POA

Grave_Warden

I am interested in learning more. Can you give any more thoughts on this - for instance what is POA? are there any chains out there that no one is sing and could be bought to repurpose? ​ I like avalanche's subchain, and build an L3 on it, but if i could have my own l1/l2 to start that seems best.

Grave_Warden

I am interested in learning more. Can you give any more thoughts on this - for instance what is POA? are there any chains out there that no one is sing and could be bought to repurpose? ​ I like avalanche's subchain, and build an L3 on it, but if i could have my own l1/l2 to start that seems best.

shayaaa

That’s not generally what it means when they refer to a blockchains immutability. A blockchain (unless POA or similar) is immutable by nature and you cannot manipulate data that’s already in the blockchain.

ziggyzago

Coinbase just added Vet to its learn and earn program. About $12 in Vet per user. It’s a great POA blockchain. It’s never failed. Just because less people use it does not mean it doesn’t have a place in the crypto ecosystem.

filenotfounderror

You need to get POA over your dad finances

nomdeplume_alias

This is why I now have full control over my 85 yr old Parent's banking. They willingly handed it over, and I have full POA. They don't even know the passwords anymore and 100% trust me - which they should. Even then, the bank RBC made me jump through many hoops (even with my Parents physically there and approving of my decisions in person at the bank) when I attempted to liquidate their bullshit mutual funds with high MERs. It took months. They'll do anything to hold on to 'their' money.

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Binance, the cryptocurrency exchange, has pledged $3 million in BNB (Binance Coin) for earthquake relief efforts in Morocco. The Marrakech-Safi Province recently experienced the country's largest earthquake in over a century. Binance Charity has set up a relief fund in BNB, and all Moroccan residents are eligible to claim a voucher. The funds will be distributed based on Proof of Address (POA) submitted by users. Binance has also launched an emergency appeal to raise additional funds for the humanitarian crisis in the affected province. The appeal accepts various cryptocurrencies, including Bitcoin, Ethereum, and BNB. The CEO of Binance, Changpeng Zhao, expressed support for the Moroccan people on Twitter. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.

_TheWolfOfWalmart_

I didn't really research, I just looked at the description on coinmarketcap. >Audius is a decentralized music streaming protocol initially built on POA network, but now living on Solana. Audius was launched to remedy the inefficiencies of the music industry, which is plagued by intransparent music rights ownership and intermediaries standing between artists and their audience. >Audius aims to align the interests of artists, fans, and node operators through its platform powered by its native AUDIO token. Artists can upload music, stored and distributed by content and discovery nodes, that fans can listen to for free. Currently, Audius rewards content creators through rewards like featuring in the weekly trending lists. In the future, it plans to integrate stablecoins for artists to offer paid content, as well as artist tokens that give fans the ability to access exclusive content, potentially cooperating with platforms like Rally.

LynxAndLinum

Maybe one of these? Audius: “Audius is a decentralized music streaming protocol initially built on POA network, but now living on Solana. Audius was launched to remedy the inefficiencies of the music industry, which is plagued by intransparent music rights ownership and intermediaries standing between artists and their audience.” https://audius.co/ https://coinmarketcap.com/link/currencies/audius Choon: “Choon is a music streaming service for independent musicians and digital payments ecosystem powered by the Ethereum blockchain. It is designed to solve some of the music industry's most fundamental problems, such as getting more money to the artists, faster payments, and a fully transparent royalty accounting system.” https://www.dappt.io/app/choon Resonate: Resonate is a cooperative music streaming service that uses blockchain. “Pay as you play with no monthly subscription fees. Artist centred and user-centric stream2own payments.” https://resonate.coop/ Mycelia: A project by Imogen Heap that aims to empower artists by using blockchain to enable licensing and things. http://myceliaformusic.org/ Ujo Music: “Ujo Music is an Ethereum based, ConsenSys backed music software services company for the modern economic landscape of music.” https://blog.ujomusic.com/ Musicoin: “Musicoin (MUSIC) is a smart blockchain and music streaming platform.” The goal is to allow artists to receive instant payment in MUSIC for their work without intermediaries. https://musicoin.org/

UXNomad

As a designer and product guy, I've been working on these design issues in crypto for a long time now. So, I'll write you all a book on it. :) I have some good news, stick around until the end. I will lay out the most obvious answer that is in plain sight. If you can't wait, scroll down. \---- Previously, I worked on one of the first BTC e-commerce solutions (way too early), self-sovereign identity systems, and risk systems, and more recently, am the co-founder of an options exchange. I've been confronted with most facets of crypto usability issues. \---- **Centralized** **Onboarding (CEX)** \-- With centralized exchanges, there are often unavoidable valleys of death in the customer journey due to compliance. The biggest valley of death is the collection of (POA), Proof of Address documentation that is no older than 3 months. Ever notice that Fintechs seem to excel in onboarding new customers and generally have higher digital product standards? A major reason Fintechs excel in onboarding is *'login with your bank account'*. There are solutions like Plaid, and the Open Banking Initiative, which allow users to 'login with their bank account' when they sign up for new apps, and initially sidestep (until transaction thresholds are hit) the KYC process. This is why onboarding with the Cash app is so easy, '*login with your bank account'*. Some in crypto (CB) have 'had' this ability, but most CEX do not have it. **Thus, the amount steps a user must take in most CEX scenarios is far greater, and has far more friction than the normal fintech app user.** *This complexity is a significant barrier to improving onboarding and adoption for the average retail user.* Especially in developing countries where many users may not even be able to produce a POA document. In theory, self-sovereign identity systems could help address this issue, but only if they are globally recognized. \---- **Decentralized** **Onboarding (DEX/ dApps)** \-- non-tech savvy users are overwhelmed and instantly barraged with many new, and unfamiliar concepts. Many of which, can have severe gravity later on as you use the applications, ex., MetaMask. Users must understand the concept of the wallet itself. They must understand the importance of private keys. Initial setup, they must then understand how to secure a private key. Then -- the user must use Ethereum and must understand "gas fees" - "how much do I spend on gas", as fees can fluctuate wildly. The simple act of copying and pasting can be fraught with error, users have to be careful in these scenarios. Interacting with DEXs, again, is a new concept. Users must understand concepts like liquidity pools, token swapping, and slippage. All this complexity makes the environment ripe for scammers. Users are highly susceptible to phishing scams and malicious websites that can trick users into revealing their private keys. But wait, there's more... Then there are network configurations for different DEXs, "Should I use Binance smart chain or Polygon", again a poor user experience. Transaction failures - this happens all the time as well due to low gas fees and smart contract errors. This is difficult for users to understand. **Now, let's rewind the tape:** \- Understanding wallets \- Private keys \- Private key management \- Ethereum, gas fees \- Address copying and pasting \- Security concerns, phishing \- Network configurations \- Transaction failures \- Lack of customer support You can wrap the most beautiful UI you want around these weighty concepts, but the facts remain, a lot of the user experience issues are at the "system level" in DEFI not at the interface level. \---- **Immutable Transactions and Affordances** Designing for 'Immutable Transactions' comes down to one thing, *Affordances.* The term affordances was popularized in the book "*The Design of Everyday Things*" by **Donald Norman**. In this case, affordance is design elements that help the user intuitively understand that the actions they are taking are irreversible. **The standard playbook for affordances:** \- **Confirmation prompts:** these are the most familiar. These are supposed to be clear prompts that ask a user to confirm their action. The prompt acts as an "affordance" making it clear (in theory) the transaction is final. \- **Visual cues:** colors, sizes, shapes, etc., can be used to signal the finality of a transaction. For example, red could be used on a send button to signal caution. \- **Progressive disclosure**: information overload is a major issue in crypto, by revealing information progressively, users are not overwhelmed and can better understand the gravity of their actions. \- **Simulated transactions**: this could be part of onboarding for new users who are put into a 'test mode' by default where they practice making transactions first. This helps users get familiar before they make real transactions. \- **Undo option for non-final actions:** allowing users to reverse/ modify inputs. An intuitive "back" button is an example. \- **Time box actions:** transactions could theoretically be time-boxed before being finalized, which could make the transaction reversible. All these plays come down to one thing though. The user must understand the gravity of their actions. People don't take time to read, they hastily click on things, and they sign transactions on "real looking" sites..

Fox_n_Roll

there is also POA. If You want to compare the mechanisms You cn follow this link: [POW POS POA](https://www.rain.com/learn/pow-pos-poa-the-most-popular-blockchain-consensus-mechanisms)

altcoinkid

Is nobody even going to mention VET who upgraded to their POA 2.0 last year and hasn’t ever gone down… ever?!

Danthehat6969

Do they give you a seed phrase on these DeFi wallets at places like CDC to make it look like you have control over your assets when, in fact, you have zero POA? It’s not exactly ethical or confidence building when the crypto world needs very strong and transparent ‘good guys’…

lj26ft

FBA federated byzantine agreement or proof of association as it's apparently been updated to requires EVERY node submit transactions for proposed ledgers and requires 80% to agree to move up to the next round of voting until it reaches a super majority validator that submits the final ledger. I've never understood why people believe the technology is centralized. Conversely POS and POW both allow single entity block proposals which has caused all kinds of shenanigans with miners mevs. Block reorganization prioritization or inclusion/exclusion is fucking impossible with POA.

ajnsd619

I was contracted for 3 months last year (Oct-Jan) by Fireblocks as a research specialist for: \- Project Cedar \- Limited Liability Network My C/A Agreement covers Cedar, but not LLN. Project Hamilton (MIT people in charge of CBDC tech) proposed a proof of authority (POA) protocol as the L1. The banks hated the idea. Were almost unanimously opposed to the prototype. They argued a POA with user wallets that enable \- Holder accounts \- p2p payments \- bill pay \- direct to merchant pay threaten their business! The Dallas Fed supports banking partners. They wrote a research paper to counter the phase 1 blockchain protocol. Their proposal centers on disintermediation. This is a dangerous precedent. In summary, disintermediation is a bank-sponsored plan that argues that running a digital currency system is too difficult for just the government to handle themselves. Authority needs to be shared (disintermediated). Banks suggest they need to be involved if USD wishes to compete with e-rmb. The US govt is so scared of e-rmb they're considering enacting this crazy plan. Please be mindful of the threats. I'll be starting a new project w/Hamilton next week. Everything I've posted is technically public. It's hidden under layers of other documents and semi-hidden links but it's legally compliant. I couldn't find my copy of the Dallas Fed paper, but i'll locate it today and post it.

CrazyEntertainment86

I think you need free money (0% interest or close to it) to get people to put money is high risk speculative assets. Without that most of the smart money sits in bonds paying 7-9% mostly tax free for munis and crypto stagnates. Things like movement to POA or POS will help the value prop for many coins but I think it’s going to be a challenging few years.

OnlyOCfromThisOP

**************** Do formal estate planning, provide the info to your trustee or POA, don’t tell your spouse right away. Would recommend waiting 5 years to ensure love naturally develops without the knowledge of the money to ensure it is real. ***************

Astrochrono

My assigned POA will make a series of posts on r/cc that will eventually lead someone to my seed phrases. Whomever gets to it first will keep it all.

craigallen16

Fastest feeless L1 blockchain: Apex Speed: 150k TPS Best feature: Anti-Bot Gas fee: 0 Native Coin: Omnia Consensus: POA Scalability: Up to 10k nodes ***True Enterprise Blockchain Technology***

magnetichira

This is a well written criticism of the scaling Bitcoin via the Lightning Network. LN is an example of a state channel. State channels have strong liveness assumptions, are vulnerable to hot wallet key exploits, and crypto-economic attacks. What is important to note is that scaling by layers _heavily_ depends on the implementation of the base layer (or Layer 1). A more flexible base layer opens the design space to better implementations of layer 2 networks. In the case of Ethereum, there are several types of Layer 2 networks implemented, each having different levels of trust assumptions: ## Side Chains - They run parallel to Ethereum main chain and have their own consensus mechanism - They do not inherit security from the Ethereum main chain - Use case: low value transactions, NFTs etc, - Examples: SKALE, Polygon PoS, POA Network ## Optimistic Rollups - Tx is rolled up when a batch is committed to the main chain, with a Merkle root hash presented as a proof - Include a wait period (usually a week) for fraud proofing - Use case: moderate security transactions - Examples: Optimism, Arbitrum ## ZK-Rollups - Each bunched transaction committed to the main chain comes with a corresponding zero knowledge proof - Txs are not committed to the main chain until the SNARK proof has been generated - No wait period - Use case: High value transactions - Examples: Starkware, zkSync, Polygon Hermez

ziggyzago

That’s on you. VET is still a great project. POA has space in the crypto community.

Matthemp

Bro Vet is dead . All their partnerships were exaggerated and due to the heavily centralized Chinese POA system and the fact that it will never be listed on Coinbase due to the Chinese issue and the generating Thor issue

Ainz-Ol-Gon

Binance asked for POA for which I had to provide bank statement. I don't know why i did that because i only have like $4 in total lol

Office_Sadist

Ive worked on various financial products and have been part of many fraud investigations. Your dad is showing signs of slowing down. I was joking about the Nigerian prince, but fraudsters are making very, very convincing attempts at defrauding the elderly. I have met many sharp older people who were duped by convincing emails or phone calls. Your dad demonstrated that he does not know when it is appropriate to give out sensitive information like passwords. You would be doing him a favor by being a second line of defense. Unlike crypto wallets, investment custodians are going to take a few days to process transactions. You could easily prevent the theft of his retirement savings by receiving notifications and calling the bank to stop the transaction. You will not be allowed to do that on his behalf if you are not his POA. Seriously consider it. It becomes an enormous headache if you don’t act fast enough. Once the money is stolen, you have to fight with the bank for them to cover it and they are ruthless. Its a much simpler process for you to watch his back and be able to act on his behalf.

Office_Sadist

Have you considered getting POA over those? Whats stopping him from liquidating his retirement accounts and sending them to a Nigerian prince?

asterics002

Vechain is always sitting there, working quietly in the background. Adoption could be better, marketing could be better, but they always take the slow and thorough route to do things. The tech works, the network has never had any issues with uptime or capacity and POA 2 is just around the corner.

GearCentric

So sorry for your loss. Crappy situation that often happens. You left out a lot of details for folks to feel pity that you didn't inherit. Medicaid does not go after the "kid" unless she/he is your dependent. The look back is 3 years for medicaid. You, your mom or someone with POA signed the paperwork for the $15K nursing home. I disagree with you on signing over the home to kids...I've seen too many sell the home as soon as the parent needs caregiving. Medicare and supplemental are golden - generally the supplemental will cover a certain number of days in "rehab" facility and then more if the patient is improving. It's a hard decision...Folks must weigh if sacrificing their lifestyle is worth the time/energy to take on caregiving for their aging parent. Be grateful that your mom had the resources to look after her needs without burdening you financially.

brogletroll

What’s wrong with VET? It’s POA?

Fillicia

It's mostly just a geth fork with additional POA fairy dust on top. It's open sourced indeed and I'm even wondering if they could close source and distribute a fork of a gpl v3.0 project

smile9876

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

Tsrdrum

Fair enough, that’s a totally legit perspective. In my experience the 21 BPs are sufficiently decentralized to avoid geographic or jurisdictional fragility, but it’s for sure not as decentralized Block Production as something like Monero or to a lesser extent Bitcoin. Still more decentralized than POA, and quite robust as a decentralized computing platform, if complete decentralization isn’t a necessity for your particular use case, and functional decentralization is sufficient.

CPcrypto

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

CPcrypto

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

CPcrypto

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

azaxslo

Any VeChain lovers out here? Prepared for POA 2.0? Still up for a magic 1,5usd? Best layer one blockchain

Big-Truth-2395

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

Big-Truth-2395

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

Big-Truth-2395

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

Big-Truth-2395

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

Big-Truth-2395

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

Big-Truth-2395

PulseNet is a new Dual Layer 1 Blockchain that is currently in development, it aims to be one of the most efficient, widely-used cryptocurrencies in the DeFi space. PulseNet will operate Two Blockchains, a secure, energy-efficient POSA network with our unique PulseDex (Dex/Locker Hybrid) and an equally efficient POA network geared toward Business & Logistics, this means we can reach two different markets both looking for different things, to use the Private Network, one must first hold the PulseNet Coin which ensures we provide an ecosystem that benefits everyone. Developers will be encouraged to build on both platforms through the PulseNet Developer Reward Scheme and Our innovative PulseNet Business Subscription Plans. To attract attention to the project, a token, PulseNet was released on the BSC and is now available to buy in the usual places. This is a rare opportunity to be part of something unique and with so much potential from the very beginning. TG: https://t.me/pulsenet Website: PulseNet.io

imaguy81

Dont make me laugh, this hasnt disputed anything i've said. Solo mining is a joke. Pools are a thing. All the equipment needed to mine efficently is controlled and owned by the richest people in the world. The energy cost to do pointless work is also criminal when that energy could be used to power homes for people and do something productive. This is not an equitable nor ethical situation at all. Bitcoin was great at showing there is a better way but it's the first attempt and thus arguably our worst go at this. Whilst i never see it going away i dont believe for a second it's the right end state or POA for crypto currency. Further advances will come and they will solve many of the problems i've mentioned.

Fullback22x

Wrong, withdrawals are pushed in the cappella upgrade NOT Shanghai hard fork. Link: https://github.com/ethereum/consensus-specs/blob/4d10a792a0d2970ebcea358b4a6232c5462111c5/specs/capella/beacon-chain.md You will essentially be able to “churn” your ETH before the upgrade and withdraw from the validator set. You WONT be able to withdraw into an external wallet until capella is pushed(current estimates are “shortly after merge”) per the devs. Not only that, it takes me 4 phone calls to binance, Kraken, coinbase, and LIDO to capture 56% of the chain/validator set. Effectively being less decentralized than Solana and more akin to BSC POA than a true dPOS. In addition to that, we have only 1 deposit address for staking. Shall that address ever be compromised for any reason then we are all fucked. Shall a malicious upgrade be pushed to Prysm 40-50% of all validators would be slashed out until found. Source for validator concentration: https://pools.invis.cloud Lastly, even if you were right (your not) shanghai is slated for 6 months after beacon chain merge(phase0). But thank you for nitpicking a post and disregarding everything I’ve said due to a false pretense your echo chamber has provided you. Before you say “nuh uh”, the source above is from Danny Ryan. You know, the lead dev on the upgrade and entire merge.

MastersinScience

Eth Classic, a big favorite of mine. Code is Law. No Greedy Developers, Small Cap POW POA POW ✊ 👊 🤛

Giga79

Having high stake in POS in Ethereum doesn't mean that you get more voting weight. 1 node = 1 vote, and it doesn't cost any ETH to run a node in POS. >Initially investors and developers can essentially just sit on their holdings indefinitely and control the network. As they will get rewarded more coins by just holding ( 3% to 20%). This means that a POS crypto can be controlled by a few insiders or early adopters. You make it sound like an entity taking 3% of the issuance is going to topple the network, as if miners weren't getting 150%+ for years beforehand. An entity with $100M has a way higher chance at buying-in *more than $100M* of coins through a POW farm than they'll ever have staking. And an entity with $100M in POW has a far greater ROI than an entity with $100, unlike in POS. Removing that mechanism should *reduce* the concentration of wealth. >Aa stated POS will ultimately lead to wealth retention rather than decentralization and equality. A rich person buying a POS crypto today will be a rich person tomorrow A rich person buying a POW farm today will be a rich person tomorrow. A rich person buying a POS crypto is contributing more toward network security than the same person buying a POW farm for as many dollars. The rich **always** get richer. In POS they get richer much slower, at least. Why would you design a money system where you lose money by working, and how do you expect people to use that? The fact there are incentives there to secure the network is a pro not a con.. >So the floor is open to you what's the alternative? POS for L1 and POH/POA/POHu/POW as its L2's would be the most ideal solution to me. That way every $1 paid in security contributes $1 of security on the POS base layer unlike POW. While every L2 doesn't need to have a coin so there's no extreme inflation robbing people to come up with a security budget like most chains, and then when POH/SOL stops working you have the choice to migrate to a chain that isn't offline without any loss of funds. I like the idea behind SOL a lot but it's quite stupid to build a system that assumes instant communication and then put nodes on opposite ends of the planet from each other. It's a good IDEA. And it shouldn't cost people money when it fails, or requires updates or more progress. There needs to be a *playground* where people can try crazy new things without risking all our money which is why I keep getting pulled toward L2's.

Fullback22x

Zero talk about decentralization bottlenecks and the introduction of unproven attack vectors (in the hundreds vs the proven track record of PoW.) You are just as naive as the rest of us here. And just FYI, my main use case for crypto is DeFi. I try to vet where I’m going to put my money. Don’t care if it’s POA, PoW, PoS, PoH. Don’t care, just want it to work. The deeper I look into the complexities ETH PoS brings the more uneasy I feel keeping a huge chunk of change in ETH. It’s no different than the incredibly complex DeFi smart contracts that get exploited literally every other day.

poopymcpoppy12

POA? No thanks.

PooKy2spooKy

They are getting ready for POS and POA.

CatBoy191114

"I believe in POA! ... no, not that one... "

Wonzky

Thanks for the writeup, I haven't even really heard of either POA before

thegooddocgonzo

POA is also Piece Of Ass

really_that_one

Vechain already solved these issues, particularly with POA 2.0 coming soon

smokesletgo

I haven't heard of it before today to be truthful. Giving it a look it doesn't interest me much mainly because it's an ethereum fork with POS/POA consensus mechanism attached which is much akin to the Binance Smart Chain. Much like the BSC it also has a low validator count which means there's some centralization issues too. Not saying this alone makes it a bad investment anywho, anything can be worth it at the right entrance and exit.

Gizimpy

But that’s not how any of this works. This thread is so full of misinformation. The DA doesn’t do anything in regards to setting police policy. The POA and the SFDA are at odds with each other, mostly because the POA is a POS who covers for dirty cops and the DA actually cares about charging them.

C_hase

I work at Target, the only thing that gives me hope about Target accepting BTC is that their new POA is VERY modern. Their payment types do indicate a type called "BTC" but I was told many times by people from headquarters that it meant Back To College.

Consensus-Ad-Idem

Miners energy usage moves up or down with the amount of competition between miners, not the number of transactions being validated. There are more for you to read up. CKB not just a layer. There are POS layer2, POA layer2 and any of them in the future.

RomZombi

Because my mom died and someone in the family stole $70k that was supposed to go to property tax the POA didn't pay for 3 years on the house i'm inheriting. Shit happens.

RealMercuryRain

C'mon, everyone knows that crypto sucks (at least current state of crypto). POW is not environment friendly, POS is not reliable and means nothing but the digital oligarchy, POA is centralized, which is against the idea of crypto. Virtually no crypto projects are resistant to quantum computers. ETH gas prices are high, Solana and Ada work as shit. The Bitcoin community full of psycho-maxis. 90% of crypto projects are scam. Dog coins are reincarnated tulip mania. But the stock market is overblown, the inflation is huge, governments are not trustful and the crypto looks *relatively* promising. That's why we are here.

Jachdj

@Cardano published an article about hybrid mining that everyone considers an innovative idea 💡 What you should know is that @ENQ_enecuum is already working on a hybrid consensus mechanism with POS-POW and POA. We have experience and strength in the project

BlubberWall

I wouldn’t list POA as a plus, really reduces decentralization and let’s the team control who’s running validators

JonBoy82

Basically every blockchain protocol is approaching this differently. POW/POS/DPOS/POA…

malacath10

>Is he wrong? Is Cardano broken in some fundamental way? You misunderstand the point. Here: "The issue is that Charles repeatedly denigrated other projects for releasing products in broken states." Having a product in a broken state does not preclude it from being fundamentally sound; **what** is broken matters the most. For instance, if Cardano released a wallet that had a broken UI but one could still interact with it just fine on the back end, then there is no fundamental flaw with that broken wallet. There was simply some developer oversight that can be remedied. **However**, I am going to cite [the Sundaeswap whitepaper here](https://sundaeswap.finance/papers/SundaeSwap-2021-06-01-Fundamentals.pdf), because they do make a case exposing a fundamental issue with eUTXO: >\[Page 7:\] In the UTXO model, money is tracked as a chain of custody, by pointing at a specific (unspent) output from a previous transaction, which then gets consumed as the input to a new transaction. . . The **model used by Cardano extends this** in the following ways: • The UTXO is equipped with an arbitrary datum • The script locking the funds has access to input data, known as the “redeemer,” as well as the entire transaction . . . > >\[Pages 8-9\]: A minting policy allows tracking tokens to be minted so long as the appropriate liquidity is deposited • The same minting policy allows tracking tokens to be burned so long as the appropriate liquidity is withdrawn • The validator script allows swaps to occur, so long as they respect the pricing function and fee structure . . . > >\[Page 10\]: This model, however, has a fatal flaw. **Because any given eUTXO can only be spent once, as part of one transaction, it appears as if only one swap can happen per block. On the Cardano blockchain, there is roughly one block every 20 seconds.** This would be abysmal throughput for a decentralized exchange. We will discuss **the SundaeSwap scaling solution** in a future whitepaper. First, under SundaeSwap's analysis, because Cardano in its eUTXO model **extends** this UTXO concept: "\[M\]oney is tracked as a chain of custody, by pointing at a specific (unspent) output from a previous transaction, which then **gets consumed** as the input to a new transaction," that feature is embedded in Cardano. Because the Cardano team embedded that flawed UTXO concept in Cardano's eUTXO model, Sundaeswap needed to implement their own workaround to address that embedded flaw in Cardano's eUTXO. Compare this issue, which what I claim is a fundamental flaw, to the other hypothetical flaw I described above: >For instance, if Cardano released a wallet that had a broken UI but one could still interact with it just fine on the back end, then there is no fundamental flaw with that broken wallet. There was simply some developer oversight that can be remedied. Unlike that example above, where the broken UI was not representative of a back-end issue, *here*, the swap limitations of Cardano *are* representative of a back-end issue. That back-end issue is exactly what SundaeSwap described: >This model, however, has a fatal flaw. Because any given eUTXO can only be spent once, as part of one transaction, it appears as if only one swap can happen per block. On the Cardano blockchain, there is roughly one block every 20 seconds. Because Cardano's eUTXO swap issue is not a mere front-end issue, I argue that it is a fundamental flaw, **which is in agreement with SundaeSwap's own whitepaper.** Therefore, in spite of Cardano's emphasis on using peer-reviewed research to ensure correctness upon release, Cardano managed to launch a product with a fundamental back-end issue that forces developers to do workarounds. Simply put, this move by Cardano did **not** result in correctness upon release. Any fixes that come after will mirror exactly what you cited Vitalik does: to "break things" along the course of development. Further, regarding the following: >You're dead wrong about everything you just said. Go back to his original whiteboard video. Cardano has been designed from the outset to be completely modular with not only composable L2s but hybrid proofs (POW/POA/PO-whatever running as sidechains on Cardano) integrated. I don't know where you got any of this but it is 100% wrong. I admit, I'm mistaken about Cardano's stance on modular architecture. They deserve credit for adopting the modular approach. However, [you are also mistaken about the composability of ETH rollups](https://polynya.medium.com/addressing-common-rollup-misconceptions-eba9d758707e): >**A rollup remains fully composable,** even if it’s settled across multiple data shards or external data availability sources. > > Further, we have the possibilities of internally-sharded rollups that can come resolve to a single composable state with a single proof. > > Like L1s are not composable with each other, so are rollups systems not composable with each other. But there are many interoperability solutions live like Hop, Connext, cBridge and Biconomy, and many more in the works. **Indeed, there’s amazing innovations like dAMM that lets multiple zkRollups share liquidity! In addition, eventually we can have internally sharded zk rollups which retain full synchronous composability — a feat nigh impossible on L1s.** > > Tl;dr: Rollup composability is superior to L1s. Overall, I know you're invested in the Cardano community, and for that reason I advise you to diligently read the whitepapers of dApps launching there. Particularly those of the DEXs, because they will all have to address this specific issue with Cardano's eUTXO, and it's important you know their method so you can see whether it sacrifices decentralization/security for speed.

eagler92

Yes. 101 Authority Nodes and only a few are known. POA2.0 addresses some of that, but the unknown ANs is to some (including me) one of, if not the biggest gripe with VeChain. Oh and price action haha.

Egge_

Maybe because this is a bitcoin sub, and the more your write, the more problems of centralisation i see with "PAD"... Okay, last try: Is a PAD network a network with a distributed ledger (every node has the transaction history)? If it is, data needs time to travel through the network (propagation). Now imagine this: I have a UTXO that can be unlocked and spent using a key. I build two transaction spending the same UTXO, but the receiver is different in each transaction. Now i publish these transaction to two different nodes of the network at the same time. The nodes will start to relay the TX to other nodes until one node receives both tx. How do we decide which transaction will be part of the transaction history? In Bitcoin this problem is solved by POW. The TX that gets included in a block first, is the valid one, the other one will be dropped. Bitcoin can do this, because its blockchain includes a timestamp-consensus (thats why the bitcoin blockchain is also called "timechain"). From what i understand PAD has no blockchain and therefore no sense of time. Therefore this decision cannot be made by looking at timestamps... This is the question i asked like 6 posts ago. Your idea seems very flawed to me. Just like POA, POS, PODA and all the other marketing terms shitcoin projects made up in the last couple of years...

peaderohare

Absolutely agree with all comments above .. to be honest my POA would have been all in at 30k .. so I am cautious .. especially with the stock market and external factors .. my main aim is to stack Sat's rather than looking at £ balance .. I want 0.5 BTC and shut off from crypto for the next 2 or 3 years

series_hybrid

I remember reading some where years ago that when someone rich had a "Swiss bank account" (actually, probably British Virgin Islands), your account can have two account numbers. If someone was paying you, there was one account number for deposits only, so someone with the account number could not spoof you and get any money out. I don't know if that was even true, but...I thought that kind of precautions would be a great idea. I have heard horror stories of someone giving someone else the "power of attorney/POA" and they got cleaned out (soldier deploying to middle east for one year, etc). Then, I heard about a single-transaction POA, which is only good for one very specific transaction. Maybe a spouse buying a house when other spouse was overseas? I have heard of calling your credit card and locking the account. I've also heard about locking your credit history, so nobody can take out a home-loan against your house until it is unlocked. Crypto needs something like this. Could it be done at the exchange level, or in wallets? (I'm fairly new to crypto, still learning).

Cilree

"partners" ;-) ​ Like always, absolutely zero details on what that even means. If Vechain was that great, it would not be dropping out of the top 40 slowly. Vet was a promising project in 2017 but it has failed miserably. X-nodes where just a hasty developed idea to stop people from selling. To this day x-nodes have not been worth holding on to, you would have been much better off by just selling. Absolute garbage tokenomics, especially after the 99% fee reduction without any uptick in transactions. Lately the missed all their deadlines regarding POA 2.0. The CEO lied about an upcoming 1 Million TX/day customer only to later revise that and claim it was a translation error. Sure, a translation error that he didn't care to clear up for over a month, despite being asked numerous times by the community. Where are all the usecases that should already be live? In 2018 BYD was supposed to go live, now it's almost four years later. Same for most of those "partnerships". Oh, while we are at it, their "partnerships" are only with the China division of companies 99% of the time. So when they partner with Walmart, it's actually only Walmarkt China which is basically it's own company that has very little to do with Walmart US. And for being the "world's leading enterprise blockchain" (their own words) they have very little connections to real western companies. And if they do arrange something it usually fails and get's swept under the rug. Like Puff Bar. It was a huge deal and for some unknown reason Puff Bar stopped using Vechain. What a bad look. Of course there have been no updates to the community whatsoever. The network burns 300-400k Vethor (their gas) per **week** while generating 37 **Million** per **day**. And people still expect to make a living by selling Vethor to enterprises. I don't even know what to say. Their "ecosystem" is a collection of complete failures. Their exchange? Nobody uses it. All the ICOs? Dead or scams. Despite claiming they would sort of curate those and pick projects which they would support and advise. Not a single one was a success, at most it was emtpy promises like Cahrenheit. They are associated with Cream, go figure out yourself. Vechain uses the cringy term "Vefam" to create some sort of cult mentality and if you look through their reddit, it works. Most people there are completely delusional and live in their little Vechain bubble. Downvote me all you want but right now, Vechain is simply another failed shitcoin with shady and deceptive marketing and underdelivering on all the promises they made. They can't even get their accounts verified on Twitter, very professional i must say.

dado3

1. I've been around long enough to be witnessing that Ethereum **USED** to be innovative. But it hasn't been the leader, as you claimed, in a long time. Which is exactly what I said. 2. I could go down a long list of what Cardano has been innovating compared even to post-merge ETH: a) non-custodial POS without slashing, b) the Ouroboros consensus protocol which is provably as secure as Bitcoin's POW, c) full interoperability with Bitcoin because they share UTxO, d) the ability to run an account-based EVM but ETH cannot claim the reverse, d) a path to fully decentralized governance, e) a fully composable L2 integrated solution which allows for a multitude of consensus protocols (POW, POA, POH, PO-whatever-you-want) [think of Polkadot with a full L1 solution integrated since Polkadot is actually based on Cardano's consensus protocol)], f) fully deterministic fees that aren't charged even when a transaction fails, and that's just what I came up with off the top of my head. And before you start going on about how post-merge Ethereum will have roll-ups, that's not unique to, nor innovated by, Ethereum. Cardano, and other protocols, are incorporating - or have already incorporated - them too. We could have this same discussion around a number of other protocols as well. ETH is the one doing the copying from and playing catch-up with what already exists on other chains, not the other way around. 3. Don't try to rewrite history. You said Buterin had brought more innovation and created more value than Musk but failed to include the most innovative and value-creating solutions Musk has been responsible for, like SpaceX. You then laughably attempted to claim that SpaceX didn't have value because it wasn't publicly traded. 4. The fact that you didn't detect a point is a failure of your reading comprehension. You should look into that before further attempting to continue a conversation you're already having to try to rewrite the history of in order to save face.

fan_of_hakiksexydays

Coval is up over 700% this week Veri 400% GXT 200% Dusk 97% BIOT 95% BSW 79% POA 61% Near 49% Flux 36% So you can see why something being only up 22% for the week isn't exactly making headlines.

Cilree

What exactly is wrong? Maybe i should add that their CEO himself was lying when he said that a new customer would be waiting for POA 2.0 and that this customer would do a million transactions per day. Guess what happened after POA 2.0 went live? Exactly, nothing. It was "a translation error" Lol...sure...translation error my ass. It was nothing but a **lie**.

Freshlystallone

>N Upgrading to POA 2.0 for one..

Randomized_Emptiness

and completely ignores how many cryptos are going POS, POA or similar forms of network securing.

Dr_Filament

I'm in the same boat with OP. My father's health insurance was cancelled (unknowingly) when he retired. He's been healthy for the past 10 years, but now showing signs of dimentia/azheimer's. I'm now working remotely to be his caregiver and I feel very fortunate that my employer is allowing it. If he goes into a care facility he can say goodbye to everything he owns. They'll take everything! Thought you were going to inherit the family home? Not likely if you live in America! Medical look backs last five years (except CA), meaning any gift they give within that period can be claimed by creditors. Lesson: Lawyer up and get POA as soon as your parents start showing signs that they're on the decline. Make sure your parents have long-term care coverage. Insurance companies will try every trick in the book to cancel it. Make sure your parents have planned their estate and have legal documents to prove it. Probate court is expensive...if there's anything left.

BraveCryptotab

Now Vechain moving to POA means added advantage of being less energy-intensive with low carbon output. All Green!

kirtash93

For the ones who doesnt know what POA 2.0 is it is a novel consensus mechanism that was built to eliminate weaknesses and reap the benefits of the two main types of consensus: the Nakamoto Consensus and the Byzantine Fault Tolerance (BFT). With this new mechanism, the VeChainThor blockchain can maximize its high-performance capacity while ensuring the finality of the data. What this means in practice is that there can be very high volume use cases on the chain with the highest level of data security not found on any other blockchain platform.

stiviki

VET stills very underrated, hope POA 2.0 change this!!

Ownzalot

Vechain is ready for mass adoption, using green technology and efficient scaling today but is probably best positioned of them all once POA 2.0 fully releases sometime next year. Obviously you trade some centralization to achieve this (101 authority nodes). But with DNV, Deloitte, Grant Thornton, PWC, etc as nodes it's still realistically as trustworthy as it gets.

Gzdlike

VET POA upgrade tomorrow. Let’s see how good it does :D

kamdooks

I honestly don't understand how VET isn't higher on everyone's list in competition to ADA. It is a fully fledged L1 Smart Contract platform, with more adoption from real world enterprises then any other chain. It has patents pending in US, has had no downtime, is releasing POA 2.0 in the next few days, has a thriving NFT marketplace, has fortune 500 companies partnered and as investors, has a foundation in China where no other blockchains do (yes I understand the concern with ccp, but they are a massive economy none the less). Comparatively, for a blockchain as far along as it is, it is undervalued.

ShotCryptographer523

POA2 will launch tomorrow I think. Will be interesting what this does to the VET price.

cyclicalwand

It uses Proof of Authority (POA) and I think there are only 21 validators which are all chosen by Binance. So seems pretty centralised.

poopymcpoppy12

CB isn't going to list a centralized Chinese POA token my dude.

Independent_Arm_3420

31% of US age 18-29, 21% age 30-49, 8% age 50 - 64, and 3% over age 65 have bought/traded crypto (per Forbes 11/11/21). There will be alot more dumb money entering this market. They have no clue what blockchain, POW, POA, 51% attacks, 66 2/3 concensus on POS means much less, smart contracts are coded in Haskell, Solidity, Rust etc or that you need views into smart contracts. They have no clue about the diff in a meme/shit coin and a real project....just my two cents.

imsatansson

Coinbase will never list a Chinese owned POA consensus. I say that as someone with Vechain as my largest holding. It’d be nice, but look how far we’ve gotten without them.

bigstinkycuntfest

VET has and upgrade to the mainnet with POA2.0 hitting on the 16th. It isn't the full upgrade but it is significant. You have 6 days to load up. ATH is imminent. May well be the short term moonshot you are looking for. May not. Roll them dice. GL.

asterics002

POA 2.0 is still a ways off. The first step of POA 2.0 just got implemented on main net, but it will be next year before the complete protocol upgrade is finalised

SummerLover69

As someone that is responsible for data retention, it is far harder than most people here think it is. Think of how many lost coins there are. Designing it to go a few years is one thing. Decades is a whole other ballgame. I don't believe most self-custody people have near enough robust procedures in place to ensure their coins can't be lost or stolen. Things like off site storage with redundancy of the words and someone that can access those offsite locations should you be incapacitated. Storage in bank vault safety deposit boxes is probably the safest. To do it correctly, you probably need several banks all with parts of the words so they aren't all in one place. Then you need legal documents like a will and power of attorney so someone you trust can get access, if you are no longer able to get access. Someone also needs to keep track and probably check each safety deposit box each year to make sure the rental fees have been paid and nothing gets messed up in the numerous moves, mergers, acquisitions and everything else that can happen to a bank over a period of decades. When you move towns, do you get all new safety deposit boxes and organize moving your words as part of that move. Then updating trusted people that will have POA on the new locations etc. Tl;dr It is super complicated and 99% of people are much less likely to lose coins by keeping them on exchanges.

sshanihi

Phase 1 from POA2 live on testnet #teamVET https://twitter.com/vechainofficial/status/1456565125297680385?s=24

JkicksMT

Idk but phase 1 of POA2.0 is live on test net which means main net soon ;)

vhanke

Vechain currently holding 52 patents around the world. I dont see a lack of adoption at all. POA 2.0 will be fully implemented in 2022 and will increase the speed of transactions anf scalability dramatically. Also it is usable for almost every even so small company which is a major step to mass adoption(toolchain) Hyperledger is very complicated and can only be used by few very skilled programmers

Flyinghogfish

I can see your point, but the way things stand now, we already have this issue with candidates. At least with many individuals, they can be swayed or convinced, but with a single wealthy politician with an agenda, he has little no to incentive to stay true to his word if he just has a bunch of fans and loyalists to elect them again. Especially, if he's incentivized through private donations to just enable legislation that benefits his biggest donors instead of his constituency. I would argue that votes today seem less effective because it's only one time to trust a person for up to 8 years to make all the right decisions. I think if we had a way of moderating the types of issues that were able to be voted on, allowed the app or whatever POA was used to have educational elements to help get people up to speed on the issues, it might mitigate those issues you're talking about.

solemnJoker

The story is deeper than just "Enjin is a gaming coin". I held Enjin few years and saw it moon 10-15x. But, the project started as an ERC20 Ethereum coin and was geared completely towards video games. Early 2021 when NFT market exploded, Enjin was not part of the NFT boom. And seeing that the gaming multiverse they had in mind would require a high throughput/low fee blockchain that Ethereum is still far away from delivering, the Enjin team delivered two things, JumpNet, a proof of authority sidechain on Ethereum for the indie developers in the system to use asap, and the decision to move their main infrastructure to Polkadot. So now everyone is waiting for them to win a Polkadot slot for their Efinity chain. Note that Enjin was not part of the NFT boom in early 2021 or the Play to earn boom that came after, and right now they have three coins, Enj, Jenj (Enj on their POA chain) and Efi, the new coin on Polkadot. IMO Enjin missed the NFT boat and right now it's a confusing system with a plan to start from scratch. I sold my Enj bag and moving my Gaming/Metaverse/NFT money to Flow, clearer path and the best partnerships among all chains after Ethereum.

BlubberWall

I wouldn’t call POA decentralized

vhanke

Loving the POA 2.0 from VET - big game changer and once it's integrated in main net this sleeping giant will finally wake up Top ten mid term for sure

tmldale

also delisting DLT, SKY & POA

theylie86

isn't today the big day for VET POA 2.0... awesome timing, as always... 

Dje_ronimo

And POA 2.0 coming in only 6 days :)

DarienSatori

Got them since I saw PwC and BMW are in with them, but still on the fence until I see more work on POA. They're currently only 2% of my portfolio (60% btc and eth anyways).

maximus2183

The higher the POA, the more valuable.

DeepBluuu

Sorry I'm confused .. are there no earnings being given out for current staking under the POA network? I am asking about these, not POS.