TCP

fractalfocuser

Yep I'd agree. We're in another quiet building stage for crypto. First it was the nerds, then the speculators, and now the first mover normies are coming along. They don't trust it yet (and they shouldn't, skepticism is how banks stay in business) but they're testing the waters. Another 5yrs of development will see the rest of the normies start to move onchain. Use cases need to be proven viable, long term stability needs to be earned, and regulations need to be signed in blood. It took 15 years to go from NCP to TCP/IP and another 10 years for HTML to come along. The dotcom bubble burst in 2000 and people said the internet was a fad. Now I'm writing this on a mobile device with near constant network connection more than 50 years after ARPANET came online. Revolutionary technologies take a lot of time

Hour-Oil-1666

Lolz, where do you see IPv4 and TCP being replaced, funny thing is that ipv6 failed and we can see fall back to v4 :)

Hour-Oil-1666

Tell that to TCP or IPv4 :D

biba8163

In 2019, I kept warning gullibles not to fall for the tech meme. Of course people fell for token dump tech memes like ALGO, etc. Don't be like bagholding governors. You can do better. > You seem to be fixated on tech. Tech means nothing if nobody uses it and if nobody cares. NXT was the most advanced coin in 2013 and still one of the most advanced now. Created by the founder of IOTA, it had a ton going for it. People thought it was like TCP/IP or Linux of blockchains and the future: > - First coin that was 100% Proof of Stake pioneered by IOTA founder > - 1.5 minutes block times > - Java > - DEX > - Messaging > - Assets in the blockchain > - Programmable APIs > But what happened? LTC is #4 and doing great and NXT is pretty much dead. https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/bza16u/top_7_unique_highpotential_cryptocurrencies_of/eqt1lh5/

Astropin

I'm saying if you understand dominant protocols then you understand why Bitcoin can't be replaced. If you think it can then you don't understand how dominant protocols work. TCP/IP is the dominant protocol of the Internet. It has been around since the 70's. It doesn't get replaced...it gets built on top of. Bitcoin will get built on top of ...not replaced. Volatile? Yes... risky? No. There is a difference.

KPS-UK77

It's not really comparable, TCP/IP is literally a protocol, it was serving a purpose globally. Currently BTC is not integrated into any system. Really there's nothing stopping the whales suddenly crashing in, selling up everything and switching another altcoin, which would I turn cause that coin price to rocket. Until BTC is integrated into our banking/financial world it's still a speculative.

oespanyol

Best analogy is the TCP/IP protocol for the internet. Not the best, but one of the first ones that quickly became the dominant. Very difficult to replace now unless there is a new paradigm.

JanPB

It's just like in the early 1990s when people thought (including Warren Buffett) that digital commerce wasn't real. I remember snickering around that time: "Microsoft? And what do they produce? Just software? How is that sustainable?" What the TCP/IP does to information, Bitcoin does to the money. Also keep in mind that nothing has intrinsic value except water and food. Everything else (gold included) relies on a mere social convention or agreement for it to function as a carrier of value.

sun_cardinal

Elaborate, because to me it seems like the server or instance hosting the original NFT image was taken down for violating cloudflare's policies. How does that tie into networking? I am also assuming you mean networking in the TCP/IP sense.

BaconGreaseShot

Of all the theories I've heard, Dr. Jack Kruse has the most compelling take on how bitcoin was originally created - The concept was started by the Jewish mob as a way to launder money. In 1973 Meyer Lansky is released from jail and went on to search for the most brilliant IT person to setup a P2P money laundering system for Murder Inc and CIA. That's how he discovered David Chaum Chaum works from 1981 - 1998 creating and running Digicash. Couple of his customers are Duetche Bank, Mark Twain Bank (ran by mob) they were trying to take Lanky's idea and use Chaum's system, Lansky dies in 1983, who was trying to build his private P2P network. Chaum open sources it in around 1987-1989, then the Cypher Punks come in. Digicash is sold in 1998 to Naveen Jain who ran Infosis, which was google before google. Len Sassaman, a PHD candicate under David Chaum shows up. He realized what Chaum, Adam Back, what everyone didn't know. Timestamping is key. Sassaman was involved in the creation of TCP/IP for TOR and that's where he learned about timestamping. If it didn't go open source and Sassaman wasn't the PHD candicate for Chaum, bitcoin would have never happened. 02:19:45 of this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yALOChgRrHQ&t=8437s

GeeEyeDoe

Technology tends to have a first in rule to it. The first best thing is the most popular. Amazon, Netflix, TCP/IP, cellular networks, etc. People try to make copies but the first one has the networking and marketing power such that it will not be overtaken unless someone finds a much better alternative (ie VHS to DVD to Digital Streaming). Bitcoin was the first of its nature. Decentralized blockchain protocol with an immaculate conception whose creator(S) vanished. It is the best so far. Sure, someone could make a copy and vanish, some may use it, but it will never get the same level of adoption and admiration at the first, Bitcoin, which is trusted and proven.

biba8163

> Silvio himself said... Reminds me of all the BAT fanboys worshipping Brendan Eich in 2018/2019 saying the big brained creator of Javascript, founder of the Mozilla foundation was creating a revolution in digital advertising and I am a fudder who doesn't understand what's happening when I kept telling people BAT was a money grab gimick token. Of course big brained Brenden is a scammer and so is Silvio and they'll say anything to dump on you at a higher price > BAT is a gimmick and it'll never be adopted https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/cflfh9/why_does_brave_need_its_own_currency_why_cant_it/euba6hr/ > simply the best tech I warned people not to fall for the tech meme almost every day back in 2018-2020. Of course people fell for token dump tech memes like ALGO, DOT, ATOM, HBAR, etc over the next few years and everyone has lost money. > You seem to be fixated on tech. Tech means nothing if nobody uses it and if nobody cares. NXT was the most advanced coin in 2013 and still one of the most advanced now. Created by the founder of IOTA, it had a ton going for it. People thought it was like TCP/IP or Linux of blockchains and the future: > - First coin that was 100% Proof of Stake pioneered by IOTA founder > - 1.5 minutes block times > - Java > - DEX > - Messaging > - Assets in the blockchain > - Programmable APIs > But what happened? LTC is #4 and doing great and NXT is pretty much dead. https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/bza16u/top_7_unique_highpotential_cryptocurrencies_of/eqt1lh5/

admin_default

The TCP/IP system you’re using now has been the standard for 50+ years, with no signs of abating. Protocol level technologies can persist far longer than anyone will be alive.

Objective_Digit

AOL was/is a service provider. Bitcoin is a protocol. TCP/IP is an old, old protocol. It still hasn't been supplanted. "Slow" is completely relative. It's far faster than shipping gold. Monero may be faster (for whatever that's worth, after all a Bitcoin wallet shows a 0 confirmation tx immediately) but it's less secure. https://howmanyconfs.com Privacy can built onto Bitcoin. Lightning txs are private. Monero will always be a target for regulation. >(finite supply neither creates nor preserves value Explain then how Monero is down 90% vs Bitcoin. This tail emission rubbish is what Monero heads use to defend no supply cap.

rgnet1

That question’s been asked since bitcoin’s invention and there’s been plenty of active friction. SEC put blockades up constantly until a judge ruled they can’t just block it without reason. IRS ruled spending a coffee’s worth of bitcoin is a taxable event same as selling a block of $100k. Banks actively propagandized first that it was a scam then that it’s unsafe, then that it’s worthless… until now they all have it as an investment option. Bitcoin is a protocol, same as TCP/IP is the ruleset the internet uses to communicate. You can’t shut it down. You can create friction. As long as “free” democracy countries continue to uphold an open internet (ie not China, Russia etc), bitcoin is neutral communication like every other bit of net traffic. Although even in those closed countries, VPNs can circumvent. Napster was shut down because it was centralized. Torrents are still used because bittorrent is just a decentralized protocol. And no, torrents aren’t just for criminals, same as decoupled money from government isn’t. Blizzard used to use torrents (they still do I think?) to distribute its massive Warcraft patches because centralized distribution would fail on patch day.

codingwithcoffee

**"Bitcoin is becoming too institutional..."** Ok. How could this be avoided as Bitcoin continues to grow? Could we reasonably expect mass adoption to spontaneously happen via word of mouth in local meetups? The path to mass adoption surely has to include some level of institutional interest and participation? **"It correlates too starkly to Wall Street, indexes and financial news..."** Bitcoin is a financial instrument, born out of a financial crisis. Whether we view it as an investment or not, there are people who do - which means that market events will have an impact as people react to them (and big players will manipulate the market for their own gain). **"There aren't any cool new projects..."** Well this would be news to people building projects like Lemon Drop, Flashnet, Charms, Spark, Beyond, etc. As the network / protocol matures, there is less need to refine and work on the core concept (although that is also still happening), and more scope for exploring potential layers on top that address other needs and (potential) markets. When the internet was born, the early work was all on boring (foundational!) stuff like protocols - agreeing how HTTP would work over TCP, codifying mail transport, ftp, etc. Then Mosaic was launched and everyone got in on the "make a browser" trend (kind of like NFTs). What "cool exciting" projects are happening on the HTTP protocol today? From a narrow view, nothing much - HTTP/2 was released in 2015 and HTTP/3 in 2022. Changes are measured in years. Take a step back though and it's vibe-coding, AI, and literally everything else being built on top of "the internet". In my view Bitcoin will mature like the internet. The core protocol will be updated rarely, and will form a stable platform for other innovations to happen. For example, integration into the mainstream financial services world, allowing crypto loans, payment through visa/mastercard, etc. **The biggest question though.. if you're** ***really*** **selling - where will you put your money instead?** Unless you're a "bullets and beans" guy, I don't see a lot of good alternatives... Sure you can hold it as cash. And this might even look smart in the very short term, but you still have to outrun inflation or you are losing purchasing power - and inflation is looking like things are about to get crazy. Stocks are in the crapper. Bonds are down. Will they recover? Probably. Do you think you can time it though? The best time to sell your stocks was yesterday. The best time to buy? So where do you store value for the longer term? Gold? It's basically Bitcoin for the industrial age. It will probably do ok over the coming months / years as a risk-off hedge. Will the digital version do better in the digital age? My money is on "yes". It's your money, so you are free to do whatever you choose. Good luck, internet stranger!

Objective_Digit

It's not the same. Bitcoin is a protocol, not a product. Where are the other versions of BitTorrent or TCP/IP?

diHobbes

I think Bitcoin will be used for much longer than that. Bitcoin is a protocol, basically a language for computers. Just like languages for humans the bitcoin protocol will evolve and improve so there won't be a need for a replacement. The same thing will happen with other internet protocols such as TCP/IP or the internet as a whole, it will evolve and adapt.

Puzzleheaded-Bug-223

Nice read/explanation. How can TCP/IP-like technology be commercialised though?

CunningStunt_1

My mistake. I misunderstood your post as chainlink is not a Blockchain. It's a oracle network, which is similar, as they both have nodes that work together to form a consensus. Chainlinks CCIP sits on top of 100s of other blockchains, like TCP/IP, does to bring the internet together.

lordmairtis

yeah, but with TCP/IP it was ARPANET's invention, the TCP/IP is literally defined in an RFC (request for change) that was the collection of standards specific to that network, it wasn't some random team thinking we should come up with a bridge and get rich. ARPANET community defined a protocol, it was efficient and it spread to other networks very quickly.

GaRGa77

Bitcoin is like TCP/IP

MiltronB

Yes dude. I told you. Bitcoin is the hardest form of money every created. All the rest is just noise. You guys want to build the next TCP/IP; have at it. But that is not "anti-establishment". And if you think "smart contracts" are sticking it up to the man, you are very wrong bro. I see you are from Oz. You guys have it worst than the Brits or the Canadians. You thnk cardano fixes that? No bro. Charles will be the first to give your keys to the government if they dont like what you are doing.

Roland_91_

Being compatible with the current system does not mean you are intrinsically part of the system. Regulation will exist. Being marked 'illlegal'  is not the only metric for being classed as anti establishment.  The aim here is for cardano to be the standardised blockchain protocol, like TCP/IP, Bluetooth, 5g, etc.  It's not about complying with regulation. They are trying to write the regulations.

Btcyoda

I understand the comparison with the internet. Bitcoin is a Protocol so compare it to TCP/IP. That also explains why it doesn't need much innovation, if it works it works. Next money is nothing new, Bitcoin is a better form. It is replacing fiat, which is a terrible solution, and gold/silver As such it is hard to compare with a new application as the internet. Since we have Lightning it is suitable to be used large scale. So that is only a few years ongoing. In its current form it is not sure if LN can on-board all humans. It is reasonable to expect more innovation in that respect (LN or another layer all together). All things combined it is hard to see anything that comes close to it, so comparisons will only work limited. The internet was giving a free flow of information and changed the world. Bitcoin is combining the Store of Value of gold and the transportabiliy of fiat. It combines the best of gold and fiat while leaving out the bad. If it succeeds it will have a bigger impact on humanity than the internet had.

DiedOnTitan

I don’t see it the way you do. Bitcoin is an Internet protocol. Like TCP/IP. There were competing protocols at this layer, but TCP/IP won and now we build on top of it. HTTP/S came along much later and brought the web to us. Arguing for a better TCP/IP is pointless. Internet protocols are designed to be layered and they should not strive to handle all use cases. In about 3 halvings, the block reward will be about even between newly minted Bitcoin and transaction fees. From that point forward there will be more reward to miners from transactions. If the price of bitcoin does not cover mining expenses then miners will simply shut down until the equilibrium of difficulty to reward is stabilized. I am not worried at all about the future of mining as the current algorithm will adjust according to market dynamics. If it is not painfully obvious at this time that Bitcoin is the clear winner, then you are free to continue speculating in shitcoins and hope you get out before the inevitable rug pull or their continual slide against the value of Bitcoin. Money is a winner take all war. The market has chosen.

godofleet

>Why does Bitcoin even exist? Because there is no other/better tool that does what the bitcoin protocol and network do. There is no better digital sound monetary tool... Why does Email as a protocol exist? What does TCP/IP exist? Why not just use fax machines and snail mail?

DiedOnTitan

That’s like saying there are no better protocols than TCP/IP. There may be, but it doesn’t matter. TCP/IP won and we are building on top of it. Block speed does not matter. It’s about settlement assurance. How much energy over time does it take to reverse a transaction? Bitcoin crushes all other PoW blockchains combined and it is not even close.

Worth_Tip_7894

Okay so this seems quite unlikely, but before we proceed we need to define some terms. As you are talking about a bot-net, then your attack surface is the network of P2P nodes. P2P nodes usually perform several functions: 1. Receiving new transactions and blocks 2. Checking those new transactions and blocks against consensus rules 3. Relaying known and valid transactions and blocks to other peers 4. Storing the blockchain (the history of all transactions and blocks) or at least some part of it The networking happens over the internet, so it's often a weak point in any blockchain, or it could be. We also need to consider how many network nodes produce new blocks, and how many are passive or storage nodes. Also how are nodes connected together, how many are allowing inbound and outbound, how many are just outbound connections, are any connections through Tor or other private connections (maybe over a VPN tunnel). If there are only a few parties creating almost all new blocks, then simply taking the block creators offline will effectively stop the blockchain. So think about Bitcoin, only a dozen pools create almost all blocks, if you target those pools, then the blockchain will slow down to a crawl. Of course we hope those pools are connected to multiple global egress points onto the internet, and they probably have private connections between the big pools as it makes sense for them to publish their blocks to each other quickly. So it's a question over whether your bot-net can clog up all those egress points at the same time. In terms of replacement of copies of the blockchain on passive nodes, this would depend on how those nodes are connected. Usually when people talk about numbers of nodes, what they really mean is number of discoverable nodes, these are nodes with open ports. Bitcoin typically communicates on TCP 8333, but if your local port is closed you will only make outbound connections and so your node is not discoverable. This would make it very hard for a drive by not to infect your node. Of course outbound connections must connect to another node that allows inbound, or there won't be a connection. So again it could be conceivable to take down all discoverable nodes for a while, but anyone with outbound only just has to wait for your attack to stop and then the network can be restored from clean copies. Probably a more difficult attack is network bifurcation, where the internet itself is cut in two, either physically or through perhaps a BGP attack on the internet itself. Now your blockchain may genuinely create two valid versions in each part of the internet. Once internet connection is restored one version will eventually over-ride the other, rewriting chain history, and causing transactions to be reversed on the weaker fork, well that's the theory at least, it's never actually happened so we don't know for sure. Really robust blockchains like Bitcoin and Cardano are designed with these types of issues in mind, there are mitigations throughout the network stack and the community of users who run nodes know how to make their networks diverse and harder to attack.

Necroscope420

Over time adoption has only grown, there is a known limit to the total number that will ever be minted. So far in its history anyone who has held through even a single cycle has not only maintained their wealth but had it grow. The more time this remains true the more likely it is to increase adoption even more and further growing the stability. It has literally every single monetary attribute that gold has except all of them functionally better. Golds functional value is always pointed to as a use case explaining its value but that is ridiculously untrue. Industrial usefulness does not even come remotely close to explaining golds value and everything monetarily valuable about gold is even more pronounced with BTC. It is quickly becoming the base monetary layer on the internet just like TCP/IP is the base communications layer. Most people this early in the adoption of the internet thought it was pointless too (for those young'uns that find this hard to believe... believe what you want I lived through it and remember the arguments). They were wrong. The BTC haters/ those who think it has no point are wrong too. Time will tell but so far it all is coming true as maxis predicted all along. Game theory is right on track...

rankinrez

We already have open source solutions like MariaDB, Postgres, TCP/IP, TLS. Open source or not there is no reason to choose bad solutions that barely work.

godofleet

No doubt, it's a lot to learn and we can't learn without leaning into each other :D Consider this video too: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkqBZnrKJM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIkqBZnrKJM) And his whole channel really :D You'll see people say "bitcoin not crypto" and i think that video does a great job explaining the "why" of that phrase. It's easy when you're learning to get convinced that XYZ "crypto" is the "next best thing" and then find yourself getting rug-pulled/scammed :/ just try and remember that Bitcoin is a protocol for decentralized money on the internet, there is no "alternative TCP/IP" or "alterative email"

DiedOnTitan

Sharpen your "Bitcoin is not crypto" message. Your separation of the two started to break down. You opened with a good association: crypto is adjacent to the fiat system because it is essentially a casino of moonshots and gambling - it's digital Lotto. But you follow with weak NGU arguments which are cringe .. go further into the problem: The fiat standard makes saving impossible. My dollar today is worth more than my dollar tomorrow, so spend it immediately. Making coffee at home ain't cutting it. Hope is lost to "work hard" for a better future. Instead of NGU garbage, cover the fact that Bitcoin has a massive wall of distributed energy sources, single function ASICs, data centers, and expertise that makes the Bitcoin network economically impregnable. And if any actor or state tried to overpower the hash rate of the network, they would be **much** more successful and powerful playing by the rules and stacking. The Game theory is exquisite. Finally, learn about "settlement assurance" as a key differentiator. This is the amount of energy to reverse a transaction or double spend. Bitcoin has the deepest and **fastest** level of settlement assurance. Not block confirmation speed - this is a vanity metric and a trade off that centralizes nodes. No. You want irreversible and final settlement assurance. Bitcoin has more settlement assurance than all other PoW blockchains combined. Finally, there is trust. Satoshi removed it from finance. With the massive advantage in security and settlement assurance, the most is not 10 feet deep. It's 10 miles deep. This protocol is getting embedded deeper than TCP/IP and can only be done once. These are real things that separate Bitcoin from crypto.

Astaroth_Infinity

The Apple vs Nokia argument doesn't apply since Apple phones are physical objects that have better properties, better engineering, better costs than Nokia phones. Also, Apple as a company just simply outperformed and outmaneuvered Nokia as a company. Bitcoin is a protocol, like TCP/IP. Once protocols become standard and obtain network effect as he said, they very very rarely get eclipsed.

drunkmax00va

The TCP protocol came out in 1973, was never trashed and is used to this day. There's no reason to think BTC will be trashed

Difficult_Plant4524

From what I’ve heard it’s being related to the TCP/IP protocol. That was invented in 1975. In terms of the Internet, we are at approximately 1991 for bitcoin. The big years are coming ahead.

Mike714321

Can anyone offer any help why my install of bitcoincore downloaded everything up to the last year in about 6 days and I had lots of peers but now as i'm getting closer to finishing it's slowed down significantly and i only see about 2 or 3 peer connections at most now? I increased my database cache to 3500Mib from the 450Mib and I have 8333 setup in router for TCP.

LiveCat6

It's more like people don't want to waste their time explaining something complex to people who aren't intellectually capable of understanding it anyways. Do you understand how TCP/IP works? No but you use the internet and it works just fine. And it would be a waste of time to write a whole 5 paragraphs explaining TCP/IP to someone who won't appreciate the time it takes to write it out. The bitcoin whitepaper is out there and is free for the reading yet people don't read it and instead want some bespoke comment to be written for them to explain something that's already bedm perfectly explained by Satoshi himself. If you can't be bothered to read the Bitcoin white paper, as Satoshi himself said, I don't have time to try to convince you.

xenzor

People used to argue over consensus methods and how chain A had better mechanisms than Chain B. Willing to bet more than half of the people who own crypto these days coupe even explain Blockchain. In some ways this is great. People don't need to understand TCP/IP mechanics to watch Netflix. That's how mass adoption happens. It just works and people don't care.

worldwideballer

I love this comment. TCP/IP is revolutionary tech, and runs the entire internet. Yet 99.9% of people have never heard of it. Literally love to hear someone talking about it lol. I made an entire massive tweet about how polkadots JAM model is similar to TCP/IP like last week.

the_fsm_butler

Yes, sort of. Nobody cares about how TCP/IP works anymore either, but they like the interesting apps built over it. We're sort of getting there, but the apps will be financial nerd shit imo. Privacy preserving markets, lending, etc

na3than

>the internet is scaled in layers: tcp/ip, email, http etc That's a wrong analogy. SMTP, HTTP and other applications are in layers above TCP and IP not for scaling but because of the advantages of abstraction.

JerryLeeDog

Just like something will replace TCP/IP from 1969? You need to study each tech that has made Bitcoin possible and why they are important. Then come back and stop embarrassing yourself ;)

JerryLeeDog

Unfortunately, I personally don't think everyone will understand why it's better. I know very smart people who don't get it. Much like people don't understand today that TCP/IP, from 1969, was better than all the other protocols for the internet layers needed.

braeunik

Oh, so now we’re moving the goalposts? First, it was ‘L2 isn’t Bitcoin,’ now it’s ‘Bitcoin doesn’t settle anything.’ Cute. Bitcoin literally settles billions of dollars daily in final, immutable transactions—far more than most financial systems. Meanwhile, fiat settlement relies on layers too (SWIFT, Fedwire, etc.), but I don’t see you crying that the dollar ‘doesn’t settle anything.’ As for DeFi and smart contracts—yeah, Bitcoin doesn’t have them natively, because it prioritizes security and decentralization. That’s why smart contract protocols like Stacks, RGB, and Taproot Assets exist. Just like TCP/IP doesn’t ‘natively’ support video calls, but here we are, using layers to build new functionality. But hey, keep coping. The fact that Bitcoin is scaling without bloating its base layer is exactly what makes it superior. You just don’t get it.

mcjohnalds45

We still use email, TCP/IP, DNS, ASCII, SQL, C, …. Great protocols live forever

masterctrlprogram-

For Google Fiber, Norton AV, Windows Defender. I had to open port 8333 for TCP/UDP on all three to get inbound connections to work. Leaving this here in case anyone else with Google Fiber and Norton AV have issues.

javier123454321

You're making the wrong comparison. It's not about comparing it to software or hardware. Its about comparing it to standards. TCP/IP is not the ultimate information transfer protocol, but it's the one we keep as the network effect ct of it is too much. Every improvement is incremental and backwards compatible, as it's more of a piece of collective infrastructure that is far too valuable to be replaced.

mecker-zausel

40 years of work is an interesting claim.  Why start at TCP/IP? Why not ethernet? Or ALOHA? Or computers? Or electronics? Physics? Maths?

LeonBBX

That is impossible to answer in an honest way. I can imagine a simple "risk free" run to 50. But IF Chainlink gets adopted to be the portal to the "real world" there is really not a limit. CCIP is the TCP/IP equivalent and imagine a company today would profit each time TCP/IP would be used --- That is insane.

Amber_Sam

>bitcoin processing bandaids Give me a solid reason why I should waste my time with someone calling a second layer a bandaid on a 7th layer of the TCP/IP?

Zealousideal-Wrap-34

Here's a good breakdown on lightning network and liquid network with are scaling solutions and why they solve this problem: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-\_MkOH--pe0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_MkOH--pe0) People compare Bitcoin base layer to Visa when it should really be compared to FedWire, which is what institutions use to perform final settlement. Bitcoin has a similar transaction limit to FedWire and is similarly used for final settlement of economically dense transactions (e.g. the net result of millions of transactions back and forth) that require strong final settlement guarantees. Visa is a layer 2 solution built on FedWire similar to what lightning and liquid are to Bitcoin base layer. Another analogy I like is TCP/IP. After it was introduced 50 years ago people called it too slow and antiquated to support the future of the internet. Other protocols existed that were faster and more efficient. Here we are 50 years later and the internet is still built on TCP/IP. I don't see Bitcoins base layer transaction limit as a problem that can't be solved by computer scientists.

zxr7

And all Bank accounts were drained too. And all https links too. And all TCP protocols toom And all SSH logins too... Meaning no money, no privacy, no security?!Nah, no way, i'm re-turning back to 2000's where it was more fun.

just_hodl_btc

My favorite analogy: it will be the protocol of money, just as TCP/IP is the protocol of the Internet.

pqrs90

I heard Jeff Booth say we aren’t even at the beginning of the internet mass adoption yet in relation to bitcoin adoption but only at the beginning of TCP/Ip stage

spx

why Enigma machine isn't secure anymore? it still works perfectly fine... still contains information, just like html or TCP, but those damn Germans just didn't wanna use it anymore for some odd reason, they must be dumb or something 

Worth_Tip_7894

"revenue" blockchains and decentralised applications don't make revenue, because they aren't businesses. No dApps should ever make a profit really, they are just a way for the L1 to create utility, which accrues to the users of the blockchain, through their use of the blockchain. Too many people trying to make a profit off of public blockchain, they don't see the final end goal is infrastructure, like TCP/IP, where there is no revenue or profit, just utility.

JanPB

They have always been a technological regress company but brilliant at marketing inferior products. Standard example was Bill Gates' keynote speech in 1990 or 1991 in which he mentioned computer networks precisely zero times. (At that time this was a new thing perceived as a bit exotic, like Bitcoin today, and the TCP/IP protocol was one of many.) Microsoft have always been followers, not leaders, but extremely good at selling.

RocMon

[it starts with 16 year olds... ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/28/australia/australia-passes-social-media-law-intl-hnk) Once in place for all countries, and not only for social media but for even connecting to the Internet... ARPANET wasn't created for free speech regardless of how the creators of TCP/IP envisioned the technology.

vitaminq

Base is great. polymarket is great. ETH is the lower layer like TCP/IP and L2s and apps are what users will use.

Qwahzi

Nano has a huge number of spam defenses now, more than most cryptocurrencies: https://docs.nano.org/protocol-design/spam-work-and-prioritization/#spam-resistance-features Exchange fees != protocol fees. TCP/IP, HTTP, SMTP, etc don't have fees built into their protocols

inyearstocome

I’d start more fundamentally. Bitcoin is a decentralized trust protocol for the internet. The first application emerges out of the design of the trust protocol as a store of value representative of the work involved in securing the network via verification consensus. Automatically preventing double-spend and ignoring false transactions/cheaters IS what provides value. Its use as a currency or investment vehicle are downstream from that. Add Lightning/Layer2 and Taproot capabilities to the mix, and bitcoin becomes the trust protocol network for which countless other currencies and transactions can ride, without requiring massive infrastructure investments for the groups (corps, governments, etc) implementing said currencies, and without requiring direct exposure to bitcoin for the masses. E.g. in addition to nations, corporations, banks, and investors holding bitcoin, the masses will end up using bitcoin behind the scenes without ever requiring them to have a private wallet or knowledge of how it works, similar to how everyone relies on TCP/IP while most have no idea what it is and how it works. Get in before the rocketship launches and enjoy the ride.

R4ID

In some cases you might be using crypto and not even know it atm. Kinda like how you might of heard/know of TCP/IP is "internet" stuff. Most people dont understand how it works at a Protocol level. Stuff like VOIP,FTP,SMTP,HTTP etc etc etc. These are all "protocols" where the user experience is "I press send and it magically works" there are some cryptos in some situations atm that are the underlying guts / protocol to how things work and users are completely unaware they are even using it.

rgnet1

Regulation would require all free democracies to uphold a ruling that it’s illegal to barter with strings of unique digits you memorize in your head. We’ll see if that level of freedom can be taken away in the western world, especially if there’s no political will to do it (how many influential private citizens and politicians already own enough that they have no interest in banning it?). As for being replaced, bitcoin is not only a unit of currency but a protocol like TCP/IP and HTTP. There’s only room for one and when they’re so well adopted already, and their simplicity is also an advantage (for security and stability), then marginally better ones never get justified as replacement. Plus, per point #1, there’s too much interest already established to NOT replace it.

Efficient_Culture569

I used to think that, but now concluded that it'll be either so far in the future that it doesn't matter, or it'll never happen. Think about the internet, TCP IP is the protocol. In 40 years nothing better came and replaced it. Its just gets improved around the protocol. There's a world around it. Same still be with bitcoin.

nomorebonks

I mean ICP and ETH both need: bare metal machines, electricity, and the underlying TCP/IP powered internet. And the Earth existing, etc. All that being equal, ICP does not need AWS. ICP hosts everything 100% onchain. ETH should really be building on top of ICP instead of AWS especially because chain key technology exists. They really don't to give ICP any attention though - every major ETH KOL will ignore ICP right now because they cannot afford to give it any attention because of what it's capable of.

nomorebonks

ICP lives on top of TCP/IP - what do you mean? I know Vitalik wasn't talking about ICP directly, but he knows ICP exists and knows that ICP is the world computer ETH wants to be. The entire MegaETH paper is basically a summary of what ICP has already accomplished.

ChineseCracker

it's a proprietary standard proposed that doesn't respect official established TCP/IP standards. Probably because they want to start selling their own routers and shit btw, Vitalik wasn't talking about ICP. ICP created a marketing site based on what Vitalik said. That's the same garbage when shitcoin marketing teams quote Elon Musk to pump their own coin

Corbimos

How is tech from the 70s supposed to run the internet in today's age? We need to upgrade TCP/IP! Buy my shitcoin!!

After-Scheme-8826

Because fiat will debase forever. Bitcoin is the unicorn, the only immaculate conception. The TCP/IP of money. It is the energy based money philosophers and economists had dreamed of for decades. It’s a money independent of nation. No country besides the US is happy with the dollar being reserve just as we wouldn’t be happy if china was the reserve money. This means most of the world will always try to undermine a country’s money but bitcoin is nationless. The reserve currency always ends up crashing throughout history. And the US dollar is on the path to destruction. It’s clear as day. Most tradfi people think china will be the next reserve (see dalio). But anyone with a brain knows people will adopt bitcoin which is free of national control over china.

moon-lambo-now

I know the basics of how TCP/IP and microchips work. But WiFi is magic, can't use that shit.

Efficient_Culture569

You don't understand a lot of things. Doubt that you know how a microchip works. Doubt that you know how TCP IP works. Or how WiFi works. However, you can use your phone and the internet. And they're very real to you. No magic there

neosBentSpoon

That's fair but you're also making a point that bitcoin, which has thus far scaled in layers just like HTTP/TCP/IP (the lightning network, cashu/Fedimint, etc.), could become more useful in the coming years. Bitcoin was designed in such a way to maximize security above all else. That's why its scripting language isn't turing complete and why block sizes are as small as they are. Changing anything about its architecture reduces its security which is not something you want for your money. > but there is plenty of room in this space for new innovation Any of that innovation that's truly useful will eventually make its way to bitcoin and that altcoin will be just another fad. The altcoin would need to have similar properties (finite supply, provably decentralized with no premine, etc.) or else it loses value over time to bitcoin and you're again better off just holding BTC.

logosolos

15 years in the grand scheme of things is nothing. The internet started in the 60's but didn't officially become useful until TCP/IP in 1983, and widespread adoption didn't happen until the late 90's. Bitcoin may have been first (and best for its own use case) but there is plenty of room in this space for new innovation.

Efficient_Culture569

You explain its usefulness. No one knows TCP IP. But everyone knows the internet. Focus on its usefulness than explaining details of how it works.

Efficient_Culture569

Said 80 because most I believe 20% should know what it is at least. Ask random 50 people to explain to you how TCP/IP works and 0 will be able to explain it to you. However, everyone knows what the internet is. The same goes for BTC. 98% phase is gone now. People do know what it is.

TooChilln

No..it's the strongest global protocol ever created. What protocol replaced TCP/IP that all internet operabiliy applications are built upon? Fair to compare any new tech that revolutionized the exchange of information, energy, and social enhancements..all usually feared, protested, and then adopted from previous methodologies. A Tesla Cyber Truck is still, in essence, an iteration of an automobile. What the earliest automobile replaced was the horse and buggy. And it was laughed at, considered a waste of money, and even attempted being outlawed as a social danger and nuscence. Iteration upon iteration. But yeah, you're probably right..it just won't be until 2300 when money is no longer necessary due to our technological and genetic, social, and conscious evolution. Make a movie about it, someone! Homosapiens will evolve into Homosantos...the Sacred Human, as our conscious awareness elevates to the point of recognizing the interconnectedes of everything, abundance is the inherent nature of cosmic consciousness...separation and scarcity, illusions that no longer serve in the coming paradigm shift. Terence McKenna envisioned all this back in the day. Sounds neat anyway... better than apocalyptic doom and gloom rooted in mythos by ancient social structures. But idk anything..in short I'm agreeing with you..but BTC and its roll that will unfold over the century is beyond current comprehension. Along with the interoperability of protocols, perhaps. The Bitcoin Protocol, its genuis developed functionality with PoW and the Network effect, L'2's already being built on top of the base layer will be a dominant force without contention in my life time. But I'm wrong 60% of the time, and just parrot what a read, absorb and able to wrap my feable mind around...which isn't much half the time. I'm not attached... whatever overtakes BTC may be alien in nature...or form of energetic exchange of HumanSantos ;-D

Tight-Comparison-493

Born before 1969. As was I. I remember the first implementation of TCP/IP in 1983 on the submarines.

denrattavagen

Courtesy of Claude: 1. The argument appears to view Bitcoin solely through the lens of its database structure, suggesting that "append-only entries" can't have inherent value. This perspective misses several key points: * The immutability of entries is actually a feature, not a bug - it ensures transaction finality and prevents double-spending * The value isn't in the entries themselves, but in the properties of the system they enable (scarcity, censorship resistance, permissionless transfers) 2. The "pyramid scheme" characterization seems to stem from: * A belief that Bitcoin has no underlying utility or "real" value * An assumption that returns only come from selling to later buyers at higher prices * A focus on price speculation rather than utility as a monetary network However, this critique overlooks several important aspects: * Bitcoin functions as a monetary protocol, similar to how TCP/IP is a data transfer protocol * The append-only nature enables key properties like decentralized consensus and immutability * Unlike a pyramid scheme, Bitcoin: * Has no central operator * Makes no promises of returns * Provides actual utility (borderless value transfer, censorship resistance) * Can be used without needing new participants to join While there's certainly speculative activity in Bitcoin markets, characterizing the entire system as "fundamentally stupid" because it uses an append-only database structure misunderstands both the purpose of that structure and the broader utility of the network. The critique seems to conflate the technical implementation (append-only database) with the economic model, when these are distinct aspects that work together to create Bitcoin's unique properties.

1mc666

Don't forget "the TCP/IP of blockchain"

1mc666

I love the "digital oil" or "TCP/IP of blockchain" value proposition of ETH which makes me keep hoping it succeeds but there's so many question marks with its monetary policy and promises to be deflationary, not to mention the L2s taking away cash flow. They have to answer those questions AND fend off the competition. Just feels like a tall task.

greyacademy

I wouldn't doubt that there are some early adopters out there who truly viewed it as "the TCP/IP of money" from the beginning, and were more concerned about owning a certain percentage of the network than being able to convert it to dollars, especially if they were already financially secure.

Blueberry314E-2

My honest to goodness opinion as someone who has worked at low level in banking and high level in tech, and who has been in the crypto space for \~8 years, is that, one day, everyone will use blockchains daily - but most people won't notice. Similarly to how people use routers and switches and TCP/IP every day without noticing. The companies selling the services built on top of crypto will do incredibly well. The people invested in the right projects and companies will continue to do well. The user will benefit from slightly reduced fees/settlement times/access to financial services/etc. But the average person won't be able to explain what Ethereum is, for example. "Crypto" as we know it will be abstracted away from the end-user completely.

Drizznarte

Web 3 doesn't exist yet! It like calling the Ukraine war world war 3 . The term was adopted by companies as marketing tool. Web 3 could be integrated AI , decentralised internet , hardware VPN , internet if things , integration of Blockchain tech and many other things. We won't know untill after it happens it's not something you can plan. Don't believe the hype. If web3 was about owning your digital property, we are no where near that reality. Web 3 will and only be a fundermenally change in use of protocols such as http, TCP/IP , ppp , FTP. The change is a base change in protocol use and hasn't happened yet.

kopeboy_

Nano (XNO) is the best currency imho. Like any scientific base unit, it is fixed, well defined and durable: a perfect denominator. As any open & popular protocol, it doesn’t have fees in the protocol (but you are free to charge for services on top, like ISP do on TCP/IP). As a convenient medium of exchange it has instant transfers (sub-second finality) all over the word and free non-custodial accounts. Like all permissionless blockchain networks, it wants to be decentralized, but ensures that long-term by completely removing inflationary rewards and any intrinsic incentive. Keep up the good work! The market will realize the goodness someday. 💪🏻💙 nano_3qx5cz95xxpd5wsm9imggxpuxhpf5oupx14456ms5f5hn9qhyexiszfhshfb (you can see from any explorer, like spynano.org, nanexplorer.com, blocklattice.io, nanobrowse.com, that I already hold XNO. This is NFA, please DYOR 🙏🏻)

Blockchainauditor

How do you mean? We have a single unified Internet due to TCP/IP; BTC represents 53% of the current market cap but a fraction by dollar or sheer number of transactions daily.

JerryLeeDog

Are you familiar with the protocol wars? There was a handful of protocols being considered for the internet. TCP/IP won. Just like there are still a bunch of cryptos but the market has already given Bitcoin the network affect required to be digital money. It's already the chosen protocol just like TCP/IP was, and still is, decades later.

Eggs-Benny

What do you mean by "TCP/IP is already the protocol"?

JerryLeeDog

TCP/IP is already the protocol Bitcoin already won. The next phase will be this space differentiating Bitcoin and "crypto"

TomasMSM

The base protocol is stable, reliable and it works. It does exactly what it should do: move value at the speed of light in a permissionless fashion from and to any point on Earth. Messing with the base layer is idiotic and stupid. Specially at this point in time where there is more than a trillion dollars in value put into the network. And then there are unintended consequences that everybody always seems to forget when the get all hyped about adding new features to the base layer. Would you go and mess around with the base protocol of the internet - TCP/IP? Obviously not. There are other layers on top of that where new features are added. We don’t need to change Bitcoin. We just need to build on top of it. Michael Saylor speaks about this at length here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwmyaxpJwoc

thambassador

Pruned nodes only Outbound connections? I'm running Bitcoin Core in Windows and it's pruned. I opened port 8333 from my router. I checked in Terminal if it's open by using `netstat -an` and I see it's `TCP 0.0.0.0:8333 0.0.0.0:0 LISTENING` Although I can't see it in [bitnodes.io](http://bitnodes.io) when I input my public IP. I opened the Peers tab in Bitcoin Core and the direction for all my peers is Outbound.

memreleek

What’s this one protocol the internet runs on ? TCP/IP right? That’s like similar to udp and bgp but we only need the tcp one right. Oh I see. You didn’t realize there was more than one protocol in existence.

Business_Smile

Nostr doesn't replace the whole TCP IP based internet tho. I known it technically could but the network effect drivers are not strong enough 

MiguelLancaster

still runs on TCP/IP protocol

Bhob13

I often consider bitcoin a protocol like TCP/IP, the protocol that runs the internet which was invented in 1973/74. However not many people had adopted the use of it until 20yrs later when email started to invade the business and education worlds. Bitcoin turned 15 this year… we’re still early and adoption will come as more and more apps get created using the bitcoin protocol as a settlement layer.

Tasty_Action5073

It’s a game changer. It’s like asking what’s the benefit of TCP/IP or Bitcoin. It allows anyone to develop whatever social experience they want, that is cohesive and interoperable between all other experiences being developed, breaking the internet silos we ended up creating. The way it breaks the silo is instead of your Reddit account being custodied by Reddit, and you can’t move from Reddit to YouTube as person (you need to have multiple identities for each). We finally custody our identies on the internet. Because you can prove that you posted/said/shared/liked something by signing these with your secret key. Nothing on the internet works like this now, and nostr is rebuilding every internet experience that required an account with this concept. And since it’s an open protocol no one can tell you what to build and what not to build or how to build it. It’s truly remarkable.

DreadPirateButthurts

This might seem like a snarky answer but I'm being totally genuine here, that's a bit like asking what is the purpose of something which you could call a protocol, such as TCP/IP (basis of internet), or SMTP (email), or a bicameral legislature, or even the English language. All those things have countless different uses. When the Internet was really early days people also asked "what is this even for?" So I wouldn't say Bitcoin has a single use or purpose, but it depends on the entity that's using it and what their goals and problems are. I'll give you a few random use cases here: If you live in a place with extreme inflation like Argentina in recent years or Venezuela, Bitcoin is going to be extremely useful for you to store your value even in the short term. If you live in a place with a currency that is being debased at a more "normal" rate, it will still be very useful as a store of value, though your time horizon needs to be longer as you've noted Bitcoin is still volatile. For a society, Bitcoin can provide utility by introducing a "measuring stick" which keeps the government more accountable for that reckless currency debasement. It can provide an alternative to using homes as investment vehicles which has caused a severe housing affordability crisis in much of the world. If you're fleeing a warzone it's a pretty damn good method for retaining some property and wealth and not getting your shit stolen by men with guns. If you're looking to build wealth rather than just protect or maintain it, Bitcoin can be used as a speculative investment. Likely a smart one, for now, as this network is growing rapidly and shows zero signs of slowing down while the overall adoption is still a small % of people (you're still early). I'm tempted to go on but this is getting kinda long. TLDR thinking about Bitcoin as an agreed upon protocol (because it is one) will help you grok it's utility. Do you have any Bitcoin now? If not, I suggest you buy a little. Whatever is a little for you, maybe $100 USD, the number doesn't really matter just that you have some. You're clearly already interested but having a little BTC will pique your curiosity even further, and I suspect you'll naturally start paying closer attention to it and learning more about it. That's kinda how it went for me, and I think that's a common story. Enjoy that book, I bet you'll like it, even if you ultimately decide BTC isn't for you!

MinimalGravitas

Also from your comment, I don't think you know what the terms 'greater fool', 'TCP/IP' or 'Ponzi' mean...

Efficient_Culture569

You don't need to explain the mechanics of it. Just the benefits. Imagines trying to explain TCP/IP to your peers... But they all understand the benefits of using the internet. The same goes with technology, i don't know how exactly it all works, but I understand the benefits and what it enables. Focus on that part.

JerryLeeDog

Ready for tough love? Alt coins lose value against Bitcoin perpetually. In a few years they will be down even more against Bitcoin. They will all basically go to zero as new alts are made by companies looking to profit, then those will pump and then the hype will wear off, rinse repeat. Bitcoin is the only truly decentralized commodity. It's already TCP/IP You can get "lucky" with an alt or 2 that outperforms it, but after years in this space you will realize there is no reason to try.