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Reddit Posts

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Briefing: AWS, Margaritaville Among Top Alameda Creditors

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Another blockchain project cancelled - Thoughts from an AWS engineer

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

CHIA Senior Blockchain Development Lead - $950K+ Annual Salary

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What happened to FTX can happen to any other exchanges

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Is there some crypto gang out there working on a peer to peer, non-monopolized web service provider solution?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Revisited: What TPS does Algorand need to be Sustainable?

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

Are decentralized infrastructure providers such as Pocket Network capable of dethroning the centralized providers like Infura?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Maybe Jeff Bezos Should Buy Ethereum: AWS Servers Host A Major Chunk Of The Crypto's Computing Power

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

My prediction on reddit NFTs and Polygon in general

r/BitcoinSee Post

bitcoin core on HDD

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

This is, right now... Is why you are here.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Google taps Coinbase to bring crypto payments to cloud services in return for AWS migration

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Debate about Flux. Another member asked me to post this since he didn’t meat the requirements.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Looking in Flex(Zelcash)

r/BitcoinSee Post

12 Word Recovery Phrase - a security weakness? My (free and simple!) solution(s)

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Chainlink Announces Staking Plans, Aiming to Be AWS of Web3

r/BitcoinSee Post

Shitcoins central point of failure. Hackers exploit BGP hijacking to steal from AWS hosted chains. Jeff Bezos controls all your shitcoins

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Ethereums Merge - PoS vs PoW and the most common misconceptions

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Shiba Inu developers leak AWS credentials on Github

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Meta allows its user NFTs across both Instagram and Facebook. Stripe, allows payouts to its creator community. Ernst n Young, started offering its flagship blockchain products. The NFL started selling NFT collections last year. Polygon (MATIC) aims to be the AWS of Web3

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Shiba Inu Leaked their AWS Cloud Credential [Developer Mistake]

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Shiba Inu cloud credentials leaked in a major security breach as developers leak AWS Access keys on a public code repository

r/BitcoinSee Post

From one of the Patreon posts about AWS and mining

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Why are people dismissing NFTs as a sham without realizing its true potential in the Metaverse and its effects on the global economy in the next decade?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Is code a crime?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

'AWS for blockchain': ArcBlock aims to build, manage and deploy decentralized apps – GeekWire

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Bitcoin subreddit is loosing the narrative war on energy usage so hard that they’ve moved on to denying climate change.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Crypto Exchange WazirX is being probed for money laundering and fraud. Now suddenly Binance is saying they never acquired the exchange eventhough a ton of evidence is saying otherwise.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Working in the field of cryptocurrency

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Indian government raids the director of crypto exchange WazirX, and freezes assets worth over $8.1M amid massive international money laundering and fraud probe.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Isn't ICP a *clear* evolution of blockchain technology, am I missing something?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

ICP seems like a clear revolution of blockchain techology, am I missing something?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

This Bear Market Has Shown That Decentralization Will Never Be Possible

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Amazon Web Services (AWS) Becomes Technology Partner To VeCarbon, Enabling (Inter)National Scale

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Algorand - Deep Dive

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Always confirm the news from both parties for an announced partnership

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Filecoin vs Arweave

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

STAR: Brave’s New System for Privacy-Preserving Data Collection

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

More than 50% of Ethereum is hosted on Amazon's AWS, almost 20% in Ashburn, VA alone

r/BitcoinSee Post

Full node on AWS

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Earn money: dropship (crypto) services through your own website

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Use cases of crypto and blockchain that aren't total bullshit... perhaps

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Bear market is bullish for Cardano

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Internet Computer and the limitation of blockchains

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Myself and 6 other redditors have built an algorithmic crypto trading platform and we'll soon release in Closed Beta

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Secure decentralized upgradability of smart contracts can't be achieved

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

The problem with governance

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Autoinvesting and autowithdrawing with the lowest fees (works in NY): Gemini API

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What are some blockchains that do NOT require AWS or similar enterprise-grade servers to maximize throughput besides bitcoin?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Emergency Security warning: Multiple sites including CoinGecko seem to be compromised. Be careful while making any txns

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What coins or infrastructure that introduced revolutionizing technology am I missing?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

A concern about proof-of-stake

r/BitcoinSee Post

Bitcoin as a digital public good used as a money ought to be on a public blockchain. But I don’t understand why BAYC can’t just be done privately on their own AWS servers. Isn’t Otherside their own private metaverse that YugaLabs controls anyway? It’s not a decentralized good like Bitcoin.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Quant will connect the Metaverse

r/SatoshiStreetBetsSee Post

Euler Tools - the Google of crypto

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Why is the crypto community against NFTs?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Decentralized or Centralized?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

🆕 L1 comparison chart 📈 [April 2022]

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

We Made Crypto Trading Easy!

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

New malware targets serverless AWS Lambda with cryptominers

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

NFTs are eating the world. A step-by-step Solidity tutorial for beginners to launch your first NFT collection

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

Thorchain depends too much on AWS, it's centralization.

r/BitcoinSee Post

Schnorr compatible hot / cloud-based wallet

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

We're still early, we will be for the next 25-50 years

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Amazon Has Launched Its First Metaverse Game, called "AWS Cloud Quest"

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Polygon was just down for 11 hours due to a bug, but Solana is garbage?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Aleph Zero | New Layer 1 game changer? | Breakdown analysis | Long DD

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

Will the space potentially shift away from PoW Chains in exchange for eco-friendly alternatives ?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What is the future of blockchain technology?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What is the future of blockchain technology?

r/BitcoinSee Post

How to Mine Crypto AWS Cloud Platform

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Cool little article about decentralization from AWS (irony)

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Crypto wallet bulletin board for donation addresses. No ads site is 100% donation run

r/BitcoinSee Post

Help with a new deployment

r/BitcoinSee Post

Help with a new deployment

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

The Algorand Blockchain Is Now on the AWS Marketplace: Guardrail

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Guardrail Announces the General Availability of the Algorand Blockchain on the AWS Marketplace

r/BitcoinSee Post

I think this is the best and cheapest way to DCA if you're from the UK and use GBP.

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

ICP costs 0.4% of an equivalent AWS web app.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

ICP costs 0.4% of an equivalent AWS web app.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Alchemy will become 'the AWS of crypto' says VC investing in Web 3.0 with $725M fund

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

"I believe Alchemy will become the AWS of crypto." A $725 million VC revealed in an interview he just made major investments in crypto infrastructure. (He was also the CTO of GitHub when it was acquired for $8 billion.)

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

"I believe Alchemy will become the AWS of crypto." A $725 million VC revealed in an interview he just made major investments in crypto infrastructure. (He was also the CTO of GitHub when it was acquired for $8 billion.)

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Good news!!! : Amazon enters the metaverse again, with Cyberpop Labs!

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

WaveDancer Blockchain approved for use on Amazon Web Services (AWS) Marketplace for GovCloud

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

NFTs fall short of everything they are praised for: a black pill perspective

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

🆕 L1 comparison chart 📈

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

The GameFi token that will be the Minecraft killer, amazon AWS killer

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

I'm open sourcing a bot written in golang to buy and sell crypto based on signals from the web.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Polygon Joins Arms Race To Become ‘The AWS Of Web 3’ With $450 Million In Fresh Funding

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

The only project that can stop Wormhole style hacks forever has just released the only TRUSTLESS alternative to wrapping your tokens in the industry, and yet, nobody on here is talking about it.

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

"Amazon Managed Blockchain, a service of AWS, added support for Ethereum. Now it’ll be easier for devs to build on its blockchain."

r/CryptoMarketsSee Post

Why Is Web 3.0 Important?

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Nosana - decentralized cloud computing protocol powered by Solana. Know the facts. Get In early.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Smart Contracts Market is Expected to Hold the Largest Share by 2026 – IBM, AWS, Oracle, Infosys, Solana, etc

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Let's start a researchDAO

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Let's start a ResearchDAO!

r/CryptoMoonShotsSee Post

Cyberclassic.io | Earn Upto 1500%_APY | Presale on 29th Jan 15:00 UTC | Free NFTs for Presale Participants!

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Ethereum gas is the most raw display of power dynamics in business and I think we've had enough

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Blockchain In Insurance Market Next Big Thing: Major Giants- | Applied Blockchain,Auxesis,AWS,Bitfury

Mentions

It was a long time coming but I'm looking forward to seeing what the devs do with this. People really should start looking at the projects being built on ICP. Another note for people unfamiliar with ICP is that it's the only self hosted layer one blockchain. It's nodes are fully independent from centralized services such as AWS. That's not to say it is fully decentralized yet but it's moving in that direction. Alright that's my shill post now continue upvoting the internet explorer into recycle bin gif *as is tradition*.

Mentions:#ICP#AWS

ICP is it's own AWS and rapidly decentralizing but doesn't need to fully decentralize like ETH. It's aiming to take market share of AWS and has to maintain powerful nodes to do it. Agree it needs more decentralization when it comes to node onboarding, and soon there will be community controlled boundary nodes. Not as centralized as you think.

Mentions:#ICP#AWS#ETH

I would be interested to see the data that supports your claim that “bitcoin nodes almost all use AWS”

Mentions:#AWS

>Governments can shut down the internet the entire economy depends on the internet including the internet. >Bitcoin nodes almost all use AWS. It can basically shutdown Bitcoin which is super centralized. the can easily switch provider, not a problem. >Any actor with a sizeable % of bitcoin can tank the market price whenever it want as the market gets bigger and bigger this is becoming less likely. Also true for many other assets. >Of course Bitcoin can be confiscated. much harder with bitcoin. It's the best choice and that is what matters. >If someone steals your bitcoin or seed phrase you are now broke and homeless. If someone steals your credit card, you just cancel it. Bitcoin isn't a good form of money for that reason. you can spread your risk with multi-sig and other arrangements. Cash isn't bad money just because it can be stolen. >Fiat currencies aren't supposed to store value. People invest in stock and real estate. Fiat is solely for transacting. they used store value until recently. BTC is a great alternative to stocks and real estate. Just needs to capture small % and it would be huge, > can use venmo, Apple pay, or a credit card to purchase things instantaneously. Bitcoin isn't actually solving anything here. about 4 billion dont have proper banking. ever done international wire transfers with different currencies? if you don't see the solution you don't understand the problem. >When was the last time you paid for something using Apple pay and thought to yourself this doesn't work? You didn't because it does. Bitcoin isn't supposed to replace Apple pay.

Mentions:#AWS#BTC

1. Governments can shut down the internet 2. Bitcoin nodes almost all use AWS. It can basically shutdown Bitcoin which is super centralized. 3. Any actor with a sizeable % of bitcoin can tank the market price whenever it wants. So you can never be safe from a private actor or Government actor purposefully devaluing the currency. Both Saylor and the US govt own huge amounts of Bitcoin. 4. Of course Bitcoin can be confiscated. That's like arguing that Gold buried in the backyard can't be confiscated. If the government knows you have it, they can jail you until you give it up. Thugs can torture you until you give it up. 5. If someone steals your bitcoin or seed phrase you are now broke and homeless. If someone steals your credit card, you just cancel it. Bitcoin isn't a good form of money for that reason. 6. Fiat currencies aren't supposed to store value. People invest in stock and real estate. Fiat is solely for transacting. 7. I can use venmo, Apple pay, or a credit card to purchase things instantaneously. Bitcoin isn't actually solving anything here. 8. When was the last time you paid for something using Apple pay and thought to yourself this doesn't work? You didn't because it does.

Mentions:#AWS

smart contracts require decentralization by basic definition of them, which ethereum doesn't have. when unwanted central party unspecified in a "contract" can edit state/outcome, like to confiscate from a user as they have done, it's just a centralized script just like ones running on AWS. it's called privity, fundamental requirement of a smart contract. even nick szabo who defined what it means always spoke out against malicious predatory scammers like Vitalik and easily identifies eth as a fully centralized cult. 1 party in control is centralized control. eth has 0 smart contracts, they just misuse that terminology just like every terminology that comes out of their mouths. ethtards should learn basic terminology. 0 of this has to do with "feelings' or "opionions", it's just a mathematical and objective facts with 0 room for debate as even basic minimum requirements aren't met it's used by scammers and illiterate to trick other scammers and illiterate with pretend-properties it doesn't have, it exists only for that purpose, period.

Mentions:#AWS

It is, but that’s why I made this template on how we can leverage the extremely large number of individual stakers, to limit validator power and increase stakers power at the code level. Thereby decentralizing the network at the code level. It’s theoretical but no cryptos outside of BTC are legitimately decentralized, unfortunately if AWS or any cloud service provider got a government mandate to cleanse itself if crypto related projects, most crypto projects wouldn’t recover and some would but it would be unbelievable in the amount of damage done. Cosmos isn’t centralized in that way at least, so we have to find alternatives to decentralization. And I believe stakers/voters rights and reasonable power distribution from validators, to stakers could effectively decentralize the network.

Mentions:#BTC#AWS

browsers already can directly access ipfs files. already in nft space most of the images hosted ipfs storage. ex pinata.cloud. store and serve is currently possible. maybe yeah in future and don't know currently any projects on ipfs. file ase - siacoin project kind of an alternative like AWS.

Mentions:#AWS

Most Ethereum nodes are hosted on AWS soooooo....

Mentions:#AWS

Does the average crypto user outside of this sub (IE the majority of us) care about decentralization? Lol no, not really, they want fast and cheap. Not to mention in terms of retail investment larger companies are probably going to want something that's more centralized than decentralized, but 🤷🏻‍♂️ It's fast, it's cheap and despite the claims on here it averages comparable uptime with things like Bitcoin (also at 99%+) and AWS. Is it the holy grail of blockchain? No. Was it ever worth its previous ATH? Probably not. Does it have some issues still? Sure. Will it still be here in a year or 2? Who knows. Is the small echo chamber FUD campaign against it in this sub laughable? Ya, kinda.

Mentions:#AWS#FUD

Bitcoin can be used to purchase goods instantly, across the world, without needing a bank account, for a fraction of the cost of credit cards, and is accepted in more places than ever. What part of that hasn't delivered? Some cryptos are even doing that faster, for a lower cost. Cryptos is also providing many solutions, form letting people be their own banks, banking the unbanked, offering many fintech and defi solutions, derrivates, etc... But most importantly crypto tech and blockchain is now used to provide many tech solutions across all industries, and is currently used to help improve businesses across the world. Companies like IBM, Microsoft, AWS, Alphabet, Apple, Tencent, Tesla, Nestle, Alibaba, Johnson & Johnson, Walmart, P&G, AIG, Aegon, Pepsico, Nvidia, Intel, Walt Diseny, Unilever, Samsung, Verizon, Honeywell, Comcast, JP Morgan, Oracle, Cisco, Exxon, Shell, UnitedHealth, UPS, Home Depot, Pfizer, Shopify, Metlife, Siemens, Qualcomm, etc... It's hard to take anyone serious who claims it hasn't done anything in over a decade. This once again proves how little the average person knows about what crypto actually does.

Mentions:#AWS#UPS

Literally most apps are made to be built for convenience. Technically, you can just pirate songs or movies but people are now more willing to spend a bit for convenience. Multi-million dollar businesses are built out of abstracting incredibly tedious work like AWS. Anyway, having fast, secured wallets **shouldn’t** feel like you have to scale Mt. Everest to get there. Complexity != security.

Mentions:#AWS

They make a shitty enterprise data analytics platform, business intelligence is the correct term, that has been passed by its competitors like Microsoft, Salesforce, and open source alternatives. They also only sell MicroStrategy and it’s suite of products — not like the mega enterprise tech behemoths like Microsoft, Salesforce, Oracle, and even AWS (Amazon). They’re entrenched in several high profile older 90s/2000s enterprises like eBay when MicroStrategy was hot and getting new deals and contracts. These 90s/2000s companies have such a hard time migrating off of it they aren’t willing to incur the switching costs to migrate. I would think of MicroStrategy as a much much shittier version of Oracle.

Mentions:#AWS

Eth is the foundational shitcoin and it is as good as failed. It only has volume because of the trash that built on top of it as you said. Now 75% of eth’s centralized validators are *already* running OFAC compliant blocks. It got captured so quickly by regulators and it is centralized beyond repair using PoS validation (free money ponzi scam that will implode) and running its huge untenable chain on infura / AWS. It is an absolute dumpster fire and I cannot believe anyone would ever buy or hold such a thing. Vitalik is currently dumping a bunch of his pre-mined tokens while everyone’s eth is locked up in his “staking” scam. Lmao. I have a hard time feeling sorry for people who are in eth. Same information that’s available to me is available to them.

Mentions:#AWS

So it's just a great project that happens to be a scam? Get lost. And you're wrong - you have no proof of it. There's plenty of proof the price was manipulated by FTX which you seem not to know about. Projects *cannot* be built on Solana - they can't be build *on* any chain. They can on the internet computer. No other chain is building projects like you can with the internet computer. Nothing is even close. A shitty project? Name a better place to build real world, all on chain, solutions. Just one. The internet computer project is decentralizing at a rapid pace - all chains will be hosting decentralized front ends that *cannot be removed* by companies like AWS. Swaps will live on the IC. Everything else is centralized on AWS like platforms. Jeff Bezos controls your keys - that is centralization. You're still following line go down meme type arguments and mountains of FUD that was dumped on this project. Actually DYOR on this one before misleading people reading this sub.

AWS does this, document DB is mongo DB and OpenSearch is ElasticSearch. They take an open source project, copy it, then offer to manage it for the end user. The result is they completely undercut the original developers out of making money on their own product.

Mentions:#AWS

It's the most advanced project in the space. It has the largest R&D team. It's transforming the internet to a blockchain based web3 to get away from AWS type clouds. No one here knows what it does. Research it and you'll see everything else is full of DeFi scam bullshit and NFTs. Nothing is close to what ICP can do. Period.

Mentions:#AWS#ICP

AWS has a very good privacy policy far better than most. https://aws.amazon.com/artifact/

Mentions:#AWS

lol, AWS for privacy.

Mentions:#AWS

Why would you pay for a VPN ? create your own cloud VPN server I mean heck AWS Is free for a year. Setting up a disposable VPN is super easy and you don't have to worry about the VPN company being shady. Here: https://github.com/trailofbits/algo

Mentions:#AWS

BTC is going to die. That's just my opinion. It's stagnant and power hungry. All other coins merely tried to jump ahead of ETH, and for a while they have, but ultimately, ETH will obsolete them all, and BTC will be remembered as a power hungry first. The number of miners will continue to concentrate for BTC, they'll continue to migrate to cooler areas of the world and try to find more energy efficient ways to operate the network, but it will turn into a centralized system, high cost to maintain, and ETH will spread more and more. Features will continue to improve, transactions speed will increase, transaction cost will go down, people will build more and more services upon it just to escape centralized platforms like AWS and centralized payment systems and stores, which take a HUGE percentage of their revenue. ETH is a clear winner in my eyes for all of these reasons and more.

Mentions:#BTC#ETH#AWS

> Anybody there run a node? Nope. All their shitcoins run on AWS. > Here it is about self-sovereignty and not having to trust anyone. I would be extremely interested to know what fraction of people here run a node. What would you guess?

Mentions:#AWS

No doubt. Just think about the values that are important here vs there. They just care about trading and get rich quick schemes. Anybody there run a node? Nope. All their shitcoins run on AWS. Here it is about self-sovereignty and not having to trust anyone.

Mentions:#AWS

Or alphabet, or whatever company trying to put their hands on everything. Amazon is only profitable because of AWS though so CZ should think about it before spending on things that aren’t profitable

Mentions:#AWS

>The data can be stored in an AWS, Matic, or in pieces of paper written with crayons.... can be using Blockchain perfectly without noticing it right now I did already admit as much. But my interest was in the unique benefits or enhancements it offers. >Buy a ticket over Matic (cannot be reselled, cannot be falsified, can be checked that it exists, it can survive to the company, doesn't degrade over time). Which of those don't hold true for conventional databases though? The only one I can think of that might not hold true is "doesn't degrade over time" - but after a ticket is checked, you don't need to hold onto it any more. In fact, I would encourage websites that issue tickets to purge their databases for customer security. >There's some benefits on it Mr butcoiner, and you(as anything deployed in akash, or JPGs over filecoin or arweave for a fraction of the price of a S3 bucket for example) I really didn't want to go into cryptocurrency and trading systems... Filecoin is one such system. The actual technology is IPFS, Filecoin is just the layer of monetization put atop it by the developers.

Mentions:#AWS

Every implementation is entirely opaque or entirely open if the company providing the service want. All of them. The data can be stored in an AWS, Matic, or in pieces of paper written with crayons. Buy a ticket over Matic (cannot be reselled, cannot be falsified, can be checked that it exists, it can survive to the company, doesn't degrade over time). There's some benefits on it Mr butcoiner

Mentions:#AWS

Sell it. Centralized trash. If you can halt and restart a Blockchain you don't need a Blockchain you need AWS.

Mentions:#AWS

#Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Reusing from [my previous entry here](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoke5/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_pos_conarguments/hd7dme2/). > > *Disclosure: (assuming Ethereum successfully transitions to PoS) ~50-60% of my current portfolio is in PoS coins, not including tokens that run on those chains* > > #PoS Con Argument > > Just a note that there are [lots of variations](https://www.finyear.com/photo/art/default/31320255-29572660.jpg?v=1551793721) on the Proof of Stake consensus model - e.g., [Proof of Staked Authority](https://github.com/binance-chain/whitepaper/blob/master/WHITEPAPER.md#consensus-and-validator-quorum) (BSC), [Pure Proof of Stake](https://www.algorand.com/technology/pure-proof-of-stake) (ALGO), Bonded Proof of Stake (ATOM), Delegated Proof of Stake (EOS), Liquid Proof of Stake (XTZ), Nominated Proof of Stake (DOT) etc. Different implementations have different tradeoffs, but I'll try to keep the main arguments general. > > ##Wealth and control > > - As other con arguments mention, PoS consensus favors big players and can [lead to centralization of wealth and control](https://medium.com/stakin/centralization-of-stake-in-pos-f7ccb8f8254). > > - In the absence of staking pools or delegators, the necessary capital required to self-stake (+ hardware costs) can exclude smaller participants: > > - [If you got in early, then you have a larger stake - and your position is basically guaranteed since you had a head start in earning rewards](https://www.coinbureau.com/blockchain/proof-of-activity-explained-hybrid-consensus-algorithm/#Introducing_Proof_of_Stake). > > - If you have a bigger stake you're probably in a position to hoard it, accruing compound interest and solidifying your position as a whale. > > * Airdrops are great, but if they're based off a snapshot of staked holdings ('stakedrop') then the rich get richer (some projects have tried to make [fairer distributions](https://medium.com/osmosis/osmo-token-distribution-ae27ea2bb4db), but [whales gonna do whale things](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/q8y550/centralization_issue_in_juno/)). > > - The bonding/unbonding periods of some protocols disincentivize participation from less wealthy users who may need to keep their assets liquid in the face of market volatility (i.e. opportunity cost). E.g., ATOM has a 21 day unbonding period. > > - Even if you delegate your stake to validators, there is a centralization of power/wealth: > > - The lack of incentive for smaller participants to be active in the voting process undermines the system's democratic intentions: > > > "[This leaves the door open for the whales to have a more direct influence over the network, especially if they are also able to take control of masses of smaller votes via proxy.](https://www.coinbureau.com/education/delegated-proof-stake-dpos/#Disadvantages_of_DPoS)" > > - Entrusting validation to a small group of participants introduces trust into the equation - delegates could form cartels making the blockchain less decentralized and less resilient to attacks. > > - Cartels aren't just a theoretical issue - historical examples include **EOS**, which has a [vote buying system](https://research.binance.com/en/analysis/eos-governance) leading to [accusations of cartels bribing an exchange](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/10/04/vote-buying-scandal-stokes-fears-of-eos-governance-failure/) and **LISK** which had a [cartel](https://np.reddit.com/r/Lisk/comments/8dwwqa/delegates_or_delegateyou_decide/) likened to [the mafia](https://medium.com/coinmonks/lisk-the-mafia-blockchain-47248915ae2f). > > - Various examples of centralization on more notable chains include: > > - **ADA**: [Binance has 12% of the total stake](https://adapools.org/groups). As /u\/Eagle-Pool explained in [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/cardano/comments/muf1ap/why_staking_your_ada_with_binance_is_a_bad_idea/): > > >"Cardano created [Enterprise Wallets](https://docs.cardano.org/en/latest/learn/types-addresses.html) that were meant to be used by exchanges that shouldn't carry stake rights. Clearly, Binance isn't using those since they've created so many pools. If they participate in Catalyst voting, they have enough Ada to make or break any project." > > - **ATOM**: [CEXs \(Binance, Coinbase and Kraken\) hold ~17% of the staking power](https://www.mintscan.io/cosmos/validators). > > - **BNB**: [21 validators and if you want to be one you'll need a minimum 10,000 BNB](https://docs.binance.org/smart-chain/validator/Parameters.html). Meanwhile, [Binance owns ~80% of BNB](https://www.coincarp.com/currencies/binance-coin/richlist/). > > - **ETH**: running your own [validator requires 32 ETH](https://github.com/ethereum/annotated-spec/blob/master/phase0/beacon-chain.md#gwei-values). [~20% of validators belong to whales and centralized exchanges.](https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution) > > - **DOT**: would recommend the [DOT Con Argument thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/og2peh/rcryptocurrency_cointest_top_10_category_polkadot/) for specifics on the confusing election and nomination aspects of the governance system. [The minimum required stake needs to be higher than the least staked validator](https://wiki.polkadot.network/docs/faq#what-is-the-minimum-stake-necessary-to-be-elected-as-an-active-validator), currently [1.6M DOT](https://ipfs.io/ipns/polkadot.dotapps.io/#/staking/targets). > > - Lastly, there's also centralization to consider given validators' reliance on infrastructure providers like AWS, [Bison Trails](https://bisontrails.co/protocols/) or [Infura for ETH](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) and software clients ([like Geth for ETH](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c)). > > > > ###Subjectivity > > - This may be a bit more technical, so bear with me. > > - There is trust involved not just when delegating to a validator, but also at a more fundamental level - how PoS nodes connecting to the network 'learn' what the 'truth' is, i.e. how to sync and validate the correct chain: > > - PoW networks like Bitcoin's are **objective**: [when a new node comes online it can determine the 'truth' based off the protocol and the history of previous blocks](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). > > - On the other end of the spectrum is a network like Ripple, which is **subjective**: [all the nodes are sort of doing their own thing to determine what the truth is. The network thus requires nodes to have reputation, otherwise anyone could spin up a bunch of nodes to take over](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/) (i.e., [Sybil Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack)). > > - PoS falls in the middle, it's '**[weakly subjective](https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/weak-subjectivity)**': [when a new node comes online it has to find someone to tell it what the truth is so it can sync up. Reliance on a trusted third party thus adds a small but non-zero amount of risk not found in the PoW security model](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/r6voht/general_concepts_round_pos_conarguments_december/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Proof_of_Stake) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/z29in1/daily_general_discussion_november_23_2022_gmt0/).

I just replied to someone else here's a copy paste : The main selling point for me is that defi apps can be completely hosted on a block chain and not just have a smart contract code on the blockchain while the actual app that users interact with are still on centralised servers. Another example of this is with nfts, the cost of hosting a small picture on ethereum and most other blockchains run up to hundreds of dollars, meanwhile with Internet computer it costs less than a dollar. So you can actually store images in your smart contract and intelligently distribute them in ways impossible to do with say ipfs. Apart from this, you can build typical web2 platforms on it and these platforms would be alot easier and cheaper to manage that on say on AWS. Since every computation cost is predefined it makes it somewhat predictable to know exactly how much your service would cost. It's also the only blockchain I've seen so far that doesn't need an oracle service like chain link. You can actually request for external information directly from a smart contract, for example you could build a defi platform to interact directly with the binance exchange. Also, Internet computer isn't really positioning itself as a competitor to ethereum or bitcoin, you can actually sign ethereum or bitcoin transactions with it. So it could potentially be suitable as blockchain bridge. So yeah just from the potential utility, I'm pretty bullish on it.

Mentions:#AWS

The main selling point for me is that defi apps can be completely hosted on a block chain and not just have a smart contract code on the blockchain while the actual app that users interact with are still on centralised servers. Another example of this is with nfts, the cost of hosting a small picture on ethereum and most other blockchains run up to hundreds of dollars, meanwhile with Internet computer it costs less than a dollar. So you can actually store images in your smart contract and intelligently distribute them in ways impossible to do with say ipfs. Apart from this, you can build typical web2 platforms on it and these platforms would be alot easier and cheaper to manage that on say on AWS. Since every computation cost is predefined it makes it somewhat predictable to know exactly how much your service would cost. It's also the only blockchain that doesn't need an oracle service like chain link. You can actually request for external information directly from a smart contract, for example you could build a defi platform to interact directly with the binance exchange. Also, Internet computer isn't really positioning itself as a competitor to ethereum or bitcoin, you can actually sign ethereum or bitcoin transactions with it. So it could potentially be suitable as blockchain bridge. So yeah just from the potential utility, I'm pretty bullish on it.

Mentions:#AWS

ETH is literally a captured, government controlled entity now that it’s PoS. PoS means that the largest stakers have the most control of the network. The largest stakers were all insiders and developers who were able to benefit off the pre mine. If the government wants to censor transactions they just call up Vitalik or Lubin and it’s done. Or they can just pull the arms off AWS to pressurise validators. Also now that ETH is no longer PoW, it opens it up to attack from the SEC who may decide it’s now a security and not a decentralised commodity. ETH fails the Howie test. Trader University does some great analysis on all of this https://youtu.be/woDaEGT6psQ

Mentions:#ETH#AWS

ETH is literally a captured, government controlled entity now that it’s PoS. PoS means that the largest stakers have the most control of the network. The largest stakers were all insiders and developers who were able to benefit off the pre mine. If the government wants to censor transactions they just call up Vitalik or Lubin and it’s done. Or they can just pull the arms off AWS to pressurise validators. Also now that ETH is no longer PoW, it opens it up to attack from the SEC who may decide it’s now a security and not a decentralised commodity. ETH fails the Howie test. Trader University does some great analysis on all of this https://youtu.be/woDaEGT6psQ

Mentions:#ETH#AWS

ETH is literally a captured, government controlled entity now that it’s PoS. PoS means that the largest stakers have the most control of the network. The largest stakers were all insiders and developers who were able to benefit off the pre mine. If the government wants to censor transactions they just call up Vitalik or Lubin and it’s done. Or they can just pull the arms off AWS to pressurise validators. Also now that ETH is no longer PoW, it opens it up to attack from the SEC who may decide it’s now a security and not a decentralised commodity. ETH fails the Howie test.

Mentions:#ETH#AWS

Why do they need the blockchain just to verify the validity of the a certificate? You can just use any off the shelf database to do the same thing, and cheaper with more functionality. I also don't know why I would ever publish a *secure* and *protected* document on a **public** blockchain? Like, what problem is this actually solving? Using NFTs for land deeds sounds like complete nonsense. What, if you get hacked you'll also lose the deeds to your house? Get real. If you want to see "real world use case" blockchain, check out the AXS attempt move its ledger to the blockchain. The TLDR is that 6 years and $250m later, they cancelled the entire project with nothing to show for it. https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeldelcastillo/2022/11/16/seminal-blockchain-project--goes-down-the-drain-chairman-apologizes/?sh=7750c24117d3 Or this article by an ex-distinguished engineer from AWS who never managed to find any valid usecases for blockchain to justify Amazon doing anything interesting with them (besides providing tooling for clients to pay to use). https://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/202x/2022/11/19/AWS-Blockchain

Mentions:#AXS#AWS

It's not - these are full web content smart contracts that are twitter, reddit, linkedin type sites that all live fully on the chain away from AWS type hosting. [Seers](https://nmkbs-aaaaa-aaaam-aadfa-cai.ic0.app/) is my favorite so far. Been posting there daily. ICP's real aim is targeting AWS's share and replacing the IT stack. Very cheap to build on.

Mentions:#AWS#ICP

Tesla managed to go from a small startup to the largest US automaker by market cap in a decade. AWS launched in 2006 and was completely dominant within a decade. Point being that a decade is plenty of time. And if Bitcoin is blockchain that can’t change, what can fundamentally be done differently to solve problems?

Mentions:#AWS

30 days! You're patient. What are the specs? I'm always curious for information about nodes built on AWS Yes, you can use RPC (or bitcoin-cli), but you will get an error message on some wallet commands - something like, can't do this until node initialization complete

Mentions:#AWS#RPC

Are you serious? That's gonna be a mile long.... There's far too many companies and too many to even narrow it down. But just the first ones I can think off the top of my head, I have to check if they've updated or made any changes since I last read about them: IBM, Microsoft, AWS, Alphabet, Apple, Tencent, Tesla, Nestle, Alibaba, Johnson & Johnson, Walmart, P&G, AIG, Aegon, Pepsico, Nvidia, Intel, Walt Diseny, Unilever, Samsung, Verizon, Honeywell, Comcast, JP Morgan, Oracle, Cisco, Exxon, Shell, UnitedHealth, UPS, Home Depot, Pfizer, Shopify, Metlife, Siemens, Qualcomm...just to name a few of the major companies already using blockchain. It's used in real estate by Coldwell Banker, Bookfield, Westfield, JLL. It's used in the energy sector by Shell, Tennet, Siemens. It's used for insurance MetLife, and Prudential. It's used to help the functions of governments like in Dubai and Seoul. It's used in travel by Ethiad, Lufthansa, British Airways, and Singapore Airlines. AIG using smart contract on the Ethereum blockchain to reduce costs, and increase transparency. IBM is doing a ton of different things. I'll use the hyperledger fabric, which is very much in line with what I was talking about making information and data more useful, valuable, and trustworthy. What's data if you can't trust it and can't tell what's correct? Maersk and PWC using chains like Vechain for their logisitcs. Without blockchain, you had to trust the data and information of a shipment, going through different ports, different ways to track the shipment, and having to trust these different ports, warehouses, and countries, with staffs that don't work directly for you. Vechain simplifies the process, and removes corruption, misinformation, fudged numbers, and even things getting lost due to centralized tracking. A lot of different medical companies (like the ones I listed) are using blockchain for more efficient medical records, healthcare logistics, etc....Blockchain makes those records immutable, incorruptible, more efficient. Everything is now verifiable. There's chains like Medifind used for that. Microsoft, among many other things, is using the Ethereum blockchain for Azure and its cloud services.

Mentions:#AWS#UPS

I'm joking. I 100% got into crypto for the technology. Because I was weary of app stores and credit card companies stealing such a large percentage of revenue from small businesses and innovators. It seemed like a way to empower "the little people", while at the same time service providers like AWS were dreadfully crushing all competition, centralizing services, all at the expense of everyone else, while a select few Bezos and Musks of the world were benefiting from centralization. After a while, after seeing our government and central bankers oppress and outright attack the working class, by devaluing our wages and entire lifetimes of savings, orchestrating the same tactics decade after decade, which obviously greatly enriched the wealthiest and themselves, I started to question why anyone ever trusted tamperable currencies, old money, deprecated money that has no actual value or even features that help people. I then realized the only solution, which millions are now working on, is to inseparably entangle next generation services and the concept of currency into algorithmically encoded, incentivized, decentralized, and rewarding platforms. I settled on Ethereum. The technology stack is easy. BUT, it is only recently, that it's become clear they will come out on top. They successfully cut their energy usage by 99%, and the next updates will absolutely crush credit card companies, payment processors, by creating scalable transactions rates that blow the old middlemen out of the water. As for other tokens, entangled in services, I mostly work with platforms where I've researched not only their economics, but the individuals and tooling and tech stacks behind them. ANY coin or tech stack, that cannot be picked up by developers in an evening, or is backed by anonymous unseen founders, is shit to me. They are fairly easy to spot, they stink of it, and look like it from a code and architecture perspective, but also from their soft and unproven wishful or outright lying "tokenomics". But I suppose more than anything, I simply don't have the time. So, I remain centered on ETH. I use GRT for GraphQL-like queries, ENS for domain names, and because of a single 30 minute so-easy to create NFT, I tried XTZ and favored it over the arduous stacks and steps to creating other platform's NFTs. SOL piqued my interests for about a week because transaction costs were reasonable, but I've fair confidence that once ETH future updates address the transaction rates and more, I'll spend no time building upon other platforms.

I have never had a problem with Gemini and they claim they are a 1-1 reserve exchange. I think you will be fine. Gemini Earn which is their yield programme is tied up with the Genesis liquidity issue but is entirely separate to their exchange and its reserves. FWIW I use Gemini as an on/off ramp - even over the past week - and other than a few hours outage the other day when one of their AWS servers went down they have been flawless

Mentions:#AWS

In a complete and functional system (of which what you're described is neither), the cost of generating and tracking the ownership of a unique ID per ticket is just a tiny rounding error on the cloud billing from Google or AWS compared to all the other stuff which is needed.

Mentions:#AWS

I’d maybe suggest starting with an AWS CCP course to get your feet wet with cloud computing. These conversations will go better if you have an understanding of your requirements and how they will actually be implemented. I didn’t say anything I wouldn’t consider surface level in my reply.

Mentions:#AWS#CCP

so when do you get your staked eth back again? also the centralization of mining pools is overstated. its like saying AWS owns every website that it hosts if AWS does something nefarious then people stop hosting their websites on AWS and competition continues.

Mentions:#AWS

#Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Reusing from [my previous entry here](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoke5/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_pos_conarguments/hd7dme2/). > > *Disclosure: (assuming Ethereum successfully transitions to PoS) ~50-60% of my current portfolio is in PoS coins, not including tokens that run on those chains* > > #PoS Con Argument > > Just a note that there are [lots of variations](https://www.finyear.com/photo/art/default/31320255-29572660.jpg?v=1551793721) on the Proof of Stake consensus model - e.g., [Proof of Staked Authority](https://github.com/binance-chain/whitepaper/blob/master/WHITEPAPER.md#consensus-and-validator-quorum) (BSC), [Pure Proof of Stake](https://www.algorand.com/technology/pure-proof-of-stake) (ALGO), Bonded Proof of Stake (ATOM), Delegated Proof of Stake (EOS), Liquid Proof of Stake (XTZ), Nominated Proof of Stake (DOT) etc. Different implementations have different tradeoffs, but I'll try to keep the main arguments general. > > ##Wealth and control > > - As other con arguments mention, PoS consensus favors big players and can [lead to centralization of wealth and control](https://medium.com/stakin/centralization-of-stake-in-pos-f7ccb8f8254). > > - In the absence of staking pools or delegators, the necessary capital required to self-stake (+ hardware costs) can exclude smaller participants: > > - [If you got in early, then you have a larger stake - and your position is basically guaranteed since you had a head start in earning rewards](https://www.coinbureau.com/blockchain/proof-of-activity-explained-hybrid-consensus-algorithm/#Introducing_Proof_of_Stake). > > - If you have a bigger stake you're probably in a position to hoard it, accruing compound interest and solidifying your position as a whale. > > * Airdrops are great, but if they're based off a snapshot of staked holdings ('stakedrop') then the rich get richer (some projects have tried to make [fairer distributions](https://medium.com/osmosis/osmo-token-distribution-ae27ea2bb4db), but [whales gonna do whale things](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/q8y550/centralization_issue_in_juno/)). > > - The bonding/unbonding periods of some protocols disincentivize participation from less wealthy users who may need to keep their assets liquid in the face of market volatility (i.e. opportunity cost). E.g., ATOM has a 21 day unbonding period. > > - Even if you delegate your stake to validators, there is a centralization of power/wealth: > > - The lack of incentive for smaller participants to be active in the voting process undermines the system's democratic intentions: > > > "[This leaves the door open for the whales to have a more direct influence over the network, especially if they are also able to take control of masses of smaller votes via proxy.](https://www.coinbureau.com/education/delegated-proof-stake-dpos/#Disadvantages_of_DPoS)" > > - Entrusting validation to a small group of participants introduces trust into the equation - delegates could form cartels making the blockchain less decentralized and less resilient to attacks. > > - Cartels aren't just a theoretical issue - historical examples include **EOS**, which has a [vote buying system](https://research.binance.com/en/analysis/eos-governance) leading to [accusations of cartels bribing an exchange](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/10/04/vote-buying-scandal-stokes-fears-of-eos-governance-failure/) and **LISK** which had a [cartel](https://np.reddit.com/r/Lisk/comments/8dwwqa/delegates_or_delegateyou_decide/) likened to [the mafia](https://medium.com/coinmonks/lisk-the-mafia-blockchain-47248915ae2f). > > - Various examples of centralization on more notable chains include: > > - **ADA**: [Binance has 12% of the total stake](https://adapools.org/groups). As /u\/Eagle-Pool explained in [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/cardano/comments/muf1ap/why_staking_your_ada_with_binance_is_a_bad_idea/): > > >"Cardano created [Enterprise Wallets](https://docs.cardano.org/en/latest/learn/types-addresses.html) that were meant to be used by exchanges that shouldn't carry stake rights. Clearly, Binance isn't using those since they've created so many pools. If they participate in Catalyst voting, they have enough Ada to make or break any project." > > - **ATOM**: [CEXs \(Binance, Coinbase and Kraken\) hold ~17% of the staking power](https://www.mintscan.io/cosmos/validators). > > - **BNB**: [21 validators and if you want to be one you'll need a minimum 10,000 BNB](https://docs.binance.org/smart-chain/validator/Parameters.html). Meanwhile, [Binance owns ~80% of BNB](https://www.coincarp.com/currencies/binance-coin/richlist/). > > - **ETH**: running your own [validator requires 32 ETH](https://github.com/ethereum/annotated-spec/blob/master/phase0/beacon-chain.md#gwei-values). [~20% of validators belong to whales and centralized exchanges.](https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution) > > - **DOT**: would recommend the [DOT Con Argument thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/og2peh/rcryptocurrency_cointest_top_10_category_polkadot/) for specifics on the confusing election and nomination aspects of the governance system. [The minimum required stake needs to be higher than the least staked validator](https://wiki.polkadot.network/docs/faq#what-is-the-minimum-stake-necessary-to-be-elected-as-an-active-validator), currently [1.6M DOT](https://ipfs.io/ipns/polkadot.dotapps.io/#/staking/targets). > > - Lastly, there's also centralization to consider given validators' reliance on infrastructure providers like AWS, [Bison Trails](https://bisontrails.co/protocols/) or [Infura for ETH](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) and software clients ([like Geth for ETH](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c)). > > > > ###Subjectivity > > - This may be a bit more technical, so bear with me. > > - There is trust involved not just when delegating to a validator, but also at a more fundamental level - how PoS nodes connecting to the network 'learn' what the 'truth' is, i.e. how to sync and validate the correct chain: > > - PoW networks like Bitcoin's are **objective**: [when a new node comes online it can determine the 'truth' based off the protocol and the history of previous blocks](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). > > - On the other end of the spectrum is a network like Ripple, which is **subjective**: [all the nodes are sort of doing their own thing to determine what the truth is. The network thus requires nodes to have reputation, otherwise anyone could spin up a bunch of nodes to take over](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/) (i.e., [Sybil Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack)). > > - PoS falls in the middle, it's '**[weakly subjective](https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/weak-subjectivity)**': [when a new node comes online it has to find someone to tell it what the truth is so it can sync up. Reliance on a trusted third party thus adds a small but non-zero amount of risk not found in the PoW security model](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/r6voht/general_concepts_round_pos_conarguments_december/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Proof_of_Stake) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/yy5ofm/daily_general_discussion_november_18_2022_gmt0/).

#Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Reusing from [my previous entry here](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoke5/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_pos_conarguments/hd7dme2/). > > *Disclosure: (assuming Ethereum successfully transitions to PoS) ~50-60% of my current portfolio is in PoS coins, not including tokens that run on those chains* > > #PoS Con Argument > > Just a note that there are [lots of variations](https://www.finyear.com/photo/art/default/31320255-29572660.jpg?v=1551793721) on the Proof of Stake consensus model - e.g., [Proof of Staked Authority](https://github.com/binance-chain/whitepaper/blob/master/WHITEPAPER.md#consensus-and-validator-quorum) (BSC), [Pure Proof of Stake](https://www.algorand.com/technology/pure-proof-of-stake) (ALGO), Bonded Proof of Stake (ATOM), Delegated Proof of Stake (EOS), Liquid Proof of Stake (XTZ), Nominated Proof of Stake (DOT) etc. Different implementations have different tradeoffs, but I'll try to keep the main arguments general. > > ##Wealth and control > > - As other con arguments mention, PoS consensus favors big players and can [lead to centralization of wealth and control](https://medium.com/stakin/centralization-of-stake-in-pos-f7ccb8f8254). > > - In the absence of staking pools or delegators, the necessary capital required to self-stake (+ hardware costs) can exclude smaller participants: > > - [If you got in early, then you have a larger stake - and your position is basically guaranteed since you had a head start in earning rewards](https://www.coinbureau.com/blockchain/proof-of-activity-explained-hybrid-consensus-algorithm/#Introducing_Proof_of_Stake). > > - If you have a bigger stake you're probably in a position to hoard it, accruing compound interest and solidifying your position as a whale. > > * Airdrops are great, but if they're based off a snapshot of staked holdings ('stakedrop') then the rich get richer (some projects have tried to make [fairer distributions](https://medium.com/osmosis/osmo-token-distribution-ae27ea2bb4db), but [whales gonna do whale things](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/q8y550/centralization_issue_in_juno/)). > > - The bonding/unbonding periods of some protocols disincentivize participation from less wealthy users who may need to keep their assets liquid in the face of market volatility (i.e. opportunity cost). E.g., ATOM has a 21 day unbonding period. > > - Even if you delegate your stake to validators, there is a centralization of power/wealth: > > - The lack of incentive for smaller participants to be active in the voting process undermines the system's democratic intentions: > > > "[This leaves the door open for the whales to have a more direct influence over the network, especially if they are also able to take control of masses of smaller votes via proxy.](https://www.coinbureau.com/education/delegated-proof-stake-dpos/#Disadvantages_of_DPoS)" > > - Entrusting validation to a small group of participants introduces trust into the equation - delegates could form cartels making the blockchain less decentralized and less resilient to attacks. > > - Cartels aren't just a theoretical issue - historical examples include **EOS**, which has a [vote buying system](https://research.binance.com/en/analysis/eos-governance) leading to [accusations of cartels bribing an exchange](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/10/04/vote-buying-scandal-stokes-fears-of-eos-governance-failure/) and **LISK** which had a [cartel](https://np.reddit.com/r/Lisk/comments/8dwwqa/delegates_or_delegateyou_decide/) likened to [the mafia](https://medium.com/coinmonks/lisk-the-mafia-blockchain-47248915ae2f). > > - Various examples of centralization on more notable chains include: > > - **ADA**: [Binance has 12% of the total stake](https://adapools.org/groups). As /u\/Eagle-Pool explained in [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/cardano/comments/muf1ap/why_staking_your_ada_with_binance_is_a_bad_idea/): > > >"Cardano created [Enterprise Wallets](https://docs.cardano.org/en/latest/learn/types-addresses.html) that were meant to be used by exchanges that shouldn't carry stake rights. Clearly, Binance isn't using those since they've created so many pools. If they participate in Catalyst voting, they have enough Ada to make or break any project." > > - **ATOM**: [CEXs \(Binance, Coinbase and Kraken\) hold ~17% of the staking power](https://www.mintscan.io/cosmos/validators). > > - **BNB**: [21 validators and if you want to be one you'll need a minimum 10,000 BNB](https://docs.binance.org/smart-chain/validator/Parameters.html). Meanwhile, [Binance owns ~80% of BNB](https://www.coincarp.com/currencies/binance-coin/richlist/). > > - **ETH**: running your own [validator requires 32 ETH](https://github.com/ethereum/annotated-spec/blob/master/phase0/beacon-chain.md#gwei-values). [~20% of validators belong to whales and centralized exchanges.](https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution) > > - **DOT**: would recommend the [DOT Con Argument thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/og2peh/rcryptocurrency_cointest_top_10_category_polkadot/) for specifics on the confusing election and nomination aspects of the governance system. [The minimum required stake needs to be higher than the least staked validator](https://wiki.polkadot.network/docs/faq#what-is-the-minimum-stake-necessary-to-be-elected-as-an-active-validator), currently [1.6M DOT](https://ipfs.io/ipns/polkadot.dotapps.io/#/staking/targets). > > - Lastly, there's also centralization to consider given validators' reliance on infrastructure providers like AWS, [Bison Trails](https://bisontrails.co/protocols/) or [Infura for ETH](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) and software clients ([like Geth for ETH](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c)). > > > > ###Subjectivity > > - This may be a bit more technical, so bear with me. > > - There is trust involved not just when delegating to a validator, but also at a more fundamental level - how PoS nodes connecting to the network 'learn' what the 'truth' is, i.e. how to sync and validate the correct chain: > > - PoW networks like Bitcoin's are **objective**: [when a new node comes online it can determine the 'truth' based off the protocol and the history of previous blocks](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). > > - On the other end of the spectrum is a network like Ripple, which is **subjective**: [all the nodes are sort of doing their own thing to determine what the truth is. The network thus requires nodes to have reputation, otherwise anyone could spin up a bunch of nodes to take over](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/) (i.e., [Sybil Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack)). > > - PoS falls in the middle, it's '**[weakly subjective](https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/weak-subjectivity)**': [when a new node comes online it has to find someone to tell it what the truth is so it can sync up. Reliance on a trusted third party thus adds a small but non-zero amount of risk not found in the PoW security model](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/r6voht/general_concepts_round_pos_conarguments_december/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Proof_of_Stake) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/yxakfo/daily_general_discussion_november_17_2022_gmt0/).

tldr; Amazon is reportedly using a well-designed system to hide these projects, which are strictly prohibited by the Chinese government, under the guise of Amazon Cloud Services (AWS) in China. The reason behind the inconsistency is China’s strict ban on cryptocurrency. Amazon has designed a sophisticated system in the Chinese blockchain market involving virtual currency in an attempt to avoid risks. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

Mentions:#AWS#DYOR

AWS's useast2 is having issues in the last hours. Maybe it's related (and if that is the reason, is not the first time)

Mentions:#AWS

They are claiming it was AWS, their exchange might have been crushed by web traffic of users as my guess.

Mentions:#AWS

#Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Reusing from [my previous entry here](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoke5/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_pos_conarguments/hd7dme2/). > > *Disclosure: (assuming Ethereum successfully transitions to PoS) ~50-60% of my current portfolio is in PoS coins, not including tokens that run on those chains* > > #PoS Con Argument > > Just a note that there are [lots of variations](https://www.finyear.com/photo/art/default/31320255-29572660.jpg?v=1551793721) on the Proof of Stake consensus model - e.g., [Proof of Staked Authority](https://github.com/binance-chain/whitepaper/blob/master/WHITEPAPER.md#consensus-and-validator-quorum) (BSC), [Pure Proof of Stake](https://www.algorand.com/technology/pure-proof-of-stake) (ALGO), Bonded Proof of Stake (ATOM), Delegated Proof of Stake (EOS), Liquid Proof of Stake (XTZ), Nominated Proof of Stake (DOT) etc. Different implementations have different tradeoffs, but I'll try to keep the main arguments general. > > ##Wealth and control > > - As other con arguments mention, PoS consensus favors big players and can [lead to centralization of wealth and control](https://medium.com/stakin/centralization-of-stake-in-pos-f7ccb8f8254). > > - In the absence of staking pools or delegators, the necessary capital required to self-stake (+ hardware costs) can exclude smaller participants: > > - [If you got in early, then you have a larger stake - and your position is basically guaranteed since you had a head start in earning rewards](https://www.coinbureau.com/blockchain/proof-of-activity-explained-hybrid-consensus-algorithm/#Introducing_Proof_of_Stake). > > - If you have a bigger stake you're probably in a position to hoard it, accruing compound interest and solidifying your position as a whale. > > * Airdrops are great, but if they're based off a snapshot of staked holdings ('stakedrop') then the rich get richer (some projects have tried to make [fairer distributions](https://medium.com/osmosis/osmo-token-distribution-ae27ea2bb4db), but [whales gonna do whale things](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/q8y550/centralization_issue_in_juno/)). > > - The bonding/unbonding periods of some protocols disincentivize participation from less wealthy users who may need to keep their assets liquid in the face of market volatility (i.e. opportunity cost). E.g., ATOM has a 21 day unbonding period. > > - Even if you delegate your stake to validators, there is a centralization of power/wealth: > > - The lack of incentive for smaller participants to be active in the voting process undermines the system's democratic intentions: > > > "[This leaves the door open for the whales to have a more direct influence over the network, especially if they are also able to take control of masses of smaller votes via proxy.](https://www.coinbureau.com/education/delegated-proof-stake-dpos/#Disadvantages_of_DPoS)" > > - Entrusting validation to a small group of participants introduces trust into the equation - delegates could form cartels making the blockchain less decentralized and less resilient to attacks. > > - Cartels aren't just a theoretical issue - historical examples include **EOS**, which has a [vote buying system](https://research.binance.com/en/analysis/eos-governance) leading to [accusations of cartels bribing an exchange](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/10/04/vote-buying-scandal-stokes-fears-of-eos-governance-failure/) and **LISK** which had a [cartel](https://np.reddit.com/r/Lisk/comments/8dwwqa/delegates_or_delegateyou_decide/) likened to [the mafia](https://medium.com/coinmonks/lisk-the-mafia-blockchain-47248915ae2f). > > - Various examples of centralization on more notable chains include: > > - **ADA**: [Binance has 12% of the total stake](https://adapools.org/groups). As /u\/Eagle-Pool explained in [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/cardano/comments/muf1ap/why_staking_your_ada_with_binance_is_a_bad_idea/): > > >"Cardano created [Enterprise Wallets](https://docs.cardano.org/en/latest/learn/types-addresses.html) that were meant to be used by exchanges that shouldn't carry stake rights. Clearly, Binance isn't using those since they've created so many pools. If they participate in Catalyst voting, they have enough Ada to make or break any project." > > - **ATOM**: [CEXs \(Binance, Coinbase and Kraken\) hold ~17% of the staking power](https://www.mintscan.io/cosmos/validators). > > - **BNB**: [21 validators and if you want to be one you'll need a minimum 10,000 BNB](https://docs.binance.org/smart-chain/validator/Parameters.html). Meanwhile, [Binance owns ~80% of BNB](https://www.coincarp.com/currencies/binance-coin/richlist/). > > - **ETH**: running your own [validator requires 32 ETH](https://github.com/ethereum/annotated-spec/blob/master/phase0/beacon-chain.md#gwei-values). [~20% of validators belong to whales and centralized exchanges.](https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution) > > - **DOT**: would recommend the [DOT Con Argument thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/og2peh/rcryptocurrency_cointest_top_10_category_polkadot/) for specifics on the confusing election and nomination aspects of the governance system. [The minimum required stake needs to be higher than the least staked validator](https://wiki.polkadot.network/docs/faq#what-is-the-minimum-stake-necessary-to-be-elected-as-an-active-validator), currently [1.6M DOT](https://ipfs.io/ipns/polkadot.dotapps.io/#/staking/targets). > > - Lastly, there's also centralization to consider given validators' reliance on infrastructure providers like AWS, [Bison Trails](https://bisontrails.co/protocols/) or [Infura for ETH](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) and software clients ([like Geth for ETH](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c)). > > > > ###Subjectivity > > - This may be a bit more technical, so bear with me. > > - There is trust involved not just when delegating to a validator, but also at a more fundamental level - how PoS nodes connecting to the network 'learn' what the 'truth' is, i.e. how to sync and validate the correct chain: > > - PoW networks like Bitcoin's are **objective**: [when a new node comes online it can determine the 'truth' based off the protocol and the history of previous blocks](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). > > - On the other end of the spectrum is a network like Ripple, which is **subjective**: [all the nodes are sort of doing their own thing to determine what the truth is. The network thus requires nodes to have reputation, otherwise anyone could spin up a bunch of nodes to take over](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/) (i.e., [Sybil Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack)). > > - PoS falls in the middle, it's '**[weakly subjective](https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/weak-subjectivity)**': [when a new node comes online it has to find someone to tell it what the truth is so it can sync up. Reliance on a trusted third party thus adds a small but non-zero amount of risk not found in the PoW security model](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/r6voht/general_concepts_round_pos_conarguments_december/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Proof_of_Stake) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ywdu9s/daily_general_discussion_november_16_2022_gmt0/).

Thats what these exchanges choose to use. They could also use Azure or GCP, or other smaller players. AWS is a scourge

Mentions:#AWS

tldr; The number of inbound connections to a Bitcoin Core node dropped from 115 connections per minute to 85 in about 10 minutes this morning. The new connections primarily originated from three net_groups and sent version messages with rather uncommon user agents. The connections could be caused by an incident at a cloud service provider like AWS, Google or Hetzner. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

Mentions:#AWS#DYOR

Oof. Seems to be a AWS outage that’s been fixed.

Mentions:#AWS

I disagree on, the DX, but that can also be a matter of opinion. In my opinion choosing Rust the way they did was a really smart move and is relatively future proof. Rust has been voted Stack Overflows favorite language for many years in a row now, so I think picking the most popular language is an attractive thing for Devs. I'm not familiar with EVMs tooling, so I can't speak to that and I never claimed Solanas DX to be the best, but in general I think it's very good. As for the uptime, I don't love it either. But no chain has 100% uptime, not even Bitcoin. Even AWS only promises 95%+ uptime for a lot of their services, and they move billions of dollars of ecommerce for Fortune 500 companies every single day. I don't think a few outages in SOLs past that are being worked on / already fixed will deter any serious investors. Who knows what will happen, but for the sake of your 200 and my (significantly less) SOL, let's hope you're wrong!

Mentions:#DX#AWS#SOL

It's just a AWS issue but either way if you're holding coins in ANY exchange you deserve to get robbed at this point.

Mentions:#AWS

According to [the status page](https://status.gemini.com) the downtime was related to an AWS issue

Mentions:#AWS

If these exchanges have to bring down their networks for “maintenance” then it must not be very robust. A critical system should remain on (at least partially) to support the mission. In this case, how is it not critical to cost its users millions of dollars for being unable to withdraw or trade their funds? Can some IT network expert respond why it’s difficult for exchanges to do implement redundancy but easier for Google / AWS to do so?

Mentions:#AWS

Gemini tweeted they had an AWS outage and are bringing the exchange back online. Bank run can now carry on as previously scheduled.

Mentions:#AWS

>FTX is bankrupt But that has nothing to do with Gemini >Gemini in problems A website going down due to AWS bringing down a DB is not a novel problem >Silvergate in problems Silvergate is a partner that allows institutional investors to deposit and withdraw cash 24/7 365 days a year, and the only "problems" that have been reported so far are a few tweets by nobodies? >BlockFi bankrupt Again, this has nothing to do with Gemini Being realistic about the problems happening right now has absolutely nothing to do with making baseless claims about Gemini's liquidity.

Mentions:#FTX#AWS

The status page blames AWS but damn that timing sucks: https://status.gemini.com/

Mentions:#AWS

Lmfao everyone knows file storage on a blockchain is incredibly expensive and stupid or basically a cleaner UI for AWS

Mentions:#AWS

The missile hit all the AWS servers running Infura and now Ethereum doesn’t work anymore. j/k

Mentions:#AWS

Open source packages with millions of installs hacked to harvest AWS credentials Two popular open source packages used by Python and PHP developers have been quietly compromised with successful attacks already being reported This was last week, open source does not stop hacking. Aws is a trillion dollar company. Tell me how the devs are better on bisq. Thousands of open source programs/ software have been hacked on github.

Mentions:#AWS

I wouldn't. Core does funny things if the disk storage isn't accessed directly. But I could be wrong Someone else mentioned AWS. A lot of nodes run on AWS (bad for decentralisation). This means it's possible > what OS Linux

Mentions:#AWS#OS

#Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Reusing from [my previous entry here](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoke5/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_pos_conarguments/hd7dme2/). > > *Disclosure: (assuming Ethereum successfully transitions to PoS) ~50-60% of my current portfolio is in PoS coins, not including tokens that run on those chains* > > #PoS Con Argument > > Just a note that there are [lots of variations](https://www.finyear.com/photo/art/default/31320255-29572660.jpg?v=1551793721) on the Proof of Stake consensus model - e.g., [Proof of Staked Authority](https://github.com/binance-chain/whitepaper/blob/master/WHITEPAPER.md#consensus-and-validator-quorum) (BSC), [Pure Proof of Stake](https://www.algorand.com/technology/pure-proof-of-stake) (ALGO), Bonded Proof of Stake (ATOM), Delegated Proof of Stake (EOS), Liquid Proof of Stake (XTZ), Nominated Proof of Stake (DOT) etc. Different implementations have different tradeoffs, but I'll try to keep the main arguments general. > > ##Wealth and control > > - As other con arguments mention, PoS consensus favors big players and can [lead to centralization of wealth and control](https://medium.com/stakin/centralization-of-stake-in-pos-f7ccb8f8254). > > - In the absence of staking pools or delegators, the necessary capital required to self-stake (+ hardware costs) can exclude smaller participants: > > - [If you got in early, then you have a larger stake - and your position is basically guaranteed since you had a head start in earning rewards](https://www.coinbureau.com/blockchain/proof-of-activity-explained-hybrid-consensus-algorithm/#Introducing_Proof_of_Stake). > > - If you have a bigger stake you're probably in a position to hoard it, accruing compound interest and solidifying your position as a whale. > > * Airdrops are great, but if they're based off a snapshot of staked holdings ('stakedrop') then the rich get richer (some projects have tried to make [fairer distributions](https://medium.com/osmosis/osmo-token-distribution-ae27ea2bb4db), but [whales gonna do whale things](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/q8y550/centralization_issue_in_juno/)). > > - The bonding/unbonding periods of some protocols disincentivize participation from less wealthy users who may need to keep their assets liquid in the face of market volatility (i.e. opportunity cost). E.g., ATOM has a 21 day unbonding period. > > - Even if you delegate your stake to validators, there is a centralization of power/wealth: > > - The lack of incentive for smaller participants to be active in the voting process undermines the system's democratic intentions: > > > "[This leaves the door open for the whales to have a more direct influence over the network, especially if they are also able to take control of masses of smaller votes via proxy.](https://www.coinbureau.com/education/delegated-proof-stake-dpos/#Disadvantages_of_DPoS)" > > - Entrusting validation to a small group of participants introduces trust into the equation - delegates could form cartels making the blockchain less decentralized and less resilient to attacks. > > - Cartels aren't just a theoretical issue - historical examples include **EOS**, which has a [vote buying system](https://research.binance.com/en/analysis/eos-governance) leading to [accusations of cartels bribing an exchange](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/10/04/vote-buying-scandal-stokes-fears-of-eos-governance-failure/) and **LISK** which had a [cartel](https://np.reddit.com/r/Lisk/comments/8dwwqa/delegates_or_delegateyou_decide/) likened to [the mafia](https://medium.com/coinmonks/lisk-the-mafia-blockchain-47248915ae2f). > > - Various examples of centralization on more notable chains include: > > - **ADA**: [Binance has 12% of the total stake](https://adapools.org/groups). As /u\/Eagle-Pool explained in [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/cardano/comments/muf1ap/why_staking_your_ada_with_binance_is_a_bad_idea/): > > >"Cardano created [Enterprise Wallets](https://docs.cardano.org/en/latest/learn/types-addresses.html) that were meant to be used by exchanges that shouldn't carry stake rights. Clearly, Binance isn't using those since they've created so many pools. If they participate in Catalyst voting, they have enough Ada to make or break any project." > > - **ATOM**: [CEXs \(Binance, Coinbase and Kraken\) hold ~17% of the staking power](https://www.mintscan.io/cosmos/validators). > > - **BNB**: [21 validators and if you want to be one you'll need a minimum 10,000 BNB](https://docs.binance.org/smart-chain/validator/Parameters.html). Meanwhile, [Binance owns ~80% of BNB](https://www.coincarp.com/currencies/binance-coin/richlist/). > > - **ETH**: running your own [validator requires 32 ETH](https://github.com/ethereum/annotated-spec/blob/master/phase0/beacon-chain.md#gwei-values). [~20% of validators belong to whales and centralized exchanges.](https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution) > > - **DOT**: would recommend the [DOT Con Argument thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/og2peh/rcryptocurrency_cointest_top_10_category_polkadot/) for specifics on the confusing election and nomination aspects of the governance system. [The minimum required stake needs to be higher than the least staked validator](https://wiki.polkadot.network/docs/faq#what-is-the-minimum-stake-necessary-to-be-elected-as-an-active-validator), currently [1.6M DOT](https://ipfs.io/ipns/polkadot.dotapps.io/#/staking/targets). > > - Lastly, there's also centralization to consider given validators' reliance on infrastructure providers like AWS, [Bison Trails](https://bisontrails.co/protocols/) or [Infura for ETH](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) and software clients ([like Geth for ETH](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c)). > > > > ###Subjectivity > > - This may be a bit more technical, so bear with me. > > - There is trust involved not just when delegating to a validator, but also at a more fundamental level - how PoS nodes connecting to the network 'learn' what the 'truth' is, i.e. how to sync and validate the correct chain: > > - PoW networks like Bitcoin's are **objective**: [when a new node comes online it can determine the 'truth' based off the protocol and the history of previous blocks](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). > > - On the other end of the spectrum is a network like Ripple, which is **subjective**: [all the nodes are sort of doing their own thing to determine what the truth is. The network thus requires nodes to have reputation, otherwise anyone could spin up a bunch of nodes to take over](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/) (i.e., [Sybil Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack)). > > - PoS falls in the middle, it's '**[weakly subjective](https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/weak-subjectivity)**': [when a new node comes online it has to find someone to tell it what the truth is so it can sync up. Reliance on a trusted third party thus adds a small but non-zero amount of risk not found in the PoW security model](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/r6voht/general_concepts_round_pos_conarguments_december/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Proof_of_Stake) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/yuj5a2/daily_general_discussion_november_14_2022_gmt0/).

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use ... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ytmecs/daily_general_discussion_november_13_2022_gmt0/).

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use ... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ytmecs/daily_general_discussion_november_13_2022_gmt0/).

#Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Proof-of-Stake Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Reusing from [my previous entry here](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfoke5/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_pos_conarguments/hd7dme2/). > > *Disclosure: (assuming Ethereum successfully transitions to PoS) ~50-60% of my current portfolio is in PoS coins, not including tokens that run on those chains* > > #PoS Con Argument > > Just a note that there are [lots of variations](https://www.finyear.com/photo/art/default/31320255-29572660.jpg?v=1551793721) on the Proof of Stake consensus model - e.g., [Proof of Staked Authority](https://github.com/binance-chain/whitepaper/blob/master/WHITEPAPER.md#consensus-and-validator-quorum) (BSC), [Pure Proof of Stake](https://www.algorand.com/technology/pure-proof-of-stake) (ALGO), Bonded Proof of Stake (ATOM), Delegated Proof of Stake (EOS), Liquid Proof of Stake (XTZ), Nominated Proof of Stake (DOT) etc. Different implementations have different tradeoffs, but I'll try to keep the main arguments general. > > ##Wealth and control > > - As other con arguments mention, PoS consensus favors big players and can [lead to centralization of wealth and control](https://medium.com/stakin/centralization-of-stake-in-pos-f7ccb8f8254). > > - In the absence of staking pools or delegators, the necessary capital required to self-stake (+ hardware costs) can exclude smaller participants: > > - [If you got in early, then you have a larger stake - and your position is basically guaranteed since you had a head start in earning rewards](https://www.coinbureau.com/blockchain/proof-of-activity-explained-hybrid-consensus-algorithm/#Introducing_Proof_of_Stake). > > - If you have a bigger stake you're probably in a position to hoard it, accruing compound interest and solidifying your position as a whale. > > * Airdrops are great, but if they're based off a snapshot of staked holdings ('stakedrop') then the rich get richer (some projects have tried to make [fairer distributions](https://medium.com/osmosis/osmo-token-distribution-ae27ea2bb4db), but [whales gonna do whale things](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/q8y550/centralization_issue_in_juno/)). > > - The bonding/unbonding periods of some protocols disincentivize participation from less wealthy users who may need to keep their assets liquid in the face of market volatility (i.e. opportunity cost). E.g., ATOM has a 21 day unbonding period. > > - Even if you delegate your stake to validators, there is a centralization of power/wealth: > > - The lack of incentive for smaller participants to be active in the voting process undermines the system's democratic intentions: > > > "[This leaves the door open for the whales to have a more direct influence over the network, especially if they are also able to take control of masses of smaller votes via proxy.](https://www.coinbureau.com/education/delegated-proof-stake-dpos/#Disadvantages_of_DPoS)" > > - Entrusting validation to a small group of participants introduces trust into the equation - delegates could form cartels making the blockchain less decentralized and less resilient to attacks. > > - Cartels aren't just a theoretical issue - historical examples include **EOS**, which has a [vote buying system](https://research.binance.com/en/analysis/eos-governance) leading to [accusations of cartels bribing an exchange](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2018/10/04/vote-buying-scandal-stokes-fears-of-eos-governance-failure/) and **LISK** which had a [cartel](https://np.reddit.com/r/Lisk/comments/8dwwqa/delegates_or_delegateyou_decide/) likened to [the mafia](https://medium.com/coinmonks/lisk-the-mafia-blockchain-47248915ae2f). > > - Various examples of centralization on more notable chains include: > > - **ADA**: [Binance has 12% of the total stake](https://adapools.org/groups). As /u\/Eagle-Pool explained in [this post](https://np.reddit.com/r/cardano/comments/muf1ap/why_staking_your_ada_with_binance_is_a_bad_idea/): > > >"Cardano created [Enterprise Wallets](https://docs.cardano.org/en/latest/learn/types-addresses.html) that were meant to be used by exchanges that shouldn't carry stake rights. Clearly, Binance isn't using those since they've created so many pools. If they participate in Catalyst voting, they have enough Ada to make or break any project." > > - **ATOM**: [CEXs \(Binance, Coinbase and Kraken\) hold ~17% of the staking power](https://www.mintscan.io/cosmos/validators). > > - **BNB**: [21 validators and if you want to be one you'll need a minimum 10,000 BNB](https://docs.binance.org/smart-chain/validator/Parameters.html). Meanwhile, [Binance owns ~80% of BNB](https://www.coincarp.com/currencies/binance-coin/richlist/). > > - **ETH**: running your own [validator requires 32 ETH](https://github.com/ethereum/annotated-spec/blob/master/phase0/beacon-chain.md#gwei-values). [~20% of validators belong to whales and centralized exchanges.](https://beaconcha.in/charts/deposits_distribution) > > - **DOT**: would recommend the [DOT Con Argument thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/og2peh/rcryptocurrency_cointest_top_10_category_polkadot/) for specifics on the confusing election and nomination aspects of the governance system. [The minimum required stake needs to be higher than the least staked validator](https://wiki.polkadot.network/docs/faq#what-is-the-minimum-stake-necessary-to-be-elected-as-an-active-validator), currently [1.6M DOT](https://ipfs.io/ipns/polkadot.dotapps.io/#/staking/targets). > > - Lastly, there's also centralization to consider given validators' reliance on infrastructure providers like AWS, [Bison Trails](https://bisontrails.co/protocols/) or [Infura for ETH](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) and software clients ([like Geth for ETH](https://medium.com/coinmonks/how-eth-2-0-could-resolve-the-long-running-centralization-debate-c416b394e54c)). > > > > ###Subjectivity > > - This may be a bit more technical, so bear with me. > > - There is trust involved not just when delegating to a validator, but also at a more fundamental level - how PoS nodes connecting to the network 'learn' what the 'truth' is, i.e. how to sync and validate the correct chain: > > - PoW networks like Bitcoin's are **objective**: [when a new node comes online it can determine the 'truth' based off the protocol and the history of previous blocks](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). > > - On the other end of the spectrum is a network like Ripple, which is **subjective**: [all the nodes are sort of doing their own thing to determine what the truth is. The network thus requires nodes to have reputation, otherwise anyone could spin up a bunch of nodes to take over](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/) (i.e., [Sybil Attack](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack)). > > - PoS falls in the middle, it's '**[weakly subjective](https://academy.binance.com/en/glossary/weak-subjectivity)**': [when a new node comes online it has to find someone to tell it what the truth is so it can sync up. Reliance on a trusted third party thus adds a small but non-zero amount of risk not found in the PoW security model](https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/). ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/r6voht/general_concepts_round_pos_conarguments_december/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Proof_of_Stake) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/ytmecs/daily_general_discussion_november_13_2022_gmt0/).

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying