu

BREAKING NEWS: u/kadam_ss has described generic office work as though it is unique to Apple. NEXT: Did you know that IP is a thing? And that companies protect IP?

daynighttrade

> you have no reasoning beyond “China bad”. > Chinese firms are the masters of corporate espionage. This is just an rare example of that in the West. For Chinese firms, look at how they got their semiconductor industry started. They stole lots of IP from Nokia, Ericson, TSMC, SK-Hynix, Samsung among others. And you say this has nothing to China. This doesn't seem like an enough reason? Lookup Huawei and SMIC and the corporate espionage that they have done in the past. How much do you get paid by the CCP?

nomoremoar

This is insane and unbelievable. No way OAI lawyers were this dumb to encourage IP theft and no way OAI actually coached the employees. This smells like a lawsuit to get discovery on OAI or put a full stop to their poaching which they’ve been heavily doing.

EI-SANDPIPER

I never understood why Netflix is worth more than Disney,.when Disney has parks, ESPN and IP

viral3075

"evasion" could mean absolutely anything, but of course they have no problem stealing others' IP

Viktri1

There's some real irony here on a few levels. From Apple was safer working w/ Chinese companies that don't steal its IP to OpenAI accusing Deepseek is stealing its IP.

dcp04

Please look into the trade secret theft that Samsung, Micron and Google have been getting away with for many years now. Netlist IP drives AI innovation.

fansonly

No they aren't. They are looking at the debt problem. OpenAI is going to run in to financing problems. Frontier models bear the burden of massive data center costs. If they capital dries up because people are worried: 1. OpenAI ethnics are suspect 2. OpenAI LLMs have stolen IP that makes them vulnerable to lawsuits outside of Apple 3. OpenAI can't service its debt (very real issue) 4. All of the above Dollar cost aside, OpenAI can't afford the litigations impact on reputation.

Rock_or_Rol

OpenAI: I thought you guys were cool with the whole IP rip off thing

daynighttrade

> China in a thread that has nothing to do with China Maybe I don't care about their social credits and you do need their social credits Chinese forms are the masters of corporate espionage. This is just an rare example of that in the West. For Chinese firms, look at how they got their semiconductor industry started. They stole lots of IP from Nokia, Ericson, TSMC, SK-Hynix, Samsung among others. And you say this has nothing to China.

Rock_or_Rol

I kind of don’t blame them 😂 did you google the OpenAI phone? It looks exactly like an iPhone, it’s actually kind of funny lol I’m going to let my inner redditor out and point out the irony of them being so possessive of IP tho

IdkAbtAllThat

I'm referring to the comment about open source models being the future. Everyone knows all these models were trained on stolen IP yet there have been no consequences. Obviously this hardware case is different and Apple will rake them over the coals.

2d12-RogueGames

My wife is an IP attorney. Trade secret cases are often the death of companies if a client is rich enough to go the distance. How much cash is Apple sitting on?

IdkAbtAllThat

I'm more referring to your statement that open source models are the future. No one is ever going to see consequences for using stolen IP to train their models. I agree this is completely different, this is stolen hardware and Apple will probably torch their asses.