IP

Low_Technician9179

So the US invents ChatGPT, AI and will lose because china has more electricity (and no regard for IP). That’s rough

denverpilot

Depends on how long their NSA contracts are for, at least for SpaceX. A new division of Boeing(tm)! Tesla also likely would be bought and sucked dry of IP. Grok would be piecemealed for IP or already up and running data center space. I’m sure there’s already a formal plan for business continuity like anything that big. Whether the shareholders would like it is another story.

JJY199

Horrible company run by someone thats only ever known dumb luck It was very close to burning itsself out in the early days as Zuckerberg didnt have a clue what he was doing i think it was Peter Thiel that came in and basically told them they had to start advertising immediatley Zuckerberg doesn't know what an original idea is the entire company is built and founded upon other peoples IP and M&A However they are a cash machine and are heavily in bed with the current plotical administration who will make sure theres no real lawsuits or regs they have to face When Trump eventually dies i suspect meta could be in big trouble

PyloPower

Imagine thinking Netflix is worth more than all the competitors combined. Because they have that juicy... IP, I guess? Oh right all their IP is shit.

CommercialHour6660

To me the interesting part is China.  US oligarchs were running the well worn Silicon Valley monopoly playbook. Pick a few winners early. Make sure the good olde boys have all their cash in. Use vast weath (not innovation) to get years ahead of the competition. Then shut everyone else out via regulatory capture and monopoly practices.  You can see their different approaches play out. Buy up all the ram for the next 3 years of production. Buy up all the chips. Fearmonger about Gyna and pretend you care about "responsible safe AI" while your agents commit dozens of felonies. Lock down your apis so they're barely usable to protect the IP you stole.  The problem is that China isn't playing ball. South Korean Chaebols will gladly price fix for you and lock your competitors out of the market for a fee. Europe is, no offense, still the US's bitch boy and won't dare build competing industry. China said nah fuck that we'll just make our own RAM and AI chips and models with open weights and hookers and blow.  You're seeing the US tech monopoly that been run by the same broligarchs for decades unravel. Caused ironically by a free market nation like US was once. For the first time the winners weren't chosen in a Signal chat with Musk, Thiel, Sand Hill Rd and the Paypal Mafia. China won't collude with them or stamp out the competition because they want their own AI industry. And China is the king of commodities. Their whole angle is using their vast free market to destroy entrenched inefficient monopolies.  Every time China releases a free model the collapse of US oligarchy comes closer. The latest DeepSeek is as good as Opus 4.7 for 1% of the price. US broligarchs invested in scale instead of model efficiency and now Gyna is out innovating them.  Honestly fuck em. OpenAI and Anthropic were planning for decades of price gouging. The typical you'll own nothing and be happy. They were even talking about everyone having "subscriptions for intelligence". Now we're a few years away from having Claude at home. Running on Chinese hardware they can't gatekeep in their datacenters. 

soareyousaying

Pure AI companies are the ones having trouble generating enough revenue. Their only exit strategy is getting bought out for their IP. Companies like Google and AWS with existing services will benefit the most from AI. AI is an enhancement, not a product in itself. If you've got nothing else to sell, there's nothing to enhance.

evasivelogic

This is a casino, but I suppose I'm drunk enough to answer. Cash hoard, brand awareness and loyalty, exclusivity, games with high prices and long tails, IP, diversification.... but it's all been priced in already, the shoeshine boy told me so!

letsgobernie

This would be absolutely devastating if they tried it. So far they've stolen from lone academics, for instance, the navier-stokes equation. What are they going to do? Ateal from research materials, and published information, rearrange it and sell it back to pharma companies whose whole racket is monopoly pricing rights based on some IP? It would be a bloodbath of litigation

drummer820

All the discussion about whether and how useful LLMs are misses the main point: It’s an obviously stupid business model for a company like CoreWeave to take on astronomical levels of very high interest debt to finance what is basically a high tech version of Rent-A-Center without a real moat or IP

SlowInterest3000

Spot on thesis. Neoclouds aren’t a tech play; they’re a leverage-funded asset leasing play masquerading as software high-margin businesses. The structural decay rate is even faster here than in shipping**.** Ships depreciate linearly over 20 years; GPUs face hyperbolic pricing drops every 18–24 months as new architectures roll out. Instead of cheap maritime financing, neoclouds are paying 10–11%+ private credit rates on hardware that loses 50%+ of its rental pricing power the moment the next-gen chip ships. The current 3–5 year pre-let contracts hide the underlying risk. When those expire, older clusters will hit a spot market constrained by custom in-house silicon (TPUs, Trainium) and hyperscale capacity. Just like legacy ship lessors, the underlying compute infrastructure will survive and power the world, but the capital structures will get wiped out. Value migrates down to chip IP and up to software applications leaving pure-play GPU lessors holding the debt graveyard.

Poka-yoke1

The mega data centers that hoover up everyone's data are going away. Companys will use smaller decentralized applications to minimize IP theft.

purplepistachio

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

Olangotang

They starved smaller labs, hence why China is able to play catch-up with Open Source. The large corporations invested in this because their investors and executives are mentally unwell from "infinite line go up". They deserve their IP getting reverse engineered and stolen, and there is nothing they can do with Open Source models out. They are so fucking regarded that they supported a tool that can destabilize the system itself.

magikarpe94

They’re moving into the IP business hard, only reason in my mind that would justify that number maybe not right away but likely in the future. Definitely not a fan of their obfuscated non standard accounting practices but they seem well poised

farsightfallen

It's really hard to build a business that costs 100s billions to train a model, and then other companies can just distill it down for 10s mns, that's 90% effective, for 99% of the work by volume. Unless they get some IP protection or regulatory capture, it's going to be an uphill climb. Claude is amazing, but if I had to pay API prices, there are better solutions for most of the work. Maybe strategic use of fable or w/e for release review.

nomdeplume

Actually most companies at large scale are not stuck on their b2b solutions. Which is why gateways exist. At the labs today a very small number of very large customers make up their rev. Those large customers have the resources to swap inference. You call opus or you cal sol, but swapping it is actually painless. Part of how easy it is to use inference lowers switching costs astronomically. Until they can make IP worthy models in niche markets that can't be distilled (they can't do this btw) they have no most other than capacity and brand

ObservationalHumor

Market is insanely bearish on the company despite there really not being any better plays out there. Paramount is loaded up to the gills with debt after its recent acquisitions, Peacock is likely to be sold to Netflix, and Disney is way more mature and bigger behemoth of a company with even less opportunities for growth. Similarly Apple TV and Amazon Prime Video are both part of far bigger and more mature companies without much existing IP either. I mean there's a argument that the prior P/E of 40-50ish was too aggressive and it won't get there again but reading this thread you'd think there was someone else out there doing everything right and that both Skydance and Oracle weren't both up to their eyeballs in debt. Who's the faster and more agile player here? Where's the better growth opportunity? Who is going to out maneuver them? It's possible it goes lower but damn if it doesn't feel like we're at/near peak pessimism on this stock.

Me-Regarded

Have change your router mac address, new IP, new phone honestly as well

convicted-mellon

I don’t see how they can do that without their IP instantly becoming an open weight Chinese model

MoesOtherBar

They should've spent the extra $2B and bought WBD, better IP than they'll ever have in WB library.

you_are_wrong_tho

lol the spectrum they have rights to is valued at $18b. MC sitting at $18b now. That doesn’t count their IP, factories, 17 sats produced.

Easy_Ease3396

As if US NSA hasn't been doing the same lol? Even the US industrial revolution was based on IP theft stolen from Europe. And of course Europe stole all the tea and silk production trade secrets from China so the cycle just continues 

launchedsquid

they build their own. The age of accepting US arms in exchange for not building their own is over. We've already seen Europe buy European developed early warning radar planes instead of Boeing Wedgetails. The UK has been developing missiles specifically with no US components or IP. The damage is done, and bit by bit Europe is building it's own arms manufacturer capacity. It'll take time, but it will keep happening and US arms manufacturers will miss more and more contracts that previously were almost taken for granted.

NoAd4056

Just checked. Eerything it has used is aloud to be used publicly. This still doesn't move the needle. 2 years ago open source code that engineers built was not accessible to me. Now, within 2 hours and a handful of sentences, I can have this magic robot compile multiple different tools that are of use to me, and have it packaged in a UX that suits exactly my workflow. But you've touched on exactly the pertinent part of the entire inevitable revolution: LLM's and coding agents are now a top to bottom abstraction layer that will bring total software accessibility, of any kind, to anyone, and for incredibly cheap. Specialised software as we know it is going to evaporate. Engineers IP is now completely arbitrary because in the next few years, the magic robots won't even need to rely on open-source code from GitHub. It will just build anything you want completely bespoke, from the ground up, and will do it better than any human who has ever lived. In a very short 10-15 years, the younger generation will look back at the Software Fuedalism of the past and think how wierd it would have been to live in a world where there were only a few dozen programs that worked on an elite level, you had to chose one or two ecosystems to work with otherwise you couldn't reliablely collaborate with anyone and you had pay a monthly fee just to use them. If you can't see that coming you're just idealogically opposed to it out of spite. You can't make a single defensible argument that would suggest otherwise beyond authoritive intervention. Anyway, you've now been categorically wrong 3 times in a row. Any other piss weak strawmans you want to make? I would say I'm engaged enough to blow them over but to be honest they don't even stand on their own

punished_kot

It's not wrong, it's just misattributed. For example, critical bugs are up like 2,000% in the past 5 years. This isn't because AI is shipping shit code, it's because people use AI to identify and create exploits. This *does* massively increase the workload the software engineers are under. We now have to address 2,000% more bugs than we did before. Yes, we can expedite this using AI, but it's difficult to say how much more net productivity we're earning. We're producing more lines of code but so much of that is only to fend off the massive increase in vulnerabilities and exploits. Another example in open source code is that AI-generated contributions have to be meticulously tested and reviewed, creating a huge load on maintainers that didn't exist before. You can also imagine now there will be an enormous effort to protect IP as you watch popular software like photoshop or PS5 games be reverse engineered into free and open source copies, which is effectively AI piracy.

Cold-Reaction-3578

If any of that is true, why the fuck would you tell a colleague? Also there's no such thing as your "own IP" that is related to your job. Most employment contracts explicitly state that you do not own IP on work that is developed using company resources (I.e. your pay and any company equipment)

Proupin

The fallout is going to be a sight to behold. Even if they succeed in shoving AI down our throats, they are never making their money back… never. Local AIs are going to become more and more appealing, run cheaper, more privately, and quick enough, at a rate that is going to outpace cloud computing. And the hilarious part? They’re going to try to shut it down, down the legal path, claiming IP infringment. Fucking LOL. To top it off, companies such as Google and Apple do not give two fucks about AI, as it is not their main bussiness anyway, so they have the firepower to offer AI mostly for free, undercutting Anthropic and friends. AI was always going to be headed towards commoditization. Can’t put doors in an open field.

serpentine19

Might want to read you contract. Any decent company will have a clause saying anything made by ypu that is work related is the companies IP. I have seen many people think the way you do and they got a rude awakening when they tried to tell the company lawyers otherwise.

jld1532

Yeah, we built out and run models locally. We aren't giving these companies our IP.

slickback9001

You can’t really calculate that because there isn’t a set value for anthropic shares yet. If the stake is worth 300B at IPO then that would be about 7% of their market cap but market cap isn’t equal to the value of the assets of the company, it’s also based off of forward earnings, IP and a bunch of other things

SellingTheta

Their spectrum + IP is worth more then their market cap atm.

Easy_Ease3396

The whole Navia Stokes debacle showed why you don't want to put any novel/important IP on any non local AI provider 

PrinceDX

I told one of my Sr. Developers recently that I have my own private account that has workflows and plans related to my job. Any charts I create or work patterns I think through are my own IP and I won’t drop that into the companies AI tools at all. If I go the knowledge of why my systems work the way they do and how I problem solve comes with me. Doesn’t matter what the company is, keep your job security in your own hands

New_Interview5468

One more issue: AI has probably some pretty interesting litigation risks. 1. It relies on other people's data to be trained with (fine if trained by users but there's also a lot of IP protected stuff floating in that training data) and 2. if an AI agent goes rogue or is misused and caused some serious damages there are probably a lawyer or two who'd like a couple of millions by making a case. As long as AI itself is more or less a pro bono thing people, governments and courts are a bit more relaxed than if AI companies were actually making the trillions they promise its potential shareholders.

Samjabr

Yeah, pretty sure I said nothing of the sort. I literally stated China has a ton of Engineers. They are great at copying and then mass producing. Shouldn't be shocking considering 1.4 Billion people and their students aren't encouraged to get degrees in Art-History, French Poetry, or Women's studies. All I'm saying is that some shit is hard as hell to copy or everyone would do it. You don't think American companies haven't thought about getting in on the EUV game? All you have to do is license 1000 patents from the Netherlands, Japan, and the US (assuming you aren't going to commit IP theft...), train your engineers on tech that they have literally never seen before, and then mass produce it. [https://turbli.com/blog/why-is-it-so-hard-for-china-to-develop-jet-engines/](https://turbli.com/blog/why-is-it-so-hard-for-china-to-develop-jet-engines/)

h8beinsober08

And yet they cannot create any products without stealing IP It's almost like you dont know cheating is deeply ingrained in their culture

LightseekerLife

The first point I added is the most critical for your question I think. Existing alternatives couldn't risk the legal battle to clone interfaces and workflows that allowed for an easy transition from embedded Adobe users. So to not lose the high labor that was put into the product they had different workflows so they wouldn't be sued. This product moves so fast and is made so cheap that there appears to be less fear of legal recourse on the creator's part. Legal issues probably will still happen, but it will be too late as the software will be too mature and exist everywhere. Unless IP law is completely rewritten in the next couple of months (which seems very unlikely), then Adobe can't put this cat back in the bag.

Tricky-Visual-771

Wild. [Character.AI](http://Character.AI) filing for bankruptcy and selling assets to Disney for $20M is peak 2020s tech drama, AI hype meets corporate IP hunger. Shows how fast the space flips from "future of chatbots" to liquidation headlines.

callesucia

Yup, you get the tech and preserve your IP. What makes me wonder is if the bigger names like Google and Microsoft will be able to sell AI to users and smaller businesses. Developing and running an in house model is expensive and technically difficul, so smaller companies and non techy users won't go that route.

convicted-mellon

I work at a publicly traded company and literally you could be describing my company verbatim. It’s going in house and trained on local data for security. Eventually I think 95% of companies with important IP will come to that conclusion

BrockDouken13

Chatgpt is the one in trouble anthropic's is for programmers at companies. Copilot for business workers and Gemini for consumers.  Apple can pick up any IP that is worth

TastyCalligrapher421

Agreed. Fuck IP thieves. https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/dram/cxmt-planned-to-use-stolen-samsung-ip-to-develop-its-dram-court-hears-former-samsung-engineer-who-jumped-to-chinese-memory-maker-now-behind-bars

TastyCalligrapher421

As he should, cxmt has repeatedly stolen IP from Samsung and Micron.

bzl33

nah, Google bought their IP and a bunch of their employees joined Google too

MuellMichDoNichtVoll

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little shit? Ill have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and Ive been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and Im the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. Youre fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and thats just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little clever comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldnt, you didnt, and now youre paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. Youre fucking dead, kiddo.

foo-foo-jin

And intel and Microsoft. Basically 3dfx was about to win its ip infringement case against Nvidia. Nvidia licensed that ip to intel. 3dfx had already given notice to intel to not use the IP. Intel ignored warning. OG Xbox was going 3dfx. Intel cut a deal in Xbox for copy but required Microsoft to go Nvidia on graphics. Nvidia gave intel even sweeter license deal. Microsoft paid Nvidia for Xbox. 3dfx stock tanked even more because loosing Microsoft with the Xbox. Nvidia buys IP from 3dfx and guts company. Lawsuit is wound down. Shareholder lawsuits start but there nothing to gain at this point as intel has lawyer money that would tie it up for decades. Gg.

TyberWhite

I think there’s a misunderstanding. There is no theft of any IP. These applications are “clones” in their function/purpose, much like how Gimp is a replacement for Photoshop.

PeachScary413

If they claim you reversed and stole proprietary IP of their software you will be in a lot of shit (only valid if the companies you ripped off are large and have their own legal department)

TyberWhite

You’re misunderstanding. There is no legal infraction. We haven’t compromised any TOS or stolen any IP. We have built our own versions of these applications within legal bounds. You don’t need to break any rules to build your own ERP.

LightseekerLife

Large corporations will be the last to move, but also this software runs locally and being open-source means it is actually easier to vet for any malicious code than Adobe's is. In theory, there is greater risk of IP theft from closed-source Adobe software that could export IP without your knowledge than an open-source alternative that is run locally.

LightseekerLife

They don't claim to be a perfect clone yet. They are pushing for end of month parity, which I think that they will achieve. But yes, I agree that outside of legal action and IP law changing, closed source software will be very difficult. For a while, people will keep paying for the entrenched software, but as it becomes equitable and companies get guarantees that they don't open themselves to legal risk with free/cheap alternatives, they will switch over time. It will be a slow bleeding death for Adobe, but I think at this point it is all but certain.

LightseekerLife

I am a software engineer. I have done software engineering vocationally for over a decade. Now, Opus 5.5 and GPT 6 plan code and execute better and faster than I ever feasibly could. It has its limitations in design and taste, but a tool product like this doesn't really require either of those things. Software engineering is a dying field. Unless you are a principal engineer who can do high-quality MR reviews, or a visionary who sees the product that customers need, then the engineers are replaceable. React has 21,000 commits over a 13 year lifespan. Photocraft has 1,700 commits in just over a week. Are Opus 5.5 and GPT 6 perfect? No. But, big companies aren't going to care about phone numbers to call when they can submit a ticket for an issue at 2:05 PM on a Friday and have a patch with a fix by 2:50. Claude can help solve the problem and create the long-term solution faster than the call center agent can even pull up your account information. No one is calling or emailing any more other than companies that will be moving too slow to compete in the market and will die to survival of the fittest. I don't think you understand where this is going and it seems like you are not a software engineer, or if you are, your ego blinds you. Closed source software is about to be impossible to sell unless you have a novel concept that you can quickly capitalize on or if IP law rapidly advances for the new landscape.

Legitimate_Risk_1079

LW | Lamb Weston Holdings - Current Price: $47.87 - Current Market Cap: $6.60B - Bull Target (12–18m): $65–$75 - Bear Target: $32–$37 - Upside: +36% to +57% - Downside: -23% to -33% - Reward-to-Risk: ~1.6:1 - Success Probability: 60% (estimated) - Expected ROI: +12% (estimated) - Forward P/E: 14.46 - Debt-to-Equity: 2.16 🔴 - Dividend Yield: 3.18% - 1-Year Return: -25.9% 🔴 - 5-Year Price Return: Approximately -15% 🔴 - Profitability: Profitable 🟢 - Revenue Growth: +2.6% 🟡 - Free Cash Flow: Positive 🟢 - Price Trend: Long-term downtrend 🔴 - Bull-Case Market Cap: $9.0B–$10.3B - Comparable Companies: Conagra, McCain Foods - Risk: High - Conviction: 5/10 - Grade: B- Lamb Weston produces frozen potato products for restaurants and retailers. I see turnaround potential following improved guidance, but elevated debt, weak shareholder returns, and modest growth limit my conviction. --- GEV | GE Vernova - Current Price: $1,004.73 - Current Market Cap: $267.6B - Bull Target (12–18m): $1,250–$1,400 - Bear Target: $750–$850 - Upside: +24% to +39% - Downside: -15% to -25% - Reward-to-Risk: ~1.6:1 - Success Probability: 70% (estimated) - Expected ROI: +17% (estimated) - Forward P/E: 47.81 - Debt-to-Equity: 0.28 🟢 - Dividend Yield: 0.20% - 1-Year Return: Approximately +66% 🟢 - 5-Year Return: N/A (2024 spin-off) - Profitability: Profitable 🟢 - Revenue Growth: +13% YoY 🟢 - Free Cash Flow: Strongly Positive 🟢 - Price Trend: Strong long-term appreciation 🟢 - Bull-Case Market Cap: $333B–$373B - Comparable Companies: Siemens Energy, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries - Risk: Moderate-High - Conviction: 8/10 - Grade: B+ GE Vernova manufactures power generation equipment, gas turbines, and electrical grid infrastructure. I like its exposure to accelerating electricity demand, strong cash generation, and manageable debt, but its premium valuation prevents an A grade at today's entry price. --- BSP | Bending Spoons - Current Price: $38.01 - Current Market Cap: $22.84B - Bull Target (12–18m): $48–$55 - Bear Target: $25–$29 - Upside: +26% to +45% - Downside: -24% to -34% - Reward-to-Risk: ~1.3:1 - Success Probability: 55% (estimated) - Expected ROI: +5% (estimated) - Forward P/E: 23.11 - Debt-to-Equity: 3.94 🔴 - Dividend Yield: 0% - 1-Year Return: N/A (July 2026 IPO) - 5-Year Return: N/A - Profitability: Profitable 🟢 - Revenue Growth: +427.5% YoY, acquisition-driven 🟡 - Free Cash Flow: +$453M 🟢 - Share Dilution: +13.6% YoY 🔴 - Price Trend: Volatile since IPO 🟡 - Bull-Case Market Cap: $28.8B–$33.1B - Comparable Companies: AppLovin, Adobe, Constellation Software - Risk: Very High - Conviction: 5/10 - Grade: B- Bending Spoons acquires and operates digital businesses, including established software and internet platforms. I like its profitability and cash generation, but substantial debt, acquisition dependence, and limited public trading history make the reward-to-risk unattractive at this valuation. --- ENSIF | EnSilica - Current Price: $1.25 - Current Market Cap: Approximately $165M - Bull Target (12–18m): $1.80–$2.20 - Bear Target: $0.65–$0.80 - Upside: +44% to +76% - Downside: -36% to -48% - Reward-to-Risk: ~1.5:1 - Success Probability: 45% (estimated) - Expected ROI: +5% (estimated) - Forward P/E: Approximately 19.9 - Debt-to-Equity: 21.82 🔴 - Dividend Yield: 0% - 1-Year Return: Positive, approximately +69% on London-listed shares 🟢 - 5-Year Return: N/A (2022 listing) - Profitability: Weak/near breakeven 🟡 - Annual Revenue: Approximately £27.8M - Free Cash Flow: Not reliably established - Price Trend: Strong recent recovery, highly volatile 🟡 - Bull-Case Market Cap: Approximately $238M–$290M - Comparable Companies: Sondrel, Alphawave IP - Risk: Extreme - Conviction: 3/10 - Grade: C EnSilica develops custom semiconductor chips for industrial, automotive, and communications applications. I see potential in its specialized chip-design capabilities, but extreme reported leverage, limited scale, and thin OTC liquidity make this too speculative for my preferred investment strategy.

staythewaters

They'll steal IP, absolutely. That's different than asking it directly to create something in the style of that IP.

Sufficient_Habit5091

They love stealing IP and it has 100% zero to do with that. It's a political cartoon. If I say "make an arbitrary man say X Y Z" in the style of X Men, it will happily do it. But if I make it about a real politician they won't.

staythewaters

The major AI chats have never been comfortable playing with IP, or even get near it.

origami_bluebird

yeah the question should be: Starlink D2D (which can only send delayed texts and drains your phone battery causing Tmobile to abandon the partnership) Can it compete with: The big 3 MNOs (verizon, att, tmo) along with 40+ Global MNOs who already have agreed to revenue split with AST whose proven can deliver 5G speeds, unlike Starlink with their inferior tech (don't confuse it with normal Starlink to router, cell phone is different) knowing that Elon is trying to put them out of business. Its not even close if you understand the business plan and tech differences and why AST is the best investment possible based on their spectrum assets and IP being worth more than current market cap of $19B

shawnington

https://preview.redd.it/wwwi4tjxdwuh1.png?width=1600&format=png&auto=webp&s=75ef5d09e27a9e9a588dd600be1b35fbba4c7477 Yes. Here is the entire function to do Hue vs Saturation curve adjustments on an image. These took 5 minutes to write for each image function. The only change to this or any other function to make it a brush, is to pass in coordinates to bound the area that is being transformed. thread\_position\_in\_threadgroup is used in functions that do this. Apple silicon GPU's are arranged as a NxN grid of thread groups that each core is responsible for. My case is 32x32, then thread\_group width is image\_width / 32. The gid, tell you the offset of the thread\_group you are in and the tid tells you the where in the thread\_group you are, which makes brush operations very efficient. If you have a 3200x3200 image, and you have a 1px brush, instead of checking each pixel to see if its the right one, you check 32 grids, to see if the grid is the right offset, then you search in thread\_group that grid represents, if it bounds your coordinates. Congrats, none of the image operations are more complicated than this. You can also no write your own clone without vibe coding. And layers are even easier... since apple has an entire swift library for handling texture blending and opacity natively. So you literally just say, this texture goes over this texture, and here is the alpha, and this is the kind of blending I want. Like I said, I did it in Swift, just for Apple Silicon. I didn't need to support 1500 vendors, or hardware versions, or be backward compatible with real old hardware, which is most of the complexity of even the open source editors. People over estimate the complexity of Adobes moat, and their software. It consists entirely of IP that covers the UI layouts, and peoples reluctance to re-learn how to do something they already know how to do in another program.

deneuvig

By safe I mean that using an open weight model on a hosted platform gives much less risk of my proprietary data and IP to be leaked into training data and or the Internet by frontier Labs trying to train on huge amounts of data. I'd much rather work with the companies whose incentive is only to charge me compute, and leveraging models who have already been trained, inference only. The cost basis may not be that different but the incentives of each actor are more aligned in my favor IMHO.  For instance in my own company if we ever were to have a leak of data from what we're giving Claude as far as our own clients data that would be a 9/11 for us, and I work for a very large financial firm. I'm pretty sure people have that on the back of the mind on a daily basis at the top 

The_Macro_Investor

Does that include IP ban?

deneuvig

Except they've been leaders in that field for 1 year, and have no moat. Open weight models are both cheaper and safer for large companies to use down the line just to avoid leaking their IP to shady frontier labs. OAI and Anthrophic are low key cooked imho, the level of growth they need to see to be profitable is just not an existing market, and the cost of debt is increasing, large companies are already limiting vendor lock and vendor spend, preparing themselves for the next wave of usable models and harnesses.  Frontier models have no moats, ultimately

ImNotHere2023

What "high quality data" do they have that others don't - particularly those training in countries with a much looser view toward IP?

Appropriate-Alarm-70

Building a surplus country or highly profitable company requires cheap labor. It is the case with China or USA or India. It is always comparable one against another. Which is cheaper? Who makes money by getting it cheaper? Why America is losing jobs from the last few decades? Globalization! If other countries can work for cheap or make products cheap, why would American rich (Tech) would want to spend more to manufacture in America or produce in America unless it commands a premium? They hold IP but can produce anywhere in the world (cheapest). It was the case for services or software until frontier AI made great progress. From now on, those jobs will disappear or offshored unless strictly required by law to keep in USA. In the end, American companies will suck money out of all countries and they will control Space, Tech n AI. China might compete, and may have acceptance in few countries but big money is mostly made in western countries which are not going to allow Chineese tech.

Delicious_Put_5857

they'll prob get their IP bought by google or somethin in 3 years for $4/sh

InternetRando12345

Easy fix for this: US Patent office refuses to enforce patent infringement if you outsource in this manner. Sure, go ahead and grant access to strangers in foreign countries that are legally allowed to steal all IP

Dependent_Echo4073

yeah if AI keeps growing you’re likely to see memory prices stay high until the next fab cycle kicks in, so Samsung will keep leaping. that Mistral partnership is a smart move, but the risk is that if it gets too deep into their IP the startup could feel the squeeze. still, betting on the chip side looks solid right now.

Either-Physics-4369

There’s no such thing as insta perma. The IP ban is around 2 weeks. Don’t ask me how I know.

Bwint

The amazing part is that they've already designed a vehicle that's fully capable of operating on the surface of Mars (the Cybertruck, per Elon.) With so much engineering already done, the value of the IP is immense! Little additional R&D needed; the future is incredibly bright! /j

DickRiculous

Not true of enterprise customers. Enterprise customers are by default opted out of having their chats used for training. That doesn’t mean glitches can’t lead to IP leakage, but as far as you and Op are concerned it’s clear to anyone who uses enterprise OpenAI you don’t actually know what you’re talking about.

Viktri1

It’s got to be IP theft. Creating a commercial could easily be distilled into a model. And then the model would be able to produce the firm’s style of commercial (as in the way they built out commercials) quite easily and directly compete.

The_Smoking_Pilot

I don’t think selling tokens is the long term business model. IP.

amanj41

I don’t know the details TBH. My company has high value IP and management seems overall content with Anthropic’s ZDR.

vladamir_the_impaler

You have to ask it or a separate agent to analyze the code and look for lurking bugs, unintended behavior etc, and this goes on like 5-6 times before it comes up with something decently solid. That being said, humans also go through that process when writing code. Lastly, I hate AI but it's here so what are we really going to do, not use it? Lastly again, I hope OpenAI goes bust and their IP sold in bankruptcy court or something.

Western_Building_880

use AI they say then they steal ur IP they beat u to market and say. "nah it is not possible" people are fools if they think their prompts ideas won't be scanned by agents. Only way to use ai through private module keep ur data private.

SanDisk_Made_Me_Rich

The problem is OpenAI is just stealing IP and repackaging it as their own. No enterprise or serious research entity will risk feeding sensitive data into OpenAI or Anthropic only to watch it get scraped and monetized against them. Their enterprise market is dead on arrival. Consumer subscriptions for recipe ideas and casual trivia won't cover the burn rate and that's not where the real money is at.

LukkyStrike1

Gemini keeps telling me: "cannot provide answer due to the sources being not allowed".... At this point i am convinced that it is soft hacking for resources. Specifically i was doing a hail mary in getting some old Comcast IP phones to work over a VoIP only modem i had from them. It was very close to giving me an answer to get inside the modem/router in a way that was not supposed to happen. How it found the info to do so, and then self sensor the source....was odd. Happened 2 times.

Far_Preference_2065

They sold the LS&H division to guarantee that they would survive. That was their worst business, with the lowest margins. The two remaining businesses are #1 / #2 in oligopolies markets, although they've been experiencing zero growth because academias are strapped for cash worldwide, and the IP business is in a cyclical downturn. The stock has been trading down on low volume, simply because there are no buyers. Value investors look at the debt figure and stay away, growth investors see negative growth and move on. At this point it's trading at around 3 times earnings, although the debt is still high. As they've just received the cash from the sale of LS&H, and they get paid in advance in Q1 for most of their products, they can rapidly deleverage from a >4x net debt / EBITDA ratio to \~3.5x. The target is to get to a 2.5x ratio by 2029, which is achievable. In 2029 they could decide to allocate half of the cash flow to buybacks and half to debt repayments. At the current prices this would still shrink the share count by over 10% / year, while still paying down expensive debt. As the business rapidly derisks itself, if it starts showing a return to low / mid single digit growth the market will re-rate the stock. I think this is a $7 stock by 2031 as long as they don't start again acquiring SaaS businesses at stupidly high valuations. As for insiders, it's true that Snyder selling isn't a great look, but you have to look into the context that he got these shares from the ProQuest acquisition as part of a cash / stock deal and it's already independently wealthy because of that. The shares he sold are basically pocket change for him. Kenneth Cornick is also on the board and a recent buyer, and his $2M dollar purchase represents higher conviction than the sale of $4M from Snyder, that is already a billionaire.

Wise138

Adobe has the licensing for IP...

Prize_Compote_207

Lmao bro pretending patents and IP matter when the Trump family has a tiny lil raging boner for all things AI is laughable. Property doesnt matter anymore. Everything written by collective humanity is now the sole property of 7 guys.

kbcool

It's only a matter of time before the big AI companies are held accountable for the massive IP theft heist going on and the slop built on it is also subsequently pulled or at least brought to a standstill. Traditional users paying huge amounts for Adobe products weren't about to risk using the slop. People who pirate their products for individual use will continue and the slop may or may not be used but who cares. So what's the impact?

mattmentecky

Lol, You are viewing the word from your window convinced that duplicating UI and simple features is actually a significant development. GIMP and Inkscape have existed for literal decades, completely free, how has that affected Adobe? What about all of the legacy custom color management, the hardware accelerated raster pipeline across all different GPUs, all of the legacy/custom plugins and scripts, render farms that large production companies rely on that would see costs spike if even a 1-3% discreprency adding costs right to the bottom line. Adobe's AI play (Firefly) was trained on its own shit so they offer full IP indemnification. Who does a user sue for IP theft on your vibe coded POS? Integrating Google or OpenAI isn't a bad sign its a good sign, foundational models are headed towards commoditization, Adobe is building value on top of them, you arent getting a single enterprise candidate for anything creative if you can't indemnify the stuff you generate from it.

imustbegthequestion

Mothering MUTHAFUCKING BULLISH TO THE MAX CAPS ALWAYS ON CALLS IN INTERNATIONAL PAPER $IP. PRUDISH PORTUGAL HAS CHARLES CHARLOTTE'S BACK. MUITO OBRIGADO MY CARIOCA FRIENDS. I'LL BE BACK FOR CARNIVAL NEXT YEAR.

beryugyo619

Or an elaborate plot to modernize China ASAP. Everything comes from China or Taiwan, made from Japanese ingredients and American IP. So anything materially significant is closed to East Asia.

TinyPomelo5

They are stealing tons of "old world" data - like their book burning parties where they buy, scan then burn books. Seriously? Can anyone involved with AI explain why books need to burned and why the creators aren't financially rewarded for every time their IP is accessed? What. A. One. Sided. Scam.

Own-Recipe5908

Culture? IP? It's raw compute, which is a moat but the amount of training needed to make gains scales exponentially, so in order to keep the moat you must spend exponentially more on chips and data centers to stay ahead, the problem is none of this shit is making exponentially more money with the training.

Own-Recipe5908

Wait-a-sec don't tell me you don't know what fine-tuning a model is? I'm not saying they're training a model from scratch, they can train an open-source model with their own data in house. And yes, it literally does happen the fuck do you think huggingface is and why nvidia bought it? It isn't the default yet, but it's trending that way. And google's models benchmark within n-1 range of Claude at all times, no one is super ahead of anyone, there were times when the best benching models were kimi, qwens or deepseeks. And, literally from yesterday: [As OpenAI and Anthropic battle over data privacy, more companies turn to open models | Fortune](https://fortune.com/2026/10/05/openai-and-anthropic-battle-over-zero-data-retention-zdr-data-privacy-companies-look-to-open-models-and-sovereign-ai/) >A month later, both [Microsoft](https://fortune.com/company/microsoft/) CEO Satya Nadella and [Palantir](https://fortune.com/company/palantir-technologies/) CEO Alex Karp [warned](https://fortune.com/2026/07/16/microsoft-ceo-satya-nadella-warns-enterprises-that-ai-labs-are-stealing-their-know-how/) companies against relying on AI models from frontier AI companies, saying that they risked having the IP siphoned off. “You essentially pay for intelligence twice, once with money, and again with something even more valuable: the proprietary knowledge you must reveal to make that intelligence useful,” Nadella said. OpenAI and Anthropic have stated they do not train their models on enterprise data. >companies are looking to diversify their AI usage, and reduce their dependency on the leading AI companies. The term du jour for this is “sovereign AI,” referring to a company’s ability to control its own “AI stack”—everything from owning the chips on which AI workloads run, to setting up proprietary cloud infrastructure, to using open-source models that a company can download and run in their own cloud environments.

0pet

The moat is in the culture and IP that allows the models to leapfrog in intelligence and efficiency.

AccordingCup2110

Was thinking through this this morning on my drive into work. Also ignore the Ghidra guy, these verifiable decomps are completely new. While there are some silly pass through versions of these game hybrids, that’s the most boring version and not what I think you’re talking about. I came to the same two extremes as you but realistically neither will be the actual outcome, I think it will be a reckoning for copyright, which is already a dying/barely legislated sector of law. My guess is the initial 3-5 years will see a directional push to create massive walled gardens (your scenario 2), with open source defeaters consistently creating new challenges for this model, and eventually we will arrive at a new framework that allows people to purchase IP to decomp very easily

BatteryAcid420_

If you use AI to create fan art that‘s not a copyright issue in my eyes, like I said adding to existing content is fine. Web crawlers don‘t use the content to learn and literally can‘t abbreviate it. The google AI answers have reduced traffic to websites on the other hand, and GPT makes it worse. Also GPT lies about what data it‘s trained on and what data it has access to, which shows the developers are as aware of copyright and privacy issues as I am. Pirates do share revenue with IP owners if they are making a lot of it and can come to an agreement with the IP owner. For example the GTA series has a huge modding community, it gives the IP owner two choices: sue them all or work together. They chose the latter and it added to their product. A lot of features created by the community are now part of their next release, the biggest in history, so at the very least it gives them inspiration and more exposure. From the copyright laws: 1. Amount and substantiality: How much of the original work was used relative to the whole. 2. Effect on the market: Whether the new use harms the current or potential market for the original work. AI breaks both of those clauses regularly.

Old_Bat1681

All it takes is an AI to teach a lawyer how to find what the AI trained it on and subpoena it and they're cooked. IP copyright infringement puts will make a killing.

BatteryAcid420_

Everyone whose IP is stolen cares, everyone whose children AI misinforms, etc. „as long as they obtain copies of those works legally.“ Copyright needs a clause for „steal my work and distribute it to millions of people“ then. Even if AI gives the source link it scrapes your content without consent. People pirating content to create fan art are doing the opposite of an LLM, adding to the existing content instead of scraping and monetizing it. There‘s plenty of niches where pirates monetize content, too, but if that‘s done at any larger scale then contracts are made and revenues are shared.

soapboxracers

China is nowhere close to a Starship, and there are plenty of reasons companies wouldn’t use China for launches (both regulatory and IP reasons). The rest of your points are valid but SpaceX is incredibly far ahead when it comes to launch capabilities.

grigribs

Alpha Tau does not own Ra-224 itself, nor the general concept of using it for intratumoral alpha therapy. Its patents mainly protect specific implementations of the DaRT technology: controlled release, polymer/source design, applicators, manufacturing methods, etc. A competitor could theoretically develop a different Ra-224 delivery system that avoids those claims, but reproducing DaRT closely would likely create significant IP risk. So the patents are a strong moat, but not an absolute lock on the entire Ra-224 market.

musicandarts

Does their IP stop current brachytherapy centers from infusing Ra 224 beads? It feels like their IP is in their device. We already have brachytherapy equipment that places other kinds of radioactive beads in solid tumors, right?

musicandarts

Am I correct in assuming that the company is opting to get a conditional accelerated approval using response data? I am not sure if survival benefit can be confirmed in a randomized controlled trial. What is the intellectual property in this product? We have brachytherapy equipment made Siemens etc that can be used for this purpose, right? I believe other companies are developing Ra 224 beads too. So, can't anyone put these two together and create the same therapy, without infringing any IP?

_DoubleBubbler_

No they are fabless and to quote todays results announcement… ‘EnSilica is now Europe's largest independent commercial fabless ASIC company and one of only four European members of the TSMC Design Centre Alliance, giving us a direct path from advanced-node design to volume supply and, with our growing re-usable IP portfolio, the credibility to win against far larger competitors.’ As well as TSMC who have foundries around the world, EnSilica also work with other firms such as X-FAB, GlobalFoundries and SK Foundry amongst others I believe.

tworipebananas

Yes but owning eBay IP + GME storefront and logistics infra would be legendary for the business

greenpride32

>Can someone explain to me how the stock market is basically a separate entity from the economy? For simplicity, we'll call the stock market the SP500 index. The index is made up of 500 of the largest and profitable public companies. This 500 is out of the 7000-8000 stocks that trade on NYSE and NASDAQ. It vets out a lot of the lower performing companies and you are left with the top 6-7%. And that's just publicly traded companies - if you were to factor it any company such as smaller ones making $1m to $50m revenue, or even down to moms and pops shops, well this is very elite company. Think of it similar to professional sports - so few people make it here, and then even fewer are the elite all starts, or even higher MVP's and Hall of Famers. Or admissions into the elite universities; your SP500 are the Ivy League, MIT and Stanford group and the top companies are their valedictorians. So the SP500 isn't just the broad economy; it is the best of the best, with a smaller amount of elite companies sitting at the very top. These top companies are now pushing into the $150b to $200b in net profit per year. Not only that, but these companies have been consistently increasing revenue and profit for not years, but decade or decades. To produce that type of performance consistently, these company's products and services possess a lot of qualities such as being durable, having high demand, being essential, having moat/IP/competitive advantage etc. That means they perform well in good times and bad times. Maybe as Mr and Mrs Main Street, you are forced to buy food, gas and electricty at higher prices; or maybe you just want to spend your money on the latest phone. But in similar fashion, successful businesses are also have needs and wants to sustain and grow their own business and much of that would feed back into these top companies. Also statistically, it is the wealthly that spend the most in the economy - they are less likely to be pressed in so called "weak economy".

Much-Buy-5830

hmm.. as long as DRTS dont offer this in China, maybe the MOAT and IP is protected.

_Knuckles

Thoughts on $CDT? Seems like the pennystock has endured a lot of reverse splits throughout the last year. Seems like they are planning a new IP strategy regarding drug repositioning (finding new ways to use drugs that already exist rather than spending enormous amounts of dabloons discovering new ones eg. tapinarof), and if the company sees true success they may potentially license that IP to larger pharmaceutical companies that may benefit the company. CDT also purchased 1290 shares of Sarborg a bit back [and says it has filed IP around using quantum sampling for disease biology and drug discovery, rather than merely using quantum computers to model individual molecules](https://www.stocktitan.net/news/CDT/cdt-highlights-sarborg-s-expanding-quantum-computing-ip-portfolio-901pgigvlbnt.html), also stating that Sarborg raised their capital at $125k per share representing a headline value of roughly $161 million. Considering possibility of future dilution and valuation uncertainty (like any penny stock ofcourse) there is absolutely a chance CDT is massively undervalued. These are just my thoughts and have been keeping an eye on this one despite their troubles