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Weird take. Bitcoin is correlated with risk-on assets. PE is a risk-on asset. When risk-on assets melt down, so does Bitcoin.
Sol will be burnt soon. It is PE backed and soon it won't be worth the effort. I would look somewhere else.
It’s not - PE, VC, LE etc. all doing well.
I understand why some people think this is a good idea. I don't respect it but i understand the draw. What i don't understand is how this would possibly last. It either forces taking losses/selling or forces doing banking/investments in other places (hiding gains. Foreign investment or private equity style investment). Neither helps a local economy. Rather, PE can help but then it's a privileged club to join and likely eventually get taken over by thugs.
I'd suggest something in equities. Like a specific gold or silver miner with a low PE ratio and large underground holdings. But you're barking up the wrong tree looking for a 10x, it's all gonna be ultra high risk.
Speculation. All speculation on if they execute well and become a stable mature non exciting company with a reasonable PE. They want to own early. Again, 383 P/E means that sellers aren't willing to sell for less and buyers are willing to pay that price. It is all a supply and demand curve. Have a whole bunch of people want to sell and not enough buyers, prices go down. Have a whole lot of buyers and not enough sellers price goes up.
Jesus Christ, is “fundamentals” the new buzz word on this sub or something. Bitcoin has no fundamentals, it has no cash flow, no balance sheet, no PE ratio, doesn’t produce anything and doesn’t provide a service. It’s pure speculation and we all know it, if it wasn’t, then you moon boys wouldn’t be constantly blabbing on about loading up on cheap bitcoin as it will be worth millions in a few years. Ask yourself this, if bitcoins price was stable, and you knew it wouldn’t go up or down, at all, would you go through the trouble of holding it on your hardware wallet, transferring it out when you need to buy something, transferring your change back in, remembering your magic words and all the bullshit that goes with it, or would you just use dollars and a bank?
> Fundamentals have not changed You might want to learn what fundamentals are. Crypto does not have fundamentals. In traditional markets, understanding value of companies comes from fundamental analysis. Fundamentals in investing are based on revenues, earnings, future growth, return on equity, profit margins, PE, the economy, interest rates and other financial data to determine the fair market value of a company. Crypto does not have these sort of fundamentals. Crypto is based almost purely on speculation. BTC itself is a speculative asset and the entire Alt market generally have a correlation coeffieent of ~0.90 and just follow BTC up and down and inherently have no fundamental value in themselves. ETH is a double speculative asset that has been underperforming almost everything for 8 years and historically has a 0.96 correlation coefficient to BTC only appreciates when BTC goes on bullruns. - Summer 2017, ETH hits ATH of $400 after BTC hits local top of $3,000 - January 2018, ETH hits ATH of $1,400 after BTC hits cycle top of $20K - May 2021, ETH hits ATH after BTC tops out in April 2021 - Nov 2021. ETH hits ATH in December after BTC tops out in November 2021 - August 2025. ETH briefly touches past 2021 ATH after BTC breaks $120K Not only is ETH a double speculative asset but it is a leveraged on-chain casino coin that primed for liquidations in market downturns > *ETH is a casino coin whose value is a mirage derived from stacking on-chain leverage in places like Aave, Maker, etc where ETH is the dominant collateral asset for gambling for ETH and various shitcoin tokens people think are DeFi.* **When the shit hits the fan, you have cascading ETH liquidations to reveal the ugly shitcoinery lying underneath. (Feb. 2025)** https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1igeysk/the_eth_to_btc_ratio_just_flash_crashed_to_02337/mapylwj/ > **I think one day people will realize how insane a run ETH had in 2020/21 and fools were forever chasing that euphoria. (Feb. 2025)** > One of the things people seem to be missing is how much of a leveraged casino coin ETH was that drove this rise. Before the bullrun started in 2020, ETH was sitting at a relatively small ~$30 Billion marketcap. DAI was also sitting with $250 Million minted. > BTC started running in Q3 and by peak of the run, ETH was used locked as the native asset to mint $6.2 Billion in DAI. That $6.2 Billion is a massive injection of money into $30 Billion marketcap with an undertoe of a parabolic BTC bullrun and bullish sentiment. Compare that to the total of only ~$3 Billion inflow into ETFs today when ETH is ~$300 Billion marketcap and it's easy to see why the marketcap won't budge much. > Leveraging ETH to pump its markecap is not dissimilar to burning LUNA to mint UST which drove LUNA to a $40 Billion marketcap. Everyone calls that a scam mechanism but the same type of mechanism that pumped ETH is considered DeFI. > BTC parabolic moves, leveraged native ETH to mint DAI, DeFi casino narrative, NFTs, staking hype, triple halving memes, ultra-sound monies.......and Covid lockdown and money > It was a perfect storm. https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1indhrk/daily_crypto_discussion_february_12_2025_gmt0/mcdygp1/?context=3
There are some similarities, but you are being too reductionist. Yes, the stock market is definitely inflated by passive 401 (k) inflows. There are many well-published academic papers showing that SP500 passive DCAing is a key driver of PE expansion relative to real growth and a vast decrease in liquidity-adjustment efficiency. Now let me tell you where you run. 1) SP500 is basically a hedge fund, not the stock market. You aren't stock picking. The hedge fund is doing all the work, and its market-weight approach skews towards a survival-ship bias. People are DCAing into it because of simple consistency and familiarity. Your "memecoins" these days are just new runners to generate volume to print fees for launchpads and trading apps. Your activity is really about centering attention on a game of hot potato. Hence, there is no room for stupid passive investing. The adjustment of these metas happens so fast; a lack of consistency in preferences, no follow up bid after hitting certain market cap etc., means a fund using a market-weight approach, like the SP500, is doomed to tend towards zero. The VCs understand that their best way to earn a slice of this market is to keep things dispersed and profit from selling volatility. It makes things predictable and milkable. You want to fence the cows and sheeps rather than let them roam free.
My best guess: If ASIC machines are physically in India, the foreign company would in effect have a PE (permanent establishment) in India. Corporate tax rate on foreign companies with PE is effectively 36-38. Mining is a core income generating activity, not an auxiliary one.
No wonder why meme coins are no longer a trend. And looks like it will take awhile before we see it back. I mean, it's now easier to launch a token, create a liquidity pool, then dump. In the meantime, you may want to consider RWA tokenization. r/Tessera_PE is a platform that allows users to buy pre-IPO shares, gives us retail investors 100% of the cash upside of the equity.
Well, unlike crypto, Casinos and gambling are well marketed not only by social media but also mainstream media. I mean, everywhere! every sport, there's betting, makes crypto trading boring, technical, say less about the probability to earn is small and slow. So, no wonder why the easier path is being chosen. Anyway, if you're just looking to earn more, I suggest, check on r/Tessera_PE, this project allows anyone to buy pre-IPO shares giving you the 100% cash upside of the equity.
Market maturity. Volatility will go down, but so will risk (hopefully). Some cryptocurrencies are a stocks now? Whats the PE?
So I would never buy an equity holding btc over btc, but what management fees. There are none, it’s an equity, not PE, not an ETF, etc. This is lazy or fake commentary. Please sir, do better.
Who’s gonna rug pull when there were 0 VCs or PE involved? All the tokens went to the community. XRP, cardano, BTC, ETH, avalanche etc. there is nobody to rug. The entire crypto community owns the airdrop, rofl. Btw, it’s up 700% since launch a month ago. Please, do more research because your post is ignorant. Disclaimer: I don’t own any NIGHT. I’ll get a few hundred airdropped to me. Maybe I’ll rug with my $100 worth. LOL. Maybe you’ll rug with your few hundred. This is why it’s up 700%. Because the entire crypto community got the airdrop and 0 went to VC’s. 😂 😭
Interesting setup. A profitable Bitcoin-related company with a low PE is rare, but consistent selling after positive news usually means the market is pricing in risks beyond headlines (dilution, sustainability of rewards, or growth concerns). Russell 2000 inclusion can also cause short-term pressure from rebalancing. If that disconnect resolves, the upside case becomes more compelling.
Doing public accounting at a B4 firm. Honestly didn’t learn that much from my degrees (accounting/finance double Major and Econ minor). But the first few years of auditing big public companies really taught me how to evaluate companies financials and read financial reports. That let me start doing a lot more research on my own and helped me a TON in my career. And also for spotting things that may shake up the current financial system or change the older way of doing things. Also networking in general with smart people. In my phone right now I have 5-6 CFOs I can call if I need help with something, a couple of accounting partners. Some friends that ended up going the IB -> PE route, people that went to go get high level MBA’s friends from college that did engineering. Talking with all of them and just seeing what people are looking into or excited about has given me more ROI than anything I’ve really ever learned at work.
I can tell you why I don’t buy them anymore minus a few coins I think have real utility and even those I can’t buy large amounts. I’d much rather buy stocks. I’ve hit on palantir bought at $7, Sofi bought at 4, AMD bought at 80ish, Google in April, meta a few years back. Bought at 88. I have earnings to go by. PE to go by. What actual metric do you use in crypto to justify buying a coin? Users? On chain transactions? I just don’t trust these metrics. Also if you buy coin that doesn’t go up for 2 years then you wasted all that time you could have been invested in the stock market making money. People go to crypto for the big swings hoping to make a lot of money quickly. If that goes away so does the crowd of retail investors.
How is saying BTC has no fundamentals shitting on BTC? BTC has no fundamentals. It's purely speculative. Just like Gold has no fundamentals. It's purely speculative. This is why Warren Buffet won't buy gold. You might want to learn what fundamentals are. Crypto does not have fundamentals. In traditional markets, understanding value of companies comes from fundamental analysis. Fundamentals in investing are based on revenues, earnings, future growth, return on equity, profit margins, PE, the economy, interest rates and other financial data to determine the fair market value of a company. Crypto does not have these sort of fundamentals. Crypto is based almost purely on speculation. And the entire Alt market generally have a correlation coeffieent of ~0.90 and just follow BTC up and down and inherently have no fundamental value in themselves. They are double speculative assets that only rise in BTC bullruns. Just facts.
terrible? how so? stock market at all time highs, rates coming down tarrif free inflation is estimated at the target 2%? what macro is terrible? also this ai bubble people keep rumouring... Nvidia (when i last checked) had a PE ratio of 22.... that's really quite low for the NYSE.... the Fed also spoke about the neutrality of there stance atm and how monetary policy has them in the best position possible for the next wave of data, with hope of more rate cuts next year. what macro condition have you invented for it to be "terrible"? lol
For the shrinking minority that down own our keys, great. But I hate to think what would happen to the faith in BTC if/when VC/PE/banking does what it does. BTC loses its value if the only people left are bit players. If the financial institutions are spooked, and their clients are spooked, the holders are cooked.
Was Burry correct about the housing market? Yes. However, the market wasn't. The market wasn't trading rationally, it was trading greedy. Therefor, we got the bubble. So, Burry in this case, was 'correct', while the market wasn't. I'm not really making a claim about Burry here. Just pointing out that he tends to expect the market to trade more efficiently than it does. So, he gets into these positions where he is the contrarian, often making his investments bad. Again, the housing crisis was, for a long time, a very bad investment. >His "deep-value" rationality is simply the PE ratio, which is mostly irrelevant for assessing value to most investors. Exactly. This is his problem. That is my only claim here. He can't apply his PE ratio to BTC, so he says its worthless. Is he correct? Maybe. But right now, the markets disagree, and he seems to be in denial of that.
You can't possibly claim that Burry is rational and everyone is not, his view is not a reference frame for entire market. His "deep-value" rationality is simply the PE ratio, which is mostly irrelevant for assessing value to most investors. Crypto aside, He'a been consistently wrong about tech stocks for more than a decade, long before this alleged "AI bubble". He just doesn't understand tech, or 21st century economy. Even Buffet has been wrong about market for about 3 years. BRK started unloading their positions 3 years ago anticipating a recession that never came. They've been sitting in hundreds of billions of cash while watching market reaching new highs after new high. Buffet is oracle, but eventually he became outdated. Burry is no god, he's just a gambler.
Agreed the fundamentals are looking poor… crazy high PE ratio, weak Q3 earnings report and they just revised down forward earnings forecasts.
Nonetheless, execution was inadequate. Thick PE bags are not conducive to decomposition of contents. Besides, i question if a desert is an optimal location in the first place, being hot and dry. I reckon the sea, of which there is plenty around the UAE, would be a lore suitable place, especially if dismemberment has occurred.
🙋♂️ Bought $2500 worth in 1995. Couple years later sold $2500 to cash out my original investment, kept the rest. Today I have almost 2,000 shares at a cost basis of 92 cents each. Never touched them. But thinking about paying off my house if it gets to $300 before the market realizes that PE ratio is crazy.
>The price goes up in the first place because Apple will be able to pay out more per share. If this were how markets moved, there wouldn't be stocks with 1-400x PE. Nobody thinks that the stock is going to be able to earn 400x to 'pay you out'. Markets trade on sentiment. Not expectation of the company buying your shares from you.
The same reason companies trade at a multiple of their PE.
> Mmm, I'd argue the more general objective of fiat is to absorb economic shocks by fully abstracting out the concept of value from any arbitrary concrete resource. Fiat doesn't "absorb" anything. Only the real economy absorbs economic shocks - read up on the concept of "money neutrality". Economic shocks cause the economy to adjust. Some shocks are structural, e.g., the shift from the US manufacturing economy to the US services economy. Some shocks are transitory, like a short-term recession. In either case, there is a transitioning period. Different schools of thought advocate different approaches to handling the transition. The fringe Austrians argue for Darwinism, aka no intervention. The more mainstream argument is that the central bank has a role in intervening to ease the pain of transition through monetary policy tools. And that easing, usually always translates to debasing the currency in the long run. > but sometimes it isn't (e.g. the Volcker years). Congress sets out a dual mandate. You don't want an inflation situation running into another Weimar Republic. When it gets out of control, the long-run cost is that fiat loses all coordination value and, in turn, hurts long-run employment levels. In the long run, it nearly always ties back to the government's social contract with the public to stabilize unemployment. > It's a little strange to characterize investment as "hiding wealth." Most of the wealth throughout history has been "hidden" (i.e. invested) in less liquid, more productive assets, There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING PRODUCTIVE with the Chinese overinvesting in their real estate market. China has a whopping 25.21 housing price-to-income ratio! In comparison, in the US, the ratio is 3.44. What it means, these Chinese houses are not built for average ownership. They just sit there for buyers to pass their cost basis from one person to another. Most of these apartments are fucking vacant for years, and they are still priced above what people can afford. That is not a natural outcome for the market of "productive assets". Since September 2006, the SP500's PE has grown close to 2x. There is NOTHING PRODUCTIVE about growing a PE ratio. These trends are literally people trying to escape from currency debasement. > (Which is why Bitcoin and cryptos are not "cash".) That is something I agree with. Crypto narrative-as-cash is an IQ trap. The crypto market reflects that. Crypto assets branding themselves as "cash" don't perform well as a store of value. > given network's native coin can be valued by how economically productive the network is. That doesn't make sense. You need to assess the asset's comparative advantage before deciding how to use it. Decentralized computing is slow and expensive. You need to pay multiple operators to do the same shit over and over to get a consensus. It is not what the business world often needs. Take the example of AI compute: you need fast and low-latency compute. Fitting decentralized computing into the situation is like trying to square a circle. > anymore than stock shares or corporate bonds would be. Stocks and corporate bonds are subject to termination risk. If the company goes bankrupt, your claims go to shit. This is where decentralized compute for crypto is important. It eliminates the termination risk as the ledger is distributed.
Since the PE ratio is very high everywhere, you essentially buy any stock with a better past performance, you are betting on its future growth and hoping you are right. If you open a bottle of wine and enjoy the view you live in the property so it doesn't earns. You pay taxes, electric, water, etc. If you have wine cellar, you are an entrepreneur. You have to work to make wine from grapes. If you rent your wine cellar you have to calculate the value of your asset now (NOT in the past and NOT 0 because you inherited, the ACTUAL market value if you sell it now) and divide it the net (after taxes, etc) rental price.
Like the other PE firms like Apollo, they're hiding a liquidity crisis due to toxic loans to regional banks that they're associate with. All these regional banks are defaulting and BlackRock needs to liquidate to survive.
Assets based on sentiment going down always a tough hold right? It's not like there is a fundamental floor where the valuation doesn't make sense based on FCFs, or PE ratios etc.
Post is by: LongjumpingPresent19 and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoMarkets/comments/1ot0zgz/us_currency_market_gov_dollar_make_it_make_sense/ I’m a pretty street smart, work in finance, have taken the red pill, yet cannot put my finger on what’s playing out here across the topics below. I have to imagine this feels a lot like what it felt like in 1970 before the reset or in 2007 pre-recession, but it’s like a mix of The Big Short, Terminator, Anastasia, Squid Games… and everything happening all at once, which I realize is by design. I know I’m not the only one feeling this, so let’s put on some tinfoil hats and figure this out… 1. Currency & Dollar Debasement - [ ] The Genius Act with stable coins tied to treasuries… - [ ] Hedge funds currently holding up US Treasuries - [ ] Nonstop printing/ debasement of the dollar - [ ] Global shift toward CBDC, stablecoins, digital IDs, etc. - [ ] This admin and its cronies pushing BTC and stablecoins simultaneously - [ ] JPMC still only owns about $1M worth of BTC - [ ] Various BRICs backing investments in gold while we open up AK mining for gold and invest tons of money into nuclear power - [ ] DOGE doing whatever the hell it did with our info 2. Economy - [ ] Constant, impending crash, reset or rug pull - [ ] Endless bailouts- Basically, real estate, healthcare, insurance, cars, banks are all living off gov subsidies (aka our taxes and value of the dollar?) - [ ] Big Beautiful Bill incentivizing home buying amidst property taxes rising, institutional investors and so many Boomers dying off - [ ] UN “you’ll own nothing and be happy” - [ ] All of Trump’s comments about paying off the national debt with bitcoin - [ ] Gov allowing PE access to our 401ks - [ ] Gov withholding benefits distributed directly from their hands, while deepening reliance on every facet of “private markets” via constant bail, outs and inflation - [ ] The AI genie is out of the bottle and going to inhibit our ability to maintain careers/ stable pay Questions/ hunches I have, but haven’t fully pieced together: - [ ] Switch to stable coins feels like a pseudo-nationalism currency play on US gov spending? But aren’t the stablecoins even worse than our fiat dollars if they can still be devalued by “printing?” Even worse, these would incentivize the gov to keep over spending and allow them to further monitor us… - [ ] Hasn’t every empire who tried to nationalize their currency faced sabotage? Or are we going to stage wars (or currency crusades) to impose the US stablecoins on others? - [ ] Does this further cuff us to the sinking US ship? - [ ] Is this admin moving toward the WEF’s wishes or against? - [ ] The Hedge Funds have insider info from the admin and are hiding their money in treasuries for some sort of windfall to come? - [ ] Various BRICs backing investments in gold—is the next war going to be around 2 world currencies? One backed by gold, one backed by the US gov’s P&L? - [ ] Or are we going to devalue gold via the AK mining? Also, isn’t gold made via nuclear fusion? We’re investing a ton into nuclear, how long until we can make gold in a lab? - [ ] Was Elon’s point about no currency and just energy referring to BTC, carbon credits or otherwise? - [ ] This admin and its cronies pushing BTC, but if it were truly valuable wouldn’t they’d wanna keep it to themselves? - [ ] Yet there’s no plans for regulating it and the genius act or otherwise, so is it truly the sovereign hedge? - [ ] DOGE- let me guess they’re going to say Russia breached our data, we have to shut down Social Security, and here’s a new digital asset account for you all set up and ready to go? - [ ] BTC becomes a non-regulated store of value hedge, but it can still be confiscated? - [ ] What happens to the credit card networks in this? - [ ] What leverage do we have? - [ ] Beyond your religious beliefs, community and nature, what does sovereignty actually look like in this mess? *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Mate, it’s only got a PE ratio of 13, that’s crazy for a tech company. I’d say 200k plus is a fair value. You watch, the upcoming earnings report will be crazy. They’ll beat estimates easy.
I similarly worked for a company that was getting ready to shut down/move after being acquired by PE in 2011. I worked in IT and had a bunch of idle servers so I mined bitcoin on them. Life hit and I moved across the country and didn't think anything of all the bitcoin I'd mined. That shit was the last thing on my mind at the time. They're in a landfill somewhere.
So the nasdaq valuations and PE ratios of 100+ don't feel like a bubble to you?
I didn't say the S&P PE is 100, I said it could get there if everyone piles into assets. I didn't say Wall Street can beat indices. I didn't say you're brainwashed for supporting capitalism. You don't understand what you're talking about. First of all, keeping money in the bank is not just dead money. That money is used to generate returns. Of course the bank is then taking that risk, and benefiting. You can argue it's not sensible keeping a lot of cash, and I agree. I'm saying that a system that forces one's hand to take risk, is a bullshit, broken system. That's why we are in Bitcoin, and I'm happy to be here because I view it as being risk-off from the standpoint of predictability.
>You aren’t “supposed to” have to risk your money in order to protect it. That’s ridiculous. That's called capitalism. Are you a socialist? > You okay with a PE of 100 in the S&P? Last time I checked, it's at 31. What's the P/E of bitcoin? >People should not have to risk their hard earned money if they don’t want to So you're a socialist
You aren’t “supposed to” have to risk your money in order to protect it. That’s ridiculous. Also, let’s hear what you think about what happens to multiples in assets if everyone piles in with cash? You okay with a PE of 100 in the S&P? Are you okay with everyone being at the whims of Wall Street? People should not have to risk their hard earned money if they don’t want to. That’s why Bitcoin feels so good to take part in, it’s not inherently risky in the same way as stocks. It is predictable.
You're only asking this question because you live in a country where the currency has strong international recognition. If you lived in Venesuela you would have a totally different understanding. Fiat works as long as other people believe in the stability and strength of it, so you can technically print as long as you're the best of the bunch, but the issue is at some point people/countries loose faith because the debt piles up too high and they look for an alternative. Think about stocks with high PE ratios. They can support high PE ratios because people believe that they are a growth company and future innovations/products will eventually lead to more income, but if that income never comes people lose faith and take their money out and the stock price collapses. That's the economy of countries with "strong" currencies.
FAKE: This did not happen - fabricated, staged bullshit post to promote Bitcoin/Bitcoin Mining as a sell on its financial viability. Curious of the source of these shill posts. I’d assume bullshit like this originates from IAs (financial), ‘Big Bitcoin’ & the subreddit itself, and/or large-scale marketing efforts pushing BTC on a public/mass level as a societal utility — rather than private interests like investors, banks + PE firms, involved tech companies, Etc. Purpose seems to be to people towards investing in Bitcoin to promote and make involvement with the currency more common on a societal level. Bro even included “paying off my mortgage” to appeal to target audiences, like every other advertisement for financial services etc.: *”IT HELPED ME PAY OWF MY ENTIRE MORTGAGE! CAWLL 1-800-BIG-CASH-NOW! TAH PAY OFF YOAH MORTGAGE!”*
Growth stocks with high future PE ratios definitely follow this speculative pattern. Value stocks and dividend stocks with low 10-15 PE ratios actually have profits that represent a huge portion of their market cap. Unfortunately, value stocks are no longer attractive since everyone wants to chase get-rich-quick speculative investments.
Don't project. If the standard is “institutions won’t touch anything that can go to zero,” then explain why venture capitalists exists, why PE buys distressed assets, why junk bonds are used by pension funds, why hedge funds hold commodities, and why growth stocks with no cash flow get trillion-dollar valuations. The world’s biggest money allocators don’t avoid risk, they price it. The difference between a degen and an institution isn’t risk aversion, it’s structuring and time horizon. Capital doesn’t chase safety. Capital chases asymmetric payoff. Bitcoin proved that model already, the rest of crypto is just whether new narratives can earn that same trust curve. “institutions don’t touch things that can go to zero” funny because history shows the exact opposite. BlackRock, Fidelity, Wellington, Goldman, CalPERS, the whole crew were neck deep in dot-com companies that literally went to zero: Pets.com Webvan Global Crossing eToys Excite@Home Lycos (acquired then value collapsed so basically zero) And those weren’t retail gamblers, those were institutional allocations from pension funds, sovereign money, and the same firms now buying Bitcoin ETFs. Institutions didn’t stop investing in tech after many of their dot-com investments went to zero either… They just priced risk better the next cycle. Dot com wipeouts paved the way for: Amazon Google Meta Nvidia Salesforce Now imagine they looked at those stocks and said NO WAY, that's too much risk! Remember our last stocks that went to zero! I'll say again, check your emotions at the door, trading and investing is not for the emotional weak. You pretend too sound like you understand “institutional money flow,” but you're actually describing a world that has never existed. If institutions avoided assets with a nonzero chance of going to zero, VC, tech, biotech, commodities, growth equities, and crypto wouldn’t exist as asset classes.
i don't see how your comment is relevant to what i pointed out. stock market and PE ratios were hot prior covid where "experts" anticipating a correction. after covid, high inflation and money printing added to the problems. yet, non of this preventing stock mkt, gold and btc from goin up up up. not only in US but in the developed world economies, stock mkts have been goin up not cuz they're doin well economically but cuz stock prices needing adjustment to not stay behind of inflation.
There are vehicles which allow you to expose your bitcoin to insurance returns. As a bitcoin holder you still get the capital appreciation of BTC, but you also get insurance returns (typically only available to large PE investors). Of course that comes with a little extra risk too, but over the long term generates a significant risk adjusted profit.
That’s just the start We are going to see a lot of these, with PE jumping in and taking over discount treasury or companies go bust
I've been saying this in /r/cryptocurrency for the last 8 years > **Crypto does not have fundamentals.** Fundamentals in investing are based on revenues, earnings, future growth, return on equity, profit margins, PE, the economy, interest rates and other financial data to determine the fair market value of a company. > **Crypto is based almost purely on speculation and hopium** and naive crypto investors think that a coin is fast, cheap or has perceived great tech has great fundamentals. This is why most crypto investors lose money. https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/14axbzd/comment/jodb63d/
Post is by: Imcrypto3 and the url/text [ ](https://goo.gl/GP6ppk)is: /r/CryptoStock/comments/1o0zz9u/clsk_vs_iren/ Here’s a quick rundown of the market caps, earnings per share, price-to-earnings ratio, price-to-earnings-to-growth ratio, price-to-book ratio, and total revenue for IREN and CLSK: Market Cap: - IREN: $13.72B - CLSK: $4.48B Earnings Per Share (EPS): - IREN: $0.39 - CLSK: $0.86 Price-to-Earnings Ratio (PE Ratio): - IREN: 129.38 - CLSK: 18.53 Price-to-Earnings-to-Growth Ratio (PEG Ratio): - IREN: 4.05 - CLSK: 0.00 Price-to-Book Ratio (PS Ratio): - IREN: 27.39 - CLSK: 7.09 Price-to-Book Ratio (PB Ratio): - IREN: 7.04 - CLSK: 1.98 Total Revenue (TTM): - IREN: $449.66M - CLSK: $542.66M Gross Profit (TTM): - IREN: $298.39M - CLSK: $296.82M EBITDA (TTM): - IREN: $302.04M - CLSK: $635.96M *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CryptoMarkets) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Productive? Do you see all the crap this forcing function produces? ZIRP spawned the worst of this. Zombie companies, billion dollar raises on air, hyperinflated stock markets at 50x PE. Your arguments are a joke and cope while you get robbed blind.
Don’t let u/PE_Diablow see this
This is what happens when banks & PE firms get involved. Bitcoin was the solution to excluding banks & governments from the citizens energy (working) and then needing to ASK us for money instead of just printing. Y'all got nobody to blame, we should have set the regulations, instead you literally invited the devil himself to do it smh.
You are talking about palantir right? PE maxing
I can't say much about BTC itself since other than historical pricing, which mostly means nothing, there's no real way to track the value (people's faith in it). But the stock market is over-priced. Are you really calling for hard examples? Because I can show the evidence. There's also a factor people are not considering which is a more longterm issue: Boomers are retiring. And with retirement comes a pull on investments for living expenses. The expected PE ratios of the market should fall where There's less demand for those investments. And they're already bloated as is. The worst part? Boomers aren't going to be working anymore, which drives up the cost of everything. Again, longterm issue. But relevant to the point that dumping everything you have into something blindly might just be feeding the disaster machine. Longterm investments are still a core strategy. But I'm buying less now and will wait to buy later.
HOOD isn’t a surprise inclusion tbh, it’s been eligible for a while and has a not insane PE for high growth (fin)tech. I don’t think S&P wants the volatility that comes with leveraged BTC exposure
Is it weird to think that BTC is the most accessible thing we (normies) can purchase that will likely return something like \~20-30% per year for the next few decades? Some years more, some less but itll out perform the s&p500 and gold, you dont have to be an accredited investor or have the inside scoop on some PE investments
Before that we'll see the PE bubble pop. I don't think the crypto bubble is big enough to tank the entire economy ...yet. The PE bubble already is. And it's ripe as can be.
Key difference is that Caradano is not PE, there’s no investors to pay off. Cardano investments include partnerships with various universities, https://docs.cardano.org/pioneer-programs/education
I know this will be downvoted, however Bitcoin has no intrinsic value and therefore can go to any number. It lacks a PE ratio and doesn't produce anything. I have clearly been wrong for a very long time, however it is scary and I actually understand the mathematics involved. Therefore it can go to the moon or floor based on animal spirits. Peace to all
Maybe. Top ten sp500 average PE 50 Total sp500 is 23.5 Historical average 16. Very few companies are seeing ROI on massive AI investments. Crypto, which arguably has no intrinsic value, is at an astronomical market cap. I think we are in a bubble. All the while people are making predictions that Bitcoin total market cap will go to 30 trillion, if it goes to one million, that means people would have to sell assets like houses and stocks to relocate into crypto. Which won't happen, because what happens when there are no more buyers...it doesn't give you rent money like a house or a dividend like a stock. It's not a housing bubble like 2008, but an everything else bubble. I may be early. I just take my free $200/month in coupon payments from VGLT and wait for interest rates to fall, or sp500 and Bitcoin fall to a more reasonable valuation, or I get lucky and they all happen in the order I am hoping. I definitely could be early or wrong. But I am autistic and see patterns, and finances are one of my things, I could be early but I don't feel I am wrong about this either.
Its a complex matter. But basically monetary policy from the FED is a main driver. Its all about how much liquidity is in the markets. Maybe watch this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZFhsTy8PE), I didnt watch it but CoinBureau usually are doing a good job at explaining such things. I would strongly advise against just blindly picking something from the Top 10. Do some research about the coins you want to invest in. It could very well be that a lot of coins you see in the top 20 at the moment wont be there in 4 years and some of them will most likely never come back. You need to get a sense of whats popular and has staying power. If youre a beginner I would stick to BTC and ETH (DCAing in the bearmarket). Also learn about how fiat works and how the monetary policy is driving markets. I hope this helps, fare well!
Couldn’t meet quarterly earnings target, too high PE
Yep, people can for sure make decisions that are irrational based on the available information. For example, based on the public data available it is irrational to value TSLA anywhere close to how highly it is valued. It doesn't match the PE ratio, it doesn't match the free cash flow, it doesn't match any probable potential future earnings. It is entirely based on people irrationally believing TSLA will definitely claim the majority electric car market/ that Elon Musk is a genius that is guaranteed to make TSLA great.
Hidden gem imo, there's very few protocols with tier A clients (Coinbase) and a high PE rate.
I had to do some reading about this, but yeah , the reason PE is doing this is because the music stopped and PE investors are now stuck holding the bag for liquid toxic assets and now they need a new fall guy, and who better than the 401k holders.
658M in revenue and 482M in loss.. there is a lot of gambling on this stock with PE ratio almost 2000. I believe in the stablecoins, but not this valuation..
Never, under any circumstance, trust those fuckers, they are like a mob, cashing in the back commisions to sell you expensive PE shit
MSTR outperformed BTC in latest 5Y and latest year... Actually always outperformed it. One of their business currently is literally having cheap BTC, but grew faster as stock PE is way high
Another question to ponder... what happens if the Mag 7 are disrupted by AI? What are the odds of this? How do you feel about the current PE ratio given this disruption risk?
It's reflected more & more with stock / index valuations these days as inflation & wealth-concentration continue to increase. The stock market is a prime example, with current companies garnering valuations far more than they "should" be worth, even with companies that have PE of 30, 50, even Tesla's current PE of *189*. They're being valuated at an amount that their revenue couldn't match in 50 years (or in Tesla's case, currently nearly 2 centuries). But what else do you do with spare billions in loose cash but invest in speculative, inflated markets?
Who was pointing the finger at Boomers? I was saying that PE was going to make sure they didn't get a chance to pass on their wealth.
Fomo, but self-aware. I would call it calculated FOMO. It seems obvious to strengthen my stack when comparing the current catalysts to the current inhibitors of Bitcoin. In the bigger picture, I believe Bitcoin’s price movement is inseparable from FOMO. “Treasury” Companies and PE are all fomo’ing in faster than most retail investors realize.
It does. For me it was also important to put myself in a position to work as much, or as little as I want, while still generating means of acquiring more Bitcoin. The simplest way to do that is owning companies and PE. “x” number of Bitcoin being enough to retire doesn’t compute for me. I use Bitcoin every day with its intended purpose: as money. Most days I just try and spend less than I buy.
Use Nakamoto coefficient to measure decentralization is like using PE to decide whether a stock is a good buy.
Yep, this is it Especially with stocks at these PE levels
Btc, treasury companies, gold, silver, RE, PE, tbills, commodities, long short, trend following, macro, silver leases, an orchard for food, and a tesla i hope to add to the fleet.
Commodities don’t have PE ratios.
It also depends if you're talking about forward or trailing PE ratios. They can use the average over a length of time, but that's historical, not what you were implying. Hence why I said that is not correct. You implied that it would take 2600 years to earn what they earned.
I was also speaking about your end equation and how the market cap is essentially the same thing as the PE ratio. It is not. That has nothing to do with math. I bet I'm using higher-level math on a daily than you do lol. Economics is also different than math bud. Sure math is involved, but different topics.
Ok. Whatever you say bud. You seem to think something vastly incorrect and you're trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm wrong. You still want to argue despite giving you the definition. So why are YOU talking about something you do not comprehend? See how that works? Clearly, the consensus is on my side, and yet you still argue and try to tell me I'm wrong. Read the room, read the definition, do some actual reading and research, then get back to me. It my main issue is with your 2600-year thing which is just dumb and misleading. It is what an investor is willing to pay per the company's net income. Do you grasp that? Understand how there is 0 mention of time? So wtf does it have to do with 2600 years? Then you try to tell me I don't understand. That's wild. To answer your question a P/E ratio of 15 means an investor is willing to pay $15 per $1 of the company's earnings. Do you understand, now? It has 0 to do with time. A higher PE ratio SUGGESTS investors expect higher potential earnings. Thats it. I don't understand what you're talking about, nor do I genuinely care. You're just wrong. Bottom line. Now I am done arguing because it's a waste of time. You're set in you're ways and it's clear you're not willing to learn or admit you had it wrong. Idk why that's such a hard concept for you to grasp. To me, it suggests you're young and stubborn. Other than that Idc. Have fun. I'm out.
The s and p 500 will continue to have increasing PE ratios as inflation and price from money printing will increase the price from increased m2 liquidity while their earnings cannot keep up. Although they are based on a capital assets producing profit, this is based in deflationary fiat currency. Bitcoin will continue to raise in value compared to fiat currency as time goes on, there is greater adoption and demand. The value of bitcoin is inelastic, meaning that the supply does not go up as prices go to the moon. I am in a similar position to you and am just starting on my BTC journey. I am leaning towards pumping new money into BTC and leaving the other assets as a hedge. That is my risk tolerance. I have never lived through a 80% drop and do not want to sell. It is likely easier to stomach if you have some other assets.
The problem is that so little in the world looks even close to risk free when compared with bitcoin. Where's the low risk asset? Over valued US housing facing a potential unwind of US dollar reserve status? US treasuries yielding a few percent per year from a country facing bankruptcy? Stocks facing AI disruption risk with historically high PE ratios? Currencies getting debased by the day? Buying a finite asset facing an exponential adoption curve and waiting for the fiat bubble to pop again doesn't seem risky to me, it's that other stuff I'm worried about.
Strike's interest rate is 13% for a loan size of 1 BTC as collateral. It will come down with time, but it's crazy expensive due to his partners being banks and PE money - they are still using TradFi tools to try and solve this issue.
So you think someone should be investing in a company when they don’t even know what trailing PE means?
Laughs in CRWD (915 PE), DASH (809), and PLTR (671)
Whenever an analyst™ predicts 30x future PE after 150 trailing PE
i feel like satoshi is [Dorian](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=8f2d608cc335416a&rlz=1C5CHFA_enCA940CA940&sxsrf=AE3TifOFOm7C-40-d0vHbNhFXEfdQPdYSw:1748623801127&q=dorian+nakamoto&udm=2&fbs=AIIjpHxU7SXXniUZfeShr2fp4giZ1Y6MJ25_tmWITc7uy4KIeqDdErwP5rACeJAty2zADJjYuUnSkczEhozYdaq1wZrEWeBTRRMkGx8PE2F9zI9kP0W9slwfD0e_E2SCYpxxEsASI-LxkVBvfu-XibWr_YDicyb17E6vKrWBOlLdgfdjFpLOhNCkwKiTYaFviHAaGJoUkT5_nrzWq6VkkQdeHpPTQCkROQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj2iIyk08uNAxUBEzQIHRSyMMAQtKgLegQIEhAB&biw=1440&bih=684&dpr=2) 🤷🏽♂️ . the fact that he was a computer engineer and lived 10 mins away from hal finney \[who received the first BTC txn\]. Dorian also looks like what i imagined satoshi to look like idk...i dont wanna stir up drama either lol
Don’t understand why ppl think it matters so much? 1) Even with that revenue, Solana is net inflationary and prints more token in USD term than any L1. So its revenue is not really doing meaningful supply control relative to its inflation. 2) If you look at it from a “productive asset” PoV, it has a horrible PE. If you are aiming for dividends, plenty of stocks give you a better bang for your buck.
When you bet on an AI stock, you're not just betting "AI will be big". You're betting that specific company will justify the likely huge PE ratios they are trading at even though the disruption risk for every company is huge. With bitcoin you get the safety of sound money with the returns of a growth stock. There is no second best.
Probably interest rates/money printing is mostly what people discuss. But in recent times, a lot of the gains in the S&P 500 have come from PE ratio expansion and not company growth. That is not likely to be long term sustained.
Using a historical PE on the whole S&P is not a good metric. It gets mentioned all the time in stock subreddits, and many users are always quick to explain why it’s not a relevant metric.
Yes, using the CPI data. You said housing has become significantly more expensive, and it has - using the CPI data. Compared to M2, stock markets are up and housing prices are flat. The average PE ratio 30 years ago was 20, but 28 years ago it was 33, 25 years ago it was 46, 13 years ago it was 15… We’re closer to the average since 1990 today than we were 30 years ago. The forward PE however is much less volatile over time and a more relevant indicator to look at.
Yes, if you use the CPI data. Try that again with M2 increase. Looks a lot hairier now, doesn't it? Alternatively if money creation doesn't flow your boat, look at PE ratios, they're climbing up. So companies cost more relative to their income. Average PE ratio 30 years ago was 20. Average PE ratio now is in the 30s. Meaning that every dollar you put into the company will take the company 30 years to earn that dollar. I'm also not arguing the stock market is completely flat either. We're just in a situation where the stock market isn't allowed to go down or political party 1 will get voted out and political party 2 will get voted in. So to do that you season it with a little monetary debasement while you pour in some price to earnings inflation. Number go up.
I put the odds of bitcoin having the same market cap as gold in the next decade at 80% which would give it a 10x from here. Not sure what other assets you will get that in over the next decade. At the same time, stocks have a PE ratio of 27 which is 80% higher than historical medians.
VSs and PE destroyed america a long time ago.
Lots of WS and PE guys have solana and want it to replace ETH as number two.
What I don't understand is why don't they focus on real ponzis like FIAT. They don't critique it at all. Furthermore, how the top 1% own more of the USD circulation (2/3) while the other 1/3 is left for all of us to fight over. So many flaws in the dumb current financial system. How about stocks that have PE ratios of 100 and over? Sigh