LUNA

iamwizzerd

Idk personally I think all LUNA variations are done. It's really sad. I lost most of my portfolio to their stable coin. But this all seems pointless now.

Caffdy

I learned a hard lesson to keep my portfolio diversified, spread the risk, don't put all your eggs in one basket. This mistake has costed me five figures when LUNA crashed. On the other hand, learn when enough is enough and you have to quit while on the green, don't be greedy or you'll get burn; **consolidate your gains, secure your profits**, that money is only on paper until you cash it out, don't be like many who didn't sell when we where at ATH, like that doge dude who was 3.5 millions in profit, all gone because he couldn't stop craving for more.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Pr... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xu3vcu\/daily_general_discussion_october_3_2022_gmt0/).

ItsAllJustASickGame

Ppl only get the Do Kwan treatment if they lose institutional money, watch LUNA did. GME only lost money for lowly retail, so just normal market risk.

Mr_Bob_Ferguson

"MONEY" is the answer. So little of current crypto pricing is directly related to the technology that it is running on. People largely don't care about who is running it either (ie: LUNA). The best technical projects are rarely the highest valued. People will buy whatever they think will give them a quick dollar. It's all marketing any hype.

arcalus

Reminds me when people would warn about LUNA and the the rebuttal was “don’t think scam be in the top 10, bru”

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IWillKillPutin2022

LUNA fucked over a ton of people. Fucked me over cause it cause Celsius to implode

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Pr... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

34Sis

Tell this to those who lost their lifesavings in the LUNA / UST crash

CointestAdmin

#Terra Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by idevcg which won 1st place in the Terra Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Terra's entire value proposition is being propped up by its stablecoin UST, and in particular, the Anchor protocol, which has been giving out a pretty stable return of 19.5-20.5% APR so far. > > Because of how high its promise of returns is (and not on a shitcoin whose value fluctuates wildly, the value is pegged to USD for Anchor/UST), it managed to attract a huge amount of capital into the ecosystem. > > But how would Terra fare when Anchor can no longer offer such a high rate of return, or worse, if the entire system collapses? > > After all, UST is just an algorithmic stablecoin; there's nothing special about it that cannot be replicated by other platforms and smart contracts. If there was no risk, why don't all the other L1s also create a similar system to Anchor UST and offer 20% APR? > > In reality, Anchor UST currently works almost like a sort of a ponzi. > > [to quote](https://twitter.com/0xhamz/status/1506372692005593090?s=21): > > When UST per LUNA is less than LUNA mkt price -- the system is insolvent > > UST liabilities equate to 45% of the current circulating LUNA market cap > > With rapid UST adoption --- this rising floor is a vector of vulnerability. > > UST are deposits that are redeemable for LUNA tokens > > The LUNA ecosystem pays depositors to come into the ecosystem > > LUNA is paying depositors the 19.5% APY on Anchor > > But depositors are not creating organic value for LUNA > > LUNA benefits from UST adoption via swap and other usage fees > > LUNA has a 6.7% stake rate > > Borrow at 19.5% and return 6.7% won't last forever > > > /quote > > edit: Additionally, Terra is planning to buy over 10 billion dollars of bitcoin; where will those funds come from? Will they be forced to sell Terra Luna to fund this purchase? If so, what effect will that sell pressure have on the price of Luna? ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2mzj/top_10_terra_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive##wiki_terra.28luna.29) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

Terra(LUNA) {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

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jesuzombieapocalypse

Honestly I don’t think anything’s for sure unless blocks have stopped being produced altogether. I wouldn’t put more than a dollar on it as an extremely dump wildcard bet but even LUNA and UST are still tradable in a few places. Anyone who was around for the bull of the last bull market can attest to the fact that at a time like that things that have no business whatsoever pumping can and often do pump. Memecoins that have next to none of the utility of other more serious projects, memecoins that are just ripoffs of *those* memecoins, dead projects that have had no real developments since the previous bull market, with that level of hype and greed people will even buy coins they know to be scams just to try to cash out before the “developers” dump eet. I honestly wouldn’t rule anything out. Just to be clear, I wouldn’t suggest anyone put anything into those groups, I’d even tell someone to exercise caution making a big BTC or ETH buy, and extreme caution with the smaller coins that still have a multi-billion market cap. Just because anything *could* pump isn’t justification to just go around making microcap Hail Mary bets in a bear market, but the question wasn’t what will do well, it’s what won’t survive. Literally anything that’s running now could still be around, and Luna showed us anything that something that big can tank, but it’s still running. I guess that boils down to whether you define “survive” as continuing to thrive on the charts, or simply continuing to producing blocks. Maybe one of these “temporary” network interruptions with SOL ends up being permanent. We can have a high degree of confidence that BTC and ETH *will* survive in both senses, but no matter how you define survival, the further you go down the list after those, the more subjective the answer becomes.

Incredibly_Based

LUNA3

CointestAdmin

#Terra Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by idevcg which won 1st place in the Terra Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Terra's entire value proposition is being propped up by its stablecoin UST, and in particular, the Anchor protocol, which has been giving out a pretty stable return of 19.5-20.5% APR so far. > > Because of how high its promise of returns is (and not on a shitcoin whose value fluctuates wildly, the value is pegged to USD for Anchor/UST), it managed to attract a huge amount of capital into the ecosystem. > > But how would Terra fare when Anchor can no longer offer such a high rate of return, or worse, if the entire system collapses? > > After all, UST is just an algorithmic stablecoin; there's nothing special about it that cannot be replicated by other platforms and smart contracts. If there was no risk, why don't all the other L1s also create a similar system to Anchor UST and offer 20% APR? > > In reality, Anchor UST currently works almost like a sort of a ponzi. > > [to quote](https://twitter.com/0xhamz/status/1506372692005593090?s=21): > > When UST per LUNA is less than LUNA mkt price -- the system is insolvent > > UST liabilities equate to 45% of the current circulating LUNA market cap > > With rapid UST adoption --- this rising floor is a vector of vulnerability. > > UST are deposits that are redeemable for LUNA tokens > > The LUNA ecosystem pays depositors to come into the ecosystem > > LUNA is paying depositors the 19.5% APY on Anchor > > But depositors are not creating organic value for LUNA > > LUNA benefits from UST adoption via swap and other usage fees > > LUNA has a 6.7% stake rate > > Borrow at 19.5% and return 6.7% won't last forever > > > /quote > > edit: Additionally, Terra is planning to buy over 10 billion dollars of bitcoin; where will those funds come from? Will they be forced to sell Terra Luna to fund this purchase? If so, what effect will that sell pressure have on the price of Luna? ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2mzj/top_10_terra_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive##wiki_terra.28luna.29) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

Terra(LUNA) {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

Caffdy

>what shitcoin burned you the most? Take a guess . . LUNA of all things. So much for a top10 marketcap coin . . I'm sure at least I would have had more fun gambling with some microcap tokens instead

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Pr... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

Chronmagnum55

People used to absolutely hate TRON with a passion. I think that hatred has moved towards safemoon and LUNA.

halftimereport

LUNC and probably the new LUNA

ItsAMeMadio

LUNA Will have collapsed by then with LUNC rising from the ashes like “Morning Wood”

Electronic-Tonight16

Its gotta be LUNA/LUNC/UST. I STILL get people making disgusting comments to me because at some point I may have said I have money in UST. Honestly its kind of sick what some people will say here.

futurenotion

I think it’s SafeMoon, SOL, and LUNA. SafeMoon put a 100% tax on v1 to get people to migrate to v2. SOL, because of way too VC backed. LUNA, because it just collapsed and Do Kwon just fleeing. I think ONE is also included here.

Fresh-Chemical-9084

Solana LUNA

TarkovReddit0r

LUNA for being a failure SOLANA for not being close to it

TarkovReddit0r

LUNA more popular hate SAFEMOON more overall hate

KilzzoneXD

I'm splitting between LUNA and safemoon

brainpower11

I think LUNA beats every other one tbh

surrender_the_juice

LUNA after recent events.

CointestAdmin

#Terra Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by idevcg which won 1st place in the Terra Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Terra's entire value proposition is being propped up by its stablecoin UST, and in particular, the Anchor protocol, which has been giving out a pretty stable return of 19.5-20.5% APR so far. > > Because of how high its promise of returns is (and not on a shitcoin whose value fluctuates wildly, the value is pegged to USD for Anchor/UST), it managed to attract a huge amount of capital into the ecosystem. > > But how would Terra fare when Anchor can no longer offer such a high rate of return, or worse, if the entire system collapses? > > After all, UST is just an algorithmic stablecoin; there's nothing special about it that cannot be replicated by other platforms and smart contracts. If there was no risk, why don't all the other L1s also create a similar system to Anchor UST and offer 20% APR? > > In reality, Anchor UST currently works almost like a sort of a ponzi. > > [to quote](https://twitter.com/0xhamz/status/1506372692005593090?s=21): > > When UST per LUNA is less than LUNA mkt price -- the system is insolvent > > UST liabilities equate to 45% of the current circulating LUNA market cap > > With rapid UST adoption --- this rising floor is a vector of vulnerability. > > UST are deposits that are redeemable for LUNA tokens > > The LUNA ecosystem pays depositors to come into the ecosystem > > LUNA is paying depositors the 19.5% APY on Anchor > > But depositors are not creating organic value for LUNA > > LUNA benefits from UST adoption via swap and other usage fees > > LUNA has a 6.7% stake rate > > Borrow at 19.5% and return 6.7% won't last forever > > > /quote > > edit: Additionally, Terra is planning to buy over 10 billion dollars of bitcoin; where will those funds come from? Will they be forced to sell Terra Luna to fund this purchase? If so, what effect will that sell pressure have on the price of Luna? ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2mzj/top_10_terra_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive##wiki_terra.28luna.29) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

Terra(LUNA) {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

CointestAdmin

#Terra Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by idevcg which won 1st place in the Terra Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Terra's entire value proposition is being propped up by its stablecoin UST, and in particular, the Anchor protocol, which has been giving out a pretty stable return of 19.5-20.5% APR so far. > > Because of how high its promise of returns is (and not on a shitcoin whose value fluctuates wildly, the value is pegged to USD for Anchor/UST), it managed to attract a huge amount of capital into the ecosystem. > > But how would Terra fare when Anchor can no longer offer such a high rate of return, or worse, if the entire system collapses? > > After all, UST is just an algorithmic stablecoin; there's nothing special about it that cannot be replicated by other platforms and smart contracts. If there was no risk, why don't all the other L1s also create a similar system to Anchor UST and offer 20% APR? > > In reality, Anchor UST currently works almost like a sort of a ponzi. > > [to quote](https://twitter.com/0xhamz/status/1506372692005593090?s=21): > > When UST per LUNA is less than LUNA mkt price -- the system is insolvent > > UST liabilities equate to 45% of the current circulating LUNA market cap > > With rapid UST adoption --- this rising floor is a vector of vulnerability. > > UST are deposits that are redeemable for LUNA tokens > > The LUNA ecosystem pays depositors to come into the ecosystem > > LUNA is paying depositors the 19.5% APY on Anchor > > But depositors are not creating organic value for LUNA > > LUNA benefits from UST adoption via swap and other usage fees > > LUNA has a 6.7% stake rate > > Borrow at 19.5% and return 6.7% won't last forever > > > /quote > > edit: Additionally, Terra is planning to buy over 10 billion dollars of bitcoin; where will those funds come from? Will they be forced to sell Terra Luna to fund this purchase? If so, what effect will that sell pressure have on the price of Luna? ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2mzj/top_10_terra_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive##wiki_terra.28luna.29) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

Terra(LUNA) {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

xiwefe2

LUNA will not survive (i hope) and a lot of other top names will fade away like the ones in 2017..I really hope that in the future we will be seeing new projects startup thru a transparent protocol like Angelblock, in that way it would end the crypto era of greddy VC's

milonuttigrain

Rolling back one year and there were a shit tons of articles praising LUNA “legit” to the moon

gdj11

Honestly, Luna Classic or LUNC is being taken over by the community. LUNA is still associated with the fugitive Do Kwon and is an obvious cash grab and just needs to go away, but LUNC is actually pretty interesting especially with Binance even getting on board with the burn.

pm_me_your_pooptube

Any off branch of LUNA

MinimalGravitas

I am 99% sure that this account is controlled by a bot, there seems to be zero understanding of any of the nouns that are being used, it seems to be just putting random crypto words into a grammatically acceptable order to create comments... But on the slim chance that you are a human: > The stability of the UST-LUNA structure itself is comparable to Bitcoin or Ethereum. Bitcoin's stability is based on the predictability of future issuance as payment for security and a rigid fixed supply. Ethereum's stability is based on regular issuance balanced with dynamically adjusted deflationary pressure from the burning of base fees. Terra/Luna's 'stability' was based on 'money printer go brrrr' balanced against the hope that no one would notice their obviously unsustainable model. Anchor was part of the problem, but it was also the only reason that anyone was tempted to use the stupid UST idiocy in the first place. People thought that 19.5% interest was worth the risk of the whole system collapsing, basically just because the risks were not made clear to investors by the project team, and anyone who tried to warn people about it was labled as 'FUD' and discounted. https://np.reddit.com/r/defi/comments/tyidni/comment/i3tqpvu/?context=3 https://np.reddit.com/r/defi/comments/u79j3f/comment/i5dgilx/?context=3 > There is only that difference. If you really are an economist and can't see the difference between Terra/Luna and chains like Bitcoin and Ethereum (or in fact anything that isn't an algorithmic stablecoin), then being an economist isn't helping you understand crypto at all.

gotificial

In my opinion, except for the anchor protocol, the UST-RUNA interworking was excellent. I didn't like it at first either. As an economist, I am a person who understands the hyperinflation and the speculative demand. Others, especially economics majors, were concerned about the possibility of this happening, and so was I, but the phenomena that appeared in real life were irrelevant to them. So I changed my earlier view. The Terra system collapsed only because of the anchor protocol. If phenomena such as hyperinflation or speculative demand are dangerous, this is the same for Bitcoin and Ethereum. If overall trust collapses, Bitcoin could also fall below a cent in a week. The stability of the UST-LUNA structure itself is comparable to Bitcoin or Ethereum. However, there are no self-destructive elements, such as anchor protocol, in Bitcoin or Ethereum. There is only that difference.

MaximumSandwich5

> Joe's life changes when he is chosen to be the guinea pig for a secret hibernation experiment. Did you buy LUNA?

CointestAdmin

#Terra Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by idevcg which won 1st place in the Terra Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Terra's entire value proposition is being propped up by its stablecoin UST, and in particular, the Anchor protocol, which has been giving out a pretty stable return of 19.5-20.5% APR so far. > > Because of how high its promise of returns is (and not on a shitcoin whose value fluctuates wildly, the value is pegged to USD for Anchor/UST), it managed to attract a huge amount of capital into the ecosystem. > > But how would Terra fare when Anchor can no longer offer such a high rate of return, or worse, if the entire system collapses? > > After all, UST is just an algorithmic stablecoin; there's nothing special about it that cannot be replicated by other platforms and smart contracts. If there was no risk, why don't all the other L1s also create a similar system to Anchor UST and offer 20% APR? > > In reality, Anchor UST currently works almost like a sort of a ponzi. > > [to quote](https://twitter.com/0xhamz/status/1506372692005593090?s=21): > > When UST per LUNA is less than LUNA mkt price -- the system is insolvent > > UST liabilities equate to 45% of the current circulating LUNA market cap > > With rapid UST adoption --- this rising floor is a vector of vulnerability. > > UST are deposits that are redeemable for LUNA tokens > > The LUNA ecosystem pays depositors to come into the ecosystem > > LUNA is paying depositors the 19.5% APY on Anchor > > But depositors are not creating organic value for LUNA > > LUNA benefits from UST adoption via swap and other usage fees > > LUNA has a 6.7% stake rate > > Borrow at 19.5% and return 6.7% won't last forever > > > /quote > > edit: Additionally, Terra is planning to buy over 10 billion dollars of bitcoin; where will those funds come from? Will they be forced to sell Terra Luna to fund this purchase? If so, what effect will that sell pressure have on the price of Luna? ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2mzj/top_10_terra_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive##wiki_terra.28luna.29) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

Terra(LUNA) {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

UJ_Reddit

I don’t get the point of the limit at all. We vote with upvotes and downvotes already. If LUNA or whatever has major news, what’s the harm of the front page has a few angles on it?

Spartan3123

Algo stable coins had a history of collapsing - like literally every single one. Many people would have told you LUNA and UST are dodgy and anchor protocol yields are unrealistic and this whole thing would collapse in a bear market - yet many 'educated' investors went all in on LUNA. Now when this project collapsed I have seen plenty of hatred aimed at Do Kwon and TerraLabs - vague death threats calls for arrest. Maybe he did break some SK securities law, I am not saying he is innocent. But the level of victim blaming given to a widowed 50 year old woman who was: >I am very cautious financially Meaning this person probably held fiat in her bank account her entire life - no idea about stocks, ETFs ect and investing Losses her money while in vulnerable state is unbelievable, while Luna investors don't get any blame in r cc and all the hatred is directed at Do Kwon

CointestAdmin

#Terra Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by idevcg which won 1st place in the Terra Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > Terra's entire value proposition is being propped up by its stablecoin UST, and in particular, the Anchor protocol, which has been giving out a pretty stable return of 19.5-20.5% APR so far. > > Because of how high its promise of returns is (and not on a shitcoin whose value fluctuates wildly, the value is pegged to USD for Anchor/UST), it managed to attract a huge amount of capital into the ecosystem. > > But how would Terra fare when Anchor can no longer offer such a high rate of return, or worse, if the entire system collapses? > > After all, UST is just an algorithmic stablecoin; there's nothing special about it that cannot be replicated by other platforms and smart contracts. If there was no risk, why don't all the other L1s also create a similar system to Anchor UST and offer 20% APR? > > In reality, Anchor UST currently works almost like a sort of a ponzi. > > [to quote](https://twitter.com/0xhamz/status/1506372692005593090?s=21): > > When UST per LUNA is less than LUNA mkt price -- the system is insolvent > > UST liabilities equate to 45% of the current circulating LUNA market cap > > With rapid UST adoption --- this rising floor is a vector of vulnerability. > > UST are deposits that are redeemable for LUNA tokens > > The LUNA ecosystem pays depositors to come into the ecosystem > > LUNA is paying depositors the 19.5% APY on Anchor > > But depositors are not creating organic value for LUNA > > LUNA benefits from UST adoption via swap and other usage fees > > LUNA has a 6.7% stake rate > > Borrow at 19.5% and return 6.7% won't last forever > > > /quote > > edit: Additionally, Terra is planning to buy over 10 billion dollars of bitcoin; where will those funds come from? Will they be forced to sell Terra Luna to fund this purchase? If so, what effect will that sell pressure have on the price of Luna? ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2mzj/top_10_terra_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive##wiki_terra.28luna.29) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xta3ma/daily_general_discussion_october_2_2022_gmt0/).

CointestAdmin

Terra(LUNA) {{pros}} & {{cons}} and related info are in the collapsed comments below. Pros and cons will change for every new post.

Mr_Bob_Ferguson

Hi landlord, will you accept LUNA as payment? My rent this week will be the equivalent of either $75,000 or $3.

LnGrrrR

Well, LUNA is a good example why...

robomartin

You’d need an oracle to input the population data, which is a big central point of failure. But in a perfect world, then yeah it sounds like an interesting experiment to me. The point is to have a monetary policy based on set rules we all know in advance and not based on a central bank pulling levers. I guess just implement a percentage burn on transactions in the event of a population decline? Doesn’t sound any worse than Terra LUNA, or Ampleforth to me

archer4364

What about the guy shorting LUNA at $100, I remember that post

FldLima

Shit. Just make sure you put some LUNA into that at least.

0xCozzi

A lot of people bought LUNA because of the names ties to the moon, so imagine what could happen if we got Binance or Coinbase listing moons, once your average joe can buy it and it’s been listed on a major exchange do you think it’ll live up to its name and moon?

LUNCmoneymaker

Im happy to be a LUNAtic. Never said that before. if LUNA can recover even to the level of 0.10 0.20 0.30 lots of people will be very happy they invested.

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Prysm... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Prysm... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

KateR_H0l1day

Why, it’s gone up to its ATH and dropped again like virtually every coin, you’d have been a bigger fool holding LUNA and there coin. People really need to take a good look at things when investing, it’s held up much better than many other so called good coins over 12 months including BTC and ETH. This shitcoin mantra is just foolish nonsense by the mob and it’s not analyzing the market sentiment. Take the mob and knee jerk mentality out of investing, look at sentiment and the underlying potential value What happens from here as they start use cases for gaming for example, lot of potential upside! However, I agree that selling any coin is one of the most difficult decisions to make, whether it’s going up or down, taking profits is not easy!! Sounds like it is but I personally don’t think it is.

CointestAdmin

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Cosmos Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Cosmos Con Argument > > - *Disclaimer: ATOM currently makes up ~1-2% of my portfolio. Including Cosmos related projects like OSMO, JUNO, etc. or projects built on Tendermint like BNB, LUNA, CRO, then it's more like 5%.* > > - While I wrote about the benefits of a [hub and spoke model](https://v1.cosmos.network/images/intro/06-architecture.svg) in the [Cosmos Pro thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yl2/coin_inquiries_round_cosmos_proarguments_november/), different development models/architecture have different tradeoffs (e.g., [Cathedral vs. Bazaar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar), [empire vs nation states](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution), [different blockchain types](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain#Types), or even [DAGs](https://np.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_dag)). > > - **TLDR**: The overarching focus of Cosmos is on interoperability - but a priority on connecting everything together doesn't necessarily benefit the development or utility of ATOM itself. It's natural for developers to disagree on their vision for a decentralized, open source project and some may even regard that as a positive. But infighting is bad for optics and there are certain aspects of ATOM's tokenomics that may limit its value within the 'Internet of Blockchains'. > > ##Team entropy > > - In February 2020, fighting within the Cosmos team lead to a [shakeup of talent](https://decrypt.co/19769/zaki-manian-cosmos-number-two-resigns) and a [restructuring of the companies involved in developing the project](https://messari.io/article/amid-multiple-departures-cosmos-core-contributor-tendermint-inc-restructures-the-company). > > - Former Tendermint director [Zaki Manian accused founder Jae Kwon of neglecting Cosmos by instead working on a side project, Virgo](https://decrypt.co/18324/tendermint-director-accuses-cosmos-founder-of-evading-responsibility). > > - Some (including Jae), regarded the 'break up' as a [move towards decentralization](https://gist.github.com/jaekwon/7cb869769aecf9c86bfd1b9e61c488df). > > - Zaki (in a now deleted tweet) [disagreed with the decentralization claim and pointed to delays in development, turnover and under-resourcing of the Cosmos project](https://web.archive.org/web/20200207134418/https://twitter.com/zmanian/status/1224384772677390336). Others [reported a toxic environment for engineers](https://twitter.com/jessysaurusrex/status/1224417773620588545). > > - Amidst this backdrop of 'he said, she said' the fact is that core developers like to work on their own pet projects: > > - I'm not sure if Virgo is still a thing, but [Jae Kwon stepped down to work on a Gno project](https://twitter.com/jaekwon/status/1360867477572493313?s=28). Zaki went on to [work on Iqlusion and Sommelier](https://www.linkedin.com/in/zmanian/) while Sunny Aggarwal [started Osmosis and Sikka](https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunnya97/). > > > > ##Project entropy > > - The [community tends to dismiss devs fighting as FUD](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/r2zhz0/its_a_fud_hit_piece_and_makes_me_sick/). And one could argue that developers shifting to work on other projects is a 'value add' to the ecosystem rather than a detriment to work on Cosmos. > > - I'm not so sure - and I think a related example is actually the main products these teams worked on, [Cosmos SDK](https://v1.cosmos.network/sdk) and [Tendermint](https://academy.binance.com/en/articles/tendermint-explained). > > - In the Pro thread I highlighted how many popular projects such as BNB, CRO and LUNA have been built using these tools. > > - Many of those coins now [have a higher marketcap than ATOM - but, beyond displaying their total value](https://cosmos-cap.com/) under one umbrella there isn't a 'trickle down effect' whereby growth in CRO impacts the value of ATOM. > > - This is a function of the Cosmos design decision to [retain the sovereignty of each connecting chain](https://juliankoh.medium.com/5-differences-between-cosmos-polkadot-67f09535594b). Unlike Polkadot or ETH, a rising tide in the Cosmos ecosystem *doesn't necessarily* lift all boats: > > - Polkadot parachains use DOT's security. Ethereum tokens use ETH as gas. But projects in the Cosmos ecosystem are not 'locked in' to using ATOM. > > - [Transactions fees on the Cosmos Hub do not necessarily need to be paid in ATOM](https://cryptoseq.medium.com/cosmos-atom-token-and-the-commonly-misunderstood-staking-tokens-part-three-958c295c5b78). > > - In the absence of a [shared security model](https://blog.cosmos.network/interchain-security-is-coming-to-the-cosmos-hub-f144c45fb035), all the [connected zones and hubs today](https://mapofzones.com/?period=720&testnet=false&tableOrderBy=totalIbcTxs&tableOrderSort=desc) continue to use their own native tokens rather than enhancing the value of ATOM. So, to go back to developer projects, [Osmosis can post growing liquidity and transaction volume](https://info.osmosis.zone/) but the DEX usage doesn't directly benefit ATOM. > > - So while the Cosmos Hub has been crucial to promoting interoperability, in the future it might not remain the economic center of an 'Internet of Blockchains' but instead get supplanted by one of its 'children'. > > - Jae Kwon spoke to this point years ago, [indicating his support for competition between hubs rather than locking users into Cosmos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OAulsLeDI0&t=749s). > > - And the centrality of ATOM seems to be the subtext of recent [dev arguments over 'Cosmos' nomenclature](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/scye0t/sunnys_constant_attacks_on_the_cosmos_hub/), with [calls to rebrand](https://twitter.com/sunnya97/status/1486031900925784066). > > - Where Cosmos *does* lock in users is with staking: > > - [ATOM uses a high token inflation rate to ensure a high staking participation. Users who don't stake their ATOM get essentially penalized by inflation, as the value of their holdings is diluted over time](https://medium.com/swlh/what-are-the-flaws-of-the-cosmos-and-how-to-tackle-them-6c114f4f3bd7). > > - This is obviously not beneficial for holders of smaller stacks and/or users who want to retain liquidity without being locked in to the 21-day unbonding period. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yls/coin_inquiries_round_cosmos_conarguments_november/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

pbjclimbing

May Cosmos 2.0 be nothing like LUNA2.

FldLima

my top 5 words are: 1 - BitBoy 2 - Celcius 3 - Voyager 4 - LUNA 5 - FED

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Prysm... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Prysm... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Cosmos Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 1st place in the Cosmos Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Cosmos Con Argument > > - *Disclaimer: ATOM currently makes up ~1-2% of my portfolio. Including Cosmos related projects like OSMO, JUNO, etc. or projects built on Tendermint like BNB, LUNA, CRO, then it's more like 5%.* > > - While I wrote about the benefits of a [hub and spoke model](https://v1.cosmos.network/images/intro/06-architecture.svg) in the [Cosmos Pro thread](https://np.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yl2/coin_inquiries_round_cosmos_proarguments_november/), different development models/architecture have different tradeoffs (e.g., [Cathedral vs. Bazaar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar), [empire vs nation states](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution), [different blockchain types](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockchain#Types), or even [DAGs](https://np.reddit.com/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_dag)). > > - **TLDR**: The overarching focus of Cosmos is on interoperability - but a priority on connecting everything together doesn't necessarily benefit the development or utility of ATOM itself. It's natural for developers to disagree on their vision for a decentralized, open source project and some may even regard that as a positive. But infighting is bad for optics and there are certain aspects of ATOM's tokenomics that may limit its value within the 'Internet of Blockchains'. > > ##Team entropy > > - In February 2020, fighting within the Cosmos team lead to a [shakeup of talent](https://decrypt.co/19769/zaki-manian-cosmos-number-two-resigns) and a [restructuring of the companies involved in developing the project](https://messari.io/article/amid-multiple-departures-cosmos-core-contributor-tendermint-inc-restructures-the-company). > > - Former Tendermint director [Zaki Manian accused founder Jae Kwon of neglecting Cosmos by instead working on a side project, Virgo](https://decrypt.co/18324/tendermint-director-accuses-cosmos-founder-of-evading-responsibility). > > - Some (including Jae), regarded the 'break up' as a [move towards decentralization](https://gist.github.com/jaekwon/7cb869769aecf9c86bfd1b9e61c488df). > > - Zaki (in a now deleted tweet) [disagreed with the decentralization claim and pointed to delays in development, turnover and under-resourcing of the Cosmos project](https://web.archive.org/web/20200207134418/https://twitter.com/zmanian/status/1224384772677390336). Others [reported a toxic environment for engineers](https://twitter.com/jessysaurusrex/status/1224417773620588545). > > - Amidst this backdrop of 'he said, she said' the fact is that core developers like to work on their own pet projects: > > - I'm not sure if Virgo is still a thing, but [Jae Kwon stepped down to work on a Gno project](https://twitter.com/jaekwon/status/1360867477572493313?s=28). Zaki went on to [work on Iqlusion and Sommelier](https://www.linkedin.com/in/zmanian/) while Sunny Aggarwal [started Osmosis and Sikka](https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunnya97/). > > > > ##Project entropy > > - The [community tends to dismiss devs fighting as FUD](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/r2zhz0/its_a_fud_hit_piece_and_makes_me_sick/). And one could argue that developers shifting to work on other projects is a 'value add' to the ecosystem rather than a detriment to work on Cosmos. > > - I'm not so sure - and I think a related example is actually the main products these teams worked on, [Cosmos SDK](https://v1.cosmos.network/sdk) and [Tendermint](https://academy.binance.com/en/articles/tendermint-explained). > > - In the Pro thread I highlighted how many popular projects such as BNB, CRO and LUNA have been built using these tools. > > - Many of those coins now [have a higher marketcap than ATOM - but, beyond displaying their total value](https://cosmos-cap.com/) under one umbrella there isn't a 'trickle down effect' whereby growth in CRO impacts the value of ATOM. > > - This is a function of the Cosmos design decision to [retain the sovereignty of each connecting chain](https://juliankoh.medium.com/5-differences-between-cosmos-polkadot-67f09535594b). Unlike Polkadot or ETH, a rising tide in the Cosmos ecosystem *doesn't necessarily* lift all boats: > > - Polkadot parachains use DOT's security. Ethereum tokens use ETH as gas. But projects in the Cosmos ecosystem are not 'locked in' to using ATOM. > > - [Transactions fees on the Cosmos Hub do not necessarily need to be paid in ATOM](https://cryptoseq.medium.com/cosmos-atom-token-and-the-commonly-misunderstood-staking-tokens-part-three-958c295c5b78). > > - In the absence of a [shared security model](https://blog.cosmos.network/interchain-security-is-coming-to-the-cosmos-hub-f144c45fb035), all the [connected zones and hubs today](https://mapofzones.com/?period=720&testnet=false&tableOrderBy=totalIbcTxs&tableOrderSort=desc) continue to use their own native tokens rather than enhancing the value of ATOM. So, to go back to developer projects, [Osmosis can post growing liquidity and transaction volume](https://info.osmosis.zone/) but the DEX usage doesn't directly benefit ATOM. > > - So while the Cosmos Hub has been crucial to promoting interoperability, in the future it might not remain the economic center of an 'Internet of Blockchains' but instead get supplanted by one of its 'children'. > > - Jae Kwon spoke to this point years ago, [indicating his support for competition between hubs rather than locking users into Cosmos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OAulsLeDI0&t=749s). > > - And the centrality of ATOM seems to be the subtext of recent [dev arguments over 'Cosmos' nomenclature](https://np.reddit.com/r/cosmosnetwork/comments/scye0t/sunnys_constant_attacks_on_the_cosmos_hub/), with [calls to rebrand](https://twitter.com/sunnya97/status/1486031900925784066). > > - Where Cosmos *does* lock in users is with staking: > > - [ATOM uses a high token inflation rate to ensure a high staking participation. Users who don't stake their ATOM get essentially penalized by inflation, as the value of their holdings is diluted over time](https://medium.com/swlh/what-are-the-flaws-of-the-cosmos-and-how-to-tackle-them-6c114f4f3bd7). > > - This is obviously not beneficial for holders of smaller stacks and/or users who want to retain liquidity without being locked in to the 21-day unbonding period. ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/qk4yls/coin_inquiries_round_cosmos_conarguments_november/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Cosmos) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscochran/the-10k-audit-42c100dd32bb) for a start. > > - That being said, there are definitely some legitimate concerns about ETH to consider: > > ##Gotta pay the troll toll > > - As a protocol, Ethereum is an '[empire](https://www.finder.com.au\/brave-new-worlds-cosmos-blockchain-and-social-evolution)', a self-contained ecosystem with [composability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composability). > > - But the downside of a 'one chain to rule them all' approach is that it locks users into using the system and paying gas fees in ETH. > > - [EVM](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/glossary/ethereum-virtual-machine-evm) is certainly an industry standard, but [interoperability](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/why-is-interoperability-important-for-blockchain) may be crypto's future. As Do Kwon of LUNA said recently: "[Maybe it's a bad idea to stick all the applications into one global computer. Maybe it just makes sense to have a multi-chain future.](https://twitter.com/MessariCrypto/status/1439969124550119431)" Vitalik agrees, [but differentiates between a *multi-chain* vs. a *cross-chain* future](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/rwojtk/ama_we_are_the_efs_research_team_pt_7_07_january/hrngyk8/). > > - We all know [gas fees](https://www.gasprice.io/) on ETH are a pain in the ass. > - A lot of complaints about gas are misguided or uninformed, not understanding the [blockchain trilemma](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/blockchain-trilemma-decentralization-scalability-definition), mistakenly believing EIP1559 was supposed to lower gas fees (vs. [making them more predictable](https://pintail.xyz/posts/gas-market-analysis/)), or suggesting that ['gas fees are high, no one will use Ethereum'](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qikr7r/a_10k_eth_is_not_unrealistic_it_is_inevitable/hik9pet/). > > - High gas fees are in fact an indication of usage, of [people competing to use the chain](https://cryptofees.info/) - but this makes ETH a victim of its own success. > > - Paying [$20 for a token transfer or a Uniswap trade](https://etherscan.io/gastracker) is just not feasible for users with less capital - [they get priced out of using the chain](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qdi9i8/ive_tried_to_use_ethereum_1015_times_over_the/). > > - A really interesting article dives deeper into how "[people are entirely 'locked out' of their funds since it’d cost more in transaction fees to move the funds than the funds are actually worth.](https://medium.com/geekculture/value-fragmentation-8c8336f97cfd)" At the time of writing the total 'lost value' of ERC20s was $600M, which doesn't include ETH itself or NFTs. > > - Which brings us to competition and scalability: > > ##I drink your milkshake > > - Having prioritized decentralization and security at the expense of scalability, Ethereum is now [focused on rollups to meet demand](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html). > > - However, some users may not care about decentralization - they want to participate in DeFi, NFTs, etc. without paying an arm and a leg and will use BSC, SOL or [sidechains that don't inherit ETH's security](https://finematics.com/polygon-commit-chain-explained/). > - [Funds have migrated](https://ethhole.link/) over the past year from ETH [via bridges to L2s and other L1s](https://medium.com/etherscan-blog/ethereum-bridges-four-months-on-10ee36f889ae). > > - [TVL on L2s has boomed](https://l2beat.com/) as users flock to platforms with [cheaper transactions](https://l2fees.info/). Polygon for instance recently [flipped Ethereum in daily active addresses](https://www.coindesk.com/markets/2021/10/04/polygon-flips-ethereum-on-active-user-addresses/). > > - Ryan Selkis of Messari explained some concerns around these trends, suggesting that ETH's position will eroded by competitors and/or cannibalized by L2s: > > >["Decentralization (specifically political decentralization) and architectural soundness have become secondary properties at best and willfully ignored at worst in the mercenary dominant market of 2021. Not every new chain has tossed decentralization aside, but many have. Even if Ethereum manages to hold off its largest non-EVM rivals, it will leak value to the rollup chains it leans on for scalability. ETH sits at ~60% market cap dominance among Layer 1s. That will either fall below 50% in 2022, or its Layer 2 rollup tokens will eat into its growth. Maybe both.] (https://messari.io/pdf/messari-report-crypto-theses-for-2022.pdf)" > > ##Points of failure? > > - While I agree with [this article debunking the "ETH is centralized" mantra](https://medium.com/swlh/ethereum-isnt-decentralized-and-other-myths-ef2d132ee1fe), I think Ethereum still has some progress to make on the [**sociopolitical** and **architectural** aspects of decentralization](https://medium.com/@VitalikButerin/the-meaning-of-decentralization-a0c92b76a274#.355j5eg0v): > > - **Sociopolitics**: > > - Vitalik is a great steward of the project and has been [trying to remove himself as a single point of failure](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x1b_S6Qp2Q&t=656s). Anyone remember the [Vitalik death hoax?](https://fortune.com/2017/06/26/vitalik-death/) > > - But as a 'high priest', Vitalik's [vision](https://vitalik.ca/general/2021/12/06/endgame.html), [proposals](https://news.coincu.com/38718-vitalik-buterin-makes-proposal-eip-4488-to-lower-gas-fees-for-ethereum-layer-2-in-the-short-term/) and opinions have preeminent influence and there's no doubt [he remains the 'face' of Ethereum](https://time.com/6158182/vitalik-buterin-ethereum-profile/). The community looks to him for key communications like [roadmap updates](https://twitter.com/vitalikbuterin/status/1466411377107558402). > > * While [Ethereum development functions as an open source collaboration](https://media.consensys.net/ethereum-2-0s-latest-strides-forward-13f63652e57d?gi=30830fb85bbd), I think there are a lot of benefits to having a pseudonymous, 'absent' founder like with Bitcoin and Monero. > > - There are also some concerns in my mind about the role of Joe Lubin and ConsenSys in [privatizing what should arguably be public goods](https://saitoofficial.medium.com/the-infura-problem-fe68866484ec). > > - **Architecture**: > > * ConsenSys has been a huge player in [driving enterprise adoption](https://consensys.net/blog/news/consensys-acquires-jpm-quorum/) - but they also own [key Ethereum infrastructure like Infura and MetaMask](https://www.coindesk.com/business/2021/11/02/consensys-shareholders-readying-legal-action-over-share-valuation/). They're now being [audited for letting banks like JPMorgan Chase get a piece of the pie](https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/blockchain-company-consensys-faces-multi-billion-dollar-audit-as-shareholders-claim-board-breaches-fiduciary-duties---attributed-to-arthur-falls-301493433.html). > > - [Crypto Twitter](https://twitter.com/infura_io/status/1499446959827931175) seemed surprised to learn that MetaMask and Infura aren't actually permissionless [when users in some countries lost access](https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/136336/a-look-at-metamask-infura-opensea-and-the-countries-they-do-not-serve). > > - Bigger incidents like [Infura going down](https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/ethereums-infura-iating-outage-revives-decentralization-concerns) or the [Geth bug causing a chain split](https://decrypt.co/79597/ethereum-blockchain-splits-software-bug-network) highlight the Ethereum network's reliance on this infrastructure. > > > - Meanwhile client and hosting diversity remains an issue [(1)](https://mirror.xyz/jmcook.eth/S7ONEka_0RgtKTZ3-dakPmAHQNPvuj15nh0YGKPFriA) [(2)](https://clientdiversity.org/) as of writing: > > - On the mainnet (PoW): [>80% of nodes use Geth](https://www.ethernodes.org/), while [~69% of nodes run on hosting services](https://www.ethernodes.org/network-types)([e.g. AWS](https://decrypt.co/44321/70-of-ethereum-nodes-are-hosted-on-centralized-services)). > > - On the beacon chain (PoS): ~2/3 of validators use Prysm... ***** Would you like to learn more? [Click here](/r/CointestOfficial/comments/ru2luf/top_10_ethereum_conarguments_january_2022/) to be taken to the original topic-thread or you can scan through the [Cointest archive](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_archive#wiki_Ethereum) to find arguments on this topic in other rounds. Since this is a con-argument, what could be a better time to promote the Skeptics Discussion thread? You can find the latest thread [here](/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/xsqkga/monthly_optimists_discussion_october_2022/).

CointestAdmin

#Ethereum Con-Arguments Below is an argument written by MrMoustacheMan which won 2nd place in the Ethereum Con-Arguments topic for a prior [Cointest](/r/CointestOfficial/wiki/cointest_policy) round. > #Ethereum Con Argument > > - *Disclosure: I currently hold a position in ETH, ~53% of my current portfolio value* > - Tweaking my argument from [the last round](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/pz4vav/rcc_cointest_top_10_ethereum_conarguments_october/hq6gy23/) > - ETH has been the subject of a lot of criticism over the years and the same points still seem to get recycled ([premine/founders](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/owypvc/my_personal_investigation_into_ethereum_uncovers/), [DAO rollback](https://www.gemini.com/cryptopedia/the-dao-hack-makerdao), [scalability/centralization](https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/qw2e32/eth_is_bad_and_i_am_tired_of_pretending_its_not/hl0bqo9/), [inflation/supply](https://www.theheldreport.com/p/bitcoin-vs-ethereum)). There are a ton of rebuttals online for the most common Con arguments - [see here](https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/najp2c/addressing_common_criticisms_about_ethereum/) and [here](https://medium.com/@adamscoch