See More CryptosHome

LN

LINK

Show Trading View Graph

Mentions (24Hr)

4

33.33% Today

Reddit Posts

New BTC Consulting Business--Viable?

r/BitcoinSee Post

A warning to not use online encryption/decryption websites

r/BitcoinSee Post

What is a good desktop LN wallet for Windows in 2023?

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! January 19, 2023: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

The paradox of safety in decentralization

r/BitcoinSee Post

LN Wallets Opinions⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Trying to test LN, turning into a small, time consuming failure

r/BitcoinSee Post

Blixt (LN) wallet 0.6.2 released

r/BitcoinSee Post

Accepting Bitcoin via LN at my barbershop

r/BitcoinSee Post

Let's talk about exchanges.

r/BitcoinSee Post

Node troubles

r/BitcoinSee Post

Cornelius (my LN routing node) is 2 years old today!

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! January 12, 2023: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Blackmailed to send BTC. Is it possible to catch the guy?

r/BitcoinSee Post

Lightning Network - first new high in 2 months

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! January 05, 2023: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Bitcoin Lightning Network payments are on the rise!

r/BitcoinSee Post

Please explain about trust/verification in Lightning

r/BitcoinSee Post

Proof of Keys Day (lntipbot)

r/BitcoinSee Post

Lightning Network Questions

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡️ Long Live LN!

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! December 29, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

We need this bear market.

r/BitcoinSee Post

From hotel NFC key, to LN Bitcoin giveaway medium

r/BitcoinSee Post

I got my Redditor friend to download the Muun wallet & sent him some sats here. I’m spreading the greatness of the Lightning Network ⚡️

r/BitcoinSee Post

#nostr #nostrplebs #nostrichs #bitcoin #LN ⚡️

r/BitcoinSee Post

Y so few ppl understand lightning network’s advantages

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What is Litecoin (LTC)? A beginner’s guide

r/BitcoinSee Post

How to get untraceable sats in my wallet

r/BitcoinSee Post

Give away Bitcoins as a christmas gift

r/BitcoinSee Post

Problem using Boltz exchange

r/BitcoinSee Post

Lightning.video has been recently updated!

r/BitcoinSee Post

new Umbrel BTC & LN node

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! December 22, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! December 22, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

How does Lightning Network resist DOS attacks?

r/BitcoinSee Post

LN tips appreciation 💛

r/BitcoinSee Post

Lightning tip bot

r/BitcoinSee Post

RGB: Smart contracts on Bitcoin and LN

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! December 15, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Request for artistic assistance.

r/BitcoinSee Post

LNtipbot is a gamechanger. I can tip anyone that makes a reddit account. AWESOME!

r/BitcoinSee Post

Lightning Adoption Initiative

r/BitcoinSee Post

LN/Umbrel OS question

r/BitcoinSee Post

So I got my first tip on reddit LN. It was super eye opening just how easy it was to withdraw. I’m here for this new movement! I wanna start tipping on other subs to spread awareness.

r/BitcoinSee Post

Help me with LN tipping feature please :)

r/BitcoinSee Post

Would love to find a way to sort posts in r/bitcoin by amount of LN tips received

r/BitcoinSee Post

LN and on chain from the phone

r/BitcoinSee Post

What is the network usage of LN node after fully synced ?

r/BitcoinSee Post

Disappointed with LN

r/BitcoinSee Post

LNtip !

r/BitcoinSee Post

Real life adoption happening in this sub

r/BitcoinSee Post

BTC Lightning Tips

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

What are the problems with Lightning Network?

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! December 08, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

A proposal to Satoshi or Early adopters: Biggest incentive in history to Bitcoin LN Node owners

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

The lies of Bitcoin Maxis

r/BitcoinSee Post

A new service micropay.ai is accepting LN for the recently popular generated-image systems.

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! December 01, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Putin's General Reveals Russia's Next Target: Destruction Of Ukraine's Banking Infrastructure. (Me: Ukrainians should use Bitcoin LN).

r/BitcoinSee Post

Putin's General Reveals Russia's Next Target: Destruction Of Ukraine's Banking Infrastructure. (Me: Ukrainians should use Bitcoin LN).

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Bitcoin Lightning Network (LN) and Lightning Network Apps (LAPPs)

r/SatoshiStreetBetsSee Post

Line shuts down crypto exchange to focus on blockchain and LN token

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Blockchain Layers PART-1: L1, L2 and L3 discussions.

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! November 24, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Loop needs to be a standard on the Lightning Network

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

I minted my own crypto now how do I make it have value

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Learn to utilize Bitcoin and its features in a decentralized manner.

r/BitcoinSee Post

Questions about lightning network

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

I wouldn't like Chivo Wallet doing an FTX trick.

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! November 17, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

The painful truth for many about Bitcoin

r/BitcoinSee Post

The most interesting thing that happened in Bitcoin

r/BitcoinSee Post

Is there a guide on how to buy large amounts and hold on lightning wallets?

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! November 10, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

FTX and other exchanges

r/BitcoinSee Post

LN.capital: "BOLT 12 is a sleeping giant. But 99% of Bitcoiners don’t understand it yet. In this thread, we’ll break it down as simply as possible:"

r/BitcoinSee Post

Bolt 12 is a sleeping giant - Twitter thread describing a draft specification for a new LN invoicing protocol.

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Common Bitcoin Fallacies

r/BitcoinSee Post

Common Bitcoin Fallacies

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! November 03, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

It is safe to assume we will be seeing Twitter accept Bitcoin payments for account verification very soon. Thoughts?

r/BitcoinSee Post

Happy Bitcoin White Paper Day 🎉

r/BitcoinSee Post

Zero Fee Routing, arguably the biggest router on the LN, decides to close down.

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! October 27, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

I need exposure to defi with Bitcoin

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! October 20, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Impervious browser launched for Mac/linux

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Beers for Bitcoin LN: Here’s the story of Satoshi’s Place pub in the UK

r/BitcoinSee Post

BTC and LN development

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! October 13, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/BitcoinSee Post

Enjoying a Sats powered beer in Amsterdam using LN :)

r/BitcoinSee Post

With all the LN sat stacking going on around here recently…

r/BitcoinSee Post

Gift sats without losing them ✨

r/BitcoinSee Post

Layer2Labs is working on a non-custodial wallet to support Taproot on-chain, LN, RGB (layer3), Atomic Swaps

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

[serious] Question for people who like the Lightning Network solution

r/BitcoinSee Post

If Bitcoin doesn't solve the scaling problem on the first layer, then it will probably need to be solved on the 2nd (LN)... but isn't this a problem?

r/BitcoinSee Post

Lightning Network - 5076 btc + 26 btc last 24 hours

r/BitcoinSee Post

⚡ Lightning Thursday! October 06, 2022: Explore the Lightning Network!⚡

r/CryptoCurrencySee Post

Censorship in r/btc: This statistic of ~10% of Bitcoin payments already occurring via Lightning will get you perma-banned there.

Mentions

Absolute privacy at base layer is actually the double-edged sword. Ideally, we want privacy at individual level but also transparency with regards to businesses and corporations, with the government being the largest corporation. Bitcoin enables this brilliantly. Lightning (with Taproot) is [as private as cash](https://twitter.com/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768) and perfect for day-to-day payments, but it will never be suitable for large settlements. It's also important to note that people using KYC on/off ramps has nothing to do with bitcoin. Bitcoin offers pretty good anonymity. Stick to P2P exchanges like Bisq, Robosats, Peach. "The possibility to be anonymous or pseudonymous relies on you not revealing any identifying information about yourself in connection with the bitcoin addresses you use. If you post your bitcoin address on the web, then you’re associating that address and any transactions with it with the name you posted under. If you posted under a handle that you haven’t associated with your real identity, then you’re still pseudonymous." — Satoshi Nakamoto

Mentions:#LN

Fiatjef is fine. He just has a lot to handle rn. And when everyone wants to withdraw handling liquidity on LN is a lot of work. But in the end it was a custodial service all the time. Don't trust. Or get rekt.

Mentions:#LN

So 16,000 LN nodes with a total guesstimate of 100 transactions per node per day or 160,000 LN transactions per day. If someone could come up with a more educated guess as to number of transactions per day per LN node we could have a more meaningful number.

Mentions:#LN

As I understand Nostr is the backend protocol that anyone can build a social media-esque service on top of. Imagine if you could take your Twitter handle, all of its history and followers/followees, to anybody's platform. It removes the private stranglehold on social data. It also integrates with LN so payments are a breeze within any service. It's still new to me and im learning but that's my basic understanding so far.

Mentions:#LN

Starting a business that helps other businesses accept BTC (Lightning Network) payments can be a viable and profitable idea. The growing demand for cryptocurrency payments and lack of knowledge and resources available for businesses to easily integrate them can create a great opportunity for your consulting business. However, it's important to consider the potential security risks, such as being a target for criminals, and to have a robust security plan in place to protect both your business and your clients' assets. It would be beneficial to conduct market research and reach out to potential customers to gauge interest in your services before fully committing to the idea. Overall, with the right planning and execution, your consulting business could be a valuable asset to the community and help to drive the adoption of BTC/LN in commerce transactions.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

Since we will never know how much transactions are on LN, we can´t do that. But since LN can handle millions of transactions, energy Use Per Transaction is not a problem. LN is greener than the banking system ever will be

Mentions:#LN

You can't know real Lightning network capacity. 5.3k bitcoin is public channels only. Actual amount in LN channels is unknown since any of P2WSH (and any P2TR) UTXOs can be on unbroadcast channels which is like 600k btc total.

Mentions:#LN

#Lightning Network Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by DaddySkates which won 3rd place in the Lightning Network Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Bitcoin and its Lightning Network is a layer 2 protocol that is solving the problem of scalability with Bitcoin. This means it tries to reduce the congestion on the network and improve transaction count and speed. > > > Let's see what are those not so good points of the LN: > > * Lightning network is the exact thing that Satoshi didn't want BTC to become > * Small fee and fast transactions networks are prone to attacks (NANO case in 2020) > * There is little indicative to keep BTC on LN. There is literally no benefits to it. > * Meganodes could make the whole network very centralized > * It's still not tested enough to put in such wide use case as in El Salvador > > ​ > > Thank you! ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfom7t/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_lightning_network/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Lightning_Network) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10jrpkm/daily_general_discussion_january_24_2023_gmt0/).

Mentions:#LN#BTC

Groundbreaking post for me. Been fixing up and upgrading an old computer that (hopefully) can run 24/7 as a full Bitcoin node with battery backup and watchtower for LN (second stage).

Mentions:#LN

Unless there's a specific tax law for moving Bitcoin, I doubt it. India has this I believe, and it's utterly stupid. If you're depositing Bitcoin in a LN node and moving LN-BTC, that could be different.

Mentions:#LN#BTC

I've never bothered to set up a wallet on my lightning node, still just using Bluewallet's custodial LN wallet. When you create the wallet on the node and fund channels for routing, is that where to send the funds (on chain) from Bluewallet? Then when you tell BW to connect to your node the balance will appear again and be spendable on LN? I realize I need to set up out/in channels but it's never been clear how many wallets/addresses this involves. Sorry for the ignorance, I've had the node running for years but this part was never clear and I didn't want to risk sending funds where they aren't easy to recover. Even a tutorial link would be great.

Mentions:#LN

!lntip 1000 The first challenge with money was "how do I transact with you if we don't both have something the other needs?" The next challenge with money was "how do I transact with someone who is physically separated form me?" Then there's another challenge too. If something that represents value can be easily produced then it loses its value which is not ideal because it doesn't actually solve the first challenge. The money needed to be hard and hold its value till you have the need to exchange it for goods. The solutions we found were first to agree to use something that was not inherently valuable itself but represented a notional value and then we introduced middlemen to issue money and maintain accounts and ledgers backed by something that cannot be easily reproduced but that's a problem too because the maintainer of ledgers can easily reproduce IOUs. Until 2008, we never really had a solutions. We had to settle for workarounds. We had to settle for "trust me, bro". Bitcoin solves ALL these problems. It's gold with a superpowers. Unforgeable cost of work, absolute mathematical scarcity and teleportation. For being a hard asset, bitcoin is also the easiest asset ever to self custody, it's the first time you have ever been able to truly own anything that is not subject to the whims of authority, it's unconfiscatable and you physically can take it literally anywhere with you without anyone knowing, even to the grave. But bitcoin has a problem too. Blockchain is inefficient to do anything but maintain global state of timestamped transactional database at the base layer without losing security and making it centralized. Great for settlements and bitcoin network is the [most efficient settlement network in the world](https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/bitcoin-is-the-worlds-most-efficient-value-settlement-network) already settling higher value than US GDP but sucks for micropayments. If we go back to the formative years of the internet, it had a similar problem. Then along came "god of the internet", Jon Postel who argued that monolithic internet design can never scale and we cannot violate the principles of layering protocols. About TCP he said "be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from others". This is Postel's Law. Internet would not exist as it is today without separation of application layer. For bitcoin, day to day payments is an application of money as medium of exchange and Lightning is that payments layer. Bitcoin is conservative in what it does, but liberal in what it accepts from layered protocols built on top of it. Lightning is [private like cash](https://twitter.com/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768) (with Taproot) and has a theoretical throughput of several million TPS. There are so many cool things happening in Lightning. I am not even fully up to speed with all of it. BTCPay Server has enabled [unified QR code](https://twitter.com/BtcpayServer/status/1596193870509137920) for on-chain and lightning. There's no more any confusion for the end user whether they pay on chain or lightning. Your wallet decodes accordingly. This is massive for UX. [Lightning login](https://twitter.com/apollosats/status/1593003920930275328) and P2P Lightning apps are going to take the web by storm and completely transform revenue models for all internet applications. It will also transform journalism and potential for public to directly incentivize and demand unbiased, independent journalism. Article behind a paywall cannot cost $0.0001 because of cumbersome legacy rails and middlemen rent seekers. No such problems with Lightning and [BOLT12](https://twitter.com/LN_Capital/status/1589321548133203968) will make this so much simpler and user friendly. TARO, RGB, Fedimint, Machankura, Zion, Impervious AI, Kollider, Nostr which are layered protocols and decentralized applications leveraging Lightning. [This](https://twitter.com/BitPaine/status/1615764109638914049) is noise. [This](https://decrypt.co/86503/defi-users-lost-billion-theft-fraud-2021-mostly-ethereum-report) is scam. [This](https://np.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/zd5vnj/bitcoin_is_for_everyone/) is signal.

I agree in everything except the bitcoin part. Bitcoin is mostly based in a reserve of value narrative but it doesn’t make sense financially speaking. Bitcoin is positively related to the stock market, and in moments of financial uncertainty, it crashed in price, like March 2020. Yes, the rest of crypto is the same, but they propose other use cases that bitcoin cannot do. The whole idea is that people hold indefinitely and never using it. 100M holders and 250k tx per day means that only 7% of the people can do a single tx a month. That’s not even enough to put or remove money from a LN with periodicity. Bitcoin has the brand and the first mover advantage. The question is for how long? 90% market share in 2014, 80% in 2016, 50% in 2018, 60% in 2020, 40% in 2022-23. The writing is on the wall. Bitcoin will be always in our heart. It was a revolution. But it’s out dated and doesn’t have the capacity of being a global asset. People that are all in in bitcoin, in my opinion, are too emotionally invested in this coin. Like this is still 2014.

Mentions:#LN

LN is a can of worms of problems. After 5 years it has very limited adoption for a good reason

Mentions:#LN

I just recently started buying BTC via Strike and sending it to my Phoenix LN wallet where I hold the keys and I love it. I feel like I truly "OWN" this bitcoin versus the Bitcoin I hold in some custodial wallets. Everyone should try it out for themselves. (You'll need to deposit $ into your strike app then go to "Pay" and paste the invoice for the amount of sats you want to send to send to the Phoenix wallet btw) (once sent give it 10 -20 seconds or so and your Phoenix wallet will show it as received) If you buy Bitcoin right on the Strike app you will need to send that BTC via an "on-chain" transaction instead of the LN. Figure out how to store your keys well and you'll be golden in a few years. Enjoy.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

Custodial accounts, exactly the same way that banks work now. In fact I would guess between 90% and 99% of people globally would prefer to use custodial accounts rather than self-custody. Changing the currency from fiat to Bitcoin won’t magically turn the global population into decentralisation fanatics. Also bear in mind that Bitcoin on chain fees will be much higher in future - even with LN it will be too expensive for most people (LN reduces but does not eliminate the need for on-chain transactions). Bitcoin block space is limited for a reason.

Mentions:#LN

Since making the post I'm going through my history and checking the sites I visited. Some of them are pretty open about githubs and PII - so if I'm wrong I might be slandering someone's name. Just going to see if any particular site is less suspicious. Like one of the githubs, the person contributes to LN. Seems unlikely to be the type to collect seed phrases but idk.

Mentions:#LN

#Lightning Network Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by DaddySkates which won 3rd place in the Lightning Network Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Bitcoin and its Lightning Network is a layer 2 protocol that is solving the problem of scalability with Bitcoin. This means it tries to reduce the congestion on the network and improve transaction count and speed. > > > Let's see what are those not so good points of the LN: > > * Lightning network is the exact thing that Satoshi didn't want BTC to become > * Small fee and fast transactions networks are prone to attacks (NANO case in 2020) > * There is little indicative to keep BTC on LN. There is literally no benefits to it. > * Meganodes could make the whole network very centralized > * It's still not tested enough to put in such wide use case as in El Salvador > > ​ > > Thank you! ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfom7t/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_lightning_network/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Lightning_Network) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10hdaqg/daily_general_discussion_january_21_2023_gmt0/).

Mentions:#LN#BTC

#Lightning Network Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by Blendzi0r which won 1st place in the Lightning Network Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # What is Lightning Network and why is it needed? > > Lightning Network is a layer 2 protocol (just like e.g. Optimistic Rollups are layer 2 solutions for ETH) designed to solve scalability problem. Scalability, to put it simply, is how many transactions per second (TPS) can be performed. As of now, Bitcoin is not scalable, meaning it can perform very few transactions compared not only to PayPal or Visa, but also to many other cryptocurrencies. This results in congestion - high fees and delayed transactions. Lightning Network is to solve Bitcoin’s scalability problem. > > > # What are Lightning Network's pros? > > **It's Fast** > > As mentioned in the introduction, Lightning Network helps Bitcoin perform more TPS. In order to use LN, users have to set up (fund) a **payment channel**/node. After setting up the channel, all direct transactions made with someone who also set up a payment channel are free and fast – the speed of transactions depends on the internet speed of users. Theoretically, there are no limits as to the number of payments that can be made per second. > > **It's Cheap** > > It is important to note that it is possible to make transactions with people with whom you do not have payment channels set up. This is what the “Network” part of the name stands for. If you do not have a direct payment channel set up with someone you want to transact with, you can make this transaction via other people (nodes) who have such a connection (it is called **payment routing**). This is when you will also have to pay a very small fee to each node that the transaction goes through. LN always searches for the shortest route to reach the receiver of your payment but those **commissions are insignificant** anyway. > > This is even less of an issue when you take into consideration that **you can make an infinite number of transactions between payment channels on LN** and, therefore, avoid current high fees on Bitcoin blockchain. > > **It's Private** > > Except two transactions: opening (funding) a payment channel and closing it, all **transactions made between LN users are not recorded on the blockchain**. They are not public. On top of that, LN uses onion routing known from Tor (The Onion Router). > > The only agents that can see transaction made on Lightning Network are those who participate in them (they can see who they received the payment from and who they sent the payment to) > > **It's Secure** > > Lightning Network uses a technology called HTLC – **Hashed Timelock Contract**. It is a smart contract that eliminates the counterparty risk as it facilitates time-bound transactions. Put simply, it means that people have to accept payments by providing cryptographic proof in a given time. > > There are also Watchtower nodes - third parties whose job is to prevent fraud within Lightning Network. If anything goes wrong during a transaction, e.g. one of the parties goes offline or commits a malicious act, the funds are returned to the other party (funds are safu) > > **Reduces the load on Bitcoin’s blockchain** > > Since all the transactions between payment channels on Lightning Network are performed off-chain, it reduces the load on Bitcoin’s blockchain. This mean that transactions even for people who will not use LN might become much cheaper and much faster if enough people use LN. > > **Does not require a fork** > > As a layer 2 protocol, Lightning Network does not require any forking, so **there is no risk of a hard fork** (hard fork divides blockchains into two separate blockchains/currencies. This is how e.g. Bitcoin Cash was created). All the transactions are performed off-chain, so the Bitcoin block size does not have to be changed. > > **It made it possible for Bitcoin to become a legal tender in El Salvador** > > Lightning Network was tested in El Salvadoran beach town of El Zonte. Despite terrible internet connection and other technological limitations in the town, 90% of families in El Zonte made Bitcoin transactions using LN and the success of this experiment encouraged the president of El Salvador to make Bitcoin legal tender in his country. On September 7, El Salvador became the first country in the world to embrace Bitcoin as legal tender thanks to LN. > > **Endorsed by Jack Dorsey, Twitter CEO** > > Lightning Network was completed in 2017 and its adoption process was rather slow. However, the situation changed around 2020. More and more parties are adopting LN, including crypto exchanges. Jack Dorsey is known to be a great enthusiast of LN. He donated money to the Lighting Labs, developers of software that powers LN. He also makes it clear that he wants Twitter to integrate LN. > > **Lightning Network is not only for Bitcoin** > > Lightning Network can be used with virtually any other cryptocurrency. Altcoins that use or used LN include e.g. Litecoin (cheaper transactions were always Litecoin’s advantage over BTC, but if BTC adopts LN, this advantage will disappear), ZCash, XRP, Monero or Stellar. > > The key-takeaway is that **Lightning Network makes it possible for Bitcoin to become an actual currency** and not only a store of value. And this is what Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin’s creator, envisioned. > > ^(Sources:) > > ^(https://lightning.network/lightning-network-paper.pdf) > > ^(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning\\Network) > > ^(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3cQNpOR\\a0) > > ^(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCSfoiD8wUA) > > ^(https://www.reuters.com/business/el-salvadors-bitcoin-beach-town-digital-divide-slows-uptake-2021-06-14/) > > ^(https://www.wired.com/story/the-lightning-network-could-make-bitcoin-faster-and-cheaper/) > > ^(https://cointelegraph.com/lightning-network-101/altcoins-with-lightning-network-support) > > ^(https://blockchainsimplified.com/blog/bitcoin-lightning-network-vs-ethereum-plasma/) ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfolqr/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_lightning_network/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Lightning_Network) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

1) Yes, LN is more centralized than base layer. It is impossible to have an L2 be more decentralized than the layer it is built upon. Large nodes will route more payments, which apparently is a bad thing to you? If they act maliciously there are hundreds or thousands of alternative paths so I don't see a problem 2) If LN is successful I foresee the majority of people never interacting with the base layer in the future, as such they will not be subjected to channel opening/closing fees. Watchtower FUD is silly. I've been interacting with LN since 2019 and literally the only time I've heard about watchtowers is when shitcoiners are fudding. My one cent estimate was based on a relatively large transaction. I charge 0.01% to route through my node, so if someone wanted to send a dollar I would charge them 1/100 of a penny 3) *Centralized* L1s are far less kludgy. That's the perk of centralization.

Mentions:#LN#FUD

Nope, you're not analizing how LN works. Although the main chain need consensus (like credit card and banks during settlements), the upper chain manages direct P2P interchange between nodes. While a centralized system can add a limited number of servers (depending on space and budget), LN can potentially add as many nodes as people in the world and even more. Think this way: can a centralized system manage all P2P cash transactions with paper dollars? Not, because it will require a lot of investment to manage P2P (small amounts, no KYC people, privacy, etc.). A decentralized world manages itself with more speed than a cenralized control can do.

Mentions:#LN

1. LN is a l2 that is far more centralized than Bitcoin and most people will end up using the most centralized nodes because of the kludgey design. 2. Total cost is a common metric that is the sum of all costs incurred including one time costs for setup such as channel opening and closing fees. You can lose funds to watchtowers. Also, one cent a transaction is still quite expensive for small transactions. 3. Any L1 is far less kludgy by design. There aren’t send limits for example. You can send to offline accounts. Funds can be locked on LN. time it takes to open channels.

Mentions:#LN

1. A visualization of connectivity isn’t responsive to the centralization concern. 2. Another misdirection to avoid talking about the total cost of LN 3. This is a common word in software development. 🤷‍♀️

Mentions:#LN

This sub hates LN because it threatens to obsolete their shitcoins

Mentions:#LN

![gif](giphy|t1LN92ql388kKqKWft)

Mentions:#LN

The law is not clear: *Art. 13 Those who, by evident and notorious fact, do not have access to the technologies that allow them to carry out transactions in bitcoin are excluded from the obligation expressed in Art. 7 of this law.* If you buy a coconut on the street the seller could definitely rely on this article. Restaurants maybe not. But since it is still highly unusual to pay in Bitcoin and the knowledge is limited (especially the use of Chivo, on-chain, LN that seem to confuse residents) maybe they could too. In one restaurant only one of the employees could handle Bitcoin transactions. In one store the device was not loaded and I could have payed in Bitcoin if I would have waited a while but the seller seemed not so happy since there were people in line behind me.. I mean I could have taken a chance but I cannot simply walk out of the store with the item if it wasn't payed. Not sure what could have happened if I tried that in a restaurant. Also, there are more people who don't like Bitcoin than who like it. Especially after the price crash.

Mentions:#LN

Phoenix is cool. BlueWallet (the LN part) & Wallet of Satoshi are custodial, unless you connect to your own node. Have a look at Breez & Blixt.

Mentions:#LN

I don't have a LN wallet. Cash app was supposed to get one, at some point.

Mentions:#LN

Yeah I agree something would need to change, but any fork would be decided collectively by miners to collectively maximise their returns. Tail emissions is definitely a possibility but that would undermine the “21 million limit” which is always repeated as a key feature. Take it away and Bitcoin is no longer a hard deflationary asset. Another possibility is block size is adjusted but based on a demand curve in order to maximise total fees (and thus miner returns). The optimum block size is then where transaction fee * transactions per block is maximised, which in turn is based on the expected number of people who would use Bitcoin at any given price point. This might mean that only 5-10% of people use Bitcoin/LN directly, with the remainder transacting via custodial accounts (bear in mind that even right now, the vast majority of people who have “bought” Bitcoin in some form have only done so into custodial accounts, they don’t self-custody and don’t transact on chain).

Mentions:#LN

I’m sure LN could handle it but you’d most likely need a straightforward route between channels which is not convenient at all. Wasn’t aware of RBF how can I make sure a transaction isn’t flagged as such?

Mentions:#LN

#Nano Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by pashtun92 which won 1st place in the Nano Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # A bearish case for Nano: a discussion about bitcoin's scalability and a comparison of Nano with other altcoins. > > Disclaimer: This argument has been used by myself in the last round. I have updated some of the arguments. > > Update: today nano has fallen out of top 200 coin! > > The arguments I have seen in this subreddit are always the same boring arguments: It is fast, free and compared with bitcoin it takes less energy. Nano proponants have entire graphs of electricity use and metaphors to "strenghten" their case. What they forget to mention is that it is exactly this high electricity cost which provides the security of bitcoin. I dare say that bitcoin is the most secured blockchain in the world. Aside from perhaps ethereum, I don't think there is any crypto which has transaction volumes of over billions of USD's. For good reason, mind you. > > Now let's dive deeper into the arguments provided by nano proponants. What I always find interesting, is that nano proponants always claim that bitcoin "is not scalable", knowing full well that this is not the truth. By now, anyone in the space knows of the L2 solution for bitcoin, the lightning network, which does exactly the same as nano does: giving instant and practically free transactions. > > However, when you mention this to a nano proponant, they always come back with the same boring argument: "Ya but there is only 7 TPS in the main chain layer, therefore, L2 is not scalable, as you would need on-chain transactions to open and close LN channels". This is false, I dare say even FUD, as we have something called the lightning channel factories which can scale LN to support the entire world. They are not yet in use, as LN has not reached it's capacity yet. > > The nano proponant proceeds with more FUD: "Ya but LN has many security issues, there is the famous flood & loot attack, you should google it". What the nano proponant either don't know, or as I would expect from them, consciously omit is that we already have a sort of "firewall" for this attack and this problem has been fixed. I suspect consciously because they always claim bitcoin is not scalable when this is obviously false and they know that too. > > So the conclusion we can draw from here is that nano holds no competitive advantage over bitcoin. In contrast, bitcoin DOES hold competitive advantages over nano. For one, the micropayments possible with LN (e.g. paying equivalanet of 0.001 dollar) opens the way to revolutionazing finance and how companies operate. For example, right now all podcast makers have to find "sponsers" to earn money with the podcast. But now it is possible to listen to podcasts through LN, making 0.001 dollar payment per minute, which is nothing for the listener, but can amount to a significant sum for the podcast creator. You could also do something like 'pay for what you watch' as opposed to having a subscription of 10 dollar/month even if you don't use it. > > Aside from this, there are also many other things you can do with LN which I will only briefly touch but link to here: > > It is possible to send messages (app like or email) through LN, completely private and encrypted > > Use atomic multipad payments (AMP) to send FILES through nodes in LN (e.g. an audio file) > > Call someone without anyone ever knowing through LN and even send money over if you wish so > > Decentralised finance (lending & borrowing bitcoin specifically) > > Earn satoshi's through playing games > > We also have important updates coming to the bitcoin network such as Schorr Signatures, RGB and possibly Eltoo. This would make the use of smart contracts very easy on bitcoin and pave the way for DEFI similar to the scale of ETH and others. > > What I find interesting about nano proponant is that they never, NEVER compare nano to other altcoins in their "bull case for nano". Why is this you may ask? The answer is obvious: anyone would immediatly notice that other altcoins can do what nano can and have much better functionality, use cases and backing. All nano can do is transact value from A to B, free and cheap. Let's take a look at a small list of other coins which can do pretty much the same, but also have the potential of DEFI: > > Ethereum (In DEFI, king of security) > > Solana ( In DEFI king of speed) > > Cardano ( In DEFI king of decentralisation) > > XLM > > IOTA > > ALGO > > Yet the nano proponant will claim that nano is undervalued, when it has no competitive advantage whatsoever. Some of them will claim that it is best used for "day to day transactions". Like outlined above, one could easily use LN for that and much more, making nano obsolete. Or if a person was keen on privacy, he or she would use monero for day to day transactions - which is as we all know the king of privacy. > > Nano proponant have a dream that some day it will overtop bitcoin. However, the truth is much harsher. For one, nano used to be a top 10 coin in 2017. Now it temporarily fell out of top 100 just a few months ago. I speculate that this downward trend will continue and nano will drop out of top 100 by the next bull cycle. In my opinion the only reason nano shillers shill this coin is because of personal greed and not fundamentals or use cases. We are living in 2021 and not 2017. We expect more from a coin than just being cheap and fast. > > Tl;dr: Nano has no competitive advantage or whatsover. It is claimed to be fast and cheap, which is true, however the same applies to L2 LN of bitcoin and many other altcoins. Aside from this, LN and other altcoins provide us with many more fuctionalities and use cases, making nano an obsolete coin of 2017. > > Nano spam attack: Because of its non-existant fees, it makes the network susceptible to a Sybil attack. Not mentioned in my original post, but add security risk to another con of nano network. This is proof to me that nano would never function as a global reserve currency. Link: Nano’s Network Flooded With Spam, Nodes Out of Sync (coindesk.com) ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yip/coin_inquiries_round_nano_conarguments_november/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Nano) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10ghhlu\/daily_general_discussion_january_20_2023_gmt0/).

Depends. It is cheap, but that's because it's not used by everyone to buy bread and milk. LN was meant to solve for small, instantaneous transactions (which I forgot to mention - transactions on LN are practically instantaneous).

Mentions:#LN

Unless the room was 20$ I doubt you can use LN efficiently, ha. I accept BTC at work and use main chain because transactions are in the hundreds. Cost a client 40cents fees this week. I just check if the transaction is pending on explorer and let them on their way.

Mentions:#LN#BTC

I just came back from El Salvador a few days ago (I've got relatives in El Savlador who I haven'ty seen for 20 years. I live and grew up in Europe.) I can confirm that most stores won't accept bitcoin (Even in 'Bitcoin City' some stores or restaurants don't). But there are people and stores all around the country that do accept it although there are not many (yet). As far as I understand when talking to people about it many do think it might turn out as a failure and some worry the government did this to enable corruption (which is understandable if you know about the history of the country and the knowledge about the technology or the history of bitcoin is limited). On the other hand many people hope that this technology can bring El Salvador forward and they see the pro arguments mentioned in the well written post above. When paying with bitcoin it was working pretty fine since the internet connection throughout the country is far better than in my ('developed') home country. I did my first LN transactions there. And they usualy take around 5 seconds. The whole paying process takes around 20-30 seconds which is fine I think. I guess It would be faster if they had an LN device that can scan shopping items which I haven't seen. I believe another bull run might accelerate the adaption since people tend to be a bit pessimistic about its future right now.

Mentions:#LN

That's an awful outcome. So I make a transaction to my friend Tom and get charged a $1 fee. Then I make a transaction to my competing business "Solarmine" and what am I supposed to do once they ask me to pay a $100,000 fee? This is the biggest risk with having 2 pools control 51%+ of the hashrate (like they do today). If that's the hopeful outcome then holy fuck. "Hey I noticed you have lots of BTC, it'd be a shame if you couldn't move any of it *ha*, send me 10BTC and I can help you out." Lightning Network isn't an L2 either. It's off-chain, seperate from BTC with its own trust assumptions that have nothing to do with BTC's. You can lose your BTC inside the LN due to it being off-chain, you can't lose coins in an L2 due to an L2 being on-chain. All fees earned from Lightning Network stay in Lightning Network, it's parasitic to BTC miners the exact same way people using Binance to send BTC to each other is.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

You can use [Boltz](https://boltz.exchange/) to send your LN bitcoin into cold storage. Your outbound liquidity will get converted to inbound in the process.

Mentions:#LN

So I am new to Bitcoin, Wallet of Satoshi is the best way for me to get started on LN?...

Mentions:#LN

I want to hear the answer too. I hope its the owner pops out his personal cell phone and takes LN. Fuck the tax thieves and bank commies!

Mentions:#LN

I don't think this would help in adoption, but it might help you get a percentage back in BTC (or whatever reward you choose). For adoption, I'd look for local small businesses who accept BTC and make some LN purchases or better yet, help get a couple local businesses to start accepting it.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

It's high and it's low. It's high because people only [spend around $300,000 for BTC's blockspace each day](https://cryptofees.info/). Blocks are never congested so fees are never high enough to necessitate an off-chain layer. If 5000 BTC are using an off-chain layer unnecessarily that's quite a lot. LN only makes sense when there's no more blockspace and people need to use (weaker) alternatives. It's low because people aren't using BTC for its intended purpose, as a peer to peer digital currency. People use it as a speculative instrument to be traded with centralized third parties instead. The Lightning Network can only be decentralized if everyone uses it. Really there should be 1% or more BTC using it, at least, 40x more volume. If anyone wants to use LN to send 10 BTC it will likely fail. There just isn't enough in there. Liquidity begets more liquidity, so if no one is using it no one will want to fund it, then no one will use it even moreso. If 1% of all BTC funded LN anyone could use it for any purpose bringing much more (payment) utility/adoption to BTC. Ethereum cleared about $5M in fee revenue today and BTC $300,000 or 1/17 as much. Meanwhile each halving BTC undergoes pushes it 2x closer to being 100% reliant on fee income to maintain all its security. Everyone needs to be using their BTC **constantly** but no one is, so to see 5000 in its only scaling layer and $300,000 in fee revenue (beside its $20M inflation that will get halved each 4 years forever) is *extremely* low considering. You'd think with its market cap, BTC must be the best payment solution and people would be using it for payments. If I didn't know better I'd have guessed 25% of circulating BTC is in LN and not 0.0002%. I don't think LN will be a success story. I wish BTC would upgrade in *any* way to allow scaling on-chain, I think people might actually use it then.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

I just woke up and totally misread the chart. I was looking at USD not BTC. It says there's 5,000 BTC in the LN. Still shockingly low considering the 19M in circulation and how much is being wrapped.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

#Lightning Network Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by youngbitcoino which won 2nd place in the Lightning Network Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > # Arguments against the Lightning Network > The Lightning Network has many fatal flaws that are well known and do not seem to be solvable. > > ## Routing algorithm > One of them is the lack of a reliable and efficient algorithm to find a payment path between two nodes that are not neighbours and don't have a common neighbour. In a fairly distributed network with millions of users, such a path will have many hops, like 5 or 10. For a path to be viable, all those channels must have enough outbound capacity to send the amount in question. But since the state of the channels is constantly changing, that search would require a huge number of messages, either during the transfer or in preparation for it. > > ## Fraudulent channel closures > Another problem is fraudulent channel closures. After doing a series of payments through a channel, you can try to close the channel and collect its balance, as if those payments had never been made. Since no one knows about those payments except the two end-nodes, it is up to the other node to frequently scan the blockchain and promptly issue a "punishment" closure transaction if they see such a fraudulent behaviour, and hope that it does not get stuck in a backlog. But your punishment, as fraudster, will only be the loss of the remaining channel capacity, so it is worth trying once you have made enough payments to almost exhaust the channel's capacity. Users who cannot afford to scan the blockchain (like all mobile users) would have to hire and trust the service of a "watcher" and send them a message after receiving each payment through the channel. > > ## Gaming and sabotaging nodes > Also, there are many ways in which the network could be gamed or sabotaged. For instance, you can negotiate a payment with a long chain of nodes but drop out at the last moment. You will not pay anything for the attempt, but all those nodes will have to temporarily reserve the amount for you until the negotiation times out. Repeat at will. The LN guys had decided in the past to use an onion protocol for those negotiations, for privacy; but then the intermediate nodes will not know who you are and thus cannot blacklist you. They may have given up on onion negotiations nowadays, but then all intermediate nodes will know how much you are paying and to whom. Unlike bitcoin addresses, LN nodes cannot be freely created, so the identity of users is much easier to establish. > With a similar trick you can monitor all payments made through a channel anywhere in the network, or manipulate channel balances with timed-out payment attempts so as to force nodes to take overly long routes, possibly through nodes that you control -- and that charge very high fees. > > ## Unbalanced nodes > Lastly, the LN concept assumes that nodes are mostly balanced. That is, over some given period -- a month, a week -- each user pays out through the LN as much as they receive through it. It cannot easily accommodate a frugal landlord who collects $1000 a month from her 10 tenants and only spends $2000 a month herself. Such unbalanced nodes would have to periodically send some of the excess money they receive to a "bank" or some sort; but then the bank may easily become unbalanced too. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pfom7t/rcc_cointest_general_concepts_lightning_network/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest Archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Lightning_Network) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/10fmn05/daily_general_discussion_january_19_2023_gmt0/).

Mentions:#LN

The Lightning Network is a dismal failure There's only 2,000 BTC using it. If you have 1 BTC you'll likely have to pass through a centralized LN-hub (a bank) to complete the channel. There's also 180,000 wrapped BTC on Ethereum, using a centralized multisig - probably what Avax had to use. Wrapped BTC adds *so* much systematic risk, I don't trust *people* (multisigs) nearly enough.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

If Bitcoin is adopted, I expect the solution is that (in my estimation) > 90% of people will use custodial accounts, not self-custody. So what we would see is three linked networks : Bitcoin, LN, and a global network of banks/CEXs providing Bitcoin denominated accounts with a separate off-chain clearing network offering low/zero fee instant inter-bank payments and fractional reserve banking. This isn’t just because of the issues you highlight around the risks of self-custody. It’s multiple other reasons. Firstly people and businesses need loans, credit cards etc. Banks will offer these but lock you into their ecosystem, with on-chain withdrawals being limited / discouraged. The other reason is that as usage grows, Bitcoin fees will go up. Even for LN, users still need to move Bitcoin on and off to balance the need for liquidity vs the risks of holding too much on what is effectively a hot wallet. In theory the equilibrium should be found where fees are maximised to the point where enough potential users are discouraged from using Bitcoin (due to high fees) that the remaining users fill up just about 100% of block space. While the network could fork to increase block size, miners will generally act to maximise their collective fee earnings rather than altruistically to encourage wider adoption.

Mentions:#LN

> But isnt the dream that paychecks are made in bitcoin Dream means delusion > LN solves scalability for everyone to use sats in every purchase and adoption grows so much that everyone holds significant bitcoin? It doesn't. Lightning increases capacity by a factor of 200-300, or less, depending on actual life of a typical Lightning channel and the number of channels per person necessary for reliable routing --- Bitcoin is for spending, not hoarding https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf > Commerce on the Internet has come to rely almost exclusively on financial institutions serving as trusted third parties to process electronic payments. While the system works well enough for most transactions, it still suffers from the inherent weaknesses of the trust based model. Completely non-reversible transactions are not really possible, since financial institutions cannot avoid mediating disputes. The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions, and there is a broader cost in the loss of ability to make non-reversible payments for non-reversible services. With the possibility of reversal, the need for trust spreads. Merchants must be wary of their customers, hassling them for more information than they would otherwise need. A certain percentage of fraud is accepted as unavoidable. These costs and payment uncertainties can be avoided in person by using physical currency, but no mechanism exists to make payments over a communications channel without a trusted party

Mentions:#LN

>the company's node actually knows then where all your tx go I'm not sure about Phoenix, but that statement is not true of Breez. The Breez app maintains a local copy of the LN channel graph and performs all route finding client-side. The Breez node will know *when* you're sending payments and *how much* you're sending, but it won't necessarily know *to whom* you're sending them. It will only know the recipient if the recipient is also a Breez user. Note that Breez gives you a full command line for the LND node it runs under the hood, so you can open channels with other nodes besides the Breez node. This lets you use the nice app without being spied on (by Breez). The best from a privacy perspective is if you open a channel between the Breez app and your own Lightning node.

Mentions:#LN

I think the answer is yes. Now this is just my opinion, but I think Bitcoin is heading more towards store of value, than it is to everyday currency for purchasing. Right now it does both, and obviously there are countries like El Salvador using it for currency so LN adoption is absolutely key for this, and there’s no doubt LN provides great utility. However, i read recently that 52% of bitcoin in wallets has not moved for the last 2 years, leading to indicate store of value usage. It’s certainly interesting to see where it goes, and how it is utilised in the future, either way I think LN is important for the future of bitcoin. I don’t try and orange pill people, but today I had a work colleague spend an hour asking about bitcoin, and then my wife asked for help to buy her first btc. Adoption is happening

Mentions:#LN

No. It might give you some insight into LN adoption though

Mentions:#LN

> The sign literally says that it's not being hidden in prices at all, it's taken directly from "profit". Unless you're implying the business owner is being dishonest, which doesn't generate a ton of sympathy or empathy. Lol, you think that is any different? Do you think shoppes across the country are going broke providing card benefits at their own expense? Obviously, if credit card fees are not explicitly shown, they have to be baked into prices, the same way taxes are if they are not explicitly shown. > And if they do have differential pricing, it still makes sense to pay with a card because my rebate is based on total amount including tax, so paying with a card refunds 5% of sales taxes, which would be greater than even a 5% price discount. If you actually receive a 5% refund, then the card is charging the merchant significantly more than that. Most real life sustained "rewards" a 1% or 2%, while short term promotional ones can be higher. In short: you are just getting back money that came out of your own pocket, minus some fees and overheads. There is no magic free wealth created by the credit card industry. Any compensating cash discount, would be, by definition, more valuable than your card rewards. > Edit: More importantly for me, even if these amounts worked out the same, handling cash is disgusting and is far more work for me to manage than a billing statement. Welcome to bitcoin, electronic cash. With LN, its faster and lower total cost to handle too. I hope that LN can quickly kill off the credit card industry, or force it to charge lower fees and give merchants better terms at the least.

Mentions:#LN

Yesterday I used for first time LN in the wallet Exodus without problems.

Mentions:#LN

BTC 2015, I don't remember how I found it, but I remember the magical Internet money experience of '15. Bitcoin had the UX first, and blew it by stagnating thanks to blocksize wars and betting everything on LN. Every stupid centralized payment app now has superior UX. Bitcoin, the invention will live on in this or that blockchain. Evolve or become obsolete. Others will grow the network effect. Others will age, too, so accumulated Lindy effect of BTC will become diluted. Others will evolve. BTC will become obsolete. Humanity never settled on "the one" anything, and it's free market competition out there. We're not asking BTC maxis for permission to build competing blockchains.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

I do have a channels.backup file. I thought this was just for channel information, didn't think it was related to the seed. (Because Zap failed to open any channels, the funds are currently lost on-chain as opposed to in LN) It also looks like lightning wallets use completely different seed logic to 'normal' on-chain wallets?? I never knew that. Thanks for taking a look, hopefully this information is what I need to regain access.

Mentions:#LN

It already does if you route payments with an LN node

Mentions:#LN

Hi, I used before Electrum but not for LN only on-chain so complexity will not be a problem. I Will give a chance for the LN too. Thanks!

Mentions:#LN

What? Didn’t Ethereum got a higher ATM?? I’m diversified with some projects. Anyway, besides eth there ha been 3rd generation blockchains that have very interesting trilemma propositions. For example, I’m being a Solana investor since early 2021. After all happened it’s still x8. And with a bright future. Still heavily discounted because too many people are ill informed about it. Which is great because it provides an opportunity. You are the gambler if you are only invested in bitcoin. A coin with its own problems. Halvings that are reducing the security every 4 years but people are delusional about finding excuses about it that don’t make sense. Miners are quite concentrated and mostly in hands of companies that have the economies of scale to be profitable. 4 mining pools with more than 50% hash that are owned by 3 companies, 2 of them Chinese. And a value based on a false “store of value” narrative that doesn’t make economic sense as I explained. The asset is useless as most people cannot interact directly because it would clog. And LN is much more centralized than any other project that you hate so much. So the only way to get higher bitcoin prices is convincing more people to own but never use bitcoin directly, good thing that most people wil just hold it in a CEX.

Mentions:#ATM#LN#CEX

any chance i can get a few LN sats to test out my first ever lightning wallet

Mentions:#LN

These are the best options for self sovereignity: Blixt and Zeus+own node. A step down are wallets that manage channels for you, but the company's node actually knows then where all your tx go - these are Phoenix and Breeze. They are an acceptable solution for people who don't want to manage inbound/outbound liquidity of their own nodes. Wallet of Satoshi is fully custodial, blue wallet is a bit weird when it comes to the LN. Muun has excellent advertising and UX, but is actually kinda bad, look up submarine swaps for more info. They were also against fullRBF, which is no bueno from me.

Mentions:#LN

These are the best options for self sovereignity: Blixt and Zeus+own node. A step down are wallets that manage channels for you, but the company's node actually knows then where all your tx go - these are Phoenix and Breeze. They are an acceptable solution for people who don't want to manage inbound/outbound liquidity of their own nodes. Wallet of Satoshi is fully custodial, blue wallet is a bit weird when it comes to the LN. Muun has excellent advertising and UX, but is actually kinda bad, look up submarine swaps for more info. They were also against fullRBF, which is no bueno from me.

Mentions:#LN

Blixt Wallet is non custodial and fully open source. It’s quite good if you just need a LN wallet. If you need a wallet that can manage your own LN node, Zeus is my pick.

Mentions:#LN

You are not supposed to actually use LN… just use it as an argument against claim that bitcoin is technically incapable of supporting any significant transaction traffic.

Mentions:#LN

Congrats on the move, it's never too late. ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Don't listen crypto influencers, please. Most of them get paid to promote shitcoins. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick and read this short guide, please: **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, nor next week.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least first year**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding garbage tokens just because someone on YT told them to. Going DCA is probably the best approach, IMHO. Bitcoin to me, is a savings account. If I have some spare cash, I exchange it for SATs. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. If there's a 10% drop in the price since my last buy, I usually double my buy. This [DCA calculator](https://dcabtc.com/) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. Now, don't buy a fake Bitcoin at etoro or similar, get the real thing. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. A few good wallet choices: [https://blockstream.com/green/](https://blockstream.com/green/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial (although, the Lightning part is custodial! - unless connected to your node) [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. Lightning wallets to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for very small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - rapidly becoming my favourite LN wallet [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill or LN Pizza [https://muun.com/](https://muun.com/) \- Muun, simple and elegant LN wallet Hardware Wallets (to store larger amounts): [https://trezor.io/](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. [https://coldcardwallet.com/](https://coldcardwallet.com/) \- ColdCard is currently the safest and most recommended here. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend as not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, etc. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different than the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey.

Hey man, simply suggest bitcoin + LN to him. Can’t expect everyone to know everything.

Mentions:#LN

>These fees will likely be much lower than the current block rewards Current fees alone are exponentially higher than block rewards when block rewards were 50 BTC, 25 BTC, 12.5 BTC. Block subsidy dropped from 50 to 25, then 25 to 12.5, then 12.5 to 6.25. That's an 87.5% drop! Was it a problem? No. Why? It didn't happen overnight. Somehow the value of subsidy + fee rewards is significantly higher every time it drops. How come hashrate doubled since ATH last November while dollar price dropped 75%? Isn't that really weird? From [innovations in energy efficiency](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/zf10j5/ethereums_energy_switch_saves_as_much_electricity/iz9ibgw/) as bitcoin is being integrated into cost, incentive dynamics improving the economics of energy systems. This is going to accelerate on a scale you cannot even imagine within the next 5 years. I actually get paid to heat my home. Who doesn't want to? Anyone who brings this up as some kind of flaw is naive as to how bitcoin works, they keep one variable constant while changing everything else and confuse themselves by comparing subsidy + fee rewards to original 50 BTC. When subsidy was 50 BTC, the price was 0. How is 50 bitcoin to 25 bitcoin any different from 20 million sats to 10 million sats ? The network is not adjusting from 50 bitcoin to 10 million sats subsidy. The short answer is, bitcoin network can autonomously adjust to all realities till the end of time. This is the great innovation. The difficulty adjustment is Satoshi's masterstroke. Through every 4-year period, the network organically adapts to a new subsidy and fee reward composition and eventually after several decades transitions to fee only model. In the meantime, block space efficiency keeps scaling sufficiently that block rewards are still tens of millions of satoshis as they are now. This is what it is today right now, tens of millions of satoshis ranging from 20 to 50 million satoshis even with very low fee rates. Then you can account for any other potential revenue streams in future such as drivechains, spacechains or similar. Taproot also already supports on chain batch verification once fully adopted. Many don't seem to know this. CISA, musig2, channel factories etc. all these contribute to both scaling and block space efficiency. Essentially, your transactions are better optimized for block space usage but you may still pay a similar fee as determined by fee market or possibly even slightly higher. 20 years from now, the base layer will be mainly used for large settlements only like buying a car or a house, by governments and corporations. Your day to day retail transactions will be on Lightning and other layers. Lightning will never be suitable for large settlements but at the same time it's perfect for day to day payments and micropayments offering [privacy similar to cash payments](https://twitter.com/LN_Capital/status/1614308872973344768). We should also remember that the only reason there wasn't an actual block size increase in 2017 was because it wasn't required! This was [decided by Bitcoin users](https://www.amazon.com/Blocksize-War-Control-Bitcoins-Protocol/dp/B096CLR1SS) through UASF against the interests of miners and corporate actors. SegWit scaled virtual block size almost 3 times without increasing actual block size. It was an optimization of block space usage. SegWit adoption rate is close to 90% now. At some point block size will certainly increase if it made sense and as storage, bandwidth become cheaper, cost to run a node will be same as today or even less possibly. At some point, there's also no price in dollars but value in purchasing power measured against goods and services. Fix your unit of account and think in satoshis. Fees alone make up tens of millions of satoshis already now. The value of subsidy + fee reward composition finds the right balance during every 4 year period when subdity halves. Bitcoin is designed such that difficulty, hashrate, fees, block rewards all find equilibrium halving after halving perpetually. There's no sudden shock, it's gradual, organic, and naturally adjusts without human interference. [This](https://bitcoinmagazine.com/technical/bitcoin-security-without-mining-subsidy) article from Dillon Healy and [this](https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5de588aa3e9c044c1ad8cb59/t/6329b32325b7205aea8e14f8/1663677220899/Bitcoin+Transaction+Fees+Final+Draft.pdf) report from Blockware are both worth reading on the subject.

Mentions:#BTC#LN#CLR

Surprised you're getting these downvotes - a lot of NGU energy around here lately. Mod of r/TheLightningNetwork here: **Bitcoin is money**. Start using LN and you'll understand. Especially as a business - if you've ever signed up with a payment processor you know what kind of a special hell that is. The trustless nature of Bitcoin and LN remove nearly all of the expense and pain of online money. It's a matter of time.

Mentions:#LN

They ended up sending a regular bitcoin transaction to send it. I never said cashapp was a wallet, but it kind of is accurate to call it that. It's just a custodial wallet. I realize it wasn't LN itself that blocked their transaction obviously, it was cashapp. I just thought it was an interesting anecdote to share, relating to how exchanges are restricting mixer use; it appears some also want to restrict where users can send their coins, and looking at the IP address in LN addresses is an easy way for them to do that.

Mentions:#LN

Ive been investing since 2017 and overperforming Bitcoin. I dont know if you noticed, but Bitcoin is losing market share over time. Read the original Bitcoin paper. Right now, it's a galaxy far away from the reality. Bitcoin cannot be used as a P2P payment system because some bitcoin Maximalist became cultist, and evolving and improving bitcoin became an heresy. The LN is a can of worms, and a failure of adoption, both in volume and in tx count. There is x100 more wrapped bitcoin in ethereum for a good reason. Because people don't want to use Bitcoin blockchain. And thats a good thing! because when people actually tried to use it, it clogged, and fees skyrocketed to more than 100 USD per tx. Thats why the bitcoin sub is cultist, they want you to hold, and never use it. 200k daily tx for an asset held by +100M people means that almost nobody actually use it. By the way. Read what a store of value means in economics, and you will find, it doesnt apply to Bitcoin. Gold has a negative correlation with the stock market, the opposite of Bitcoin. In case of great uncertainty, like March 2020, Bitcoin collapsed, which means, it isnt useful as a store of value.

Mentions:#LN

I understand, the exchange (like everyone else) is able to see the history. But not if the trace is broken by using LN. Cashapp isn't a wallet, it's a custodial, KYC'd account. If the person used a non custodial wallet like Blixt, it wouldn't happened.

Mentions:#LN

I wouldn't know, haven't seen any posts about that specific scenario yet. The guy I'm referencing was using a mixer website. But I imagine it's possible, the precedent is there. But speaking of blocking and LN, I know someone who tried to send using LN to a porn website, and cashapp blocked the transaction "for their protection" it said. Probably had something to do with the IP address the website had in their LN address, maybe it was a Russian IP address.

Mentions:#LN

I'm trying to say, if used properly, in non custodial way, the exchange won't be able to see the history of the coins at all. A possible future AML on LN will be hard to implement but that's a topic for another discussion.

Mentions:#LN

Wasabi, Joinmarket and then LN :)

Mentions:#LN

First, I don't cash out, I spend. And even if I had to, there's more than one exchange to serve me. Second, the exchange won't be able to see the Coinjoin due to using LN.

Mentions:#LN

My understanding is that sending BTC over LN is essentially private, but receiving those BTC not so much.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

Hi, thanks for the comment, I discuss Lighting Network in the background segment of the post at the start, LN is a really great project.

Mentions:#LN

I run a medium sized LN node and I've never felt the desire to use a watchtower

Mentions:#LN

Why would watchtowers be needed for LN?

Mentions:#LN

I’ll be accepting BTC on LN at our ice cream shop when we open jn March! Not sure how much volume we’ll do but plan to add our place to all the BTC maps out there.

Mentions:#BTC#LN

Taxes is a good point. Wonder how that would work. Pay on the LN eliminates large fees.

Mentions:#LN

Cashapp has a free LN option if more than .001.

Mentions:#LN

Congrats on the move, it's never too late. ONLY INVEST MONEY YOU CAN AFFORD TO LOSE. Don't listen crypto influencers, please. Most of them get paid to promote shitcoins. Invest in your knowledge, learn about Bitcoin as much as you can. The Bitcoin Standard book is a must read. Also, **don't reply any DMs**, promising to buy Bitcoin from them or get rich quick and read this short guide, please: **Price wise, nobody knows what the price will be tomorrow, nor next week.** **Try "Bitcoin ONLY" strategy for at least first year**, you'll sleep much better. Newcomers lose so much money, holding garbage tokens just because someone on YT told them to. Going DCA is probably the best approach, IMHO. Bitcoin to me, is a savings account. If I have some spare cash, I exchange it for SATs. Once a week works best for me, but I'm getting paid weekly. If there's a 10% drop in the price since my last buy, I usually double my buy. This [DCA calculator](https://dcabtc.com/) might help to decide what will work best for you. In a few years, even $10 dollars a month can make a massive difference. Now, don't buy a fake Bitcoin at etoro or similar, get the real thing. Register at a proper exchange and buy real Bitcoin. Any of these will do [https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin](https://bitcoin-only.com/get-bitcoin) Install (or buy - in case you're getting Bitcoin in Thousands of $) one or more of these wallets. A few good wallet choices: [https://blockstream.com/green/](https://blockstream.com/green/) \- Top Security Features, Open Source and Non-Custodial [https://bluewallet.io](https://bluewallet.io/) \- excellent, easy to use wallet, Open Source and Non-Custodial (although, the Lightning part is custodial! - unless connected to your node) [https://electrum.org](https://electrum.org/) \- Solid choice, Open Source and Non-Custodial, one of the oldest and most trusted Bitcoin Wallets. Lightning wallets to consider (cheaper and faster transactions, great for very small amounts): [https://phoenix.acinq.co/](https://phoenix.acinq.co/) \- Phoenix [https://blixtwallet.github.io/](https://blixtwallet.github.io/) \- Blixt - rapidly becoming my favourite LN wallet [https://breez.technology](https://breez.technology/) \- Breez - excellent POS for small business owners as well as integrated Bitrefill or LN Pizza [https://muun.com/](https://muun.com/) \- Muun, simple and elegant LN wallet Hardware Wallets (to store larger amounts): [https://trezor.io/](https://trezor.io/) \- Easy to use, no matter how new in Bitcoin you're. [https://coldcardwallet.com/](https://coldcardwallet.com/) \- ColdCard is currently the safest and most recommended here. There's also Ledger, but I wouldn't recommend as not fully open source, keep and already leaked customers' details, etc. Whatever wallet you'll decide to buy, purchase DIRECTLY from the manufacturer, no eBay, no Amazon. Make sure the device is NOT preset, and you will generate your own seed words. Write them down on any piece of paper as well as the receiving address. Now wipe the wallet and generate a new wallet. If the seed words are different than the first set, you're safe to use it. Find an option to set a passphrase and use it. This will boost the security to another level. Never store the seed words and passphrase together. Use a different medium if possible. If somebody finds both, they'll be able to steal your coin. This little device will hold the keys to your money, that's the reason why you have to be a bit more careful. Also, no worries, if it breaks, you can replace it - as long as you keep your seed words and passphrase(s) safe. Welcome to the rabbit hole and don't hesitate to ask if you have any questions anytime during your Bitcoin journey.

You can send 1 sat over the Lightning Network. In fact you can send less than 1 sat. (Your wallet is glossing over that LN's native units are actually millisatoshis.) You will have to pay a routing fee, which may eat up quite a large fraction of that sat. Realize that 1 sat is currently worth about 1/50th of one U.S. cent, so you're really wasting your time.

Mentions:#LN

This is more or less how LN works, one on-chain transaction points to the channel (opening the channel), so to speak. And another one closes it with the final result of the balances.

Mentions:#LN