LSP

fverdeja

To be fair, in the points of KYC and Bisq2 you are completely right, but Robosats works on Lightning, the user needs to understand how to use a Lightning Wallet, and that, in case they are using an LSP dependant wallet such as Breez or Phoenix they will need to pay the miner fee anyways. About the Arch Linux thing, my example was meant to be that you can't expect a person who has never bought Bitcoin to even care about KYC, they just want to buy Bitcoin, then they will want to buy P2P and all of that, so you'd be better recommending a low kyc exchange, recommending Bisq or Robosats would be like saying "You might want to try Arch Linux at first because it's fairly easy once you set it all up, all you have to do is back up you data in a external SSD, print the wiki's 2K pages and read through them, I won't recommend you to use Ubuntu because Canonical is a terrible company and nobody likes Snaps, I could recommend Fedora which simply works, but not setting your whole systen by yourself isn't Linux user enough so you won't get the full experience, so better stick to Arch, and then, when you feel more confident you can move to Gentoo".

safehodl

It already is user-friendly if you have enough sats to open a channel with an LSP. However, it will not scale to >1B people so it is a problem still being researched through things like covenants, Ark, and BitVM. In the end, I suspect many people will prefer custodians regardless which is where many distributed federations might be the best option such as Liquid or Fedimint.

safehodl

Muun does everything through on-chain swaps between BTC and LN. So yes, every transaction incurs an on-chain fee unless they recently changed it. I suppose the advantage is they don't need to operate as an LSP. https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/116171/muun-wallet-all-funds-stored-on-chain

jamesblacklock

Phoenix isn't really fully self-custodial. You rely on the LSP's watchtower to secure your funds. If they turned that off, you could have all your money stolen.

nerdiestnerdballer

\#1 i can, \#2 existing channels, \#3 self custodial lightning service providers \#3 choosing to make the trade off the trade off using a custodial LSP \#4 liquid bitcoin.

AdCultural2889

Yes.  When using an LSP ( Lightning service provider)  you should read their frequently asked questions, as there are tradeoffs and additional fees.  Phoenix Works great for walking around money.   I wouldn't keep serious capital on it.

jfhsdkjfhsdkjfhsdkjf

I opened a channel with their new LSP. The rate of failure of payments was too high for me. Maybe this will improve with time as their node gets larger and more well connected/optimized. IMO, any premium ACINQ is charging is well worth it for a product that works.

MachaMacMorrigan

Dunno how to fix your firts point. I THINK i would leave it to the LSP aggregator here on Earth to solve that one. Current best settlement times for TradFi are (*I think*) are T+2 days. If we can live with that, then we should be OK. Also, given that Lightning channels are pre-funded, is double-spend really an issue?

fverdeja

I know about that, I didn't try to respond to the OP but to this comment per se. Phoenix, Zeus and Breez (specially Breez) make LN a no-brainer, since the user does not need to manage anything, just their keys. What I meant is that LN doesn't scale in the users department, it's not economically viable to start a new noncustodial wallet (not node) when fees are too high unless an LSP subsidizes part of the miner fees. LN is superior to anything we've seen before in the TPS department ( [Minute 16:46 of my presentation on why one should run a node](https://youtu.be/jwZHF1jN3kw?si=FtP0LMLGyAS3-i5V) ) but that doesn't mean it can scale to millions of users, that's why we need something like LNHANCE so we can scale Bitcoin and Lightning not just vertically but also horizontally, doesn't matter how easy it's to set up a wallet if it's impossible to pay for the setup in the first place.

Playful_Stand6721

Exchanges don’t have ‘hard’ limits and rules with regard to coinjoins and mixers. I think it’s case by case. However without taking on and on… bitcoin was designed to be used peer to peer. Not ‘allowing’ coinjoins and peer to peer usage defeats the entire foundation of bitcoin. If you have a garage sale… if you have a side hustle, if you pick up extra work or you have a small business… And you take bitcoin as payment, then what do you do then? If you want to protect certain privacy, or you want the coins to be ‘clean’ then you probably should coinjoin. Furthermore, what if you accept coins on lightening? All there is is a transaction to open a channel using a LSP… and then another to close the channel. If you pay for inbound liquidity then sure there is a ‘splice in’ transaction from the LSP for that. But the inbound liquidity is totally non kyc at that point… you can receive inbound liquidity payments for goods and services (a garage sale for example) without an on chain transaction so there are few if any records of where those satoshis came from. I mean there is some maybe for the LSP… but there isn’t any as far as the exchange is concerned. So how can KYC be required? I think this mandate for all KYC for all exchanges is a huge government overreach - bitcoin needs to be peer to peer non kyc it always will be and continues to be. If the government has its way (ie Elizabeth warren) bitcoin would be banned and there would be no bitcoin at all. No competition to government monetary policy, expansion, and control period

Raphae1

I'd run an Umbrel node and install a BTCPay server. You need some LSP liquidity service provide that opens channels to your node for inbound liquidity. If you want to receive money on your phone, you can buy an inbound liquidity bucket with the new phoenix wallet version.

po00on

it makes little to no difference. in fact it may end up costing you more. Lightning is heavily dependent on layer 1 transactions, for the purpose of opening, rebalancing/splicing & closing channels. Plus, if you want to atomic swap between layers, you'll still need to pay a mining fee, and typically also a platform fee, for coordinating the service. Unless you're comfortable holding your funds in a hot wallet, on LN, on with an LSP/custodian, Lightning does not solve this issue.

Tasty_Action5073

Phoenix, Zeus, Green. Are all in between solutions with LSP.

fverdeja

Ok, now I get you, knowing what you were looking for here are some links that you might find interesting then (these are the things I remember from the top of my head about this year, but there are way more things going on than just these): 1. First of all you have the Kingdom of Bhutan mining Bitcoin on the ruins of its failed "education city", the country has been trying to generate extra money, and Bitcoin mining has helped it, it's even been sustainable at doing so. 2. KPMG has completely changed its speech on Bitcoin, it's now ESG friendly and it might push the adoption of renewable energy sources, when everyone thought that Bitcoin might be boiling oceans, now the bankers think it might help save the world, how ironic. 3. Covenants: The (must surely) next addition to Bitcoin's programmability in form of a softfork (and upgrade to the system that's backwards compatible), they might help scale Bitcoin in new ways, adding not only verticality, but also horizonatlity, with Covenants we will be able to do channel factories on LN, shared UTXOs, Vaults, and a long list of etcs... Effectively making self custody easier and cheaper and other layers more scalable, over all making Bitcoin better without adding the code complexities and security risks of Turing Complete Smart Contracts to Bitcoin. 4. BitVM: a virtual machine that lets anyone run any program on Bitcoin (waiting for DOOM on Bitcoin), it's most surely use case would be running drivechains (BIP 300 and BIP 301) without having to do a soft-fork, basically, it's the new gold standard for 2 way pegs and merge mining, helping scale Bitcoin horizontally (sidechains). 5. Breez SDK: The developers of the Breez wallet have been developing the Breez SDK, which basically lets anyone be an LSP (Lightning Service Provider) in a self-custodial manner, if you've ever used Breez, you already know what kind of experience they are trying to bring to Lightning, just send sats and you'll own them, they'll do the heavy lifting. Sources: [Bhutan Built A Bitcoin Mine On The Site Of Its Failed Education City](https://www.forbes.com/sites/iainmartin/2023/11/22/bhutan-secret-bitcoin-mine-locations/?sh=7838b94b4a4e) [KPMG - Bitcoin’s role in the ESG imperative](https://kpmg.com/us/en/articles/2023/bitcoin-role-esg-imperative.html) [OP_CHECKTEMPLATEVERIFY](https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/op_checktemplateverify/) [BIP: 119](https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0119.mediawiki) [BitVM: Compute anything in Bitcoin](https://bitvm.org/) [8-bit CPU for BitVM](https://www.nobsbitcoin.com/8bit-cpu-for-bitvm/) [Lightning for Everyone in Any App: Lightning as a Service via the Breez SDK](https://medium.com/breez-technology/lightning-for-everyone-in-any-app-lightning-as-a-service-via-the-breez-sdk-41d899057a1d) P.S: Have you thought of getting your genius child a psychological test? Sounds like it might be High Functioning Autism or even Asperger's, might be better to know now that it's young (you made it sound like so) than later on in its life.

anon-187101

yeah, but you can re-use that same channel with other vendors that Phoenix's LSP is connected to just make sure you add enough liquidity into the channel to make the on-chain tx fee worth it

seanthenry

So you dont need to run a LN node, manage channel balances, and keep it on line constantly? If you work with a LSP the channels funding/balancing can be made easier. Eventually there will be better handling of channel states so the node will not need to be up full time. Still all that seems a bit more than just run an app. BTW im all for running all services locally and I do so at home.

nerd2ninja

Okay got it. So realistically, you gotta meet people where they're at, so you probably want to launch the app with your typical payment flow that buys sats on the backend to pay and has the option (even discounted option) to pay with sats straight. The perception you'd be looking to create is kinda like how users get advertised to buy gems, twitch bits, or other forms of in store credit in native applications, but the reality is, its just Bitcoin. From there you could do like "Try our sister apps" where they can spend these sats in other apps and its a natural movement down a rabbit hold from there. One idea I don't think I've seen expanded upon, is the idea of like "Lightning network based affiliate marketing". So if users are starting on your app and you provide an LSP, then they feel comfortable with your UX to spend on other apps allowing you to collect routing fees making advertising services unrelated to your business profitable. Like I said just an idea, I haven't seen it in practice so.

albenstein

So your argument is that since consumer payments will mostly be lightning, and lightning needs LSP middlemen, that we're better off with fiat because the dozens of middlemen in fiat system are somehow better? Middlemen aren't required to handle multisigs, what do you mean by that? Even if main chain block size increased 100X, we'd still need layer twos like Lightning, as it still would not be enough for all transactions. I agree with you that it's not perfect, but Bitcoin is still better than anything else we have. Ah, I just realized that this was maybe your point, that this is the best reason it might be a bubble, even if it's not a sufficient reason. 🤦

po00on

>Sure, in theory, you can always “just” close the channel if your channel partner begins to misbehave. You will then presumably redirect those funds to a new channel with what you hope will be a better-behaved channel partner. The first problem with this remedy is that high on-chain fees may make exercising it cost prohibitive. This is yet another case where the base layer transaction cost must be passed on to the customer (unless the LSP has some alternative means of generating revenue). Further emphasising the point that LN may not be the silver bullet that it's been made out to be, in terms of scaling userbase in a non custodial fashion. Lets hope further innovation proves this wrong.

mnkbstard

>You mean the fees to move funds from onchain to LN and vice versa? no. i mean using mobile nodes where channel management is done in background. of course funding channel will come with on-chain costs, and this in indeed my concern: it makes sense to open a properly funded channel instead of small 400k channels that will need refunding in a day. i already did some tests with kraken LN withdrawals too, and it's great indeed. but if i remember correctly they require a minimum funding of 5M sats to open a channel. didn't know about Dunder LSP, i'll check this out thanks a lot for taking the time to answer, i would have liked to be more precise and go deeper in the matter but i got little spare time today (i'm at work)

Plus-Ad4019

>yes i'm aware of this possibility, but fees has been a bit unpredicatble You mean the fees to move funds from onchain to LN and vice versa? You can fund your LN wallet directly from an exchange that supports it (e.g. Kraken). For the other way around, you can use an exchange such as fixedfloat that charges you 0.5%: you send BTC on LN, they send it to the on-chain address you provide. >i still don't feel comfortable to put enough funds in a hot wallet to fund channels Well, LN is supposed to be used for small payments and it requires you to be online anyway, so using a hot wallet is not avoidable. But you don't need to put large amounts to fund a channel with good capacity, you just need to use a liquidity provider service. For instance, you can open a channel with Dunder LSP: you send any amount of sats up to 400k sats using a LN invoice (for instance from an exchange) and get a channel with a 400k sats total capacity: so, say that you send 50k sats to open the channel, you can send out up to 50k from it (outbound liquidity), and receive up to 350k (inbound liquidity). This is entirely non-custodial.

nerd2ninja

Breez. Breez is good. For 1. Its a real lightning wallet lol (muun does an on-chain transaction to do an LN swap or Bitcoin to lightning exchange if that helps you think about what its doing), but for 2. it uses the LSP model and its got point of sale esk features integrated within it. [https://breez.technology/](https://breez.technology/)

bitcoin_barry

There are the following fees: 1. Opening a channel A lightning wallet is secured by the blockchain, it isn't a trust based system like custodial wallets, but this means that the funds need to be placed into a multi-sig bitcoin address where you and your peer (typically the company that made the wallet you're using) have collaborative control of the funds, but neither one of you can rug the other. This costs a transaction fee. On top of this, a lightning wallet is not very fun when all you can do is spend from it. If only you put money into this channel, then you own all the money in the channel at first, meaning you can only spend the funds, not receive. The way you get to receive, is if the channel has excess funds that you don't own, then that excess can be allocated to you as you get paid. Wallet providers (often called LSPs) will allocate some of their capital to the channel so that you can start receiving funds straight away, and for that, they charge a fee too. They usually bundle the two fees together so you may have a minimum initial deposit, and a high (ish) fee to get started. Note, that assuming the LSP allocates around 100 bucks to your channel, you can receive UP TO 100 bucks, but after that, the LSP typically has to create a new channel with you to allocate more income capacity to your lightning wallet which typically costs the same getting started fee. Phoenix wallet actually recently started using a new technology that allows them to keep fees low when you need more capacity, so they actually charge low fees for opening a wallet, but charge a relatively high fee (0.4%) when making payments in order to cover costs. 2. Making a payment These are usually sub penny, for larger payments they may go as high as a few pennies (thinking in GBP here btw). You don't really tend to use it for more than a few hundred bucks, if you reached £1k, you're probably going to be concerned about the fee it suggests. I recently paid £160 and paid £0.65 in fees and that is with a wallet that charges higher fees than others. It typically charges 0.4% on all transactions, and that is Phoenix wallet btw. (https://phoenix.acinq.co/) A traditional bitcoin transaction using the base layer would cost around £1, maybe 50p if you are patient for any amount, so you can see where each of these technologies fit today. A lightning wallet like Phoenix also allows you to pay on-chain btw, so its kind of win win. Again, if you use another wallet, they will flip the fee structure, you'll pay more for the initial deposit and then periodically you'll pay more as you use the wallet, but most of your transactions will be super low, like maybe even 0.01 - 0.05% (this used to be what Phoenix would charge me before I upgraded to their new system). TLDR; I kind of went deep into what the fees are for, but if you don't care, lightning works pretty well today and is cheap enough to not care about fees.

nerd2ninja

Well, its likely you're being outbid in the fee market. This is one place you can see the current fee rate for transactions: [https://mempool.space/](https://mempool.space/) (cool side note, if you run your own node, you can run this service over your own computer rather than reaching out to this website and get the same information) If you look up your TXID you can see the fee rate you've bid and you can compare that against the fee rate that's getting included in blocks. You could then use RBF (or Full RBF if neccesary) to increase your fee rate bid. Its good to use these on-chain transactions to establish lightning network connections (which you can do through an LSP for convenience such Pheonix, Breez, even Blixt has an LSP or be a litte more self managey and use LNBig for inbound and use direct connections to who you want to pay). This way, you only worry about managing your channel rather than worrying about on-chain fee rates at any given moment.

BoomLazerbeamed

Don’t worry. The ERC20 creator will soon save the day with LSP standards.

BoomLazerbeamed

Don’t worry. Fabian will soon save the day with the new LSP standards.

ToshiSat

Anyone with experience with the Sushi LP for MOON/ETH ? I have staked LSP, and some rewards ready to be claimed. When I try to claim them, the transaction fails with the message "Error: (Awaiting internal transactions for reason)" Any idea what it means ? I have enough ETH for gas in my wallet, on arb nova

nerd2ninja

Blixt is an LND node for mobile. They have an LSP or you can self manage channels Pheonix and breez are other options. Now, these are private channels. If you're looking to build a routing node (a very competitive business most people lose money on), check out minibolt: [https://v2.minibolt.info/home/readme](https://v2.minibolt.info/home/readme)

poyoso

Stellar ecosystem is being slept on hard. Im stacking LSP Lumenswap.

nerd2ninja

Wallet of Satoshi is a bank Anyway with that out of the way, Pheonix is changing their model soon. [https://acinq.co/blog/phoenix-splicing-update](https://acinq.co/blog/phoenix-splicing-update) So instead of 3k sats to open a channel, you'll just pay on-chain fees and then their 0.4% routing fee, which I'm seeing people complain about already. You already mentioned Breez so I'll skip over that, but another option is blixt wallet. I haven't used the Blixt LSP so I don't know what that experience is like, but is has a lot of advanced options and you can connect to whatever lightning node you want with it so its pretty neat.

nerd2ninja

I get that sentiment. My concern was with people thinking I'm more important than what I am tho lol. But like also, man shouldn't we be celebrating when people do shit the right way? I made that post the way that I did because there are so so so many Bitcoin bank users right now. Worst part is the bank is calling itself a wallet. I'm talking about "wallet of satoshi". They tell me its okay to use a bank for small amounts because if it gets stolen the amount is too small to care, but theft isn't the only failure of custodians. Rehypothecation makes the situation 10x worse than that. In any case, I am already starting to see complaints about Pheonix's 0.4% routing fee. Breez is another wallet that does things the right way. They don't have splicing from what I've seen and they close your channels if you don't use them after 30 days, but if you do use lightning at least once a month, it is another good option that's out there. Blixt also does pretty well. Its basically a mobile LND node. You can connect to any node with it. They have their own LSP too.

strength_in_numbers_

You can do so with certain LSPs. Some (Boltz, Loop, etc) will allow you to open a LN channel to them and send your sats to their node. In return, they will send you back the sats (minus fees) to an L1 address you provide. This breaks the KYC trail. The LSP will have a record of both your LN and onchain transaction though. You're trusting them to not keep or divulge those records to your attackers. A better way would be to open three (the more the merrier) LN channels to three different LN nodes. Call these channels A, B and C. Have other nodes open three LN channels to your LN node. Call these channels D, E, F. Route your sats out through A, B, C and back into D, E, F. Once all your sats are in D, E, F, close those channels to have your new sats transferred to new L1 addresses. Pure anonymity. Doing coinjoins is another way of anonymizing your sats, but I'm assuming you wish to use LN here.

nerd2ninja

Sure. There's a more and more common argument these days that different amounts of money for different kinds of use cases, require different security models. [https://armantheparman.com/bitcoin-storage-get-better/](https://armantheparman.com/bitcoin-storage-get-better/) Spending wallet vs savings vault vs multi-millionaire vs whatever other kind of use case you can imagine. In fact, speaking to the particular strategy you mention, I'd love for an exchange to open a channel to me and then I could over time buy the full capacity of the channel, then close or swap to cold storage. The easiest way to do this, would be to use either Pheonix or Breez wallet. Now Pheonix has higher fees, but they don't close the channel on you. Breez has lower fees but they close the channel on you after 30 days. Assuming a DCA use case, I'll assume you want Breez here since you'll constantly use the channel and therefore keep your LSP happy therefore keeping the channel open. So you want to deposit a large amount all at once into Breez wallet to get a large channel size. Then you'd swap out. [https://fixedfloat.com/](https://fixedfloat.com/) fixed float is one example of a swap service, but there are others. Point is, when you're ready to dump to cold storage, you swap LN to on-chain using this service. This isn't the only way to accomplish this goal however. [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) Blixt is a lightning wallet that allows you to choose what node you want to open a channel with. If you can open a channel directly with an exchange, that's great! With no nodes in between, you won't pay any routing fees, because you aren't routing, you're just updating your channel state directly with who you're doing business with. This gives you the power to close the channel into cold storage OR use a swap service OR deposit to the exchange then withdraw on-chain all at once. So all in all, you have lots of options with this idea. Go ahead and select what works best for you.

nerd2ninja

Pheonix wallet and Breez wallet are not custodial. Even Blixt has an LSP you can use. Running your own lightning node without the scripted channel management though does empower you. It also doesn't have to be lnd. Blixt is an lnd node, but Pheonix uses eclair and c-lightning is another one you could use if you felt so inclined.

nerd2ninja

Dude....I think you just don't know, but yeah there's a lot of average joes out there balancing lightning channels and routing payments and things. [https://explorer.acinq.co/](https://explorer.acinq.co/) A lot of big names on that list, but a lot of these people are just regular people and a lot of nodes are not even on this map. They try to get their liquidity in between these popular nodes that don't know to connect to each other. With all that said, you don't have to do this. As an average user just use a "private channel" [https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/private-lightning-nodes](https://darthcoin.substack.com/p/private-lightning-nodes) Which is basically where you don't route at all and you happily connect to a node that is incentivized with routing fees to use their liquidity to service you. Blixt is a great wallet for this It gets even more simple than that though. Just use an LSP's wallet and you don't have to think about who to connect to and all of these things. Just use phoenix or breez or even blixt has their own LSP.

jack_murray

I believe all of the 10 companies I have previously worked for have the expertise to set up and maintain their own lightning nodes. It is definitely within their capabilities to manage a node in-house. If it becomes commonplace for employers to run lightning nodes, I can easily see it becoming commonplace for users to have only one channel, to their employer. But I guess users will need an LSP as you have described.

comit-network

I guess it depends on your definition of using your coins. You can sent coins from one address to another. You can hodl your coins without giving up custody. But when it comes to for example stabilizing your Bitcoin against another asset you have to hand over custody to another party - in most cases an exchange. That sucks. An example: If you get your salary in Bitcoin you will likely still have expenses in your local currency. Let's say you are using USD for the sake of it. The price of Bitcoin fluctuates against USD - wouldn't it be great if you could make sure to have 2000 USD worth of Bitcoin per month stay stable in USD without giving up custody? One of the features we are working on is a synthetic stablecoin, that enables you to do exactly that - in a Lightning channel. And if we (being an LSP) ever vanish for whatever reason you can just go on chain and get your sats back. Other use-cases include trading. There are quite some people that don't like trading use cases in the Bitcoin community - but self-custodial trading is simpler to set up and manage than a synthetic stablecoin because in trading you have a two-sided market. If you wanna know more: We just published a [blogpost that explains self-custodial trading settlement](https://10101.substack.com/p/self-custodial-trade-settlement) in our app MVP. Our software implements [Discreet Log Contracts](https://bitcoinops.org/en/topics/discreet-log-contracts/) protocols. If you are interested how the protocol works in more detail you can checkout [this blogpost](https://medium.com/crypto-garage/dlc-on-lightning-cb5d191f6e64), we are working together with Thibaut from Crypto Garage on the development of [rust-dlc](https://github.com/get10101/rust-dlc/) on top of [rust-lightning](https://github.com/lightningdevkit/rust-lightning/) (part of LDK). rust-dlc is what enables the self-custodial setup. The [10101 code](https://github.com/get10101/10101/) is completely open source and available on GitHub - we strongly encourage to have a look! Be aware that this is still early stage software - we are currently having a closed beta to iron out bugs and make sure the protocols and application logic around them are implemented in a robust and resilient way before we will open up for more user and enable more use-cases.

extrastone

What is LSP?

KAX1107

>I just want some no-KYC channels with friends so that we can expand outwards. Lightning is fully private by default [OBW](https://github.com/nbd-wtf/obw) might be the best option for what you're asking. It offers great flexibility and in case you need it, it also has a hosted channels option (custodial) [Blixt](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) is also great but slightly more of a learning curve. You and your friends can share a single lnd hub between you Phoenix and Breez are self-custodial LSP wallets

CelestialTrace

> You rely on a company (miner) staying in business for on-chain too, then. No, it's not even comparable. On-chain, you don't rely on any *specific* miner. It is enough for there to be miners at all. When using an LSP on lightning, such as with breez or phoenix/acinq, you rely on that specific LSP staying in business. If they stop offering the service (or radically change their terms/etc), then you have to force-close, pay mining fees, and have your coins encumbered by a timelock (i.e. not able to use them) for 1 week+. In general, you rely on the LSP to do things for you, and typically you need to put some trust in the LSP.

PseudonymousPlatypus

Breez is a nonstarter. Didn't get far with it before it was a nope. Phoenix definitely looks much better than most I've tested. Thanks for sharing. It seems very smooth, but it also seems that the wallet does use a third-party (ACINQ) LN Service Provider, and they use trampolining. There are trust issues in the design as I'm reading about how it's set up. Even unfortunate reliance on ACINQ in the backup situation. I'm mainly concerned with how the wallet relies on ACINQ for routing and channel funding and state backup. I'm starting to feel that there is no way to use Lightning in a totally trustless and private way. The LSP sees destination and amount. Which is basically everything. They trampoline the payments for you. There's no way to manually backup and restore your Lightning funds/node without the cooperation of ACINQ, either. My inability to find a proper wallet is making me think that Lightning really is very dependent on semi-centralized third parties in order for the whole system to even have a chance at operating even remotely well. That's disappointing.

PseudonymousPlatypus

This definitely looks much better than most I've tested. Thanks for sharing, as I've been digging into it. It's very smooth, but it seems that the wallet does use a third-party (ACINQ) LN Service Provider, and they use trampolining. There are also trust issues in the design as I'm reading about how it's set up. Even reliance in the backup situation. I'm mainly concerned with how the wallet relies on ACINQ for routing and channel funding and state backup. I'm starting to feel that there is no way to use Lightning in a totally trustless and private way. The LSP sees destination and amount. Which is basically everything. They trampoline the payments for you. There's no way to manually backup and restore your Lightning funds/node without the cooperation of ACINQ, either. My inability to find a proper wallet is making me think that Lightning is just that dependent on semi-centralized third parties in order for the whole system to even have a chance at operating even remotely well. That's disappointing.

KAX1107

Alby (browser) or Zeus (mobile) for this Zeus is also launching an LSP similar to Breez

KAX1107

The way I minimize on-chain footprint is by having 95% in savings (cold storage) and 5% in checking account (lightning). There are many ways you can make your overall interaction with bitcoin very profitable. If you're minded to help the network and get paid for it, you could run a bitcoin and lightning node (quite inexpensive to do) and even a home miner quite profitably if you have use for heating. I've been [getting paid to heat my home](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FenduPzXkAAcatX?format=jpg&name=4096x4096) since 2019. As a routing node, you earn fees and with [open LSP models](https://medium.com/breez-technology/the-breez-open-lsp-model-scaling-lightning-by-sharing-roi-with-3rd-party-lsps-e2ef6e31562e), services like [Voltage](https://voltage.cloud/) and [Torq](https://ln.capital/#getstarted) which offer automated AI fee management and channel rebalancing, you don't even need much technical knowledge to run a routing node. [This](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zvj4xp/lighting_statistics_of_my_routing_node_6_months/) is an average routing node. [This guy](https://twitter.com/RandomJoeT/status/1629574457516802048) started with less than 25 million sats and made 13 million sats from routing fees in 16 months.

NonTokeableFungin

Agree with what you’ve said there. Now - Lightning; do you foresee many people running their own Node ? My understanding : that’s the only way to use LN in a trustless, or self-custody way. Would you agree ? Before looking at potential capacity on LN due to all the bottleneck issues ( Hub & spoke / Inbound-, Outbound- Liquidity / Liveness, etc) If we use, say, Strike as an LSP, then we’re really depositing money in Prime Trust bank. [Strike Custody](https://beta.strike.me/faq/bitcoincustody/)

NonTokeableFungin

Although - even thinking about using Lightning - that wouldn’t really work either. To onboard a new user. You would need to already own some BTC, to give it to a LSP.

KAX1107

>why do we need to run a Lightning node You can run a private node on your phone with automated channel management (like Breez and Phoenix). You can also run a public routing node like 18k other public nodes and earn sats from routing fees. There are now [open LSP models](https://medium.com/breez-technology/the-breez-open-lsp-model-scaling-lightning-by-sharing-roi-with-3rd-party-lsps-e2ef6e31562e). [This](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zvj4xp/lighting_statistics_of_my_routing_node_6_months/) is an average routing node. [This guy](https://twitter.com/RandomJoeT/status/1629574457516802048) started out with less than 25 million sats and earned 13 million sats in a period of about 16 months from routing fees. Lightning is not a separate network, despite the moniker. It's a [graph](https://lnrouter.app/graph) of interconnected multisig channels native to bitcoin protocol that functions as an abstracted private, peer-to-peer payments protocol. Think of it as HTTP to TCP/IP. Why was it needed? Same reason internet does not have a monolithic architecture and needed layered protocols. Think about [money and networking from first principles](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10j7k8r/hot_dang_lightning_is_a_freaking_beast/j5j4yqc/) and it'll be easy to understand Lightning. Satoshi understood the limitations of monolithic design as well and discussed about layered protocols even before Bitcoin was launched. So did Nick Szabo and another person the average bitcoiner will not know today, that is James A. Donald. Donald was among the first people to critique Satoshi’s white paper and design. He argued with Satoshi about scaling and detailed that he believed Bitcoin needed a layer of account. “We will need a layer of account money on top of the bitcoins, supporting transactions of a hundred-thousandth the size of the smallest coin, and to support anonymity, Chaumian money on top of the account money,” [Donald wrote](https://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2008-November/014834.html) on November 8, 2008. Within a week of the Bitcoin whitepaper being published, Hal Finney also talked about similar ideas for protocols like Lightning and Fedimint on top of bitcoin arguing for “building light-weight anonymous payment schemes on top of heavy-weight non-anonymous systems, so Bitcoin could be leveraged to allow for anonymity even beyond the mechanisms discussed in the paper,” he was basically describing Lightning protocol.

KAX1107

>Don't do this expecting to make extra bitcoin though Wrong, you can run a Lightning node quite profitably and there are now [open LSP models](https://medium.com/breez-technology/the-breez-open-lsp-model-scaling-lightning-by-sharing-roi-with-3rd-party-lsps-e2ef6e31562e). [This](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zvj4xp/lighting_statistics_of_my_routing_node_6_months/) is an average Lightning routing node. [This guy](https://twitter.com/RandomJoeT/status/1629574457516802048) started out with less than 25 million sats and earned 13 million sats in a period of about 6 months.

KAX1107

Time for you to check out [Breez open LSP model](https://medium.com/breez-technology/the-breez-open-lsp-model-scaling-lightning-by-sharing-roi-with-3rd-party-lsps-e2ef6e31562e)

KAX1107

Just to be clear about capacity, what you see [here](https://amboss.space/) is capacity in "public" channels. The total capacity is unknowable. Any P2WSH, P2TR UTXOs (total > 600k bitcoin) can be on unbroadcast channels. Also important to note that this is "routing capacity" which doesn't need to be 100k bitcoin but I suspect it will be at some point. Regardless, what's most important is connectivity. Breez has been really pushing the envelope with their [open LSP model](https://medium.com/breez-technology/the-breez-open-lsp-model-scaling-lightning-by-sharing-roi-with-3rd-party-lsps-e2ef6e31562e). This is going to destroy all shitcoin yield ponzis. You can generate return from routing services using automated software with full sovereignty and full custody. I agree that everyone should run a Lightning node simply because it's become so easy now. Why would you not earn a return on your bitcoin while retaining full custody?

KAX1107

>I never really understood what LND Hub actually does It's a wallet management software extension for your node that lets multiple accounts interact through a single "hub". Zeus is awesome. You can [combine with Alby](https://twitter.com/getAlby/status/1629164343311978499) for [zaps](https://zaplife.lol/) on Nostr. Breez is absolutely killing it now [pushing the envelope](https://twitter.com/marcrjandrew/status/1630936959261573124) on Lightning like no other with its new open-LSP model. This is actually going to destroy all the shitcoin staking ponzis and money over IP is going to [take the web by storm](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/10j7k8r/hot_dang_lightning_is_a_freaking_beast/j5j4yqc/) and completely transform all revenue models on the internet within the next 3-4 years.

whitslack

Oh, right; RoboSats has to be in the route. So there could be an issue with not enough liquidity from RoboSats to the buyer's LSP, and the seller would not be able to do anything about that. I would hope that RoboSats has a facility to handle such situations.

whitslack

Wouldn't the seller simply open a channel to the buyer's LSP if there's insufficient liquidity in that direction?

brandonholm

Yeah I’m not a big fan of Muun. It’s not even a real lightning wallet. It keeps everything on chain and interacts with LN using submarine swaps. It will get expensive, especially when you try sending funds from it, and they also charge high fees to people sending you funds on LN. If you’re relatively new to LN, Phoenix is decent as it automatically opens and manages channels for you (there’s a 3000 sat fee for each channel that’s opened, so best to send a decent amount of funds there to get a big channel opened). Wallet of Satoshi probably has the best LN user experience but it is fully custodial. My favorite LN wallet currently is Blixt Wallet, it’s super powerful and you can open your own channels to any node you like. By default you send on chain funds to it and it will use those funds ti automatically open a channel to the Blixt node (unless you disable that). If you need inbound you can enable the Dunder LSP to have a 400k sat inbound channel automatically created when you receive any amount up to 400k sats and the only fee is the on chain fee for the channel creation. If you need more inbound you can buy an inbound channel for any other liquidity service provider too such as LN BIG or Bitrefill.

areola_ola

That's perfectly fine because McDonald's is the biggest fast food joint within the last 60 yrs. They would get alot of loans and alot of liquidity. Alot like some stellar tokens. LOGS, BFIRE, LSP, XLPG, AQUA

Bitcoin__Hodler

Future Plans • Receive with route blinding • Local zero conf channels (virtual channels) • Multi-node pay • Vortex / Coin Join integration • LSP Integration • Tor only • Sporadic payments

Belmont_the_IV

YBX and LSP too....SLT was the absolute worst though, pure scum. They will chain hip and "reinvent" themselves to get people to ape in and then abandon again....wash, rinse and repeat.

jackwhite411

If merchants are too lazy or incompetent to run their own server, they could just use a LSP (Lightning Service Provider) like opennode.com

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Synonym Software has launched Blocktank, a new Lightning service provider (LSP) targeted at Lightning Network-based businesses. The open-source tools and services offered by Blocktank will help businesses better navigate the requirements for sending and receiving effective and reliable payments on Bitcoin’s second-layer scaling network. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

DM_ME_UR_SATS

LSPs (lightning service providers) will be playing these fees. Very few plebs will be using layer 1 in the far-flung future. There will definitely be plenty of activity. Think of it this way. An average user of USD can transact off-the-books with cash, instantly. But to make a bank transfer, that’s a slow, expensive process that’s handled by your bank. LN vs on-chain BTC will be similar, with your wallet or LSP handling settlement whenever it actually becomes necessary

Lavasioux

Wow LSP just went Time Square with a new ad. https://twitter.com/lumenswap/status/1487386754004959238?s=20&t=9al35mrt-Pb_FDCMlM9bJw

EnglishBulldog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSP0p_IPUIM

Freshysh

I only look at one chanel. And it's LSP. He talks more about understanding the movement, learning to understand the graph. I once looked at another YouTube crypto chanel and it made me wanna blow my head of.

prosysus

LSP?

Zero_Views

I’m going to have to disagree. I used to think this but I’ve seen some amazing chart readers. LSP is one of them. That dude is a level 2 monster that has been right every time.

Pristine-Eggplant

That doesn’t make it inherently not worth taking advantage of the DeFi. If you look into Aqua & Yieldblox you’ll see that there’s a heap opportunity right now. As far as promising projects, SLT and LSP are my personal picks. SLT had platform launch with payout today. Huge move.

Belmont_the_IV

I like ALGO...I locked my entire bag to governance. But I'm super bullish on XLM. With protocol 18 and AMM rollout ..there's going to be some serious liquidity and growth. The TX are also a bit more intuitive than the Algo ecosystem. AQUA and LSP are promising assets on the stellar DEX