POS

Halo22B

Cuz POS is garbage tech....ohhh your serious, well just go ahead and propose a new BIP that converts BTC to PoS and then all us node owners will vote on it and we can see how much value your idea has....lol

Available_Market9123

If the nodes hold the power, then what stops bitcoin from going POS? I thought it was the miners

FYourShit

When ETH merges and becomes POS will people holding ETH need to do anything? Will this create another ETH chain like ETH Classic?

bitcoin_barry

Just wanted to give a shout out to Breez wallet. They now support LNURL-pay over NFC as part of their POS mode. You can charge an amount, then scan and see it get paid like a credit card!

Prized-Man

I'd look into ETH after it goes POS, till then I am staying away. It's highly possible that I might dump BTC for ETH.

stargazercaptain

This next little while is kind of a singularity. POS, BTC gets to do what it was intended to do since 2008 bailout, elections....PIVOT!

slasula

POS doesn’t look the same anymore either

comfyggs

Biggest mistake ever. POS and POW Coexist just fine. And guess what, the POW isn’t going anywhere. It’s merging and you still need Asics to create the cryptographic proofs. Source, Tim Bieko.

bzzking

Moving from POW to POS

AESTHTK

This is an excellent summary from Foobar, covering off the key technical and design elements of Ethereum’s elegant POS design.

Curi0usMama

So, just because this guy has different ideas than the mainstream, he's labeled as a POS?

skebu_official

I wouldn't specifically say POW/POS. It could even be some other mechanism. But a blockchain automatically produces a new block after certain predetermined criteria is met. Including empty blocks, even. Comparing the two, a blockchain is a way to implement a distributed ledger, but not all distributed ledgers necessarily employ blockchains.

outofobscure

No, a blockchain is defined as including a reward mechanism through for example POW or POS, if you don‘t include that you just have a distributed ledger, not much more than a federated and replicated SQL database, but NOT a blockchain.

outofobscure

Wrong, these are distributed ledgers. A blockchain is defined as including the reward mechanism through POW/POS

bzzking

That is correct. It is a move from execution POW to consensus POS.

OdoIcontradictmyself

There is simply no comparison between Bitcoin and Eth. Bitcoin will languish along with Eth in the short term, but long term I don’t think unfixed monetary policy, questionable decentralization and POS can compete in a meaningful way.

evoxyseah

You can get more POS coins that can be staked natively from a cold wallet.

saffron1990

Yes. I'm aware fees won't go down. What i'm asking is will the staking rewards fluctuate based on how busy the network is? Right now if the network is congested then the miners get paid a lot more. When it goes POS there are no miners and the rewards are paid to stakers instead. I'm trying to figure out if the payouts will change based on how busy the network is. ​ If the network is really busy will you get 10% and if the network is really quiet will you get 5% for example. ​ That's what i want to know

DigitalInvestments2

POS cryptos have higher rewards than any centralized lending platform will offer you anyway, so why risk your funds on websites like Voyager? I'm getting 20% staking ICP and 13% staking NEAR. At the same time, I am custodying these assets, so there is no risk.

ZodiacManiac

Eth POS is here it’s called the Beaconchain with 400,000 validators chuntering away.

_Zazu95_

We will live with both POS And POW

ludilobratuced

I also see it like that , POS is for the 1% people in crypto to get richer

stogas

Breez is a Lightning wallet + POS system, very simple: https://breez.technology/

Dwaas_Bjaas

Only Goerli remains before mainnet POS 🤩

OceanSlim

20% of supply, same thing as pre-mined. Just for POS networks. Since you don't really "mine" POS in the first place. Total agreement here man.

Dwaas_Bjaas

ETH Sepolia merge in ~22 minutes! Edit: 10 minutes! Edit: 3 minutes! Sepolia transition to POS is complete! Now we wait a day to see if any bugs pop up or not!

OceanSlim

But Ma FiRsT PRinCiPleS! Look man, I've been trying to tell the POS guys that ADA is nothing more than a money printer for Charles but the cult is real. He just uses a lot of smart talk to sell dumb people that Cardano is somehow the next best crypto. I believed him too when I first got into crypto. But then I actually studied real first principle of money and discovered very quickly that Mr Hoskinson just want's HIS currency to be the currency. Same with every other POS network.

qwertyWarrior77

Because polygon has been hacked several times and if that hack makes it the POW system and is validated it’s essentially now the same as having hacking the POW chain by creating a permanent fraudulent transaction. This the POW is now only as secure as the POS

nismo92

In the thinking that POS is circular, what makes incentivizing Bitcoin mining with Bitcoin different? Any coin treated as currency has the same inherent problem, the more you have the more you can control. Whether or not you attack the value of the dollar if you have more money than other people you can control the way it operates to benefit yourself more easily.

qwertyWarrior77

Okay but the point being the chain is as weak as the weakest link. If you just imprint the data from POS to POW you are securing the same results on a more “secure” network. But how secure is that network if I can just hack the POS and create a record that you then validate on the POW network because from the computer can see it looks legit. So if they don’t compete there is no need for both. The argument is A or B and there is very little argument for POW given that the security concern is negligible and for the extra cost of POW you could easily focus on security with POS

qwertyWarrior77

What logic is there in that? If POW is just a system to validate the POS transactions it’s essentially doing nothing…

CointestAdmin

#Dogecoin Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by roberthonker which won 2nd place in the Dogecoin Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > (initially put forward by u\/Adventurous_Piglet85) > > (Put forward by u\/meteor-vs-lizardking last round) > > Dogecoin’s success is explained through pure economic and mathematical fundamentals. > > The important thing to note is these fundamentals apply regardless of the name, regardless of it being a meme, regardless of why it was created, and regardless of which billionaires support it > > I am going to cover two topics today > > A) What makes a currency successful > > B) What makes a Cryptocurrency successful > > What makes a currency successful? > > 1. a large supply relative to the user base > 2. An inflationary tendency that allows for lost or destroyed currency. note - inflation and hyperinflation are completely different. Regular inflation - between 1-10% is healthy - whereas anything over 20% is considered detrimental) > 3. cheap, available and easily transactable (the economic term for this is liquidity) > 4. Popular enough. What I mean by this is either enough businesses actually transacting the currency or a user base that barters with each other. > > What makes a cryptocurrency successful? > > 5. dedicated user base either mining or staking the cryptocurrency. This allows the the blocks on the blockchain to be solved - and therefore maintain the transactions. > > 6. an active development team - what this means is that while it doesn’t necessarily have to be the BEST technology or development - it does need to have at least some development to maintain the Cryptocurrencies longevity > > Now - there are definitely other defining factors that contribute to a cryptocurrencies success. However, these are the primary fundamental criteria for a cryptocurrency or currency to be successful. > > If any of these 6 criteria are not met - the cryptocurrency/currency will fail OR not be nearly as successful as it could be. If it meets these criteria- then it is successful. Regardless of it’s price per coin. Anything else after this is just bells and whistles. This is the bare minimum requirements. > > Well how does Dogecoin cryptocurrency hold up? > > 1. Does Dogecoin. have a high supply relative to the user base? Yes. It has a 128 billion dollar supply. This allows the people owning this crypto to own large amounts. The high supply helps maintain liquidity and promote spending rather than hoarding. > 2. Does Dogecoin have an inflationary tendency? Yes, it has a fixed rate of 10,000 new coins added per minute - which equates to roughly 4% inflation per year. (This falls within the range of healthy inflation) Since this rate is fixed, over time the inflation rate lowers. This inflation rate is negligible to affecting the price per coin > 3. Is Dogecoin cheap, available and easily transactable? Yes. It has a transaction(gas) fee of 1 coin per transaction. It cheap - and readily available > 4. Is Dogecoin popular/used by the majority of the user base? Yes. This it is currently in the top 99.99% of used cryptocurrency. Dogecoin is accepted by restaurants, car dealerships,sporting teams, as well as thousands of other small businesses. > 5. Does Dogecoin have a dedicated user base mining the cryptocurrency? Yes, even though it is merged mined with LTC - it has a dedicated group of people mining the coin. They have been maintaining the blockchain for over 8 years, and the block reward of 10,000 coins per block is a great incentive to continue mining in the future. > 6. Does Dogecoin have an active development team? Yes. Contrary to the misconceptions. Dose Dogecoin have an active development team. Are the top of the line developers like other cryptocurrency like ETH? Not necessarily, but it does indeed have a development team working behind the scenes to ensure its success. > > As you can see, based on the minimum requirements of what makes a cryptocurrency and currency successful- you can see without a doubt why this cryptocurrency has survived as long as it has. > > To further show more evidence here 10 additional points for why Dogecoin is successful > > 1. Dogecoin has an 8 year track record of success - even if the price hasn’t necessarily shown it until recently. Dogecoin has survived every major Cryptocurrency bear market and will survive the next. > 2. The myth behind Dogecoin having an unlimited supply is just that, a myth. Dogecoin is not unlimited it has 128 billion dollar supply and 4% Inflation rate > 3. All POW and POS cryptocurrency are also inflationary. Cryptocurrency is inherently inflationary and that is a good thing. Inflation is negligible when under 20% > 4. Dogecoin’s price is not dependent upon Elon musk or Mark Cuban. The price rise has been evident for approximately 8 months. Elon and Mark just sped up a process that was already happening > 5. ⁠Dogecoin still have plenty of room to gain price, but due to the relatively high supply don’t expect bitcoin levels per coin. Realistically Dogecoin can reach between the $1-$10 range. > 6. ⁠Dogecoin is accepted by more businesses than 99.9% of other cryptocurrency > 7. Dogecoin’s mining reward of 10k per block is a great reward for mining and helps to ensure that the cryptocurrency will continue to survive > 8. Dogecoin has cheap transaction fees and has a very good utility at Cryptocurrencies intended purpose of exchanging goods. > 9. The economic fundamentals behind Dogecoin are sound and great for its intended purpose of being a currency > 10. The meme aspect of Dogecoin has absolutely zero impact of the functionality of the cryptocurrency > > Almost every single argument against Dogecoin has one of the following flaws > > a) lack of understand of economics - misconceptions about the supply, mining rate, and inflation and how none of these are actual issues > > b) not understanding that the meme aspect has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the cryptocurrency > > c) lack of actual research - just repeating information they heard from someone else on the internet ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz2r9u\/rcc_cointest_top_10_dogecoin_proarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Dogecoin) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

NudgeBucket

Half a decade and nothings changed? I have a bridge to sell you, and lucky for you it's payable entirely in POS coins!

Routine-Moment-7845

He is a POS. His wife worked the trading desk in the 90s so maybe this genius made his money ‘front running’ big trades. He comes across as an idiot — so maybe he is, and he and his first wife devolved so maybe front running is not an option.

not420guilty

POS = piece of shit Funny, but not untrue. Seriously though, pos is a trade off. It’s great for founders of premine chains who hold a lot of coins. At least until it’s weaker security model fails.

yazyoga

POS …

a-typical_user

All I ever see when I see POS is "Piece of Shit". I don't know what's wrong with me my brain must be broken.

CryptoChief

> Main issue btw is that POS is circular. You try to protect and incentivize the token chain with its own token, which is similar to the situation where UST was backed with LUNA and LUNA derived value from UST being stable. Cherry picking at its finest. BTW, are you saying PoW coins aren't incentivized with their own coins? > This attack vector allows large holders dictate the terms even if they never actually attack. Everyone else will just have to nod to any protocol changes, which may include higher inflation, haircuts, funding of certain accounts, etc. You act like you've never heard of the Slasher algorithm before. No they will just hard fork away from the older chain and blacklist the bad actors if it gets that bad. If someone has that much of a stake/vested interest in a PoS chain and attacks it in that way, he would ultimately be hurting himself more than anyone else anyway. > POS is fundamentally similar to the fiat system. Don't be hysterical. You're really showing your true cards here. PoS has its trade-offs but so does PoW. Mining pools or small groups of mining pools can and do get over a 50% hash rate but attacks aren't as often as you would expect because miners have a vested interest in the value of the coin they're mining. Same applies to PoS.

NudgeBucket

Why don't you ask cosmos, solana and others how POS is working? It's proving to be entirely centralized in many cases, significantly more centralized than POW in others, expensive to participate in actual consensus any meaningful way, cost prohibitive to participate in consensus on many, and significantly less secure across the board. IF the lesson you've taken from the last several months of hacks, and attacks on POS chains is that they're superior.. good luck to you man. You must so new to have not gotten wrecked yet. I'm into POS shitcoins too, but I'm not foolish enough to claim they're better than the sole single coin that drives the entire market interest.

BTC_LN

Sorry if my style is not good. Could re-read it again to understand? It is like the LUNA ecosystem. The tokens are used to secure itself. No external factor to stop a downward spiral. Custodians and staking farms have a lot of tokens. If they are captured, it’s game over. That means a strong government like the USA needs to go after a few people under any pretext, that’s it. They can claim it’s an unregistered security operating illegally and if they don’t cooperate they all go to jail. The claim is logically derived. It’s game theory and a passive threat. Once you have a concrete example it’s too late. It’s similar in a sense that a few people can collude or can be captured and everything about the chain is up for a change. Sure, people can fork away a version that is not going to be listen on any exchange, but that will have very little to no value and POS incentives will break down. Eth will have to scramble to return back to POW. Better start preparing for a rollback now.

No_Bodybuilder_1256

This reads like word salad. PoS is absolutely nothing like LUNA. >Once someone starts to attack a POS chain Just how are they going to do that then? You seem to have skipped over quite a lot of important steps. >This attack vector allows large holders dictate the terms even if they never actually attack. Unsubstantiated claim. >POS is fundamentally similar to the fiat system. A lie.

BTC_LN

Neither of them provided a rebuttal to the issues brought up. Bitcoiners always warn people about stuff. Nobody ever listens. Well then. Let’s watch it burn. 😢 Main issue btw is that POS is circular. You try to protect and incentivize the token chain with its own token, which is similar to the situation where UST was backed with LUNA and LUNA derived value from UST being stable. Once someone starts to attack a POS chain, especially a big custodian who was potentially captured the token value dips which means the further attack becomes increasingly cheaper especially if the attacker shorts the token in advance. This attack vector allows large holders dictate the terms even if they never actually attack. Everyone else will just have to nod to any protocol changes, which may include higher inflation, haircuts, funding of certain accounts, etc. POS is fundamentally similar to the fiat system. If you think about it, switching to POS is already a sign of being captured by an ideology. POS was known and studied before POW. POW was created to fix the known (and still unresolved) fundamental issues.

BTC_LN

Neither of them provided a rebuttal to the issues brought up. Bitcoiners always warn people about stuff. Nobody ever listens. Well then. Let’s watch it burn. 😢 Main issue btw is that POS is circular. You try to protect and incentivize the token chain with its own token, which is similar to the situation where UST was backed with LUNA and LUNA derived value from UST being stable. Once someone starts to attack a POS chain, especially a big custodian who was potentially captures the token value dips which means the further attack becomes increasingly cheaper especially if the attacker shorts the token in advance. This attack vector allows large holders dictate the terms even if they never actually attack. Everyone else will just have to nod to any protocol changes, which may include higher inflation, haircuts, funding of certain accounts, etc. POS is fundamentally similar to the fiat system. If you think about it, switching to POS is already a sign of being captured by an ideology. POS was known and studied before POW. POW was created to fix the known (and still unresolved) fundamental issues.

_TheWolfOfWalmart_

Eth has been a POS since the beginning. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

arad1x

Is there a date on eth POS launch?

infopocalypse

This leaves out where Adam Back shows everyone the problems with POS in the comments. Neither of those 2 had a rebuttal.

benbenek

Love or hate Cardano. But Eth with its transition to POS has a rocky road ahead - that's for sure...

CapitalEntrepreneur2

ETH can't even transition to POS. The fees are so high it is unusable, and people turn into centralized L2s because the main layer is shit. Don't make me laugh.

fall0ut

Bro all the eth miners have big plans for etc once eth goes POS.

Complex_Inspector_60

I’ve heard that but relative to the mechanism that Macali invented in terms of selecting the ppl who stake (in each and every staking) it is clearly not centralized - there’s YouTube’s w/him explaining pure POS. Additionally, if you watch macali’s various videos his ethos is very high in terms of integrity. This makes it hard for me to believe that Centralization is Algorands aim- indeed decentralization seems to be pushed ad nauseum.

Dehyak

Is ETH POS yet?

Giga79

That sounds an awful lot like Luna.. backed by BTC eh Just kidding, sort of. But I agree with your statement. It would be nice if there was something like an L2 that allowed P2P on top of Bitcoin. Say you put up $500 BTC as collateral to then mint $500xBTC with it, to use the coin with low fees or in novel ways like an EVM L2 or an POS/POH L2. It would bring utility to the network, the L2's can pay for miners after rewards halve their pay cheque's away, L2's can generate income themselves without taking assets off-chain (unlike LN), and people would have more choices. Unfortunately not possible in BTC's *language* but it would be a great idea.

Giga79

Not POS in itself but the *switch* to POS might increase fees. There will be 0 new ETH going to market after we've seen 13,500 per day for years, for about 6 months to 1 year until POS issuance is unlocked. Making ETH more scarce. I speculate this could lead to (possibly a short lived) bull run which means higher than usual activity, and high fees. POS to POW itself doesn't change the fee structure at all. The next upgrade after though that's waiting for the merge to complete is called [EIP4844](https://www.eip4844.com/) aka Proto Danksharding, which will reduce fees by up to 100x for L2's. After that is Danksharding which will decrease fees by another 2-5x for L2 and also a substantial amount on the L1 too afaik. The idea though is that fees will be so cheap on L2 that no matter how scaled the L1 gets through sharding *people* still likely won't use it again. Tldr they're working on it!

procabiak

Novel idea but atm it is not secure at all... Basically there's a web url connected to your lightning wallet you leave intentionally exposed, so that the merchant can withdraw funds from it. The credit card just tells the merchant where the url is. Punching in a pin would require that pin to be passed to the POS which leaves you exposed to the merchant. Whoever you transact with, has everything they need to siphon funds off you. You will need the card to perform cryptographic functions like signing and encrypting the pin or invoice so that it can only come from you... which means it'll never be doable in the credit card form factor. And you're back to square one, using a phone to pay.

Lnnrt1

Perhaps it is a stupid question, but will the switch to POS in itself have an effect on gas fees?

kryptoNoob69420

Who needs all these upgrades and POS for Ethereum when we got bear markets to make it usable lol.

simplelifestyle

Source: David Coen on YT Sub to his channel, he deserves more subs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okdzn2PtINo > Jul 4, 2022 I pay #bitcoin over #LightningNetwork with my custom #NFC card (linked to Lnbits) and with my #BoltCard by CoinCorner using a new beta of #Breez Wallet and it works like a charm! > The POS UI uses the #LNURL-withdrawPOS I explained here: > https://github.com/theDavidCoen/LNURL-withdrawPOS

piggleii

A shitcoin I'm monitoring is in the green. I mean, it's close to zero, but not close enough. Bottom is not in until these stupid POS coins die.

tsumy

Will Eth... -> a wrong merge to POS, or just move to POS but without finishing the rest of the roadmap before the next bull (if we re in a long winter) and our Eth bags can start to feel immensely heavy. Imagine other order of magnitude in users but almost the same congestion that we had the last year.

Keith_Kong

Very cool, is there an easy way to see a map of locations that integrate the Lightning POS terminals?

CoinCorner_Sam

The merchant is accepting Bitcoin over r/thelightningnetwork POS terminal. No fiat involved, pure Bitcoin card.

Ucanthandlelit

But POS makes POW obsolete for Eth?

Vaginosis-Psychosis

Gies nobody told you POS = Piece of Shit

AESTHTK

This is huge too. I saw a stat that every month we delay turning off PoW uses up a decade of POS energy.

BlubberWall

>a huge game changer Any fork off of Bitcoin has no inherent value if people don’t want it. You can make a POS fork right now if you wanted, if no one is willing to buy it there’s no value.

Paskee

Xrp is POW Much harder to crack then POS

spinz808

A lot of miners front running The Merge and dumping their GPUs before the switch to POS makes them useless

G1gl1orononim1con

I eat POS for breakfast.

FldLima

Best POS coins out here? Go

Mike941

Meanwhile Cardano is still 1/9 as expensive, POS, and just as decentralized.

Classic_Blood7568

I'm completely sidelined trading wise currently. However rapidly expanding Mining & Validation Node Network while cost basis is at a low point. No point sailing into a declining market on trades, and with extensive passive revenue scenarios completely unnecessary too. Just waiting for the targets and indicators to signal when its stabilized. Bitcoin will ofcourse lead the party as always. So my first choice out of a Crypto Winter is ALWAYS Bitcoin and will load up as much as possible once we see better macro economic conditions and the markets stabilize. Not There yet. Also any scaling solutions within BTC network and or ledger & layering projects. Next ofcourse ETH but I mine Ethereum extensively and have been depositing into whole Validation Nodes for a minute now. POS should be a nice deflationary switch inside ETH though and they have the most extensive networks in DeFi. However will follow BTC still... Lastly, lots of interesting new projects coming to play and the various DeFi and scaling solutions within. Also META and many implementations thereof into daily life activities wilp become a huge play and several interesting projects in Meta currently, although I'm mainly focusing on Digital Parcels Acquisition and Avatar Development. As the passive income potential inside Meta is enormous, and easily scales compared to say a fixed network of ASICs Mining. The biggest play in my opinion in Crypto is its ability to create passive income scenarios with a bit of tech, and this will be the value center of the digital future and where real wealth is created, all be it from a majority of existing wealth, but there's still room for more...

Kumomax1911

Transactions use pretty much zero energy. The energy use is a constant that is required to secure the network itself. You can sign 1 can transaction or 100. The energy consumption is nearly identical. The total energy output is used to run the world's first publicly controlled financial network. That energy, now turning mostly renewable, is well worth any cost. Not to mention Bitcoin's code is always upgradable and we can choose to move to something like POS if desired. These claims are made every day against crypto and they are just as ridiculous as the number of times they've been debunked. Yes, all this includes all of them. Your exhaustive emotional response causes these ridiculous claims to win. Ask specific questions if you want to learn. Otherwise, you've become part of the problem. This shit is f'in stupid.

Giga79

>I don’t think people said it could not work. It can work but then you just have a stakeholder system, which means the more money you have the more power you have. Not the same as proof of work. The more money you have in proof of work the more stake you have over the hash power. It's essentially the same thing.. And I have been in numerous arguments with Maxis over Ethereum's switch to POS - a substantial amount of people think it will drop to $0 if/when the Merge ever occurs.

ismirschlecht

>That must hurt all the maxis who argued POS could never work in the real world. I think they've said it won't work for ETH, and that seems to be true

Giga79

>According to the institution, energy consumption will be central to determining the future of money, especially with payment systems embracing distributed ledger technology. That must hurt all the maxis who argued POS could never work in the real world. The crypto bill they purposed last week or the week before said they'll allow any bank to issue their own stablecoin on blockchains. And there are a lot of banks. Things are about to get real strange.

GraDoN

There is also very little decentralized about crypto in general... POW is too inefficient to scale and POS is anything but decentralized so... nice project this is.

thegooddocgonzo

> For nearly two years, between Jan. 2021 and May 2022, the average gas fee required by the Ethereum network was roughly $40, with May 1, 2022 recording the highest average daily gas cost of $196.638. It’s ridiculous how out of control has fees were. $1.57 is still pretty exorbitant, IMO but hopefully things will get more reasonable in the future with the move to POS.

blueberry-yogurt

Same as 2017-8 really. 99% of those ICOs based on Ethereum turned out to be scams? Ok, let's do NFTs based on Ethereum this time! And "lending" based on Ethereum assets!!! Some day we'll find a use for ETH!!!!! Maybe after it becomes a POS coin (that still has $50-per-transaction "gas fees")!!!

hardy2see

Yeah it's good to give people solutions to avoid these instances in the future, but putting all the blame on new retail investors that got burned on top of them losing all of their funds overnight is going to put off alot of general retail (especially from word of mouth and headlines) from touching crypto at all for a long period of time. Voyager is to blame. Alot of people are new to crypto, maybe the general crypto community showing some support for the people that got scammed and lost everything would encourage people to stay since there's a "good community" around these things. Instead of people taking cheap shots and dunking on them to make themselves feel intellectually superior. Some people thought they could set, forget, and trust the first publicly traded crypto brokerage company that constantly touted "FDIC insurance for USD" & "Your USD deposited with us is as safe as a bank for 250k with FDIC insurance" from their all of their marketing. Also Voyager never had crazy high interest rates, I think most of their crypto was within the range of 4-6% interest. (Except for DOT but that's because DOT POS staking yield is innately higher than most) PS: I didn't lose anything on Voyager. I'm a marketing professional in my day job that also does marketing & community building in the crypto space.

CointestAdmin

#Dogecoin Pro-Arguments Below is an argument written by roberthonker which won 2nd place in the Dogecoin Pro-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > (initially put forward by u\/Adventurous_Piglet85) > > (Put forward by u\/meteor-vs-lizardking last round) > > Dogecoin’s success is explained through pure economic and mathematical fundamentals. > > The important thing to note is these fundamentals apply regardless of the name, regardless of it being a meme, regardless of why it was created, and regardless of which billionaires support it > > I am going to cover two topics today > > A) What makes a currency successful > > B) What makes a Cryptocurrency successful > > What makes a currency successful? > > 1. a large supply relative to the user base > 2. An inflationary tendency that allows for lost or destroyed currency. note - inflation and hyperinflation are completely different. Regular inflation - between 1-10% is healthy - whereas anything over 20% is considered detrimental) > 3. cheap, available and easily transactable (the economic term for this is liquidity) > 4. Popular enough. What I mean by this is either enough businesses actually transacting the currency or a user base that barters with each other. > > What makes a cryptocurrency successful? > > 5. dedicated user base either mining or staking the cryptocurrency. This allows the the blocks on the blockchain to be solved - and therefore maintain the transactions. > > 6. an active development team - what this means is that while it doesn’t necessarily have to be the BEST technology or development - it does need to have at least some development to maintain the Cryptocurrencies longevity > > Now - there are definitely other defining factors that contribute to a cryptocurrencies success. However, these are the primary fundamental criteria for a cryptocurrency or currency to be successful. > > If any of these 6 criteria are not met - the cryptocurrency/currency will fail OR not be nearly as successful as it could be. If it meets these criteria- then it is successful. Regardless of it’s price per coin. Anything else after this is just bells and whistles. This is the bare minimum requirements. > > Well how does Dogecoin cryptocurrency hold up? > > 1. Does Dogecoin. have a high supply relative to the user base? Yes. It has a 128 billion dollar supply. This allows the people owning this crypto to own large amounts. The high supply helps maintain liquidity and promote spending rather than hoarding. > 2. Does Dogecoin have an inflationary tendency? Yes, it has a fixed rate of 10,000 new coins added per minute - which equates to roughly 4% inflation per year. (This falls within the range of healthy inflation) Since this rate is fixed, over time the inflation rate lowers. This inflation rate is negligible to affecting the price per coin > 3. Is Dogecoin cheap, available and easily transactable? Yes. It has a transaction(gas) fee of 1 coin per transaction. It cheap - and readily available > 4. Is Dogecoin popular/used by the majority of the user base? Yes. This it is currently in the top 99.99% of used cryptocurrency. Dogecoin is accepted by restaurants, car dealerships,sporting teams, as well as thousands of other small businesses. > 5. Does Dogecoin have a dedicated user base mining the cryptocurrency? Yes, even though it is merged mined with LTC - it has a dedicated group of people mining the coin. They have been maintaining the blockchain for over 8 years, and the block reward of 10,000 coins per block is a great incentive to continue mining in the future. > 6. Does Dogecoin have an active development team? Yes. Contrary to the misconceptions. Dose Dogecoin have an active development team. Are the top of the line developers like other cryptocurrency like ETH? Not necessarily, but it does indeed have a development team working behind the scenes to ensure its success. > > As you can see, based on the minimum requirements of what makes a cryptocurrency and currency successful- you can see without a doubt why this cryptocurrency has survived as long as it has. > > To further show more evidence here 10 additional points for why Dogecoin is successful > > 1. Dogecoin has an 8 year track record of success - even if the price hasn’t necessarily shown it until recently. Dogecoin has survived every major Cryptocurrency bear market and will survive the next. > 2. The myth behind Dogecoin having an unlimited supply is just that, a myth. Dogecoin is not unlimited it has 128 billion dollar supply and 4% Inflation rate > 3. All POW and POS cryptocurrency are also inflationary. Cryptocurrency is inherently inflationary and that is a good thing. Inflation is negligible when under 20% > 4. Dogecoin’s price is not dependent upon Elon musk or Mark Cuban. The price rise has been evident for approximately 8 months. Elon and Mark just sped up a process that was already happening > 5. ⁠Dogecoin still have plenty of room to gain price, but due to the relatively high supply don’t expect bitcoin levels per coin. Realistically Dogecoin can reach between the $1-$10 range. > 6. ⁠Dogecoin is accepted by more businesses than 99.9% of other cryptocurrency > 7. Dogecoin’s mining reward of 10k per block is a great reward for mining and helps to ensure that the cryptocurrency will continue to survive > 8. Dogecoin has cheap transaction fees and has a very good utility at Cryptocurrencies intended purpose of exchanging goods. > 9. The economic fundamentals behind Dogecoin are sound and great for its intended purpose of being a currency > 10. The meme aspect of Dogecoin has absolutely zero impact of the functionality of the cryptocurrency > > Almost every single argument against Dogecoin has one of the following flaws > > a) lack of understand of economics - misconceptions about the supply, mining rate, and inflation and how none of these are actual issues > > b) not understanding that the meme aspect has nothing to do with the fundamentals of the cryptocurrency > > c) lack of actual research - just repeating information they heard from someone else on the internet ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz2r9u\/rcc_cointest_top_10_dogecoin_proarguments_october/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Dogecoin) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds.

arad1x

Yes, but with this market I probably only buy some ETH after/before POS

vulebieje

The report seemed to indicate that blockchains themselves are fairly robust. Rather, the credentials of various entities, and the centralized implementation of POW or POS can be exploited, attacked, or phished with much less effort than previously thought.

lekebecker

i will never trust anyone,, except some BTC on a cold wallet.... I dont trust ETH ...with all those change ....( POS ) ​ POW is the best,.....maybe ADA is my second one i trust ....charles look like a good guy :) no joke,, he did a great jod in washingotng

arcangleous

Given that Ethereum had to a do a major rollback to protect investor value, resulting in it splitting into Ethereum and Ethereum Classic (which didn't do the rollback) and failed to address the underlying incentives which created the need for the rollback in the first place, I full expect Ethereum to fail. I would not be surprised if another Ethereum chain was created by the POW miners in response to rapidly approaching switch to POS, fragmenting the community even further and a much larger amount of activity stays with the POW chain, due to the amount of money the miners stand to lose.

SlaveOfTheOwner

> I would consider 300 (which are all most likely run on AWS) Do you have a source for this claim? Also it’s working upwards to 1000 but there latency issues to be considered but the number of validators is increasing. I’d say there are many facets to decentralisation, number of block producing nodes being one for sure but also the infrastructure must also be considered. For instance Polkadot has launched an, in-browser, thin client that removes the need to connect to centralised nodes when interacting with the chain. Just out of curiosity, do you know a POS type chain that has the 3000 block producing validators? No trick question, I’m just curious.

Turbulent-Ad4519

Perhaps those owning bitcoin will issue credit in the form of tokens moving on LN or some other chain? If you time lock your bitcoin for a year and issue an equivalent amount of bitcoin on another POS or DPOS chain then you have achieved security for yourself and scalability for the borrower. Bitcoin isn't inflated and when credit is repaid tokens get burned. When your time lock ends you get your bitcoin back. Could this work?

Giga79

Just a tip but don't mention you're new to crypto (most people are new anyway). Scammers love to "help" in DMs. >Ethereum is a distributed network of computers (known as nodes) running software that can verify blocks and transaction data. The software application, known as a client, must be run on your computer to turn *it* into an Ethereum node. Essentially a node is a connection point that joins or connects different branches together. There are a few different types of nodes. The only one that generates income is what's called a validator node, which requires 32 ETH to operate and contributes to Proof-of-Stake security. **I called that a full node by mistake, but I was incorrect** as you can run a full node with 0 ETH (and full nodes don't generate income). Full nodes receive all incoming transactions and have the *current* state of the blockchain. When someone makes an erroneous transaction (someone says they've sent 10 ETH to Bob but Bob has 0 ETH) it's the full nodes job to mark it incorrect and drop it (which is an automatic process in the software). Archival nodes keep the entire blockchain stored from its inception. If you need to access data that's older than 124 blocks (~25 minutes) you'd be contacting an archive node. Light nodes don't store blockchain data but still verify incoming transactions. They rely on full nodes to work, but uses much less CPU/hardware so anyone can start one using practically any old hardware. And a validator node (in POS. Or a miner node for POW) has all new transactions sent to them and it's their job to verify for accuracy then order them all into blocks. They secure the block either by putting up stake that can be lost *or* by doing an obscene amount of math(mining), to prove they aren't lying (because why spend a lot of $ on electricity/stake for $0 gain). https://ethereum.org/en/run-a-node https://ethereum.org/en/developers/docs/nodes-and-clients/ >Having your own node means you don't need to trust information about the state of the network provided by a third party. > >**Don't trust. Verify.** I'd like to run a validator node so I can earn ETH *passively* (with some risk). The APR for staking post-merge (when Ethereum turns mining off and merges the Proof of stake chain and the Proof of Work chain into a single chain) will be nearly 10% which is enough to double my ETH stack in around 7 years. I have zero interest in mining even if the return is much greater. Not sure why, too busy maybe. --- Mining issuance is 13,500 new ETH a day to go towards security. Staking issuance will be around 1,350 new ETH per day for security. It's a lot less wasteful, and in theory should have a higher cost to attack (thus more secure, *without* the mining inflation). By then it will be *very hard* to find ETH to buy and so I think the easiest way will be to stake (ideally in your *own* validator node, not someone else's) and earn income off of blockchain sales (some of the fee you pay goes to the validator). By then also nobody will afford ETH so they'll move to its L2's, and the L2's are who will be doing all the ETH blockchain sales. But I still want ETH by then, so my options are running out. An L2 might have a block that's generated $10,000 in income for them and they need to buy ETH to pay for the space to post it. They'll value it much more than I do. And there will be 1/10th as much available as today. So as the prices drop now before this happens I feel it's my last chance at ever acquiring the full 32 ETH necessary for a validator. And it's 32 and not 0.32 for a few reasons. Mostly the network can't handle too many validators without increasing hardware requirements by a lot (which inches toward centralization as fewer people can afford it) and the 32 number was chosen when ETH was around $100 and I don't think anyone thought it'd be nearly $5000 a couple years later. As hardware gets better the number can lessen, and there's already talks of specialized validators with 1 ETH stake but that won't be for a while.

JSammut29

Biggest purchase I made with Bitcoin was for my glasses cause the bank got hacked and shut off POS so I used bitcoin. 2 grand pair of glasses lol Bought that bitcoin back a couple weeks later though so it ain't no thang

coinfeeds-bot

tldr; Tezos has successfully completed its 10th forkless network upgrade called Jakarta 2, named after a different city in the world. Tezos features a unique type of POS, Liquid Proof-Of-Stake, which allows users to move their XTZ out of delegation at any time. Transactions Optimistic Rollups will introduce layer 2 addresses to the blockchain. Michelson Tickets will allow developers to avoid centralized smart contracts for tokens. *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*

oneawesomewave

Apart from the fact that there are such coins (POS)... the energy consumption BTC is not unnecessary - it's a matter of safety. Other currencies are backed by arms - BTC is backed by energy. Energy consumption is just comparatively simple to calculate. I'm not in the camp of green BTC, but the consumption argument is overblown imho. Likewise the darkweb use is a narrative - BTC is so much worse to use for illegal matters than cash. Then, the argument of neo-fascists...I consider myself antifa, but I still use the same currency as fascists and other criminals $€BTC. Just to say that the argument of bad actors is selective - like with other public infrastructures they can, of course, be used for good and for bad. Things are not that one-sided.

AppropriateIce6287

Winter is here, not coming. It’s gonna be a bit of a long one, relatively speaking. 2023 will likely see a massive rebound, at least by Q3. Objective for all should be to survive the winter in tact, with assets (not just crypto of course). Personally, make yourself indispensable at work however possible. Stay at current income and wealth (by asset accumulation, not by what the market says those assets are worth in USD). If you make it through, with considerable assets and a good job, you’ll see a 5x 2023 - 2028 History will remember 2023 - 2030 as the “second roaring twenties” And please, vote goddamn Republican next election. Hopefully it’s not the POS Trump who is the candidate, but instead someone with at least a shred of integrity and moral aptitude , but for all that is good — we gotta get rid of this “handout” culture of printing money and everyone acting like 5th generation rich kids. Button your shit up, stay employed, accumulate good assets by volume not USD current market value . Wait a year to have kids

Fancy_Dragonfruit696

>ut Centralization is a spectru ERGO is PoW. Not POS. Moving to validators via the merge for ETH, makes it so they have the power to whatever they want with ETH. It puts the power into the hands of a few, rather than a PoW, which puts it in miners that's decentralized.

Successful_Breath_66

Obviously it’s not Btc, but Centralization is a spectrum. If you look at Ethereum’s token distribution and number of validators compared to other POS like ergo it is absolutely more decentralized.

CleazyCatalystAD

Not sure what youre into buying (bonds, equities, real estate?), but good luck with your portfolio, bro! News flash: values of most all assets other than bonds are going down for the next few months, not just Bitcoin. Inevitably, the fed will have to start printing again, QE will start again, and the 4 year Bitcoin cycle starts all over again. Id rather be holding Bitcoin than some POS equity (disclaimer: I hold a crap load of POS equities and ETFs).

Paskee

How would you reward validators ? No fees, validators have no reason to invest hence no POS mechanisam.

Fancy_Dragonfruit696

Once ETH 2.0 happens, there's no decentralization for ETH. Saying ETH is more decentralized shows me you lack knowledge of how POS works.

Fancy_Dragonfruit696

You come off as super ignorant. Proof of Stake makes ETH 2.0 CENTRALIZED. Not decentralized. Put the crack pipe down. Read some books on POS and POW, and figure out there's a huge difference.

aroulis69

What do you mean how ? You just send him BTC. Same way they are accepting cards with POS systems and same way you give your IBAN to receive your payment

NearbyTurnover

Whales only make POS centralized. POW will always need investment and thus decentralization.

ismirschlecht

>AOL was one of the first to bring internet 1.0 (I know it was probably 2.0 but bear with me) They charged per minute and gave out disks that tracked usage. Internet per minute. Isn’t crypto in that space now? Paying per transaction. Using transaction fees and or POS to generate coins? A comparison like this doesn't make any sense.